EP 117: Which State has the Best Draw System?

Having your name in the hat, even though the odds are long, every hat that you can afford to be in. It takes a lot to stay on top of some of these states and some of the changes that have been implemented this year and to their draw systems and how they work and anything to do with Western big game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors podcast powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody, Jason Carter, John Peterson, Chris Peterson, Jeff John, and Adam Bronson here coming at you from Southern Utah here in Cedar City. Doing a little bit of a podcast, we're kind of shooting from the hip. Chris tries to give us an outline and we look at it and who knows where we go. Deviate from the start. But we did have a couple of things we wanted to talk about, mostly about the state draws since we're all right in the middle of the draw process applying for tags like it's our job, which it is. Before we get started, we want to thank Under Armour for sponsoring this podcast. They sponsor us and all we do. We appreciate them. If you ever need any good gear, go to UA.com and you can find everything. Of course, your wife finds lots of gear on there too, whether it be hunting or not.

So anyway, they've got everything start to finish for all your hunting needs, lifestyle needs, whatever. So, all right, let's get started with this thing. Where are we going to start? Bronson, kick us off here. I don't know. We've been teasing each other a little bit on what we're doing. Of course, you know, Jeff, he wants to keep quiet on what he's applying for. Chris, he divulged a little something something today. Chris never divulges anything. Chris doesn't divulge. He's probably the quietest part. We whipped Chris hard. We whipped him hard last podcast. We got to give him a break this time. We spurred him pretty good about a few things. But anyway, it's just. Shed dogs. That's all I remember. Hashtag shed dogs. Oh, now it's coming back to me. I was a little slow picking that up.

So, it's basically in the middle of it right now. We're in the busiest time of year for applying. There are Colorado deadlines this next week. That's on our minds first and foremost. But right behind it, you got Nevada. You got Montana moose, sheep, and goat. Idaho moose, sheep, and goat. Kansas. And so, it's just. It's coming really hard and really fast right now. And it feels like. I think we're. What maybe prompted a few discussion is. Man. It takes a lot to stay on top of some of these states. And some of the changes that have been implemented this year. And to their draw systems. And how they work. And you know. What each state's doing right. And what we like about it. What each state maybe isn't. And what we either don't like. Or maybe how we try to take advantage of one system or another. In general, I guess. Wouldn't you say, guys. We like the variety. Variety, they say. Is what.

Variety is the spice of life. That's what I was fishing for right there. You picked up what I put down. But. But we do like it. I mean. If every state was a preference system like Colorado. Why even apply? If every. Every state was. You know. Completely random. It would get old too. Because people like me. Especially. I'm not especially lucky. And. I would never draw. Points do gain you some advantage. In some of the states that have point systems. But. There are some that are better than others. Yeah. I think part of it is. Adam. We were talking to a guy. And he was disgruntled with the Colorado system. Thinking how bad it was. Never get a tag in his lifetime. And we're looking at it like. We can get a tag every single year. You can plan. For deer. As a non-resident. Deer at least. Yeah. As a non-resident. You can't complain about that. Every single year.

I can go to Colorado as a non-resident. If you want. You can't even hardly do that in a Utah general deer. No. No. You can't. As a resident. Yeah. As a resident of Utah. Yeah. You're not. Unless you got dedicated hunter. And you're locked in for three years. Your lifetime license is what some of us have. But you're nice. But if you're just entering the draw as a. Normal person.

Okay. Normal people. Normal people walking down the street. Okay. Keep going. Keep going with this.

And yeah. Your odds are 50-50 in most places. You need a point. To guarantee one. Yeah. It's a preference. Much like Colorado. So yeah. Our rebuttal with him is. Well geez. If you only want to hunt. You know. The northeast. Or northwest corner of Colorado for elk. Yeah. You're right. You're wasting your time. I get that. If you want to hunt 44 deer. Third or fourth season. I get that. But we don't view Colorado that way. We really view it as. Go as often as you can. There's a variety of ways to do that. Whether it be. Second choice tags. Turn back tags. Easy to draw. Tags on zero to one. Two points. There's a few guys. Even in Colorado. Killing like 340, 350 bulls. On over the counter type tags. And so Colorado has. Like you said Adam. The northwest corner. Absolutely. One tag in your life. If that. Most guys will never get it in their life. You know.

Because you've got to apply for so many years. And it is preference. Guys with more points have preference. Over guys with less points. And that's how it works for deer elk and antelope. Sheep is a weighted point system after three. So once you get three. That's the max you can get as far as preference points. Then you've got a weighted bonus point. And you do have decent shot. We have the odds listed in our publication. Epic Outdoors Magazine. As well as on our website. So if you're at work. You don't have the magazine. You can obviously look up drawing odds. For any and all units. That we can apply for. In all the states. So anyway. Kind of a newer feature. But having said that. We list the odds with number of people. That had three preference. And then after that. The weighted bonus points will come into effect. But you can't really calculate those.

