EP 116: Mauled by a Grizzly and a Lifetime of Hunting, with Jim Craig

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody, welcome to this issue of Epic Outdoors podcast. Adam Bronson here. First off, I'd like to just thank our title sponsor, Under Armour. Appreciate their support of us at Epic Outdoors and sponsoring this podcast. Built some great gear and been with us from the start, so appreciate that. I also want to give a shout out to PhoneScope. They sponsor this podcast as well, build a great product. Check them out on the web at www.phonescope.com. If you're looking for a digiscoping binocular or spotting scope adapter, they've got it. No matter your phone, no matter your setup, they've got it. They can help you out, magnify your experience using your optics in the PhoneScope. Got a great guest today. We're going to be visiting with Jim Craig from Bloomfield, Indiana.

A prime example of somebody that sets goals in the hunting world, sticks to them, and can accomplish a whole lot of great things. What do you do for a profession most of your life, either first on or throughout the bulk of your, I guess, working career? What have you done? Well, I was a pipe feeder. I learned to weld and brought out of high school and became a pipe feeder and traveled around a little bit. My dad worked on a pipeline, so that was my first experience. We started welding, and then we started building construction. I started a small company back in the early 90s of our own, and we went there. And then Leanne and I run a small gun shop here in Indiana for 45 years. And that was because we had a lot of connections to hunting and like to hunt.

And I learned to shoot rifles at an early age, and that's not a primary thing in Indiana, but we liked to shoot varmints back in the old days with my uncle. And we started doing that and then become interested in big game hunting out west. So who introduced you first to hunting? Was it parents or family? You mentioned your uncle, but how did you get first started into hunting? Did your family always just kind of do it? My father, he always really liked to hunt. And he wanted you hunting instead of out running around. He just introduced us to squirrel hunting, which is a great teacher. You have to sneak in on squirrels when they're cutting on hickory trees and things. And I think it's one of the greatest things. And then we started doing that when you shoot your first squirrel when you're six or seven years old.

And then we advanced from that and went into quail hunting with my uncle and varmint shooting with one of my mother's brothers. And we started hunting, pointing dogs and started hunting quail. Mostly all the small game stuff. When did you, I don't know, and this was all in Indiana. You didn't have deer in that to hunt at the time, if I recall. And so, you know, you had to start looking elsewhere. When you get a little older, the squirrels, maybe they got a little old. You wanted something bigger and better. That's correct. We started, there was no deer when I grew up here in Indiana. And with two conservation efforts and everything, they released some from many locations and some in a military base here real close to where I live. And they moved down into the farmlands. And they moved our deer herd advancing up in 1956. They opened up this part of the county, Wiley, of Green County.

The small portion of it, deer hunting, it was where our little farm was located. So, I mean, I took off school, skipped school on the first day of deer season, the three-day season. And me and the school teacher, we deer hunted. I killed the first. Jeez, I don't think you could skip school these days with your school teacher and go deer hunting and get away with it. If God get fired and your kid would be in detention for two weeks, probably. That's probably correct. You know, but then everybody liked it. It was interesting, you know. Yeah. So, as you started, yeah, it obviously sounds like you loved to do it. When you thought about more and where to go, obviously you turned to the west. But were there individuals in either magazines you read?

Or who were some of the early hunters that you maybe followed or, you know, idolized or read about that kind of got your fire lit to hunt out west or things like that? Well, when we were young and even before we was in high school, we just got Outdoor Life and Field and Stream. And Sports Appeal was the three big magazines. And, of course, Jack O'Connor was a writer, a gun writer in Outdoor Life. And Warren Page for Field and Stream, Pete Brown for Sports Afield. And those guys were pretty influential, especially O'Connor could write really interesting stories. And this was what honed your, you know, your skill and to learn more about things like that. Gotcha. So, that's where, that's what got you, you know, he was kind of a romantic. He would romanticize some of the hunts. You know, obviously I was, you know, born in a different era, but I've gone back and read some of Jack's stuff.

And it was, you know, when that's all you had, that was the, it romanticized the hunt, the place he brought you into, you know, brought you there along with him. And now it seems like everybody does that. You got social media and everything else like that taking you there. But back then it was print. It was, you got a magazine. That was it. There's no internet. There's hardly couldn't afford to make phone calls. So, you wrote letters to people and things like that. But what was your, when did you first go on your out-of-state hunt then? When was that roughly? And tell us about it. Our first out-of-state hunt, I had an older brother, two years older than me. We hunted a lot together, quail hunted, rabbit hunted, everything. So, we went to Colorado with an uncle. Our uncle started shooting and some other gentlemen in 1965 to hunt mule deer and elk.

And we were not successful on elk, but we killed a lot of deer in Colorado. Oh, yeah, the 1960s. That was the heyday right then. Oh, it's unbelievable. Tell us a little bit about what it was. This was your first trip. And tell us a little bit about what you remember from that or maybe some of those subsequent trips in the 60s for all of us mule deer lovers that wish we could go back and see that. We hunted north of Craig, Colorado, towards the Wyoming border. It was an area called Bear's Ears. And a couple of gentlemen had been there before that. And we split up, and we were pretty high country. And me and my brother just hunted together. And I killed a—the first day after we hunted, I killed a pretty good mule deer. He just scored a little over 190 today. And I didn't even think about it back then. You know, you just—it's a good deer. So I shot this mule deer.

And my brother killed a deer. He could kill two each back then for $47, as I recall, for two tags. And we hunted there in 65. And in 1966, Leanne and I wanted to explore the whole country. Leanne and I were married, and we wrote letters. And I said, I'd like to try someplace else. And so we went to—wrote a lot of letters to Montana through the Fishing Game Department. We got a lot of letters to the outpid letters. And we hunted in East Fork of Beirut in Montana in 1966. And you could get a combination like license in of elk and deer and bear. And so in 1966, we went there and with another hunting partner. She put me for a couple of years in Lake Thompson. And we—with my brother Benny and we all killed elk and deer. And I had got drawn for a goat tag back then. And so I killed a goat tag. What? You know, it was an easy draw back then, you know.

What was the rough cost of a 10-day hunt or whatever you booked there in Montana for deer, elk and bear? What was the cost of an outfitted hunt back then? Do you remember, roughly? Uh, $350, I think, for a 10-day hunt. $350, wow. That's the price. That didn't even cover your license in some of these states now. Tag. No, and being on the license, I don't recall. I think it was maybe $100 in or $125 at the most for all your tags, you know. Paint the picture just briefly about what you remember your first experience backing up slightly to that Colorado deer experience in 1965. The numbers of deer you saw, the amount of bucks. I suppose you didn't have, obviously, great binoculars and probably great rifles back then either. So you probably were just, you know, firing a lot of shots and, you know, maybe not killing. You ended up killing a bunch of bucks, it sounds like.

But what was it like, numbers of deer-wise, numbers of big bucks you saw? What do you remember? Well, we saw quite a few good bucks, and they were starting to bunch up. This was the latter part of the season when we were there. So we saw a lot of deer and some really, I mean, I look back now, outstanding deer. And, but in the first rifles, my brother had a .30-06 and I had a .270. And it was an old Husqvarna. Husqvarna. Wow. Husqvarna. I know they make chainsaws and stuff now. Yeah. They're motorcycles and stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It made a great rifle in the 1950s. And my brother had helped me buy this. And I had a Kola Morgan, which Bear Cub was later Redfield, and a scope on a four-power. And that's what I used. And we had, my brother had, like I said, had a .30-06. And, but we shot a lot. So we knew, and my uncle had us reloading back then. So we could shoot.

