EP 29: Mule Deer with Jason Carter on the Muley Freak Podcast

Alright everybody, welcome to another podcast on the Muley Freak Podcast. Jason Carter has joined us today, a true Muley Freak. And that's who we like to get on this show, is guys who know how to get it done and have done it for a long time. So welcome Jason, we're glad to have you on the show. Yeah, thanks Zach, I appreciate it. Thanks for the invite. Yeah, of course. Of course, like usual, just start off with introductions and tell us whatever you want to about yourself and what you do for work and kind of a history of you and your hunting background. Okay, yeah, well, obviously Jason Carter, you know, I'm 40 something years old, low 40s. And, anyway, not to be exact or anything, but, anyway, yeah, I'm 42 years old, you know, hunted pretty much all my life. I grew up in a serious hunting environment, weren't always extreme trophy hunters per se.

You know, when I was young, I was always kind of into the big stuff, but, you know, my dad and back then, people didn't know what big stuff was. And so, it was just more or less, you know, 30 inch deer and six point bulls and things like that. So, anyway, we hunted aggressively and hunted out of state because he was a game warden. Okay, didn't know that. Yeah, he couldn't hunt the regular Utah seasons. So, we always had to look for stuff kind of outside the box and it forced him to hunt out of state if he wanted to hunt for himself. So, anyway, I just grew up. We grew up cruising the proclamations and dealing with all that and, you know, as I advanced, I was killed a buffalo when I was 15 and lion and deer and, you know, just all that. Just like a normal kid would if he could draw tags or the general season stuff. Hunted a little bit in Colorado and New Mexico and stuff.

Where'd you kill your bison? That was on the Henry Mountains. Awesome. I've been down there during that hunt. That's a cool hunt. It's changed a bit. There's actually decent numbers of bison there now. I mean, back then it was, you know, it was tough. It was pretty scarce. When we got, we showed up, the guys on the season before us, I mean, a lot of them went home empty-handed and couldn't find any bison. So, anyway, but it was, yeah, it was good. So, I got to experience a lot of cool things early in life, you know, with just having a family that was pretty serious into it. So, anyway, went to college at Utah State up there in Logan, graduated college, and then my dad started a business about a year before I graduated, the Hunt and Fool magazine. So, anyway, we didn't call it the Hunt and Fool. Well, we just called it Newsletter. And back then, it was stapled in the corner.

And we just dealt with that, grew the business. And, anyway, fast forward today, I dealt with that for a lot of years and since he sold the business. And then now I'm at Epic Outdoors. It's me and a couple of good friends of mine, several good guys that, you know, we've worked together for quite a few years. And we own the business and basically publish a monthly publication from December through June and then bi-monthly after that. And talk about all the Western state opportunities and sell tags, sell hunts, just anything to do with Western big game in Western U.S., Canada, Alaska, and Mexico. Great. Dealt with Under Armour, you know, a little bit. We're sponsored by them, obviously. Did the Ridge Reaper TV show with them for a while. And then Ridge Reaper, it's changing to where they're moving it to YouTube. Continue to work with Under Armour and do this as well. Great.

Yeah, that's a great show. And so you're saying it's moving to YouTube, same everything, same hunters, same everything, just now it's going to be online. Yeah, it'll be the same hunters, but then they're adding. YouTube gives them the opportunity to bring on, you know, Waterfowl and Women's, a lot of different divisions. And there's no parameters. There's no, I mean, they get to dictate how many episodes, how long the episodes are. Yeah. You know, all that instead of being told, you know, these are your episodes and the length and whatnot. So anyway, it gives them a lot of ability to change it up a little bit. Yeah. And yeah, so we're all still a part of it. But anyway, that's still, it's still in the development phase on that change and all that. Sure. Well, that'd be good to see. Okay. And what's your website for Epic Outdoors? It's just epicoutdoors.com.

Guys can email me at Jason at epicoutdoors.com or call in 435-263-0777. Okay. But they can easily find us on the web. And you do all Western states? Yeah, pretty much all Western states. You know, even some of the states may be not so exciting for mule deer hunters, such as Washington or California or things like that. But we still talk about some of those. Washington, we don't as much. We do, you know, sheep, goat, moose, things like that. But anyway, yeah, we do all Western states for the most part. Okay. Good to know. Yeah, I know that the Washington hunters don't want anyone to know that they have mule deer there. I know they don't. And they've got some mule ones. There's no question about it. So, anyway. Okay. Well, we want to move into mule deer and pick your brain about the subject. I mean, you've been guiding and hunting for how long? Yeah.

Well, I mean, I've been hunting deer for, you know, whatever, 25, you know, 30 years. And always, always never wanted to shoot a deer less than a four-point. My first deer was a four-point. And I just always kind of that mentality. Just really wanted to mature, you know, the most mature deer you could find. I guess that's what you could call it. A trophy hunter, I guess, to a degree. But mostly it was just, you know, killing an older age-class animal. Yeah, yeah. And you've done pretty well at that throughout your career.

And, excuse me, the listeners should really do themselves a favor and just search your name under, like, iTunes and listen to your other podcasts, especially the Cody Rich Outdoors podcast. I think that that thing is full of great mule deer knowledge. And I don't necessarily want to repeat what you and Cody talked about, but I say that so that people can go back and listen because I thought it was so good. And I want to maybe expound upon some of the items you had already talked about in that podcast. You had gone through and given some advice about how people can, you know, find big deer and stuff like that. But I kind of wanted to just take that and dig a little deeper and talk with you about how do you find giant mule deer, and specifically in general season units. Yeah. Well, you know, it's interesting. Like, pretty much the technique's the same.

It doesn't matter if it's limited entry or not. And for me, it's just a lot of time, a lot of time and energy. Like, last night I was going. Tonight, if we weren't doing a podcast, I'd be out there. And I'm just constantly learning new stuff, even things that I've grown up around or feel like I've spent, you know, the better part of 15 years learning or 17 years or 20 years. I'm just still out, still learning new stuff. I'm learning stuff all the time. And if I wasn't learning it, I think I'd get bored a bit. Sure. But anyway, there's just – it's pretty much the same. And I think, actually, in general season units, you can find maybe even bigger deer. Like, the genetics here in southern Utah are phenomenal. Of course, Idaho, you know, is amazing, and you guys know that. But, you know, it's one of those things that when they're general, people don't assume it's that good.

And so you don't have the teams of hunters and guides out there. You don't have people spending, you know, 5, 10, 15, 20 grand on a tag. And then because they spent that much on a tag, they need to spend X amount on an outfitter to make good on that tag and to not face that tag, you know. Or same thing with draw. Like, if you were to sit here and wait for the Henrys or Poncegon or, you know, even like your unit's 45 up there, some different things. I mean, you know, you want to do the best you can do, and you're going to hire the best guys, and they're going to spend an immense amount of time. You can come down on general season units in any state that has general season units, spend the time, and come up with some big deer. And a lot of these guys are just hunting the weekends, you know. They're just – they like to go on their family hunts, and maybe they don't take it as serious

because they can do it each year. And you don't really – it's kind of one of those things you don't know what you've got until it's gone. I mean, we used to be able to hunt Arizona Strip, 13A archery, over-the-counter. All of a sudden, when they took it away, crap, you know, that's not so great. And then we know when you look at the non-resident draw, it's taking 18 points kind of thing. So anyway, it's interesting how things change. We take it for granted. We don't hunt them as hard as we could, you know. Well, that gives the guys, you know, like you guys, and there's other guys down here in southern Utah, I know that they work hard and they're hunting giants. And they don't talk about it a lot because, yeah, you can do it each year if they're careful with it. And so anyway, the theory – all of the tactics are the same. I mean, if you like to glass, then go glass.