Your random number is going to be divided. By your weighted point system. Close one. Yep. And that's. Who knows what that is. And that begs a whole other discussion. On whether opting out of that point. Is worthwhile. It's up for debate. I mean it's hard to maybe quantify. If you've got a bunch of weighted points. Already in the draw. Maybe just enter a draw. And call it a day. Don't pay the extra hundred points. Don't pay the hundred bucks. You're in at nine bucks. Plus your eighty one small game. Kind of funny. Everybody's asking us about this small game license. Let's just call it a hunting license. You have to get it. Either that or turkey. And turkey's $151. Or whatever. And so it's obviously cheaper. To get a small game license. And that's the prerequisite. To apply. And so. Interesting thing. Adam and I have kids. John you have kids. You can apply your kids. And not.

And get them a point. And they don't charge them the hundred dollar point fee. Kind of cool. And the hunting license. The small game license we're talking about. It's like a buck twenty five. A buck fifty. And then. And if you're young or old. Let's just say young or old. You don't have to do that stamp. Conservation stamp. So anyway. You're sitting at. Very cheap. To get points. Get them the three points. Basically. Get them the three points. And then after that. For the rest of their life. They can decide. Until they turn 18. Then decide. Yeah. Once they have to pay that. But one thing about Colorado. Like. So for the deer. It's a great state. For elk. They do need more options. And we're hearing rumblings. That maybe. During this. Next five year season structure. And whole. Revampment. They're looking at maybe adding some more elk units. I haven't followed that super closely.

But we know that that's on the table. That kind of always is. But. There's a huge bottleneck on elk. We know that. And if you got minimal points. You know. We do list units in our mag. That you can draw. With zero to one or two points. Five points for archery. You know. And one to two for rifle. Bull. Some of the 66's. The 67's. Or something like that. And maybe kill a 300 plus bull. Occasionally. A 340 or 50 plus bull. Yes. I said it. Adam Bronson. I said it. You go over there and smoke a 350. Huh. Or what was it? 355. I can't have a few points. That was not one of those units though. Well no. It was a 10 to 15 point tier. Yeah. I had 10 points. Yes. You're in a 40. 360 bull. 360 bull. On public. Now a lot of guys would go there. Depending on the weather. And get their butt kicked. I get it. That's what we do in Colorado. We get our butts kicked and at times we do well.

And a lot of that is based off of weather. And if you hit the weather just right and you get lucky why you're going to smoke a giant. Or at least have that chance. And so. Anyway. That's what prompted. We love Colorado. But having said that. We love Arizona. We freaking. You know. I don't know. Nevada's a little stingy with their tags. We love the idea of squaring your points. Love it. Squaring your points is all exciting. Right? Yes. Five times five is 25 names in the hat versus five. But once you start get rolling and it's a. What do you call it Adam? What's an old point system? A well established point system. You've got tons and tons and tons of people with 15 and 20 points. You know. And then you start. And then when they add all five choices. And we've talked about this at length. Adam. We've talked about this. You and I as well. Five choices is killing the odds in Nevada. Yes.

They are. It's a. You know. You look at. On deer. It can get distributed throughout the state to some extent. But like. You look at desert sheep with roughly 20 units. Most people put five. And so you've got the whole pool of non-residents putting in five choices. There's going to be a lot of overlap in there. Versus. Hey. You had to pick one unit. Or let's say two. I mean. We're not like saying. Two would be bad. But it'd be. One or two is much better than five. Two is better than five. One's the best case scenario. Forces you to choose. Yeah. What do you want? Yeah. It's kind of like Utah General. When they went to taking your points. On any choice. On any choice. It's like. Do you want to go for an archery and have good odds. But you only get a bow tag. Or do you want to stick to a rifle. And maybe wait one to three years to get a tag. That's right. Yeah.

Because you could get a leftover tag or whatever. They still look at everybody's first before they go to the second. But if you draw your second. You're going to lose your points on general. But Adam. I want to make sure. We want to clarify. That is for general. Is you're going to gain a point on the limited entry draws. So. Well. And while we're on that topic. We get a lot. Every state is different in how they do their draw. And we get a lot of questions that people mix up. The two choices. Three choices. Five choices. From state to state. You know. They'll talk about Colorado. Colorado lists four choices on your application there. And they think they can put four trophy units. And maybe you have a chance at all four. No. Your first choice is the only one in a state like Colorado or Utah. That get looked at. Wyoming's another one like that.

That get looked at before they go to the second choice. Montana. Yeah. You can't draw a second choice unless those units were undersubscribed. Totally different and unique in New Mexico. Arizona where you get two. Nevada where you get five. Just keep that in mind. When they're taking points from you in those states. It's because you draw any of your five choices. And they get looked at all before they go to the next applicant. When you don't lose your points in states like Colorado or Wyoming for drawing your second or third. It's because the state wants to sell tags. And if you put a unit as a second choice that was 100% for all the first choices. They want you to gobble up all those tags that quote people don't really want. And so they're willing to let you clean them up. But take a tag and build a point. But just don't confuse those state to state.