And we had a good time. I mean, really didn't miss any shots, you know. But there was a lot. I always remember in 1966, a season opened in Montana on October 23rd. And elk were still, were bugling a lot. And I don't know why, but there was really, and there was low snow on, so it was a perfect condition. Yeah. We killed three bulls in four days. So. But there was my game. That's, that's interesting. Tell us, so tell us, how long have you been playing, like, the application game out west? You obviously, it sounds like, you know, you came once, you came back the next year to Montana. And then how did it start? You, you obviously knew that some, you alluded to the fact you drew a mountain goat early on. But how long have you been playing the western application game? And, and then let's get in a little bit about, you know, some of your favorite species to hunt out west and, and maybe why.

I know you're a big sheep hunter, but how did you, how long you been playing the draw game? I started, I was applying before all the applications. I mean, you just put in. And we didn't know much about the application. You just put in. It was like in Montana, those things, I think one year, a couple of years after that, we drew three, three or four of the five goat tags that was available. So nobody was doing it then. Yeah, the drawing odds are pretty good back then, the 60s or whenever that was. Yeah, it was, it was a, it was a good drawing. And then, so I just continually, and then I started putting in for sheep in Arizona and Nevada and places like that as time went on. And when to kill a desert sheep, you know, but, and, and many, many other animals and elk and things like that. So, so what would you say, what are some of your favorite species to hunt?

You know, for, for, and that, and we'll go into that based on, I know you've hunted sheep a lot and we'll talk about that. But what has become some of the favorite western big game species for you to hunt? Well, along with sheep, I always enjoyed, one of my favorite animals is hunting elk, mule deer, and antelope. I really, in bears, I really enjoy hunting, just about anything. You did all of them. Yeah. Yeah, I did. And I loved, I loved to bird hunt too. So this was part of our life. It was just like hunting all species. And it was always hard to single one out. I would usually pick one out. I really went on early. In the early, early days, what happens is sometimes you don't realize it, but we were out so much after elk, you would pass up good deer. And until we run your life, you begin to understand a good deer. It's the hardest to come by, yeah. Yeah, it is.

And we passed up some tremendous deer back in them days because you didn't want to shoot because they all ground you. Yeah. Well, tell us about when did you first hunt sheep and take your first ram? When was your first sheep hunt? What year? Remember? 1970. I went into the unlimited area in Montana in the Spanish Peaks and was a guy named Kenny Graber. And we hunted 10 or 11 days and saw a lot of small ram, but nothing legal. And the following year, I went to Southern B.C. and hunted. I hunted bighorns fair amount. And there was not a lot of information back then like it is today. So you had trouble finding where to hunt, what to hunt, and how to do things. How did you do that? Did you just write letters? Or how did you? Write letters. Write letters. Hundreds, hundreds, hundreds of letters. Leanne and I just, we still got a lot of letters. We were camping.

Some old outpickers and stuff like that. So there was not a lot of information you could get only just, you know, to what you could pick up writing and magazine stories.

And then, you know, there was no people hunting that you knew or that we could get information from. You had to go learn something. And then if it was good, you wanted to go back with that outfitter. And if it wasn't, you needed to find a different one because you didn't want to go do that one again. That's exactly right. So that's why you singled out certain ones you hunted a lot with. So when did you actually kill your first sheep then and what hunt was that? In 1972, I went to, I talked to Jack Atchison in Montana. Jack Atchison Sr. And he was a great guy, really honest, straightforward guy. Couldn't give you good information. And I met him in 66. I stopped there at his place. And he was doing some taxidermy work in the garage on his house. And so we got talking and I become friends with him. And he could give you real sound information.

And I wrote a lot of letters to British Columbia and stuff like that. And the Yukon and things like that. So he told me about the Yukon, which was a guy named Clay Martin. It's called Kelly Mountain Outfitters. And I went in there in 72. I killed a phantom sheep and a big moose and a grizzly and a couple wolves. I'll bet that poured gas on the fire, huh? Oh, yeah. It sure did. It was 16 days. We were in there in September. But Clay guided me his health number. I enjoyed it. He guided me a lot for different people, you know. So 1972, you killed the first ram. And obviously that started it all. How do you explain, I guess, what either that first sheep hunt did to you or what your passion is for sheep hunting and the whys and obviously what that's led you to in terms of the number of sheep hunts you've been able to go and do in your life? How do you explain how that changed you, I guess?

Well, it kind of changes your life. It's a challenge. And I think the challenge is it. I never did anything for personal recognition or anything. I just, I like to accomplish things and hunt hard, you know, and you felt good when you were somewhere. And sometimes it's like that. It would be so hard. And you spend so many days in the bad weather and things like that. And you think you might not go again when you're there. And then you get back home and you think it over. And it's a little far in you that you could not, you know, explain the other way. It's just you could do it again, you think.

So, yeah, they always said your body holds no grudges. So, you know, the physical part of what you went through, it didn't seem to affect you as you got home. Well, that's true. And after you get done on a sheep hunt many times, you're like, man, that was a grind. I'm glad I'm done. I'm home. And then it's usually for me a matter of days. Once that sore muscles over, you're thinking about when can I go do something like that again? Because it just, I don't know, it is everything. It's not only just the animal, but for sheep hunting for me is the places you get to go. And they're so diverse from the deserts of Mexico to Northwest Territories and Yukon and literally everywhere in between. There's almost no two sheep hunts are alike. They're so different. And I know you've been very, you've been on a lot of sheep hunts. I don't know exactly how many.

But I'm going to ask you just, I know you're not the kind of guy, and this was not, I know this is the podcast. You're not the kind of guy to beat your chest and tell everybody what you've done and what you killed. But for our listeners, I think we'd appreciate what a, just a self-started, I guess, interest in hunting the West, what that turned into you from 1972 to now. How many ramps have you taken? Slams have you taken? And then, I guess, are you done sheep hunting? Are you still planning on hunting sheep? Well, I have a lot more than I intended to, like I said, because I've met many great people on these hunts, outfathers and stuff. And we've become great friends. So I had opportunities that a person don't have today, but like with the Collingwood brothers and Bracey and a lot of people like that.

And so I went, got to, I went a lot and got, got to go back and sometimes I'm a while on a bargain deal. So, but anyway, I'd save money, save money, save money and just keep after it, you know. And it's, and I ended up, I killed seven of all the sheep. I mean, the bighorns and the gallstones and, and desert. And the desert I killed later, right? Well, not all of them, but I killed the first one in 87, I think it was, in Mexico. But, you know, most of them are killed, three or four of them are killed at the end. Yeah, I remember, and I think that's when you and I first, first met. You were, you'd killed, I think, six rams of all species, except you'd only killed three deserts. It was actually your wife, Leanne, that talked to me and says, hey, you need to talk to him about hunting sheep, about hunting sheep, desert sheep. And I'm like, well, what do I need to say to him?