I mean, if you like to run trail cameras and glass, do both of them. I mean, it's everybody kind of has their own style. They like high country, low country, desert, whatever it is. And if you can find that and you're fortunate enough to live close to where there's good deer, where you can spend an immense amount of time and you're married to the right person and have the right family and, you know, that allows you to do some of those things and you get some of these variables in your core, then you can make it happen. It's not going to happen every year, but you can definitely stack the odds. I just think a lot of it is guys that have the confidence to do it so they spend the time to do it and not think they're out there wasting their time. If you think you're wasting your time, you're not going to give it any kind of effort at all. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, one thing that I've heard you say is pay your dues, put the time in, and keep your head up. That's essentially what you just said there in those last couple minutes. And I totally agree. It's all about confidence. You know, in Utah, when did they go to the 30 units? Just a couple years ago, right? Not very long ago. And I – so I live in Utah, and I grew up hunting when it was the five areas. Yeah. Everybody tried to go to the south. Or if you had a northern Utah tag, everyone would go to a certain area. When they split it to 30 areas, it was like you had to go and find new places to hunt. And when you did, then you had a much smaller area to focus on. And I think that that has actually increased people's confidence because they've seen, you know what, there's deer everywhere. And there are big bucks in every unit.

And so that's kind of just repeating what you said is you just have to have the confidence. You have to put in the time and, you know, glass the hills, put in the work. And you're going to find those deer because they're pretty widespread. And then, you know, just finding the giants. What – do you have a process that you go through to, like, go into an area? Yeah. And I know that if you hunt a certain area for consecutive years, you, you know, get through that learning curve of the area and where to find deer. But once you kind of nail that process – that part down, do you have a process that you follow each year to find that giant that you're looking for? Yeah. Yeah. I think – yeah, like, there's – I don't ever think of it. I don't think, like, this is my process or I don't write down an outline or anything.

It's just kind of, you know, who – I guess, you know, who I am as a hunter, I guess. It's too cool. Yeah, it's not. But if guys are trying to learn and think about it, I mean, I think there's things that can definitely help your success. You've got to hunt deer. Deer don't die, per se. Like, yeah, there's lion kill and there's predation and whatnot. But, you know, if you find three or four big deer, you know, in 2016, you should be able to find two or three of those deer minimum in 2017 or maybe all four of them are alive in 2017. And one's going to dip and one's going to grow and it depends on age class and maybe one of them, you know, isn't as healthy. It's just, you know, physical health and a lot of that has something to do with it. But it's hunting specific deer, hunting those same deer and not necessarily the same area.

So, like, I know a lot of guys that will – like, let's just take Southwest Desert, for example. I mean, a lot of guys may hunt the blonde, you know, and that's where our family hunts is the blonde. Okay, well, that's great. But, you know, sometimes the blonde doesn't have a big deer in it. Or sometimes, you know, Hamlin Valley, you know, there's a bigger deer outside of Hamlin Valley, maybe Pine Valley, maybe whatever. And so there's a lot of country. And so I don't ever confine myself. I want to know the entire unit. And so I never – each year I'm working the entire unit. And that can get exhausting and, you know, unless you have a specific deer in mind and you find him and whatnot. But you should still, in my opinion, have a backup deer. But I think a lot of guys will, you know, maybe even settle.

Like, let's say you're scouting in July and you find a 180 deer and you want to kill a 180-inch deer. And then that's great and they chill out and relax a little bit and take, you know, their guard down a little bit and maybe go out and do other things, go boating, go do whatever else they want to do, knowing they've got a 180 deer found or something. And so, you know, in my opinion, they're confining themselves to a 180-inch deer. And same thing, if you find a 200-inch deer, great. But I want to find 10 of them. I want to find everyone in the unit, you know. And so, even if I had a 230-inch deer found, like, I'm going to kind of keep tabs on him. But I want to find his brother, his dad. I want to find – and you just keep – like, you keep after it. It's not – you do it because you love it and you're just – and that's what you love to do. And you just keep after it.

And to me, it's boring even if a 230-inch deer are to go watch him for the entire month of July every other day, every third day. Like, it doesn't – I would rather be learning new stuff. Yeah. I'd rather find new deer. Maybe there's a 40-inch four-point. Maybe there's a – I don't know. And it's cool. Like, all deer are cool. Yeah. And they all teach you something. You know what I mean? And so – I do. I don't think it's a waste of time. Just because you've got a couple shooters found, it's not a waste of time to keep after it. And you keep learning and you expound upon that. It gives you more options for next year and all of those kind of things, you know. I do. Yeah. Yeah. And what you were saying about keep looking even if you found, you know, the buck that you want.

But because anything can happen on public land, especially these general reunits where, I mean, you could scout the whole summer. Case in point, last year I scouted the whole summer this one basin. Opening morning, I mean, I counted throughout that – well, opening day I counted throughout that day 10 different hunters up in that basin. And I didn't see them during the summer during the scouting. And, I mean, they busted all the bucks out of there and I didn't have a backup plan really. Oh. So that can ruin a hunt real quick if you don't have those backup plans. Yeah. Or maybe someone shoots your target buck and what are you going to do? Just throw the towel in? No. You're going to go hunt, right? Yeah. So it's the preparation part of hunting, it sounds like, that will really define your success because there's so much that could go wrong. Yeah.

I just think there's not enough – you can't do enough. I think it's a – if you want to, in my opinion, like guys that want to be successful year after year after year, a decade, two decades, their whole life, this is a labor of love. It's not something – and like I say, hunting means something to – it seems to mean something different to everybody. So it's okay to do that. It's okay to go enjoy these other things and enjoy life and experience all kinds of cool stuff and be with your families in other settings other than just hunting. Like all that's good. But I would say what separates trophy – some of the – we'll call them trophy hunters, but guys that live for it is they're very one-dimensional. You know, these guys, you know, and I'm not talking about myself. I am, but I'm not necessarily – there's a group of people.

There's a lot of people that are pretty serious hunters and every one of them is great in their own right and they've accomplished amazing things. And I look up to them and give you encouragement and whatnot. And so I just think there's – but one thing they all have in common is they're very one-dimensional. They're out there because they love it. They're not willing to settle for even – if they happen to find the best deer, they're not willing to accept that it's the best deer. They're going to keep looking as if they haven't found the best deer. And they're going to work their guts out and spend all the available time and energy and resources into doing that. And that's what sets them apart. And if people are just honest with themselves, they can just say, that's not me. I love hunting. It doesn't have much to me. And then it's okay.

They should be happy for the guys that are willing to do it because they're giving up a lot. They're giving up family time. They're giving up, like I say, boating or any other kind of – if people like to motorbike and whatever, just recreational things that people like to do. I have a huge amount of respect. It doesn't matter in a professional environment if a guy is a UFC fighter or whatever he is, a guy that's truly a professional and good at his game. I have a huge amount of respect for anybody in any sport because I know – I don't know firsthand, but I know I have a feeling what those guys give up and what their families give up for them to be able to do it. Yeah. And it's pretty immense. Yeah, and it's really cool to see people be successful, especially when they're one-dimensional.