A lot of people too will confuse the fact that they put four choices on an application in Colorado or Utah. And think that oh yeah. What does my first, second, third, and fourth choice need to be. And they all want, you know, 380 Bulls in Utah or, you know, put units in Colorado that take 15 plus points down choice one through five. That's right. Can we grind on Nevada for just a second here? Yeah. You made mention about it. But you really think about that. And I don't really want to pick on Nevada. Just completely. Well, we love Nevada. We love Nevada. Let's be clear. Yes. Let's be clear. We want a tag in Nevada. And that's why. The odds of all five choices is the problem. Yes. And so a guy like me, okay, I've drawn a tag in the last, I've drawn three tags in the last five, six years, right? Well, I'm coming into one or two points yet, but I'm going for, you know what I'm going for.

Easy, easy, easy draw stuff, right? But now think, think about that though. I'm going for easy draw stuff because I'm drawn. My name's in the hat in 241 to 245. Which ticks me off. Which ticks you off because you're sitting there with 18 points and other guys with 20 points. You're willing to go to, let's, let's just say. I'm throwing a Hail Mary and I'm ruining the odds. Area 16, right? Like, yeah. Whatever. You're willing to do the 161, 164, something like that. Yes. But if you got lucky, I'll take the 240s from somebody that would put the 240s as their first and only choice. All of us guys, just like me, are crushing those higher point units or those better units because we throw it on there. That's right. And having said that, if you personally, you would have to choose, you know, and depending on what you got in Colorado or Utah or Plan and other. There's also places.

Is how aggressive I'd be that year. Is how aggressive you'd be that year in Nevada. And you'd get my name out of the hat for those, for those. I mean, I really would. Like this year, I want people that really care about us. And I'm not saying you don't care. But let's just say only people that live and die for that unit would apply for you as a first choice. So I'm going to ask you this question, Jason. Let's do a hypothetical. And this is. If you had. I observe the right to not answer. You can't plead the fifth. I'm not reading Miranda rights here. So anyway, if you had to choose one deer unit in Nevada, and we know that 240s, you're fond of that, and some of the others, would one of those be your one and only choice? No, maybe not. Probably not. Because only in the year that you were so jammed up that you couldn't fit something else, okay, put it that year. But you want to get attacked.

I want to get attacked. So, like, people out there would be surprised. I mean, I'm doing second and third and fourth choices in Colorado. Yes. I personally am doing it. Because you can turn those back and get a refund and still gain my point. So I can get a refund if something happens, but why not? It gives you an option. It gives you an option. And if you're tight everywhere else and busy, I'll go hunt for three or four days in Colorado and see if I can hit a home run. But in Nevada, I would say I wouldn't put probably the elite units very often. Maybe an archery. But even then, those odds are terrible. Well, the thing about what we've found in Nevada, and you guys know this, Adam. You know it. I mean, Jeff, you've been out there. Chris has killed a freaking wide, crazy, freaking awesome deer. You can kill a 200-inch or, and I just throw 200 out there like it's nothing, right?

So let's talk about, like, and that's not true. Solid 180 plus. Solid 180 plus. I would say every unit. Almost every unit. I mean, maybe not like the 204 or something. Desert. But I'll have somebody call me and light me up over that and show me a picture of a 220 that's killed out of some swamp over there. I hope they don't. Near a refuge. You know what I mean? Like, with a short-range web. I don't know. You know? So anyway, there's, there are. Horned shorderneers with the horned shorderneer tags in your back pocket. There are, there are, there are, there are big deer in any, almost anywhere you go. And like I was talking to a good buddy of mine that's a big, a big deer fanatic. You know, he's like, man, things, the odds are look terrible, this and that. And I said, yeah, and it's going to push us out. And then we're going to find that 141 has a freaking giant in it.

And the 150s are going to have giants. And all of a sudden you realize the whole state's going to have giants. You know? And, and, and all this time, you know, we've been concerned about the traditionally good units that produce the most deer in the book. And there's another whole subject. Thinking, talking about deer in the book and the numbers. You know, when you have, let's say Lincoln County, Nevada, Lincoln and Eagle County, Colorado, right? That attracts the trophy hunters. The trophy hunters are hiring guides. The trophy hunters are putting time and money and energy into it and treating it like a once in a lifetime tag. So then success begats success, so to speak. It's a snowball. All of a sudden you got Lincoln County continuing to produce because it got the name and now people are putting more into it. Versus these other units, it's like general Utah. Well, it's a general tag.

I'm not going to put a lot into it. So we don't have the teams of hunters hiring, teams of guides hiring. You know what I'm saying? And so you got a few big deer slipping through the cracks. And I think you have that in other places outside Lincoln County. Lincoln County is going to continue to produce. We're sinking the resources in. But I guess the main take home is, yeah, is if, if you didn't have the ability to put five choices, there would be few people. The odds would get dramatically better on the better units. And that's not what I think we would be in favor of doing. It was just that would be a byproduct. But make people force what they really want. The archery, some of the mid-season hunts would be probably better odds. Everything should get better odds. I mean, really, if you can have one choice and force people what they want, it's like almost every other state does.