He's killed a lot of sheep before. And so, well, yeah, he's, he's got three deserts. He needs to kill three more and kind of get caught up. I says, well, if he's got your blessing, I'm sure he's probably going to do it. So, sure enough, it, it happened. And, you know, you, you pretty much won it, won every other year, every year there for a minute and got, quote, caught up. And like you said, now you're up to, to seven. Correct. When was your last, when was your last sheep hunt that you went on? Was it just the last year or two? No, I, no, I went on one last year, but it wasn't mine. But it was 2013, I, um, it was the last one I killed. That was, uh, the other sheep in the old dad mountains in California, which, uh, I've got the, one of the, you know, the zone tags. Yep. There were the last ones.

And it was a, not a real good hunt because we had to hunt for 12, 14 days to find a sheep because it was about all dead. Yeah. And, uh. I remember that. Yep. And you killed a good old ram despite those conditions of that die-off starting to go through there. You did. Yeah. Of all these hunts, I mean, it's hard to pick out one or two, but does any of them stick out, you know, to you, uh, of all these sheep hunts you've been on that maybe they're all special. I know that, but any that stands out or any that were longer, um, or especially grinding or things like that are rewarding. Well, probably the ones that last the longest are the ones that stand out the most. I've been on a couple, and it was 23 days to kill a big horn with Albert Cooper and Bruce Columbia, and it was a year after I got with a bear incident.

So I hunted 23 days then before I killed one, and I was going to hunt 30 if I had to because he told me to stay until the season was over if I had to. So I done that, but it was brutal weather and a lot of snow, and it was tough, tough hunting. You don't forget those kinds. No. That's right. Well, you mentioned, you mentioned one of the, one of the instances, instances that I want to talk about today. And this is a pretty incredible story. And one, it's partly why we wanted you to have on today because it's, uh, it's, I don't know many people that, that have a story like this, Jim. And you mentioned this, uh, one of these rocky hunts you did with Albert in British Columbia. Set, tee up that hunt a little bit about how you got there, and then we'll get into the, to that hunt. And it was, you, you end up taking a, an amazing ram, um, for that, that era.

Um, but then, then things kind of got Western, I guess, so to speak after that. But tee up that hunt for us and tell us about that experience with the, with the bear. It was in 94, and, uh, I had hunted, helped with Albert in 93. Uh, and, uh, he just was down to two big one tags a year. Uh, or, uh, if they didn't kill one, you could carry over a tag. So, uh, I talked to him, and so, I went 90. He, he, he'd come down because of this. So, uh, he'd come down here, and we went over it and stuff. And he told me to hunt the whole 30 days if I need to, or, because that's best hunting. It's winter range for sheep, and right off, uh, Banff National Park, boundary south in the, not a centibling country, British Columbia. And so, we, um, was talking about it, and, and, uh, me, Dad, probably, there was a girl who would run our gun shop here at Miami, and she managed it for us.

She would, it was kind of a godsend for us, because she was a neighbor kid, and had a brain aneurysm, and almost died, and then she went to work for us here, because, and, uh, she got over that. So, um, but anyway, she, Albert made her, and, uh, he wanted her to come up, and he wanted her to kill an elk, a mountain goat, and he said, for seven days, he said, you just come up, and I'll put somebody with you. And so, it was kind of a godsend why she went, and, uh, and, but we rode in there on October the 4th, in 94. And as we rode in, there's, you ride through some pretty good sheep country. It's in about 25 miles, probably, uh, off of Highway 93 in D.C. And, uh, as we rode through, we took out the binoculars, and we found two rams up real high, right up towards the top.

And so we, as we did, when Albert had done a mile enough time, and so we didn't have a spotting scope out, so we didn't want to. It was a big, little elk walk right across, down low. And Albert said, we don't want to shoot or anything, because it might speak to sheep. So we went on into camp, which is another five miles or something like that. So we couldn't, we went to camp, and, uh, and, uh, put away. And the next day, uh, Doug Gartner, uh, the sheep, done the sheep guiding back then for Albert. He and I went down the valley toward this, the sheep was in, was spotting, and they found the rams, not me? And they were both pretty good rams. One of them was definitely a leghorn. The other one was a real hairy ram, brooned hard, and, uh, probably one of the biggest big horns I've ever had eyes on. But anyway, he, uh, had brooned a lot.

So there, it was, the age thing wouldn't have played then, and then they had to come up the full curl line. So, uh, so we, we, we were there looking at sheep. Uh, Tammy, the, the girl that worked for us, her and, and Bernie Wismore, who was a Canadian Mount policeman, who was taking vacation and was going to guide her. They'd come down looking for elk. They'd been elk hunting and come down that morning. And so Doug said, I wish he could go with me up that mountain, because if I could pack that big one out one trip, and she'd reckon she'd want to go. And I figured she'd get, because she was a real good athlete. And, and she'd been really running and working out hard. So, is, so she, they asked her, said, yeah, I'll go. So, she, up the mountain side we went. She could really climb, because she was in good shape, young kid.

So we got up, and we, you know, took us five hours or something to make it climb. And they'd come around, real tough going, and come around right above the sheep and come down. And the two big rams were laying there. And, uh, and they laid on a ledge right down below us. We got, what, within 50 yards of them. And it was just tremendous rams. And I always remember what time it said, my God, I see why you like to do this. Yeah. I'm out of the world here. Yeah. Two big rams, and you're ready to shoot rams. Yeah, and she, so we looked at it, and we even watched him for 30 minutes, because of that spot and scope on. And we was trying to look at splinters. The big ram was roomed up, probably, so over two inches in diameter. And he just, he was just tremendous ram, probably. We always thought he was in the high 180s, you know.

So, and the other ram was a younger ram, but he was coming on up above the bridge of the nose. So he was definitely legal. So they finally, the one ram, they left it. They said, it's your call, finally. So, um, he was probably one quarter inch short, I thought, on one horn, a half inch short on the other horn. And so, I said, I'll shoot the other ram, man. So I finally, I shot him, and he went down. And, uh, he was pretty steep. And, uh, he was on some tines down below us, 100 yards. So we went down and dressed him. And, and, um, and I'm a wonderful body man. He was a good ram. We looked at him. And he was probably, you know, if I look back at it and look at pictures and stuff, he was probably, uh, real close to any ground, a 180 ram. And, uh, he was a good ram. Great sheep. Yeah. Hell yeah. Tremendous sheep.

And, uh, so we went down and had went probably about, oh, I think maybe 200 yards, something like that. And, uh, and, uh, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the Canadian Mount policeman, he had a load of meat on his back. And he was right down below us. And he fell and slid down a shale slide. And then the burner was right down the head of him. He had a load of meat. And I didn't have much on my back either. But, but, uh, the, Doug had the horns and stuff on top of his load of meat because I was having some back problems. And so, and Tammy was, had caught up with me. She'd been behind a little bit, but, uh, and Barney hollered and said, Jim Grizzly behind you. And he just screamed. And then I rolled around. Here he come. You were in the rear and this bear was coming hard? Yeah. He had it coming hard. And we were screaming at him, but he didn't slow down.