And, you know, the time that they've put in has been rewarded and they've been paid off for their time spent. It's also cool to see people be successful if they're just weekend hunters or road hunters or whatever because it's about the experience, like you said. And if you like to hunt just once a year for family tradition, that's awesome. That's how I was raised, and that's why I love hunting is because all those memories created with family and being in the outdoors. And then there comes a time for every hunter where they're, you know, usually later in life or maybe sometimes early that people say, you know, I'm going to draw a line in the sand and I'm going to dedicate myself to being this type of hunter. And that could change throughout their life, but you're absolutely right. Everyone hunts for their own reasons, and there's nothing wrong with that at all.

And social media kind of gets the best of us in the industry with that, and everybody's comparing themselves with each other. And, you know, it's not about that. It's about making yourself better. That's kind of been a theme on this podcast, it seems. On almost every episode, we, you know, we talk about that. But I think, yeah, social media and why you should hunt for your own reasons. Well, I think, yeah, I think, so these podcasts have come about with social media, and that's why, you know, they kind of run, they kind of coincide a little bit. But I think what's cool about the podcast, and I listen to all your guys' podcasts, I think you're doing a great job, by the way. Thank you. And I listen to Cody Rich and Jay Scott and all these guys. And it's really cool. I mean, everybody has their own niche, and I think it's awesome.

But I think, you know, what's really cool is just learning people. And you get to spend some time with people. And that's what social media does as well. We get to meet. I get to follow you guys or see what you guys are doing and say, you know, and a multitude of people that I would otherwise never meet. I would otherwise never know except for whoever says hi at the expo here in Utah or one of the shows. And so there's some really cool things that come about from social media, and then there's some really not-so-great things. And some of that is, you know, the jealousies or feeling inadequate or whatnot. And really, I can understand it, but sometimes people – and it's going to happen no matter what industry it's in. It's not just hunters, you know. But I think sometimes people, you know, hunt for that photo on Instagram or something or on Facebook.

And really, you know, they would learn so much more. They'd be so much more effective if it wasn't, you know, I've got to do this so I can post this lion picture on this social media outlet so people know I'm out doing it. Just go do it. And if you're just really concerned about doing it and doing the best job you can, there's always time later in the year to throwback Thursdays or flashback Fridays or whatever to show people that you're out doing it and to showcase some of your successes. And we all revel in that. We all love to look at other people's successes. And it teaches us about other units and what's been killed and sheds that are found. And you know what I mean? And so, so much good comes from it. But, oh, there's going to be negative and everything. You know, I just got to kind of keep it, you know, chill. You guys got to stay grounded.

Yeah, not confuse yourself with the trophy, you know. Like, these deer, like, they're the heroes. I mean, it's pretty amazing, you know. So some of these deer can go through and where they live and what they can become. It's pretty amazing. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and even being in their home, in their bedroom, so to speak, when you're making a stock and getting within bow range, it's such a cool experience. And social media is, you know, you're able to somewhat share that with other people who haven't experienced it yet. Maybe they're striving to experience that because, like, my first encounter with an animal up really close and interacting with them was an elk because I rifled deer hunted, you know. So you don't necessarily have to get so close to them. But when I was bow hunting elk, you get so close to them, and it's so addicting, and you want to share that with people.

And I think a lot of people are trying to do that, and it's great. I mean, it's educational. And Eric this morning was saying, we go for hikes a couple times a week, and he was saying that he was driving back from Montana from a bear hunt. And so he had all these podcasts to listen to, and he never really indulged in podcasts. And he said, man, once you get fully involved with listening to podcasts, it really sparks something in you to want to learn more. Because there's so much good information and so many good people out there that are trying to educate and share that passion. And that's what I love about social media and podcasts is your ability to kind of escape the stresses of everyday life and experience the outdoors through speakers or headphones or whatnot. Yeah. Oh, yeah. No, I agree 100%. Podcasts are addicting. Like, I'm addicted to them, you know.

And a lot of it is, you know, I don't have to sit and find good enough internet connection to watch a YouTube video. My YouTube videos don't quite work right on my cell phone, you know, and half the time. And so it's just nice to be able to just sit and listen and run it through your, you know, system, your Bluetooth while you're driving or whatever. And you get to, you know, meet, basically meet people without obviously them knowing you met them. But get to get a feel for who people are and maybe your impression changes a little, you know. You know what I mean? People have a tendency to judge real quick and just say, you know, because he didn't say hi to me. He's an arrogant SOB or whatever. And really that's not any – it wasn't the case. Maybe a guy was busy that day. Maybe – I don't know. Maybe there's 100 things on his mind.

And so when you get to listen to somebody for a minute, you get to realize, crap, you know, they're not so bad. And, man, they do know a lot. And, oh, I never knew that story. And holy cow, they do spend a lot of time out there. And anyway, it teaches you a lot. It's cool. It does. I think it gets everybody familiar with each other without having to, you know, actually, you know, really know each other or live in the same town. Yeah. And it makes you want to hunt with them. You know, hunting with someone is like – I don't know. Once you hunt with someone, it's almost like you have – you experience things together that you don't experience with a lot of people. But it also reveals a lot about who they are and their characters. So I can see that going both ways where, yeah, I was glad I went hunting with him and, oh, man, I don't want to go hunting with him again. But –

I know there's stories out there where guys, you know, thought they knew somebody from Instagram or something and then they actually hunt with them and they're like, oh, never thought that was – it was there. I would never hunt with them again. They went home or whatever, you know. Yeah. And it's the hunt and the experience that brings all the hunters together. And we're all on the same team.

But, you know, one thing that people really love are hunting stories. And do you have a hunting story off the top of your head that you could tell us about that highlights some of the tactics that you employ when you're hunting giant deer? Well, I mean, oh, there's so many stories. But, man, maybe we'll tell a couple of them as we're talking here and there. But, like, you know, I think back on, like, from my first big deer. So my first big deer, real big deer, was back in 2003. And it wasn't my first 200-incher, but it was my first, you know, just a big deer. And anyway, I always wanted an 8x8 35-incher with triple-I guards. That's my thing. Just something big, you know. Yeah. And he's close. But it was one of those things where, you know, back in 2002, it was extreme drought. And in that particular year out in the desert, I learned how to hunt water.

And we didn't have trail cameras back then. And so, but around every water was buck tracks around every, and within, you know, a mile because it was so dry. There were all the bucks. And you could glass them up. And you just hit water. And the more water holes you hit, the more bucks you found. And so that drought year, I saw an amazing amount of good bucks. Even though it was a drought year, yeah, they might not have been at their peak, but they were, you found a lot of bucks. It's just the way it was. It was amazing how many deer were out in the desert. And I never understood it. So, anyway, a friend of mine was guiding a client. Couldn't find any deer. I told him, hey, go hit this other water hole. There's a spring. And you'll probably find bucks. And I didn't even know. I didn't even know what was there. They went there, drove up to the water hole. Two bucks were coming off the water.