You've got to really think about what you want. Yeah. You know, don't put archery on Charleston. Yeah. How about that? That's right. Well, you know, on a year like this, I really want to get a tag. I'm going to probably apply. What are you going to do? In Nevada? I have no clue. But I'll probably go archery. No, no, no. Such a liar. No, I don't know yet. I don't know yet. But I'll probably go archery because I want to be more aggressive. I want to draw, right? Because this is a good year for it. Good moisture. Like, it's good timing. So anyway, I'm going to be a little bit more aggressive than I normally would be in Nevada. And if I only had one choice. Does Angie know? Angie doesn't know.

Angie doesn't know. Has she checked the credit card statement from the last few purchases? No. When we applied for New Mexico. Oh, I guarantee you. She's checked all that. It's already on the spreadsheet for the year of how much I'm spending on hunting. I'm sure. It's funny. They see the outflow. They act like it's not coming back. Like, well, that was $3,000 for a sheep. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's what they see. And visually, on a credit card statement that gets paid off every month, that is a gulp. That is a big gulp, you know, when you apply for New Mexico. Luckily, Colorado here, you know, yeah, we got to buy that license. It's $500 last night. I did it for my, and I have two youth. I'm still over $500. And that's not counting what's going to crush me for sheep point fees later on in June. Yeah. So, I mean, it went up. Well, and you're not getting that back. You're not getting that.

No, that's gone. That's gone. That's not coming back like New Mexico is. Do good things with that, Colorado. Do good things. Your annual donation, too. Send me a tag. Yeah. But do other good things with that, too. So, I think we love all the states, right? We've covered that. We love every system out there. Let's just change every system. A couple things I think we should change. This, having been able to draw multiple sheep in the same state in your lifetime, I think, is kind of somewhat wrong in the respect that tags are such a premium nowadays. It's 21st century. Things need to change. Like, you can, you know, multiple sheep. You've got a five-year wait on Rockies in Colorado. Deserts are one slant. Wyoming. Yeah, Wyoming. Another one. You know, how about Nevada? Yeah. We've got guys that are dying with points. You know, literally. Residents. I feel bad for them. And then.

Other guys are drawn to their third desert. Yeah. Other guys are. So, anyway, I know those are sensitive subjects, especially guys that have killed a couple of them and family members that have killed a couple of them. Guys that have killed one that are continuing to apply for their second. But let's just be honest. Yeah. Those are really once-in-a-lifetime tags. You're taking tags from your kids. Yeah. You know? I mean, it's hard. Well, speaking of that, here's a controversial one. I would outlaw sheep tags for kids under 25. Oh, John. You brought that up. Oh, my gosh. John's brought that up. He's got the picture block up there. Okay, so I drew a bison tag when I was 15 years old. Okay? I couldn't drive, so I couldn't do it justice. I was limited to what, you know, my dad could do. And he was in and around his work schedule and whatnot.

And truly, I remember it, but not like it was yesterday. You know what I mean? If I would have had the tag nowadays, I would have maybe appreciated it a little bit more. Absolutely. You know what I mean? But having said that, it was an awesome opportunity. But let's get kids hooked on hunting with deer and elk opportunities and not on tags. Let's take the quality opportunities away from them. Yes. And let's give them pheasants. So what would you say? You'd say it had to be 18? John's furry dog only for kids. I would say, I mean, I guess you'd go 18. I would say 30, but, you know. 30 years old? Yeah. Holy. So there's guys. John, I wouldn't have drawn my sheep tag. If there weren't. That ram wouldn't be on the wall? Yeah, I don't think you should have had it. I would have had it. That's a joke. People have high class for all. Let's say 20 then. I don't know what it is. 14 bad marriages.

But there's guys dying. 13 illegitimate kids. There's guys dying at 80. But what about, can they build points before that? That'd be fine. But there's guys dying at 80 who aren't getting a sheep tag and have tons of points. I don't think that's right. Some things in life aren't fair. Got quite there for a second. I don't know. Sometimes you have a bad lot and you never draw shoes. I know. Unfortunate. That's why you go to Colorado. It's preference, guys. But I think mainly is a kid's not going to appreciate what he has. At 15. There's part of it. And that gets into the mentoring program and all that, which I love. I appreciate because some people say, why is a kid going to jump to the front of the line and take a mentoring tag? Well, they didn't. The person that drew the tag burned all their points to get it. And they got to choose. And they gave it to. Who wants to kill the animal.

The downside I don't like is we're applying grandma and mom and everybody else that doesn't hunt to boost points. It's incapable, pretty much. To boost points. And point average or whatever we're going to call it. Point guard once and twice. So I do like the fact that grandma or grandpa needs to be there with the kids. So you have to be there in the field with them. Like Utah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then if you want to point boost, that's fine. But, you know, you're not going to turn your tag back and get all your points back. You know what I mean? Like Nevada. You can point boost. And then you can turn that tag back. The high point person, grandma, gets to turn her tag back in. Keep all the points plus one and continue to help point boost everybody else in the family. Yeah. They shut that down in Utah with one person turning their tag in. All of them have to do it.