He was, and I saw he had a, had a green and yellow tag in his right ear. And, uh, uh, so you know he'd been caught somewhere. Probably a problem bear somewhere. Problem bear. He was a problem bear. A little old bear. And he come in and I stepped around, came in, just clear her. And I was trying to kill him because I had a, my magazine was full, but nothing in the chamber, of course. Yeah. And, uh, I stepped towards him because you see him, as you hunt a lot, you've seen him kill a couple animals in your lifetime, you know. So he, as he, uh, approached me, I tried to get a shell in the chamber and I got it part of the way in. And then I think he was going to hit me. So I stepped towards him and poked him with a barrel. I was going to bolt it down and he grabbed the barrel in his mouth. And I don't know if it was clank, but I couldn't pull it. I couldn't get it down.

He hit me with his body then without slapping at me, you know, like they normally do. So now you're on the ground, your guns knocked to the side. He knocked me flying. He caught me before he hit the ground by my arm, my left arm. And, uh, I don't hide out, but I always remember his face shot in mine. He just, he barely wasn't carrying me. You know, and they carried me around there a little pace. And then, damn me, Sarah and I didn't, she had the only gun. The guys didn't even have guns and, uh, wasn't packing guns. So, uh. She had the gun. She was hunting out, but she had it with her, luckily. Yeah, luckily. She had it with her. Like I said, that's a godsend why stuff happens, you know. So, you, she had a, she, they'd been kidding her about her big gun. Cause her small gun was a .338. And, uh, I was, I told people, listen to, to a 10 grain of a bulletin for elk.

And, uh, she, I don't know, he, he grabbed me and came around and he told me then. And the shake man told me. Like a dog. Like a dog shaking something, huh? Yeah, yeah. That's what he's talking. And I remember him beating against the ground there a couple times. And he actually beat my toenails off him, my hunting boots, you know. Ah. Jeez. And, uh, but anyway, uh, he told me and then, I, you know, everything's kind of a blank. You always don't know what's going on, but it couldn't hardly see, you know. And he'd be right on the end. But he would, her guide, Barney Wuzner, would get him, get him off of me. And, uh, she would shoot. She shot twice right through the river, kind of sideways, both sides. Close range. I mean, she's, your life's in her hands to some extent. She's got the gun, but she, she can't shoot you in the, in the wrestling match, basically.

This bear's throwing you around, coming after you. It never turned on them, really. Just kept after you, huh? Well, it did later, but anyway, he would throw me. And, you know, but I, I knew she'd shot, but she shot twice. Then he got up, grabbed me again. And, and, uh, they both kept her composure in Rio. I mean, I really give him a lot of credit for my life. He would, uh, throw me. And, uh, and then, uh, he would be right on me again, you know. And, of course, he gets to get something wounded to finish it off. So, he threw me a long ways that time down the mountainside. And got, say, probably like 30 feet through the air at one time. It's real steep. Jeez. And, uh, but it got me away from him. I mean, anyway, and he went down and I was flipping and, and, uh, I was, uh. She shoot him again at that point when you gained, he threw you down. That's when she shoot him.

Well, he come right around in my face that time. And, and, and I was looking up. And here he come right in my face. And he didn't get a hold of him. And the mountain was throwing rocks and stuff at him. And, uh, and he went right, he turned him off of me and went right for him. And then he jumped at him. He backed up against Rockwell. And he jumped him. She shot. I seen the hair and the tissue just flowering my head. And, uh, and, and he hit him on the chest that time. And he ended up just stood there for a minute. It looked like in slow motion. Of course, you know how it is. Yeah. Everything is in slow motion. And, and he buckled over backwards. So, and here he come. He went and it was hollering. He's going to land on the gym. So, but I couldn't do that. My hands were messed up real bad. I had him in his face a lot. Shoot him up pretty bad. Yeah. You're trying to protect your face.

You mean when he was coming after you? Yeah. You just had it over your face and he was, he was biting. He was biting your hands and ripping them apart. Yeah. I just, I was fighting. I was putting my hands in his mouth and everything else because you're just fighting for your life. That's better than your throat or your face. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're trying to keep it in the way, you know. So, and then he ended up, uh, he went rolled over me and went on down. And then he told himself to his front feet and, uh, scooted me about 50 feet below me. And then my guy was right there close. And I'll be darned. He, uh, once he took after him, dragging himself, you know, up to the rocks and he was running. And he was hollering, hollering, shoot the FLB, you know. And, uh, he went over and all at once, I, that's the first time I'd ever heard her saying thing.

And I said, uh, you know, you, you just, she said, I'm reloading. And then all at once he went over a big rock and she shot right, or probably six foot and does. And changed his shoulder and out the neck that time. And that, and that takes him. Cause you always remember he was so blood soaked from all the shooting. He was just, looked like you throw the buck of blood in the air when the bullet hit. Geez, but he soaked up four or five shots. It sounds like, I mean, he was, adrenaline was going and he was in kill mode and he was in survival mode and kill mode at the same time. It sounds like. Oh yeah. Yeah. He was wound up, you know. So, anyway. So, killed him. And then, and then what? You're, I don't know. So you, you, he's dead and everybody probably came to you. And what, what'd they find? What condition were you in?

Well, I was laying there and they asked, Doug Gertner was the first one to get me. I know if I'm going to tell people, I've never seen a guy shaking so bad in his life. And, of course, they were chasing him to them. He come down. And he got to me first and he said, how bad you hurt? And I said, I don't know. I know I look bad because it was blood soaked all over. And I had a lot of cuts in my face and head. Stuff like that, but just surface cuts, you know. I said, I'm naked here, I think. So, then he tried to, he said, you care if I smoke a cigarette? And I always recall that because he was shaking today and he couldn't get it lit. That's how you knew he was shaking. He couldn't even like one, huh? Yeah. How about it? He, they, him and the bounty, Barney Weissmiller, he got there. And, of course, he was a good guy to have. He knew first day. He'd been in the force about 25 years.

So, he, they took off their insulator, their underwear tops, and got my arms all wrapped for compassion. And I didn't just, you know, where I was bleeding a lot. And, so, I laid there a little bit and I said, I believe I can walk out of here. I knew my ribs were real cold on the side. A bunch of them were. So, I took one good blow of that. But, then, I tried to get up. Man, God, I, once the pain started getting, my left leg was, my foot was backwards. And, you know, I fell. You knew you had a bad problem there. You weren't walking out anywhere. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, bone was sticking out of my leg, you know, and stuff like that. So, I was messed up. But, worse than I thought it was, you know. So, we spent the night, you know. So, you had to, yeah, your legs, I don't know. You couldn't walk down, even down to camp. Obviously, to camp, you're right there.

And, what, you have to send a couple of them out? And, obviously, now you're probably, you're probably hurting. I mean, that's an understatement. But, you got broken ribs. I don't know how many of them. You got broken hands. I mean, leg turned backwards. You know, all that. The adrenaline shock, you know, it's kind of starting to wear off. And, you're trying to just survive on the mountain. Sure. And, but, we talked it over. And, they got a fire. It was right at Timberline. So, we got, they got a fire started. And, it started heating up some rocks and problem against me. You know, you learn a lot of things like that. Like some old books, you know. And, they kept a fire going. And, so, the mountain policeman said, me and Tammy will go down and we'll get some help. But, I'll be back for daylight. And, which I'll sleep back. Oh, yeah.