They shot the wrong buck. And the buck that was left was this deer that I killed the next year. So, in 2002, they shot one of the two bucks. Went back the next year. I drew the tag, was guiding the governor's tag for Nevada elk. And then the same guy had a Utah Southwest Desert Indian Peaks elk tag landowner. And we were hunting two specific bulls, which back then was, I named Joshua and Goofy. Ended up killing both those bulls, luckily. But long and short of it was I spent so much time on those elk, I didn't have time to scout, really. And so, you know, obviously anybody that knows me thinks that's abnormal. But went back to that spring, jumped up on a little knob the day before the season, in a white shirt, wasn't even thinking, and glassed up this giant. Glassed up a freaking giant. And couldn't believe what I was looking at. Deer was by himself. No other deer in the area.

Really one track that I had seen. And so, anyway, I'm going to shoot this deer. Went back that night. Couldn't find him. Climbed the tallest mountain. I don't know. It must have been 1,000 or 1,200 feet straight up. Could not find this deer again. Couldn't figure out where he had bedded. Next morning, climbed that same mountain. Couldn't find him. Could not figure it out. Keep in mind, it's like October 9th-ish. I can't remember. Opening day of the season. Plus or minus a day. In Nevada. And could not figure out where in the heck this deer was. It's me and him. There's no other people. There's nothing. Nobody's out there. And so, ended up getting in my truck midday. It's hotter than crap. And drove the entire perimeter of this basin. On the exterior of the basin, there was a road system. And you can drive the whole thing. And it was probably a 20-mile circle. And never cut a buck track.

Never cut a buck track. Wow. Just head hanging out the window, drinking Pepsi, driving two miles an hour looking for a track. So, I knew he was in there. Like, I knew he was in there. Yeah. Yeah, it didn't leave. Was there snow on the ground? No, no. This is like October 9th in the desert. So, it's like 90 degrees in the middle of the day. Oh, duh. You just said that. Okay. 60 at night. Yeah. So, anyway. Went back. And the way these ridges ran, I was looking on one side of the ridge, just assuming. But I wasn't thinking about the back side of the ridge. And there's two ridges that had a back side. And I just wasn't thinking. And, anyway. Came in from the other side. I said, well, I'm going to come in from this other side. Grab my rifle. Parked my truck. Grab my rifle. Hiked over there. Picked up one of his sheds. But I didn't know it. But I looked at it. And I'm like, okay.

This is very similar to him. The way his G4 comes off. And I think it's him. And then went over there. Started glassing. And glassed up the other side of the shed. Wow. Back where he came from. And I was like, crap. Okay. I made a middle note. So, yeah, it's him. I'm thinking it's him. He had a real weird straight G4 coming up. But it was basically a four point with a little cheater or two. Ended up being a 187 inch set. Uh-huh. Well, glassed him up. He's bedded under me at 400 yards. Straight downhill. Chewing his coat. Glassed him up. Waited. Same area as his sheds. Same area as the sheds. The exact same area as the sheds. I mean, I'm seeing the sheds. I'm seeing him. And same area that he was in the year before. It was the buck that they didn't shoot that they were supposed to shoot. They shot the smaller buck. This one jumped from 187 inches to 237 inches. Neted 234.

But it was that growth year of four to five. Plus moisture. Plus, plus. Because it was a drought the year before. It all came together. You know. And so, anyway, glassed him up. Couple, two, three, four rounds. I can't remember. He's dead. God luck. Killed him that night. Cool. And, anyways, totally exhausted. Went down there. Took a few pictures. Didn't really know what I had. Figured it was a 215 inch type deer. Hiked back out of there. Grabbed the sheds. Grabbed my truck. Went all the way around. Anyway, ended up getting home at like four in the morning. But, long story short, I mean, you know, I hunted a deer basically I knew from the year before. He was alive. And then just didn't give up. Like, pounded that one area for one particular deer. Didn't just go hunt where the masses were. And then hunt a deer that can get old, you know.

I mean, his buddy would have been alive if I wouldn't have sent my friend in there. That would have been two years. The other thing I learned is the desert is so sensitive, you don't just replenish deer out in the desert. They don't just, you don't have enough numbers. You can double your population. You got five. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, and so when you shoot one, he's not there and only his buddy was left. I mean, there was one left. Yeah. And I haven't ever seen a big deer there since. It's just a very sensitive area. And anyway, so, and then just, you know, the deer don't leave. Like, just because you don't see a deer. And that's kind of a light story on that. And I've hunted deer for 30 days. But deer don't leave. He'll stay there as long as water's there. Now, this deer drank, like, the water was going dry, the mud, and he would step in the mud.

The mud would, his footprint would fill up with water and he's out of his footprint. Wow. And so there's just a lot. And you could see that. Like, you could see it. You could drive up to the water in the middle of the day and see that. And so, you know, maybe the time was limited. And pretty soon when it's dry, he's going to have to move. But anyway. And so with desert deer like that, where water is scarce, obviously you're going to find deer at water holes. Now in the high country, like up in northern Utah, I'm sure you have experience hunting area like that or Idaho. What's your theory on deer needing water up in the high country? Yeah, they need water, but there's no, that's why people will run more salt if it's legal. You know, like Nevada's not and Idaho's not. But, you know, people run more salt or something like that to congregate them to be able to get trail cam pigs.

Or just run on trails, you know, and that's fine. But more water, it just spreads them out a little bit. You know, there's feed and all of that where, like these desert areas, I mean, deer have to have water. They have to feed. They have to have shelter. You know, it's the basics. And then, and so, you know, feed's limited. And where the water is, and water's limited. And the more limited water is, the more vulnerable deer are. And so on a drought year, 2002, 1996, any of these really extreme drought years, deer are vulnerable. And while they may not grow gargantuan, you know, normally speaking. Sure. They're vulnerable and killable and, you know, anyway. And so, and they'll, and what I like about some of these desert areas is they'll summer, winter, rut, shed. And, you know, they might move 10 miles, but that's an extreme. A lot of times they'll do that in five miles, you know.

And so you get to follow specific bucks. Like, whereas region G, you can hunt region G, but then you've got to go to the winter range 50 miles or the poncing on 50 miles. And to follow a particular deer and think you're going to video him and pick up his sheds, it's quite a feat. And a few guys have done it. It's quite a feat. Yeah, that sounds like it. Yeah. But, but yeah, the high country stuff, you know, same thing. They have a house, man. They, they, they, just like you and I, they have a place they call home and you can bust them out, but they're going to come back at some point, you know. And so they have a place they're comfortable with. They know the routine, you know, they know what they're going to do when they get busted. I mean, there's, there's a lot to it. Not just, well, I can live in any old Aspen batch.

Speaking of their routine, like we all know the immature bucks, they're pretty easy to find, get close to and kill. Once they hit that magic age, four and a half and four plus, their behavior changes. Now those really mature bucks, you know, the typical type of bucks that you're hunting. Once the season starts, what do you know, like, have you noticed any changes in them? And I'm talking specifically like behavior. Do they water different, feed different? Do they use the terrain differently? Or do they pretty much stay on that same pattern that you've been observing during your scouting? Well, you know, even if you hunt them early, and that's why, like, archery is, is awesome for a number of reasons. But, but specific, in regards to, like, specific deer and hunting deer that you pre-scouted, even big deer will, will have a pattern. And, and sometimes it won't change a lot.