Arizona's got the one-time point guard thing. You can do it once. Do it once. But still, people are doing it twice down there. Oh, yeah. And with no intention of hunting the tag, which, how do you police everything? But I guess, John, what we're saying is we feel a little bit of your pain in some of these situations that don't seem fair. However, if I was 18, my opinion would probably be different. But John's just like, I'm just coming of age that I want to be the only guy in the draw. Sean's going to walk in here with the brass knuckles and take care of things. I love it. Well, when you're looking at one sheep tag, potentially in some states, and then you think, like Nevada, it's not guaranteed. I think that kind of, let's talk about having your name in every hat that you can have it in.

And I think, you know, it's one of those things, Adam, like we looked at, well, and we teased Jeff about it with the credit card. You know, applying for, you know, $3,200 in New Mexico for a sheep. Is having your name in the hat, even though the odds are long, but having every hat that you can afford to be in, you know what I mean? That's reasonable. Now, the refundable portion of the New Mexico is a lot. So the non-refundable is minimal. So it's worth it. So, Adam, like you spent $500 last night. How did that feel? And if you do it times X amount of states, but I think it's when it's manageable, the fees are manageable. Have your name in the hat. Honestly, we've been looking at like the Nevada sheep odds. I mean, the odds in some of these, you know, raffles, so to speak, or like our membership drive or whatever, 10 times better than some of this other stuff. It's a show game.

We've joked with that in the past when we had our wives on the podcast that what you're talking about, Jeff, like, honey, that $10,000 is not gone. What do you mean? It says a minus $10,000 in that statement right here. It's gone. No, it's not. It's coming back when, how, why. You explain it. They call it the show game. It's a little bit of that. I'll admit. But if you just let them put up with it long enough, Jeff, they kind of quit bugging you about it. That's been my experience. They just know you're not going to change. My wife's building a divorce case against me. I don't know. I don't know. She doesn't grind me out too much, but I'm like, I know it's accounted. If they're not, trust me. She is. They're building a case. They all are. They're putting a deposit with a lawyer just in case, you know. I'm just going to prepay this lawyer fees.

All right. Let's move on. Let's move on. We talked about some of the states that are what they're doing right and maybe what we'd like to see changed or things like that. But what, I guess from a resident perspective, a non-resident perspective, let's talk about it from that. I mean, there are some states that if you're a resident, that's a much bigger plus. And that sounds stupid because every state you're better off as a resident. I don't know. Utah, we only get applied for two species. Utah is probably one example. We can't crush everything. But our odds are better than the non-resident odds because of that. And I think this is a prime time, I guess, since we brought that up, Adam, is to talk about, you know, change in a state. Utah changed. We're going to charge a non-refundable hunting license fee to non-residents. So we need to make it worth it.

We've got to keep them applying or we're going to lose a lot of money. So their answer was. Let them get a point for every species. And that sounds great until you realize, look at the antelope odds in Utah. Yeah. They're terrible. And they shouldn't be. In the past, who picked antelope over deer and elk as a non-body? The only guys that really wanted an antelope. Oh, yeah. Like five percent. Truck chasers. Who would do that? So now you look at the odds for antelope with 10 years of people doing it. They're unbelievably terrible. But Utah listened to the residents. We didn't want that. So we chose to be more restricted to keep our odds good. This is one of my points with Nevada. Nevada might be scared to change. Listen to the non-residents. Listen to change our side. If the residents want to keep applying for five choices, I don't care. Apply for five choices. You know what I mean?

Allow us to apply for five. But really, the first one's looked at. And then they go to the next guy. Then they'll go to the next guy. And then we'll clean up with choices two through five and gain a point if we draw choices two through five. That'll still clean up all the tags. And so, you know, change. I think sometimes we can split the system, change it for non-residents, leave it the same for residents, whatever. And Utah did that. Arizona changed their system. You know, allowing for up to half the tags being able to be drawn in the max point tier versus half on the random ones. And if there's one tag, it goes random. Yeah. And so sometimes there's need for change. Yeah. That was long overdue. I mean, it was most people weren't even in the draw for the best elk and the best deer tags in Arizona back when all of them, all the non-resident quota was being met in the maximum point draw.

So it needed to change. It's just hard when it goes for so long. And those that are the last hundred or so people in the deer max point pulls non-residents. I feel for them. I do. It feels unfair because those that were in max had, you know, all of the non-resident quota until they changed it. Now you're only getting three tags for 13B instead of six or seven. Yeah. So it doesn't feel fair, but this is a little bit, we're buying into systems and not even on faith, just with what's in front of us now. Stuff could change. This isn't like a house with a 30 year contract, you know, on a payment plan. That's not going to change. You know what you're getting into. Stuff can change. Colorado is a classic example of that. You had to buy in, write a paper app, buy in fees up front for moose, sheep, and goat for 15, 18 years, whatever it was, 20 almost. Yeah. Then boot and switch.

And then all of a sudden. You used to write credit card checks because they would take a personal check. Yeah, they would, you know. Yeah. Back when we were broke, you can do that. Zero percent credit card check, write them for all of them. Yeah. Get it back. Did that for Arizona. And I don't want to, I didn't want to see that to change, but at the same time, we're freaking year 2019. Yeah, you got to adapt. You mean we got to write a personal check. You're filling out this. With black ink and all caps and then a certain size envelope, are you going to reject me? So last year, they let everybody in for nothing, didn't have the $100 point fee. Everybody comes in, everybody whines. Whoa, whoa, there's too many people. So now they charge $100. Everybody's going, whoa, it's expensive. Oh, we'll do the, we'll modify it. Well, you can opt out of that if you want.