And, it's about probably three hours to four hours up from where the bottom was at, where the horses were at. So, it's really tough, steep country. So, they took off. And, then, we dug during their stay with me. And, he kept a fire going. It was a night. And, he'd go down, drag up wood. And, we, but, you, you hurt. My left hand was just mangled pretty bad. I hated it right in his mouth a lot. And, right hand was tore pretty bad up. And, but, anyway, we laid there. You know, you're hurting. But, you know, a lot of people went to worse in service than you have. So, you know, I never did worry about things. I thought I could survive. So, they, about, I'll tell you a little side story to it, about your keeping time in your mind. About 1 o'clock in the morning, while Doug was down getting wood and he was singing. And, I heard rocks coming down from above me and around me.

So, I knew where it was. Probably a grizzly, another grizzly. You got blood everywhere from a sheep. You got sheep meat. You got your blood. You got, you know, a dead grizzly laying there. You got all kinds of, you know, carnage. It, my sheep was laying across a little itch from me, about 50 feet. And, it was in a backpack and, and, and, and, and, and, and it was, the tape was and a full body mount, a full body mount. And, so, the meat and all was there. But, I never did say nothing to him because it was fading my panic because he was a pretty nervous guy at that time. And, so, I just laid there and never said a word. So, Barney got back about 3 in the morning with a resident hunter who he'd recruited. He had a couple of sleep bags to help me cover up because it was getting cold. And, and, so, the next morning, I got daylight. My sheep was gone completely. I never did find it.

So, that bear on the night that was around, you're, I mean, you're sitting there, I mean, I guess you had your gun. You're sitting there in case, I mean, I don't know if you could have used it or not, but you had a gun. Well, yeah. I had a 2, not to me, 2.7. And, I had them dug when he left there. I could, a couple kind of get in there. Lay it across my chest. I had one good finger left on my right hand, my trigger finger. Jeez. And, I could use my arm to move it with on my left hand even though my hand and wrist owned it. Because there was really much of that. Yeah. And, so, I could kind of, kind of protect yourself if he had to. So, he, he did that. So, it was, but anyway, it was, the sheep was gone. So, the morning, it was all gone. Meat, tape, horns, everything. Yeah, everything was gone. Gone. Never did find it. Never did find it. Yeah.

So, that, that day comes, you're, obviously, you're bummed, but you're like, I got to get out of here. How did they, how did they get you out of that situation? They come in with some, with some metal policemen. And, we're very familiar with these guys because they were mountain rescue people from the station in, in, in, in, in the town there. So, they, they come in with a helicopter the next day. And, they come up the valley. And, and, they had that far going. You could see it. But, even though the sun was up, and it was, after daylight, a long time. So, they come up over and he hovered right up of us. And, you couldn't get down. It was so steep. And, the snag sticking up down below. So, the mountaineer told me that long line, you're out of here. And, that's what he called it. He'd worked with them before. So, they went around. And, then, they come in with one guy on a long line.

They dropped him down. I thought, I mean, they brought, some of us are going to drop another guy down. So, but, they always ask. I don't remember what they said when this one guy dropped down. And, they seen the, there was a malign policeman who said, how do you get here for that? And, he said, I was here when it started. So, but, they worked an airplane wreck a week before that, I think. So, but, those great people I never, you know, had done the praise for. And, I remember them pretty good. They used to call me back for a couple years and talk to them a lot. Because, they took me down the valley and sent me down on a double bar. And, then, where they could put me inside the helicopter. And, they took me out. So, they put you in a, they just put you in a little, I don't know, cage or gurney type thing. And, lifted you up, Hank dangling from a cable. Yeah. Oh, geez.

That's pretty unnerving. I mean, you're flying out over the valley in southern, you know, Alberta. Dangling 100 feet below a helicopter. I guess that's better than staying on the mountain and dying. Oh, I tell you, I always remember one of the guys that was there. He snapped on with me. And, his face was right up. You know, it's fine. They had me kind of in a body bag and, you know, on a kind of a gurney. Yeah. And, he was saying, I said, thanks a lot for the good service. And, he said, you'll think so when you get the deal, because it's about $4,500 an hour. And, I said, I don't care what I call. You know, you're out here. That's right. I got a life. I want to live still. Yeah. It was the only thing I didn't get charged for at all. But, they were great people. I got a lot. And, they flew me down in to the highway, 93, which goes up to Kootenay National Park.

And, we landed there right in the road. And, they had their, some young climbers at the hotel over there. And, they had to go help get them. So, they put me in another helicopter and took me to Invernear, West Columbia. It's a hospital. And, then, what happened there? Obviously, you had to stay there a while. It wasn't just like they patched you up and sent you out the door, I'm sure. Well, they couldn't do much with me because I was in pretty bad shape. And, so, they transferred me that night to, over in Calgary, Alberta. And, I spent 16 days over there in the Flint Hills Hospital. And, I had the operation on my legs and hands. And, I had, you know, I really was banged up a lot worse than what I thought because the other things they didn't find very good there. Yeah. Well. Back and ribs and probably internal problems. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

I mean, one of those things that, I mean, it was in 94, I think you said, that if it was in a part of NWT or Yukon or somewhere, probably aren't getting a helicopter there like they did there. Even though you're in the wilderness there, you're at least within, you know, somewhat close proximity to help that can actually save your life. That's an amazing story. I've had you tell me that story on several occasions. And, when I've introduced you with other people with me at the sheep show or whatever, that's, I mean, that's one of those experiences that, you know, not many people live to tell about. And not only that, like I said, you're in proximity somewhere they could get a helicopter and get you out because you weren't, you know, you weren't walking out, probably couldn't even get on a horse and ride out. Maybe they could have done that.

But by then, you know what I mean, two, three days later, you had a lot of problems going on, you know, whether it was infection or just everything else. You're very fortunate, you know. You're very fortunate. It's a crazy, crazy experience, Jim. I mean, I don't know. And then, you know, you've been back on how many sheep hunts since then. That was 94, so you've probably been on 20-plus sheep hunts after that. It didn't slow you down. Once you got healed up, I don't know how many months or years you had to take off to get back to normal from that. But it probably didn't slow you down for that long, huh? No. Albert told me they couldn't find my sheep. He said, you're going to go. Nope, never did find anything. Surfed and surfed and surfed with a helicopter rail and everything. He was in a green backpack.

But anyway, it buried it probably. But anyway, Albert told me, he said, you're going to hunt next year if we have to pack you. So I was laid up pretty bad and had to have a leg operation here and some things and get some other stuff corrected. But I was pretty tough to get around for the next year. But I went back the next year. You did. The next year you went back. The same place. The same place. And we hunted 23 days for our final kill. The kill was a 40-inch big horn. Holy cow. Jeez. That's amazing. Yeah. I thought you had bad luck and you had good luck. But then I said, say this, in the following year, Albert called me that summer and he said, I'm not me and you're going sheep hunting. And I said, I don't need to. And he said, you have 100 people on your waiting list wanting to go. But he said, no, I don't care. I said, I take what I want to. So he said, I've got many years and gone.

Just me and you. And I said, okay. And we hunted 15 days and I killed another 40-inch big horn. Jeez. So I said, bad luck and good luck. Yeah. You got the best of that mountain, finally. Yeah. Wow. What a story. Jeez. That's amazing. It really is. Thanks for sharing that. I mean, when I see you, I mean, I know, you know, it's all pins and screws and everything else that held you together for a while. But I mean, you get around okay, despite, I'm sure, what you look like. It wasn't great shape, but lots of crazy stories. So speaking of, like, how do you, what do you do? I mean, you know, even this day and age, what do you do to get in shape for your sheep hunts? I mean, you obviously value them. You know, I know that. You've hunted them enough that you know getting there and being able to do your part means something. It means a lot to you.