Like, I hunted Brutus, you know, the Utah Southern General deer, deer that I killed, or, or one of them. And he, I, I stalked him ten times. I stalked him every day for five days in a row. Really? And blew him, and blew him. And then stalked him again the next day. And blew him, stalked him again the next day. And so, and you would think, man, a deer's 250 inches. He's the smartest deer on earth. And, and no, no, not really. He's velvet. He has a home. He likes it where he feeds. And, and he's somewhat dumb and docile. And that's what velvet deer do. I mean, and, and then once they get hard horned, yeah, his, his patterns will totally change. A lot tougher to kill. A lot tougher to kill a deer in October. And so, you'll see that. Having said that, I've hunted deer, I hunted what we, a deer we call Buster for 20 plus days on TV. Ridge Raper TV and didn't kill him.

And he didn't show up the next year. And I have no idea where he is. That was the one that he was with Blackjack, right? No, that was a different. Oh, okay. Yeah. But. Different episode. My bad. Yeah, probably. Yeah. But anyway, he was a smart deer. Deer ran a lot by himself. Yep. He only watered. We did video him in the day, the night before the season. And I was like, this is in the bag. You know, all those deer's in the belt. We videoed him. We got him. We videoed him on the water. Glassed him up. No big deal. And we didn't see him again for, I don't know, I want to say 12 or 13 days. And when he, what, when we did see him, he was spooked because he had winded me. And anyway, he was totally doing a different pattern than every other deer on that water. Every other deer we could glass up. We could have hunted every single other deer. And there was a couple of good deer but him.

And it's amazing, like, what age. And I think that deer was old. But it's amazing what an eight-year-old deer, nine-year-old deer thinks. It's different. He knows. Like, he knows. Here's our trucks. Here's the quads. We're dealing with the water. We're checking cameras. There's humans sent there. He knows, like, I can water here at night. And then I'm not going to show my face. And he didn't show his face. And so, you know, makes it hard. And so we stretched. We checked in a different area that we thought maybe he was in. But we had no idea exactly where he was. And he, you know, Dusty was up glassing and glassed him busting out beside me. But I can't see him because it's thick trees. Busting out, standing at the back of my truck 50 yards and staring at me through the trees. But he can't see me. It's thick trees. And just staring me down, just knowing I'm there and just watching.

Just knowing because he smelled me. And we never saw that deer again. Wow. And so, yeah, while I can hunt Brutus and spook him every day and finally kill him, then you've got deer like Buster that just totally teach you a new lesson. And are maybe even somewhat not killable. Maybe they're not killable. You know, that would be a governor's tag on a thousand-yard rifle when I busted him out. And he sat there and stared at me. And that was a 950-yard shot, you know. Yeah. Their body was not killable. So, anyway. Those are the ones you want, too.

Yeah. So, anyway, kind of interesting. But every deer is different. That's for sure. But generally speaking, the velvet, they will do what they've done in the summer. And you can hunt big velvet deers. So, archery hunters have an advantage if they're willing to hold out. But a lot of guys are like, I'll shoot a 180-inch deer with my bow. I really want a 190 with my rifle. Me, either way, he's a 180-inch deer. He's a great deer. And if that's the deer you want, like, either way, you know, either way to me, he's a 180-inch deer. I still want to hunt the biggest deer in the unit, even if it's with a bow. It's just kind of that way, you know. When they're on the ground, they're 180. But it is quite a feat to kill deer with a bow. It's an incredible feat and an incredible feeling no matter how big they are. And it's really cool to be that close to deer. So, you know, it's just to each his own.

Like I said, it goes back to what it means to people. And so, but, you know, I didn't settle. I could have settled and killed a 200-inch deer or hunted a 200-inch, stalked a 200-inch deer that was there using the same water. And we would glass them up. But buster was the goal. Yeah. We hunted buster. We didn't even get stock on those other deer. So, that kind of leads into one of the questions I wanted to ask you. Because you could have killed still a nice deer, not as big as buster. Maybe buster, let's just say, is what, 230? And let's say that the other nice deer were 190, 200. I don't know. Right, right. And I've noticed that if you want to be consistently successful, it takes a certain amount of time in the field. More days in the field will help you and increase your chances at killing a big deer or killing animals in general.

So, you know, everyone talks about different class bucks, 170, 180, 200, 220 plus. Can you just give us maybe your experience? Taking your experience, how many days per season would a hunter have to scout and hunt in order to harvest, say, the 170-inch bucks up to the, you know, 220 plus? Well, yeah, it's hard to quantify that.

It's hard to quantify that. So, like, you know, really, a 200-inch deer, 190 plus inch deer, and a 250-inch deer might be the same age. So, they're the same knowledge. It is, we hunt a deer, so that's one of the other things. That's what Brutus taught me a lot. And the buck that was running with Brutus was 220-inch deer, and I shot him the year before. And that's what they teach you the more you hunt them is it's just as easy to hunt a 250-inch deer or 220-inch deer as it is a 200. They're not smarter. A 5 1⁄2, it's the age and the experience that they've had in the field. And they may get to be 220 in a 4 1⁄2-year lifespan. That deer is a dumb 220, you know what I mean, versus a 220-incher that's 8 1⁄2 years old. And so, it's age that dictates how much work they're going to take to kill. As far as scouting, you know, and just saying, well, I'm going to find a 180-inch deer.

I mean, a lot of it just depends on how much time you've had in that unit. And if you are starting from scratch every year. A lot of guys are just like, okay, I'm hunting, you know, Pine Valley again. Or Zion or Wasatch or whatever. And they just start with a clean slate, acting like they don't even remember the bucks that were there the year before. And that's changing. You're seeing that with social media. People are, like, wanting to name them and find their sets. And so, people are learning. But a lot of cases, people start with a clean slate and then, you know, and just go find some deer. And so, anyway, but I would say it's hard to put a time frame on it. Because, again, for guys that are really serious about it, they don't put time. Time isn't the issue. It's what am I doing today? What am I doing tomorrow?

What am I doing the next day and Saturday and next week and next month and throughout the whole year? Scouting never quits, you know? And not that you go out 365 days a year, but you might go out 180. You might go out 150. Maybe it's 100, you know? But I would say, like, a heavy scouting month would be, you know, 20 out of the 30 days. Do something 20 out of the 30 days. I'm not saying quit your job and go live out there. I had a job where we, you know, back when I worked with my dad, I did comp time. And he never paid for any of the hunts or never paid gas money or nothing. It all came out of a moderate wage that my family and I, and that's why I guided. I didn't guide because I loved guiding. I guided because I loved hunting and needed a checkbook that I could pull gas money out of. And it wouldn't be called the family budget.

And so, you know, anyway, we just, you end up spending time out there. And it just totally depends, you know, if you can, I mean, if you can get comp time like I did. I got comp time in the winter and the fall or the winter, spring, early summer. And then, you know, I would come in six hours a day, but I drove a lot and I wasted gas money. And I just spent a lot of money on my gas tank. Yeah. And morning and evening, be out there, come back, go to work. Evening, go back out, come back in, take the kids as much as you can so the wife can buy off on it. Yeah. And just, and do the, and you do that. Now it's morphed into where somewhat my job, somewhat expected, and I've made it to where I can be out there the full day. But there was a lot of nights I was getting three or four hours sleep all summer long, being out there, scouting for my clients.