And now the people are pissed because the people with three and plus or whatever can enter the draw for nine bucks. And plus the 81 small game, but that's good for the deer. Now you're going to do it anyway. Yeah. So I don't know. What do you do? You just got to react and adapt. And I guess the diversity of these systems, you got to find angles. You got to look at things that how it can maybe work to your advantage if there is a possibility of it. You know, use the states that you can force the draw to your advantage to force the draw. And then, you know, make the most judgmental decision you can on the other states whether it's worthwhile to apply or not. I think one of the key things we need to discuss and talk about is just how important it is, just like what we're talking about, when we've watched, you guys have all seen it. We've watched change happen. It's slow.

Maybe a little slower than we want. Right? But we watched change happen, and you'll wish you had the points. You'll wish you had the points. I wish I continued to gain points in Wyoming for sheep when they went from $7 point fee and keep cranking up through. $75. Now $150. I wish, right? I wish. I gave up on Arizona. I would have had a Rocky. I would have had a Rocky. Adam, you would have too. I mean, so there's things we look back and we go, okay, you know, I wish I'd have done that. I didn't see that change coming. So continue to gain points where you can afford to gain points. Well, we talked to an individual the other day as well that, I don't know, they had eight or ten points for elk in Colorado. I can't remember how many. Let's call it eight. But a mid, you know, a low to mid number. Didn't know where to use them. And as a non-resident, that doesn't give you a lot of options.

There's some options that you can do depending on your weapons. But the elite, what you would label as Colorado's best, are still, you got to have 22 to 27 to even have a chance. Well, they met an individual and, you know, I think guided them on a hunt or something like that. And the gentleman owned a ranch in southern Colorado in a unit that took two points to draw. But they're killing 350 bulls. All right? Yeah. Down stuff near Trinidad. All right? So applied, went down there, had one of the best elk hunts of his life, gave up 10 points to do it. But you never know when something might change, you know, in a point system. Glad you're prepared to take advantage of the opportunities that might come. I talked to a couple guys today that called. We'd already done their deer applications for Colorado. And they said, well, we want to apply. We've got, we don't have the elk point.

We don't have any elk points, we don't think. And we can't draw what we want. But there's a unit that takes at least one point to two points to draw for elk. All right? And, but maybe we'll try to get a turn back tag. It was for an archery elk tag. And I said, well, okay, you can do that. Can you list it as a second choice anyway? And I said, well, it was only 17% chance last year was zero points. I'll put it as a second choice. It doesn't turn anything. You're not getting it. And I says, but let me look you guys up. I looked them up. One of them had two points. One of them had one. Both of them had nine for deer. They quit elk seven to eight years ago. But they had two elk and one deer, or two elk and one elk. Because they don't print your points for 10 years in Colorado. I made their day. Now they can put it first choice and draw that elk hunt. And go because they had a point.

They met an outfitter over there that can take them on an archery elk hunt in a place that they want to go to. They want to kind of ground truth it last year. Classic example. These guys are from Texas. They're just retired and are wanting to hunt to a couple elk hunts a year. Just opportunity hunts. And they had two and one point as residual from seven, eight years ago. I had a guy apply it. I went and looked at how many points he had. He just barely hired us to do his apps. And I went into the system. And in 2011 was his last point that he got. And he had six deer points. Still. Boom. Still hasn't. Still hasn't. Because it's 10 years. So I'm like, boom. That is awesome. We're going to resurrect those points plus add one. Everybody's happy. But at the same time, look at how many points you would have today and what those options would be. You're giving up 190 incher.

You know what I mean? For nothing. It was nothing. He gave up seven or eight points. It was just the price of the non-refundable application fee. And so you can tell, anybody that's listening to this, you can tell these states, they are complicated. It's tough to stay on top of it. We're bantering every day, all day long. This is our job to apply and research and write the publication and whatnot. But it's tough. And so anyway, I'm just glad I live near big deer country. You know, if I was a Wyoming resident, I'd be a little frustrated. However, a lot of those are Wyoming residents. They get a tag every year. They're general. Every year I can go hunting. And I might kill a giant. They are not managed for giants. Talk about things that we would change. Man, I'd love to see Wyoming address that a little bit. Because, you know, I mean, in units that we are spending six, seven points to draw.

Call it region G. G, yes. That's what you're talking about. Those guys are just buying a tag going every year and crushing it on the weekends. But there's a price for that. A region G is nowhere near the quality it should be or could be. It could be. But the residents are speaking loud, Jeff. They're saying, as a general rule, we want to hunt every year. That's what they're saying. And so, you know, then we get to decide, well, do we apply there? Do we give them our money for the point? May or may not. But it feels like I even talked to a guy today. He just bounced out of Wyoming. He's like, I'm done. I'm not, you know, he's like, he's been doing the deer, he's been doing the deer, elk, and sheep. Yeah. And he's finally like, dude, I'm not doing it. I'm not doing it no more. I'm not paying that money for the sheep. I'm not.