What do you and Leanne do to be ready to go sheep hunt or hunt in general, I guess? Well, we push one another, so that helps a lot. But I used to work out every day, every morning. I had a bad heart attack in 2001. I had never had surgery, and I was fortunate to come through that. So I, since that day, I work out every morning. On trade mail, I work out for an hour, usually now. And I've had some times where you have an injury or something, you couldn't. But I work out for an hour every morning, and so does Leanne. We try to stay in shape. And I'd still kill another sheep if I had kept good from it and draw. So I know that's like, yeah. Well, what do you, yeah. Speaking of that, I know you still, you alluded to playing for sheep tags. And I know you've drawn a couple of Rocky tags, I think, in Wyoming. One or two there. Yep. But I know you got a bunch of points in like Nevada and Arizona.

We've talked about that often. Right. Right. 28, 30, something like that in Arizona. So you're still, you're ready to go, I guess. If they pick your name, you're ready to go, it sounds like. I'll go. I'll go give it a try. You know, you don't quit, you know. Yeah. What about other hunts that you've got booked or planned here? Do you got anything planned for this year yet or the next year or two? For this year, I'm going up in the northwest territory with Stan Stevens and McKenzie Mountains. He's going to kill a moose. And I just want to kill a good moose, another big moose. So I just, Stan, I've hunted sheep with him several times. And he's one of the real premier outfitters. And we're pretty good friends. So he wanted me to come up. And there you can get in some pretty remote country without horses. You can do the helicopter deal.

You know, it helps you there and get the meat out that way. So I'm doing that. Last year, I was able to, I had a friend in South Dakota, draw that land's tag. And he killed that new world record. World record. Yeah. You were there. Tell us a little bit about that hunt. Well, it was this young gentleman. We'd met him, Clayton Miller. And I'd met him to a paddhunt out there. And he found out how sheep hunted. We always spent a lot of time talking about that. And so, uh, and we got into the sheep show a year before, my son of course, and his wife came out. And he called me then. He said, I draw on the Badland sheep tag. And, and I said, oh my. And I said, well, I didn't know how big a sheep was there. You just say he's hunting sheep. That's all right. Sounds good. I said, I'd like to be out there and look at him.

We said, we went out in the summer, done some, uh, looking with spot and scopes a lot. And we spent a couple of days with him. And, and we found the biologists there was tremendous. I mean, I have to say that about them. They were tremendous people. Uh, they gave him a lot of information about, you know, a lot of pictures of rams. So I was still questioning what they, their figures. So, uh, and we, we looked at the number, what to call them. The biologists call it number two rams. And, uh, and, and so we, we got a lot of pictures. I found them. So we never could find the number one ram they call him. He was longer horn. So, um, so we went back in October when he's gone hunting and the biologist told him this sheep comes out, uh, in the park usually about the 27th of October of the year. And when they started rutting and, uh, this year was the 28th and we and I were there with

him and, and we stayed back and of course I was up 400 yards. And it was, I think it was the 29th when he found a kill that bit got out and went to some wheat fields. We out in, uh, you know, five miles from the park. So just looking for, looking for use, huh? Oh yeah. And, uh, and, uh, so they was about six or seven big rams together. And, uh, but he come back and bedded down there in the National Grasslines and he called in there and was able to kill it and ended up scoring 209 and eight. Yeah. It was a tremendous ram. I held that at the sheep show and it's, it, it's really jaw dropping is probably the closest you can to describe it. It's just, it's something else. It's, uh. I couldn't believe it, you know, because he said to smash and so on. I really enjoyed it. I told him I just seen somebody like that kill once because I said, I told him, I said,

um, you know, I've seen guys pay a half million dollars for tags at sheep show. I never did that, but they said, I said, how much you have in Disney unless you're $300? There you go. That's right. I give you hope for drawings, you know. He was the lucky one. That's right. Yeah. So. That's all you have to put in. Yeah. That's right. Well, do you have any, uh, I mean, you're still, it sounds like you're not going to be like you had a moose hunt planned this year. Um, obviously any sheep tag that comes around, I know you've hunted, you know, deer, elk and things like that still off and out west. What do you got to do to you feeling? I mean, I'm sure at your age, 79, I think, is that right, Jim? Right. Uh-huh. Yeah, that's correct. And, and surviving a grizzly bear, you know, just crunching, I guess, for lack of a better word.

Was it, do you got to do anything special to go on any of these hunts or do you just, you know, take a, take a couple Advil and grit your teeth and go do it these days? Well, I've got a couple of good doctors who shoot me up sometimes with some painkillers, you know, so you can do it, you know, but, uh, but, you know, it's, it's just suck it up and go. I tell people, you know, you, but you've had to have some of that. I don't know. Probably like some of our pro athletes, we hear stuff like that, but you're basically like a professional athlete, then is what I'm hearing. Is that right? Well, you just, you just keep, you know, you can't quit, you know, you have that mental motivation, you know, that keeps you going and just the hunting. And, uh, I, I, and, you know, as you tell these younger kids, you know, today, you just

got to be motivated, you know, it's something that's your drive within you. Keeps it going. Well, that's admirable. If you're doing that, getting shot up or epidural or whatever, just to, just to stay going, whatever they got to do, it's, you're trying to squeeze every experience you can out of it. And that's admirable. So. It's great. Um, tell us just a little bit, maybe for some of our listeners, some of our gear, as you can probably attest as better anybody, it's come a long ways, whether it be from our clothing to our rifles and our optics and whatnot. Tell us about, you know, I guess some of the old optics you used to have or what you, and then versus what you have now, what's your setup now that you use on either your sheet punts or things like that. And versus, you know, how contrasting gear has changed in the last 50 years.

Well, the glass has so much better, especially binoculars, you know, and things like that. Back when we started, you had to use a binocular. Like I had some, one of the first sets of Black Bushnell had had and several things like that. And, or United, there are some of those old binoculars. I bought it one grand it was, trying to save money, but there wasn't any made. Uh, Barshan Loam had one. And, uh, I got a, in the early 70s, I got a Barshan Loam. Scott and Punish got open. It was in 60, they call it. It was a good glass, but heavy. And, uh, but, uh, the glasses, I used to get eye strain so bad, you get sick. And you're a stomach from eye strain. And, uh, just, you look so hard for, for sheep, you know, just stare, stare, stare. And then, uh, but now, of course they got four, uh, you know, like 10, uh, 42s and stuff like that. And with a range finder in them and, uh, new funny scopes.

They're pretty nice, aren't they? They're nice. Oh yeah. Easy on your eye. Easy on your eye. Yeah. Yeah. It's a big improvement. And there's a lot of good ones today. Yeah. What do you, what's your setup that you use on it, Mike? Let's say you're going sheep hunting this year. What's your gun setup? What would you take? Well, I still use a 270 and I use a... An old Jack O'Connor gun, huh? Yeah. I've shot one so much, I just know the trajectories and everything about it. But I, I was, mine was a, uh, I've got a Weatherville Ultra Light N270 and, uh, and I've used it the last few years and, uh, I retired my Husqvarna. And, uh, but anyway, I use that. I got a three and a half to 10 Leopold on it and that's it. I wouldn't change. That's it. That's your go-to. Killed a lot of sheep. It's that setup, I guess. Yeah, it's just, uh, I never had much gun problems or scope problems.