Once in a while, I'd get a tag for myself or hunt the general and kept learning. But I learned stuff that I was learning from my clients, you know, which would help me on my personal tags once my income changed, my situation changed, and I could afford to buy, supplement my drop tags with landowner tags or anything else that I could get my hands on. I mean, I guided for tags. I didn't guide for food. I guided for tags. I guided for gas money. And so anyway, that's kind of how that went. And so how do you quantify it? Let's say you go out in the morning, work in the middle of the day, go out in the evening. Is that a day of scouting? And how do you quantify that? It's just time. It's just all the time you can give. And you might go out your first night and see 180-inch deer. So is it one day equals 180? Not necessarily. It kind of depends on the year and whatnot.

But like a – and it also goes back to a 220-inch deer might be just as easy to scout as a 180-inch deer. I mean, a 180, what was 180 this year? It might be 210, 215, 220 the next year. And so I think it's just the never quit thing. If you want a 200-inch deer, don't quit. If you want a 220-inch deer, don't quit. And when you find a 200-inch deer, don't quit. Keep after it. You might shock yourself at what you find. Sure. And so – Yeah, and it's the – so it sounds like it's age rather than inches, obviously, because it depends on genetics, depends on environment, feed, water, stuff like that.

But, I mean, to – and that's why I said consistently kill. Because if you want to do it every year, you've got to put in the time every year. And if you know it's an area, I mean, things could always happen. They could always come back to where you saw them the year before. They might move. But in general, they're still going to be there. And so, yeah, it's just a numbers game. Like, if you want to find that 220-inch buck, it's like how many X amount of deer do you have to look at before you're going to find one of that caliber? Yeah. Yeah, and that particular year it might be five, right? Yeah. But if you took and lifted all the trees up and gathered up all the deer and put them in a crowd, out of 200 deer, you might have one or two that are 200 inches. Yeah. But it doesn't mean you have to go through 200. You might be five. You might be 20.

If you're looking in the right spot, you've done enough work. You're building on compound knowledge from the years prior, from the prior five, 10, 15 years. You can change that ratio. You can change that fast. You know, right now I know I can go out there and glass up, if they were built right, I could glass up 190-inch deer tonight. Yeah. You know? But I couldn't do that 10 years ago. I couldn't do it 15 years ago. I'd spend – I'd waste – I'd ruin a truck, you know, finding one 200-inch deer. And so it changes. As you spend time in the field, you change. Unless you're totally oblivious and not trying to learn, you will change. You will – your knowledge base changes. Your aggressiveness changes. And you change. You change. It's just the same thing as you can go out and scout up a big deer. You can go out and scout up 180, 200, 220-inch deer. And then you may not prepare to kill that deer.

And so now, you know, let's say you don't shoot your bow enough. You don't shoot your muzzleloader enough. You don't shoot your rifle enough. Whatever it is. And I don't think just shooting is the ticket. I don't think you need to shoot every day on a bow to kill a deer. You've got one arrow that you need to let off. What you need to do is – maybe it's every other day. Maybe it's once a week for you. Whatever it is for you. But what you need to do is when it's go time and when it's time to kill them, you kill them. You don't – you're not clustering with your rangefinder. You didn't misjudge the wind. You didn't push it when you shouldn't have pushed it. And so you knocked him out again. And you have to let him settle down again. And luckily, like the Brutus story, I mean, he gave me chances each day. But I have other stories. I hunted a deer named Forks. It was unbelievable.

Deer had seven senses. I mean, it was unbelievable. That deer was one of the smartest deer I ever killed. And we can talk about him. But when it's time to kill them, you think about dumb stuff. You think about double-socking your feet or you think about whatever. It's how your rangefinder is around your chest. Did it knock the bow? Did your bow – arrow knocked the rest? I mean, it's the simplest things. The lack of preparation and the lack of taking care of the simple things helps deer live. If you're tightened up and you're buttoned up and you are a machine, you know, all of that scouting is going to pay off. And what happens – you know, what happened with me was you spend 30 days out there. You spend 50 days out there. Whatever you spend. And then it's time. And you get that shot or you get the opportunity. And you're close. And you draw at the wrong time.

You just think that the deer is going to not see you draw. And you don't wait until you go behind a tree or something before you draw. Or whatever the case is and you blow it. You blew 50 days. Or you blew $5,000 of wearing terror on your truck and gas money. And it really hits home when you – and I hate to look at it as a business. But it really hits home. It is. With your wife, it's a business. I mean she's counting the dollars and she's counting the time. And she's marking the days down on the calendar. Sure. Yeah. And then you go out there and then, you know, you did all of this work and effort culminates to an arrow hitting my rest or not padding the rest inside with sticky, you know, felt and stuff. And all of a sudden – and just something dumb and the deer bounds off and maybe you'll get a shot tomorrow. Maybe. Yeah. But maybe not, you know.

Maybe it's going to take another four days. And by the way, work's knocking down your door and wife's knocking down your door. And so what it did was it changed me. I used to get buck fever. And I do get buck fever after I shoot. But until that shot happens, you know, I've learned how to control it. And I don't know how to tell you to control it other than just experience. But at some point you're so mad at yourself that you didn't capitalize on that one opportunity that took you two months to get to that point. And the lifetime tag, an archery Henry's tag or some kind of lifetime buck that you found on a general season that you're so mad at yourself that you – it's almost like you can't forgive yourself. Oh, yeah. And you've been there. I can't sleep at night. Everybody's been there. Everybody's been there. But you've got to learn from it. You've got to learn from it.

Or next year's going to be a repeat. And then, you know, I find all these bucks, but I never kill them. And maybe it's something little that would – you taking that extra time or whatever, preparation, not just shooting. It's not just shooting. Rifles shoot well. You don't have to shoot a rifle every week. You've got to grow up hunting coyotes and killing stuff fast, jumping out of the truck, laying down on dead rest and pounding him versus just jumping out of the truck and trying to shoot a coyote offhand. They're simple things. And the rest or whatever it is, taking an extra three seconds, being able to read deer, you can see that deer's body. You know what he's thinking to a degree. And you know you've got three extra seconds freaking by-pod. Do something because you will miss that deer. And maybe it's a five-day or a five-day four-season Colorado or a nine-day third or whatever.

And that's your shot, man. I mean, that deer found a way, and he's not stuck to water, and he's looking for does. And that's your shot. You're not going to see him again. He's not patternable. You know, it's the season that dictates that. And so, anyway, I'm rambling. But... No, that's great because I think all hunters have experienced that. If you haven't, then you're a machine. But I know that recently people are starting to talk about practice shooting under stress. Because you're stressed when you're working hard, and all of a sudden you see your target animal. I mean, your adrenaline's going, pumping. And like you said, you kind of almost lose sight of the easy things. And... But if you can practice shooting under stress, I've seen that has helped me from year to year. And it almost sounds like those are maybe rookie mistakes.