He's, I think he might be keeping the moose is what he said, something like that. But everything else, he's like, I'm out. Well, people are getting a point. I can't do it. They're getting a point for $150 for sheep, for example, and it doesn't help them in the random draw, and they'll never catch the max draw. So what do you buy it for? And it's a forced freaking outlay of the $150 when you go to apply. It's not an option. Plus your 2.5% now because it's online only. So there's another $225. I think we did the math just to put in for sheep hunt. Not including front in the fees. Front the money and then lose $225. So if you're going to apply, if you're going to pay the $150, at least be in the draw. At least have the $1 in $300 shot or $1 in $350. Don't do points only. It makes it, and not to plug, I guess, a service like ours at Epic Art Doors too much because

we're obviously a private business that are in business to do what we do, publish a magazine, strategize, help people get tags, go on hunts. But when you start talking about the kind of money that these states are charging, you're talking $225 to apply for a sheep hunt in Wyoming. Yeah. $100 to join our service for the year. You could probably have just a couple of key things that you learn or understand better by subscribing to Epic Outdoors and using our service that you would save three times out of now. Dude, I saved a guy $150 for sheep and moose in Wyoming. Yeah. You know, he has no points. Why would you do that? Why would you gain a point for nothing? I mean, it's not going to help you. Wait until next year and put in the draw for the first time. Yeah, because that $300 is not going to. The point is dumb. You're always going to have the same chance of coming.

And I don't see change coming in Wyoming. They are slow to change. They don't want it. They can't even, we can't even get limited draw units in places like Region G that have the most amazing genetics in the freaking world or close to it. And so, and they already have 2575 split where we have random tags. We have random tags. We have max point tags. What do you guys want? I mean, so I don't see a lot of change coming. I would not give them my money. And the residents, I, you know, and I get that they're, you know, on the top end, they're protecting the vote from the residents. I mean, that's who puts the guys in office and makes changes. So I get it. And every state has that. I mean, we were a little more passionate about some of the stuff we are close to home here in Utah. We're a little bit more, I guess, passionate about all the other states too, because we, we play it hard.

We research it hard. We write about it hard, but at the same token, we understand. We, we understand residents should have more say in their own state. We get it. But just like the Utah system for non-residents and residents, you can have differences. If something is more appealing for non-residents for one way, shape or form or another, maybe bettering drying odds and make you feel like the money you're spending every year actually might get you something is more of a true investment instead of just a black hole. That's kind of what we're talking about. Some of the changes that can make it make the fees that we're all having to pay that are going up, feel like that is either more worthwhile or I'm actually going to get something for it. We realize I'm not talking for guarantees, but it sure feel better in Nevada if I felt like the odds were better than what they have.

Well, we're so passionate about Nevada because the quality is amazing compared to the amount of resource they have at the arid state. It's, I mean, you know, but it's amazing. You're out there in the middle of nowhere all by yourself and how cool is that? You know, but I just, I think what we're driving home is you have to play all these states. You have to play. You have to play them all, even though, you know, if we just played in Utah, I'd have one elk to my name. You know what I mean? I've got one. One. I've got one. One big bull. I got one when I was 15. Maybe it was a Raghorn 5. Yeah. Backside of LaSalle Mountains. Came in from Colorado. Yeah. I just learned about that. And you drew one big bull tag. And I drew one big bull tag. And then I drew one big bull. And then we moved on to deer. And I got a deer and you're still waiting on your deer. 10 or 15 points.

But people could contend that, yeah, but Adam, there's general tags in Utah. General elk tags in Utah. What's your answer to that? I've got better things to do. That's my personal thing. That's me. Don't, don't. I just, I've got something better to do. That's well put. It is. How many bulls have you killed in Utah, Jeff? Just one. I've only killed one. Where, when, and how? It was Range Creek, Pack Frickin'. General. No, it was when it was limited entry. Oh, for five years or so they were. Yeah, before they got all, they got kind of weird in Range Creek. They started doing weird stuff. Are you applying for elk now? I am. Because you drew the Henry's tag? Yeah. I'm in elk. Chris, how about you? How many elk have you killed in Utah? I've been doing deer points ever since I ever ran. So because you're a resident, you can't, you can't apply elk? Ever since I could apply, I've been doing deer.

And so I've never even had a chance to put in for elk. So if you weren't, if you weren't playing the other states, I mean, how are you going to kill an elk? No. That's what I'm, that's what we're talking about. That's what we're driving home is. You've got to, if you want to hunt, it's not, it's a different era and it's changing year by year. And every five years, it feels like dramatically to, to have, have Western hunting opportunities. You have to be playing the draws. If you've got plenty of money and you can book your hunts and buy them. Okay. That's fine. But you, that's a difference. We're not talking about hunting your home state or hunting one state or hunting the closest state to you, like a Colorado or a New Mexico.