You know, you had good glass and like Leopold, that was always really a plan that was pretty tough, you know, and bad weather and everything like a day after day. So, great. With, with everything that you've been able to hunt, um, I think you've been overseas, uh, you've taken, you know, maybe a Marco Polo. Tell us a little bit about a couple of those trips. I know you've mainly focused, uh, over in Western North America and maybe that's because some of your trips overseas, but tell us briefly about those, um, those trips for some of the Argolis. Well, I hunted Marco Polo in Kyrgyzstan once and it was not a good experience there. We had a lot of problems and I killed a big Ibacks and, and, uh, uh, we hunted sheep for 10, 12 days, but, uh, just, it was very poor several years ago and the people we had were

very poor and didn't have any, they wanted you to shoot like a three quarter of a mile or something, you know, and you just, it was just constant. We just ride horses after them and then other ponies, you know, you just, it was this terrible experience. The Cullingwood boys were in rage, but it was me and they couldn't get over it. So they just couldn't, no hunting ability at all. And then I didn't kill one on that, I just killed the Ibacks and, and then I did never get hit home because it was more of a shakedown, you know. You didn't, oh, you didn't pay somebody enough money probably, I guess. You got, you get extorted and you're over there and sometimes. Yeah. It's got a lot better. Yeah. But then I went to Mongolia once and had the Gobi, or Galeana, Gobi Ibex and it was a good hunt. I really enjoyed it and good people and didn't run into the problems.

And again, the Cullingwood boys went with me and they enjoyed it because you just, they just take them pictures, red shot and Ibex, but it was just mostly photography for those guys. Yeah. So if you could, if you could draw a tag right now in the Western U.S., you've got points built up in places. What are, what are the top couple tags that you personally would want? You've hunted a lot of sheep, but still probably take, take more of them. But what would it be? If you could pick 2019, the lucky, lucky tag gods smile on you, what would you want the most? Well, I don't, it's hard to put it in the category. Of course, anybody would take a good Montana. Yeah. Sheep tag. You've not drawn one there, I guess, huh? No, I've not drawn, never drawn that. And then I still, I like to hunt sheep. I just, even any sheep, I enjoy hunting.

I mean, as long as it's a good, good representative sheep, I aim or I don't care. Everybody wants to kill one, that's part of it. But my thing is, I just enjoy hunting them and look forward to, like Nevada. I hope to get drawn to Nevada sometimes. I like to hunt different places and see the terrain. I tell people who you hunt with is as important as what you hunt. And of course, I've been with some great people and very knowledgeable people. And you can sure learn a lot from people, you know, and the friendship you get from those people is just tremendous, you know. There's never, you can't replace it, you know. And it's just a great experience of the people you've been with. Absolutely. Tell us about, I know you and Leanne have been very involved in some of your local chapters or some conservation organizations there in Indiana.

You give them back a lot of your time and resources there, even involving your place, your house and whatnot. So tell us a little bit about some of that, what your motivation is for doing that, why you feel that's important for you guys to give back to the conservation and education of hunting and shooting sports and things like that. And just a little bit about the different groups and organizations that you've been a part of there. We, Leanne and I, we've always been involved in those conservation organizations and been a member of almost every one of them. And because we're firm believers and get youth out in the outdoors. And I know it always kept me going because it keeps kids in trouble if you can occupy them with something else such as the internet or something like that. So we were involved in close to 30 years here with the Rocky Mountain Health Foundation.

We helped farm the first one in Indiana. It is the first one. And we've been involved in that. My wife, she still takes care of everything on it here in Indiana. So we still have a pretty good one, like 400 people a year come to a banquet. They've helped with some programs too. We've done a youth program with them. And they call it Safe Challenge, which we get kids. And we do 100 kids, like on a Saturday. And we like to get them involved. And we feed them. This is at your place? Your place. Yeah. We've got a camp here right next to them. I'm a brother, Jack. We've got a camp. And we bring these kids in. And we've had as high as 160. But we teach them several things. One thing, we teach a class on gun safety, number one. Number two, we teach a class on why you hunt, American conservation model. Because some of these kids are getting brainwashed so much in schools.

They don't hear it from the people you need there. So we bring in some conservation people to teach a class on our American conservation model. And then we let them shoot and give them any prizes. And we feed them a dinner that evening. We feed hamburgers and hot dogs for lunch. But we feed them wild game, like elk steak, moose steak, and everything like that. And let them run. Most of those kids have probably never had that, maybe a lot of them, huh? No. No. Yeah. Because 50% of these people we get has never had a gun, you know, in their hands. But you can convert them. I mean, when they see that and they tell their parents how good that media is and everything like that. And we do that. Leanne does a lot with women here, too. She has a shoot every year for women. And like 50% again, these people have never had a gun. So we teach gun safety.

As a matter of fact, we get a lot of support here from the local politicians, state representatives, state senators, and things here. We live in a pretty conservative state. So you can get those people to help you out a lot. As a matter of fact, last year, Leanne had the first lady of Indiana, Jan Halcombe. She was here and wanted to address. And she wanted to address us. Said, you know, there's nothing any better than hunting than putting meat on the table. And I said, I'd really like to see a politician say that. That's neat. And you guys do that right there at your place. And I know a lot of your animals that you've taken around the world. I think you take the kids in there. Yeah, we've got a place. And show them your mounts and things like that. Just a good introduction. Yeah. Yeah, we've created kind of a museum. And Leanne and I, we've got a 701C3 established here.

And it's our museum. And we're leaving it. We've got a board. And we'll leave our home and all of our mounts to people to enjoy in the future. You know, because that's our goal. Because you can convince kids there's another world out there than what they see every day. Yeah. And you give them a goal. And that's what my dad always thought. If you keep a kid fishing or hunting, you don't have any problems. That's just part of life. You know, you're giving them some ideas. And we've really been pleased with a lot of kids, you know. And we take them, we used to take them on elk hunts and things like that. We kill cow elk and things like that. So we still do some of that with one or two kids a year. So you just got to try to sell the point to kids, you know. Because like I said, schools don't do a good job, you know. No, yeah.

Hunting and hunting in general or conservation or hunters being conservationists is not, that's not taught. You know, we understand that. We know that from being sportsmen that, you know, not only do we, you know, fund to a large extent state fish and game agencies through the buying and selling of hunting and fishing licenses. But, you know, through the Pittman-Robertson and Dingle-Johnson Acts, you know, we're taxed on our fishing and hunting gear. And that goes to it as well. And then we, you know, we obviously, you know, the United States has come a long way. You know, we're, if it wasn't for sportsmen and state fishing game agencies and sportsmen being involved, we wouldn't have the game species we have flat out without regulated hunting of some sort. And sportsmen and hunters are the best regulators these days.