You know, mistakes that younger hunters or hunters early on in their career make. Do you have any mistakes that you made early in your hunting career that once you fixed them led to better success? Yeah, I made a lot of mistakes. I make... I continue to make mistakes. I mean, every year I make mistakes. So... But I think... I want to go back to what you said about practicing under pressure. Because I... And maybe how you do it. Because I don't know how to duplicate that pressure. It's a lot of pressure. It's hard to duplicate the real life pressure. Yeah, like how you... Elevated heart rate. When you're out of breath, can't breathe. Have to control your breathing. You have to focus extra hard on settling the pin and letting it float. And you basically have to build your muscle memory on whatever weapon you're using. If there's muscle memory for a rifle, there's muscle memory for a bow.

And so once you have that... I don't want to call it autopilot. Because autopilot tends to mean that you're not thinking about what you're doing. Right. But at least it's familiar. You have that muscle memory. And so that's what I've done. Like whether you're doing 10 burpees and getting up, going over to your bow and shooting at a target. You just learn how to control your body and execute. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. All of that. Nothing... None of it can hurt. Like none of it can hurt. And I think... And I think... Yeah, I think it is good to throw a few arrows in the target every day if you have that opportunity. And I'm not... I don't want to minimize that. I don't want to minimize it. But I also think there's nothing else practiced. I think the average guy, 90% of them do nothing else. They don't do anything else to help them prepare for that shot. And there's a lot more to it.

There's so much more to it. And so... Anyway... I don't know. So what was your question on the... Before I went back to that? The mistakes? Oh, yeah. The mistakes. I made a lot of mistakes. I made so many mistakes. But I think the biggest thing is when. You know, when I was a kid, I... There was a cover-up synth that I used. And I was on the Kaibab and I was archery hunting. And a doe came up and sniffed my leg. Literally put her nose on my leg and walked on by. And I thought... I thought... Okay. That's amazing. You know, whatever that was. That was... And we're talking that back in 1980s. The late 80s. You know? And... Anyway... Shocked. Shocked that that happened. Fast forward to 2009. I'm hunting Brutus' buddy. Because Brutus is too smart that year. He's just not patternable. He wasn't patternable that year. Next year... Like we talked about it. I blew him ten times.

Hunting Brutus' buddy.

Sitting there. He went in. Bedded in a group of trees. I stalk into this... Right at the edge of this group of trees. Just hoping he comes out on my side of them. The deer stand up. A doe comes over. And sniffs my arm. Like literally sniffs my arm. I have no cover-up scent on. I don't have any cover-up scent. However, it's in a burn. And maybe... She had carbon in her nose. I don't know. Sniffs my... Does not blow. And walks on by. And so... The deer comes out. And feeds... You know, head on. And I can tell you all about that. And it ended up killing. But I guess... I guess... But going back to that. Generally speaking... Normally speaking... Wind is the biggest thing. And everybody tries to get around it. Like... Or cover it up. And cover-up scents... Even though it seemed to work that one day. It's like covering up a skunk. You're not going to cover it up.

You're not going to cover it up. You're going to make it... Maybe it diffuses it a little. Generally speaking... You have to have the wind in your face. And you can try quartering... You know, a quartering wind. Or this and that. But it swirls. Something's going to happen. And you're going to... It'll blow. It'll blow. And so... Generally speaking... You know... I push it. I used to push it. And I try not to push it now. But it's hard not to. Yeah. Because you've got so much effort... Into getting within 100 yards. Or 200 yards. That you want to make it happen. I want to make it happen now. I want to make it happen now. And so... Anyway... Yeah. And it's that fine line of being... Too aggressive. And being patient. I know that... You just... You gotta... Like you said... You just gotta... Experience it. To know when you can go. And when you gotta hold back. I've had other times when...

Like... When you're moving in on a deer. And you blow a doe. You just assume... The whole world erupted. And that you... Yeah. And you get careless. I get careless. So I... I'm like... Crap. I've already blown him. And so I make it a little faster. And I go a little faster, faster. And then I end up blowing him. Yep. I can blow him. And he wasn't... He wasn't blown. She blew. But she didn't blow that hard. Or whatever. And so... We... Sometimes I make that mistake assuming... I haven't seen him. I haven't seen him. He's probably not there. No. He's probably... He's probably there. And so you... You've quickened the pace and ruin it. And so... That's such a mind game. Yeah. I made... I made that mistake 50 times. Yeah. You know. Tons. And so... Yeah. Slow down. I've heard people say. Just slow down. They're not going anywhere. They're not going anywhere. Just relax.

Assume he's there until you know he's not there. And proceed with the stock as if he... You know he's there and he doesn't know you're there. Proceed. Caution. If you just think, oh, I haven't seen him. I should have seen him by now. And you start quicking it up. You find out there you are. He's staring at you face to face because you blew it. You can't just let your pants down, so to speak. Yep. That's right. So do you change your aggressive, passive tactics? Say you find this dream buck during scouting and then come to find out that you either get word or you show up opening morning and there's a dozen other people chasing that same buck.

What would you do in that situation? And maybe you've been faced with that situation. Oh, yeah. We hunted against a lot of people this last year. And that's normal. That's just part of it. And they have every right to be there as well. So I have no problem with that. But, you know, having said that, like there's things you can do. I mean, I'm one of them guys that won't be there first. So I show up at three in the morning, sit in my truck. You know what you feel like when you drive up on another truck at your glass and spot? Do you know what you feel like? Oh, yeah. You don't feel like getting out of the truck, right? Nope. Because you're going to go walk up on him, right? Yep. I'm just in the truck. I'm just in the truck watching you. You know what I mean? And I haven't hiked up there yet either. It's not daylight or it's not even a half hour before daylight.

It's four in the morning or five in the morning. Or maybe we are hiked up and waiting, but it's a mental deflate to everybody else. It's crap. They've got it covered. They're crushing this place. We can't beat them. Dude, it's not even daylight. I haven't set any glass up. You haven't set any glass up. We're on even playing field. We're both equal. You just drove up on my truck and so mentally you're defeated. All you did was drive up on my truck. Neither of us have glassed. And so I like to beat them there. I want to be number one. And then you feel when you're there first, you feel like you're on top of your game. I freaking didn't sleep in. I'm on top of my game. I'm going through it. I got my gear ready. You're ready. Like you're pumped up. You're ready. And nobody likes the competition. We all want to hunt that deer by ourselves. It's not the case.

Even on my desert units, it's just not the case. These guys are hiring good people. They're scouting too. They're working hard. They may know the same deer. And then a lot of it is the same thing. You can't assume because you can see the deer that they see the deer. You have a different angle even if you're 10 yards apart. Even if you're two miles apart. Just because you see them, everybody stresses out. Crap, we see them. And I would think you could see them if it's from his angle. Just chill out. Hunt the deer as if you're the only one hunting. And don't make that mistake. Don't make the mistake of rushing it. I got to get there first. Whatever. And if he's making the stock, let him make the stock. Yeah. Let him make the stock. It's not a big deal. And if he kills deer, you know, that's great. It's okay.

But because you work hard that every year for 10 years in a row, your success will prevail. You will do well and obtain or whatever, you know, what you've earned. And as long as you work hard. And these other guys are going to kill deer too. They're going to kill deer. They're deer. They're not humans. They don't have thumbs, man. They don't think straight. Sometimes they're vulnerable. They all have something that makes them vulnerable. And so other guys are going to get successful. But having said that, there's a few things you can do. And a lot of it is just not changing what you do. We hunted a deer for through August and September last year. Killed him like September 20-something. And we had other hunters almost every day with us in there. But you just can't give up. Like, you just can't give up. You got to keep hitting it and keep hitting it and keep hitting it and keep hitting it.