We want to enjoy and do what we like forever and see our kids and grandkids do that. And so those programs you and Leanne are doing are very admirable. So is there a way that if somebody lives in your part of the world that they could get a hold of you? Or do you have a website or anything like that? How do the, you know, if they have kids within a distance of you guys in Indiana and want to bring some down to that camp, how do they find out about you guys? I can't tell you what, but it's Craig Family Camp. Craig Family Camp. That's right. And we, and Brother, and we set that up and it's a nonprofit and we bring kids in and teach them, you know. We've had great response. We've got some kids now. I got one kid. I remember we took with the Elk Foundation. We done a show with him and he's got the whole family behind him now. It's just the opposite, the way a father takes a kid.

You know, the kids, the family there. So it's a pleasure to see that happen, you know. And we just, you just got to work at it to sell it, you know. We got to sell our, and I tell people we need to please our own people too. Yeah, that's right. That's pretty important, you know, because do the correction, you know, you need to. And we just tell kids when you're coming to shoot and hearing stuff, you're here to learn. And the phones are off. And here, and you're here to learn. And you pay attention to your instructors, show them respect. And you don't have any problems with kids. If you say it's a little straight, you can, you know, do that after you leave here or evening. But here you're here to be taught. So, well, that's awesome. Pretty important. That's very admirable that you guys do that. And, you know, maybe brings me to another question.

And obviously you guys put a lot of passion into that and teaching young kids the value of hunting and the role of it in wildlife, you know, conservation and just having wildlife populations. But if you could go back in time, I guess, and give advice to the younger version of yourself or hit the redo button on anything, whether it be in hunting or things like that, would you do anything different or what would be your message you'd say to yourself? Well, it just, I wish I could have got involved with kids younger. And you don't think about it. You know, you think everybody's like you. But a lot of kids didn't have the opportunities because we see people who, once they get started, they really enjoy it because it's something. You don't have to be a seven-foot basketball player to enjoy something like that. You know, in sports, it can be, it's just a great sport in itself.

And I could have, we should have done a little more back in the day, but you don't realize that until you get a little older and you see it, you know. And kids are not taught the politeness and ethics like you need to be taught. And that's one of the biggest problems we have. And like I said, a lot of kids, they just don't know. It's not their fault. They just don't know. Well, that's all very admirable. And I appreciate your time. I appreciate your friendship, Jim. I look forward every year to seeing you a couple of different times a year, it seems like, at the Sheep Show and maybe another convention that we maybe meet at. And you guys are always, you know, you're always the same. And what I mean by that is you and Leanne are always, you seem to be very happy people. You're very upbeat and you're very positive people. You're the same every time I see you. And it's that.

You're very excited to meet and greet people. And, you know, look forward to doing it again, I guess, maybe next winter. But maybe, hopefully, I get a call from you here at Epic Outdoors in the next coming months with some good news. And you do a sheep tag or something else. Awesome. You've done it a few times in the last few years. You've called. Your last Wyoming sheep tag I heard from you. Yeah. You do an Arizona elk tag a couple years ago. Yeah. I will be talking to you. And, you know, you guys do a great job. And the best thing in the world is more heaven news now to get the information out than they used to be, which is helping a lot, you know. But we all got to fight it. You know, it's just we never let up. You know, we have people come in just like, for instance, a year, a month ago, there was a lady coming in, or a young lady.

I mean, young for me, which is, I think, 40, 42 or something. And she said, I'm going to kill some sheep. But she knew definitely what she was talking about. And, matter of fact, she just came back from Mexico, killed one. And she said, she's booked another hunt for this fall. So, to me, you know, you see a person, they see a damn sheep and really gives them a fever. You know, I said, I'm going to do something tough, you know. And it is a tough sport. You know, any of the hunting, elk hunting is tough. But I tell kids that we used to go on our own and hunt. And then you couldn't have enough money to be a guide for a couple, three years to save their money and just save their money and everything's achievable. So, you know. That's true. You know, I talk to a lot of people here about hunting sheep. And obviously, you know, you talk about the days of, you know, $2,000 or $3,000 for a

sheep hunt back in the day. Right. You know what I mean? And those days are so far gone, it doesn't even seem real. And sheep hunts now are expensive. That's, it is unfortunate. Obviously, wages and everything else have gone up too. But it's still, it's not easy to, if you're a wannabe sheep hunter, it isn't easy. But there's a way. And it takes a plan. It takes a mindset to say, I'm going to do it somehow. You obviously can't overstep your means. And every family situation is a little bit different at different times throughout their life. But when there's a will, there's usually a way to figure it out. Or you have your name in the hat and enough raffles and state drawings and things like that, that something's going to happen. And you'll start, it'll start. You know, it will. Good, good things will happen to you. That's right. And so, it's what I tell kids. You got to have a plan.

You can't be involved in everything. You just got to have a plan and stick with it and, and be determined, you know. And I just told a kid, a boy the other day, he said, do you have to be wealthy? And I said, no. And you just, I'm not far from being wealthy as you could ever get. I just, I told him I hunted up a lot of new cars. Yeah. And they've been rested down anyway, so it doesn't make any difference. I've got sheep, you know. That's right. Memories to go with it all. Oh, boy. And memories mean more than anything. That's right. It's a great thing. And, you know, really, it's the greatest sports and hunting there could ever be. And the most renewable resource that they are, you know. That's right. And people don't understand that. You know, it's like farming or anything else. You harvest and put back. You get back. You'll have more next year. That's right.

Well, Jim, I really appreciate your time. And thanks again. We'll put another, we'll put a write-up for the readers that maybe aren't able to listen to this podcast for whatever reason. We'll do a write-up about some of the stuff that we've talked about today in the magazine. But I appreciate your time. You've got a wealth of knowledge, wealth of experience. And most of all, it's your attitude. It's infectious. I mean, you know, I was able to, you know, with me and Jason and Jeff and Chris, help a gentleman of your same age last year in Arizona. Finally drew his, he had 28 or 9 points and drew his Arizona desert tag. And that finished his Grand Slam at 79 years old. John Macaluso from Pennsylvania. And it was an awesome experience. And so I, you know, guys like John and guys like you give us all something to strive to be like.

I mean that because, you know, we all, you know, we all are dealt our own circumstances in life. You've dealt through your share, no question. But I hope I'm sheep hunting at 79 years old. I know that. Well, you just got to do everything you can yourself. And don't depend on somebody else, you know. Take care of you. And you just got to think about your health and all the consequences. My dad always said a thing. And he got killed many, many, many years ago. And I was pretty young and got killed in an accident. But anyway, he always said, think, think, think all the time. It was a consequence for every action. And I just always remember that because you think of that and that keeps you doing stupid things, you know. Yeah. Well, thanks a lot again for joining us. Okay. And have a great day, Jim. Appreciate your time. Thank you very much. You guys be careful. Thank you. Bye. You bet. Bye.

Also today I want to give a shout out to Red Rock Precision. If you're looking for a new rifle setup for this coming fall, give Kurt and the guys at Red Rock Precision a call. 801-425-6574. Great guns. Great setup. Multiple optic setups with them. But they flat out kill. Know what they're building. Or you can visit them on the web at redrockprecision.com. I'd like to also give a shout out today. The sponsor of this podcast is Outdoor Edge Knives and Tools. Great sponsor of us here at Epic Outdoors. We've actually got an Epic Outdoors series of their razor light knife. You can check them out on the web at outdooredge.com or any of their products. If you have interest in them, you can usually check them out online or give them a call at 1-800-447-3343. Replaceable knife blades that are blades that are not going to break on you. Very durable. Awesome knives.

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