And then you get your break. And they're going to get their break. And if they're prepared, they'll kill him. But if they let the little things get in the way, they might not kill him. And so anyway, you just got to keep hunting as if they're not there. And then be as prepared as you can be. So I've had a friend run into that and gets up to this basin or whatever. And there's other hunters and they're glassing the same buck. And I guess they flipped the coin. And that decided who got to make the stock. But the person who lost got to cover his escape route. And so my buddy lost the coin toss, covered the escape route. And he's the one who actually shot the deer because the other hunter made a mistake. Deer busted out. He's able to shoot him while he's going on that escape route. So I thought that was kind of funny. So I guess the lesson to be learned there is always lose the coin toss.

Yeah, I guess. Depending on the other guy's skills and abilities. Or win the coin toss and make it happen. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, if Randy Omer's there, you want to win the coin toss because he's going to kill that deer. Randy's going to kill it every time. So, yeah. No, and I think that's good. However you can work it out. But this, like, arguing in the field, blocking roads or whatever, is just there's no place for it. There's no place for it. It's just, dude, go hunt. Go hunt. I mean, nobody likes making deals. Like, coin tosses are understandable. But, like, just go hunt the deer. If you want to hunt the deer, go hunt the deer. If I want to go hunt it, I'll hunt it. And if a guy's on a stalk, I'm not going to freaking stalk the deer. Yeah. But, you know, but it would be nice to have that same courtesy. But it is what it is. And you hope not to get into that.

But the reality is there's going to be some of that. We're all in the field. We all have the same kind of tag. And whatever. It is what it is, you know. For sure. Well, let's wrap this up with one last question. And I think Cam Haynes already asked you this question. But it's, what regrets do you have in your hunting career? What's your biggest regret? Oh.

My biggest regret probably, and it might be a little different, but my biggest regret is not putting the energy and time into the amazing tags I had before now. So, in the late 90s, I had some amazing tags. And I didn't really, I didn't capitalize on those tags because they were easy to get. I didn't think a lot about it. I didn't give them the energy they deserved knowing what I know today. And then now, today, I can't get those tags. You know, they're not obtainable. They're a once every decade, once every two decade type tag. And so, I think, like, if you get an amazing tag, do everything you can do to make that tag worthy and capitalize on it. And I think don't overlook these general tags. You've seen how it's changed. We had them over the counter. We hunted in the 80s and early 90s. We hunted muzzleloader over the counter in the rut. In November, yeah. All right?

And so, we saw that come and go. We saw Arizona strip tags over the counter come and go. Like, what I would give to hunt 13A with a bow over the counter right now, like, I would give. And yet, I didn't even do it. I only did it, like, two years. And when I did it, I went out there. It was 105 degrees and I went home. You know? And so, I think it's don't take for granted what you have. If it's Idaho over the counter. If it's general Utah. Whatever it is. You know there's big deer. You know, personally, wherever you live, that there's big deer. And I think, too, don't follow what made me successful. Or don't follow what makes you successful. Do what will make you personally successful, whoever you are. And hunt big deer that's close to your house. I had a kid from New Mexico. I want to kill big deer. I want to kill big deer. And, you know, I know what's made you successful.

And I'm thinking about, you know, getting some of those same tags and doing what makes you successful. But you're in New Mexico. You can't do that justice here. You don't understand the time that goes into this tag. And what you should do, there's some amazing deer in New Mexico. Amazing deer. With no pressure. Because nobody's thinking about Unit 12 or some of these other units. Go kill a monster within an hour of your house. And he went and killed a 220-inch deer. And doing it his way near his house. Sputting his time in. And you have that. You have that in Wyoming. You have that in Colorado on easier drop tags. These guys know big deer. Don't follow what makes me successful. Or somebody like Randy Ulmer or whatever. They have their own recipe where they live that matches their personality. Do what matches your personality and where you live. And make it happen.

And with some time and effort, it'll happen. There's not just big deer in the desert. There's big deer in region G. There's big deer in every facet. All of these states have them. And so capitalize on the tags. I mean, if I could take a dozen tags back, I'd give anything to take some of these tags back. I mean, I ate tags. I just didn't even hunt them. You know? And I just now back on it. And I'm like, if I had any clue how good that unit was. You know? And some of that comes with time. And just, you know. And Robbie Denning says, everybody wants to say, I wish it was like the good old days. And he says, but what they don't realize is the good old days is now. So, yeah. You put what you just said. That great advice you just gave. Puts another perspective on what Robbie said. Is don't dwell on the past. Deal with what you have today. Because there is some great stuff to hunt.

Some good things going on nowadays. So, thank you for that advice. Yeah. And it does seem like back in the day there was amazing deer. And a lot of them. And anybody and everybody with a jeep killed one. And it does feel like that. Having said that, there are deer dying of old age. You have to figure out where those deer are. There's deer dying of old age within an hour or two hours of your house. As long as you live in the older country. And deer that die of old age that have the right genetics and the right feed are going to be the kind of deer you want. And even though it's not the good old days, there are deer dying of old age. They don't all get killed. And that's, you know, what I just came to realize is I've got to find those deer that die of old age. And maybe I need to find 20 or 30 of those deer that are ready to die of old age. Or that are on that path.

That are 6 1⁄2, 7 1⁄2, 8 1⁄2 to find the right one with the right genetics. And so, that comes in the scouting and the time and the energy and all of that. And so, anyway, there's just a lot. I mean, we could go on for 10 hours on this kind of stuff. And hit tons of other topics. It's endless, you know. It really is. I mean, you've got 20-plus years of experience. And you could probably talk for a whole year and not even get through all that stuff. So, well, we appreciate you coming on, Jason. Especially sacrificing a scouting night to be on this podcast. And hopefully your selflessness and sharing your knowledge with all of us will reward you big time this year. Well, I appreciate that. Yeah. I appreciate that. No worries. Thanks for asking. And happy any time to visit with you guys. I'm glad you're up and going and cranking.

I've listened to some of your podcasts and some of your guests. You guys are doing it right. And it's awesome, man. It's awesome. Thank you. It's awesome to talk to like-minded people that are interested. And I don't have all the answers. I don't. I don't have all the answers. And I'm learning stuff every freaking day. I'm learning stuff. And so, anyway, I appreciate it. Yeah. Well, you're welcome. Very welcome. All right. Any last words? Not really. Just start, man. It's time. Just get out there. Yeah. It's June 6th. I can't wait. They're getting out there a little bit. And so, it's getting time. I know, you know, some years I don't start until after the 4th of July. And then I always feel behind the 8-ball for the next month. And so, I don't think you guys can start too early. No. No. Me either. I'm itching to go set some of my trail cams.

So, the snow has melted in the areas where I want to set my trail cams. So, I'm excited. That's awesome. Good for you. Yeah. Well, I wish you the best. And if there's anything I can do to help you out, give me a holler. And I'm looking forward to seeing what you knocked down this year, buddy. Awesome. Thanks, Jason. You too. All right. Sounds good. Take care. See ya.