If you're from, you know, the East, those are the two states that probably most people target in the Midwest or the Eastern part of the U S because you get to them first. Right. But outside, you still can't force your way in there. A deer is a little bit different over the counter. Archery elk and second and third rifle elk in Colorado. You can do stuff like that, but you got to have something, you got to have some diversity and have a rotation or you're going to have a lot of years that you're going to have to spend money on the land or tag or, or just take a general over the season, over the counter tag and accept that that's my hunt for the year. Otherwise it takes some aggressive planning. It does. We've got, we've got a significant portion of our, of our listeners on the podcast that are in their twenties. So how do you know? And just from feedback. Oh, okay.

So talk to a lot of guys that are well past twenties, John. They're 30 and they're 60. I've talked to a lot of 20 year olds that want sheep tags. Okay, go ahead. Go ahead. Okay. My question is, but remember the twenties guys, you didn't want them to draw a sheep tag. No, I know. But a lot of those guys mean, I was just going off.

Sorry, John. But for those guys that are on a really tight budget and we're preaching, you got to do as many states as possible, build points. What's the minimum that you would do if you're on a tight budget and how would you do it? Check the December mag. Jason does a breakdown of all the must apply for states. We did that in December. It is true. And the magazine every month does break it down. I mean, just like if you read the December stuff, we didn't even cover the Colorado new changes. So, I mean, even then is a little bit outdated. The $81 license you got to buy now. They don't charge the $40 point fee for deer and elk in Colorado. So it's almost a wash this year to apply for deer and elk as it was last year, you know, because you had to pay the point fee. But I would say I'll take a stab at that.

If you want to hunt, I mean, if you're going to do Colorado for sure deer and you're going to buy a license, add elk for $9, you know, do deer and elk there. Wyoming, I'd probably say would be the next one. If you have a shorter term plan, if you're looking at general season elk or general season deer or moderate to draw, moderate to easier to draw deer, I'd say those would probably be the first couple. And then if you've got, if you can part with a couple hundred bucks in Idaho to buy their hunting license and apply there, they don't have a point system. But if you don't like that, yeah, you're limited to maybe a couple of those we just talked about, maybe a Montana general deer and elk combo. But the tradeoff of that, it's $1,000. So it's easy to draw, but it's $1,000 for a deer, $1,100 for a deer elk combo. I think it comes into a lot of personal preference. There is so much, I mean.

Variation. Oh, my gosh. Like, I personally would not go without Arizona. I wouldn't go without Colorado. I wouldn't go without Nevada. I wouldn't go without Wyoming elk. I think it's critical. I think for six points, Colton's up there smoking a 320 bull or something. The next elk. What do we, what can you, how long does it take to get that here in Utah or Nevada? I mean, you can't. We just went through it. Right. Three of us have killed elk in Utah. The other two haven't. Right. Once and a elk, you know. You're talking a mature, like, yes. We don't have connections to private land. I mean, you can hunt Utah in different places, you know, if you have access to private land and things like that. Or if you want to go hunt the Henry's or Zion or Rains Creek or UNS every year on general, you can do that. But, yeah. But, so, we're not talking, we're talking about good drawbacks.

But if you want to kill it, let's say that we have some guys that are deer only, you know. Deer, you know, big deer only. I mean, we would apply in Arizona, even though there's only a couple units that really produce. You might get an early kaybab hunt or something. But cost of entry is not horrible, horrible in Arizona. Colorado, no question. Nevada, no question. You know, probably do Utah. Yeah, if you do the general in Utah, it's more appealing. You will get something every two to three years out of that if you want to. And you get to go hunting. You get to go hunting and not sacrifice your limited entry points. So, if you don't have an interest in that, it's hard. Utah odds are terrible from a limited entry standpoint and once in a lifetime. So, yeah, there's just, it just, it varies so much. It varies so much.

Let's say you're young and you're looking at, you can probably afford to hunt your home state. And then what points would you be building for the future? Let's say, you know, you're going to, over time, have more and more funds, potentially. Well, Utah, you can't afford not to because it's so cheap. So, let's just say. So, Utah is going to be on your must. Like Adam said, $100. You can get a twofer on the Utah license if you watch it. Buy it the first year late and the second year spend it early. So, you don't have to spend the $65 two years. And Nevada is a 365-day license, but it's one. That license is only good per application period. Same with Colorado. I do Nevada and I do Colorado. Wyoming, probably. Yeah, Wyoming deer and elk, like Adam said. Antelope, especially. It's great for antelope. Just easy. You can draw in two or three years. You went out there. Yeah, first year.

Chase bucks with your kids. Yes. Pretty soon you're finding a general deer area you're going to go back. Absolutely. Pillage the countryside, you know. That's right. You bring back half the real estate. What did you say? You bought a lot over there by just bringing back the real estate. It was so muddy last year. You're going to pay taxes in Wyoming or something? Yeah, they're going to charge me property taxes. Pretty soon you're supporting the school system, which they badly need. Which maybe then I could become a resident and I can hunt a general anyway. So, there you go. And then same with Arizona. So, probably Arizona too. Yeah, those would be. You know, Arizona is kind of cool. I mean, you can do an archery every six years up on the Kaivab. You can do the early rifles on the Kaivab. Or you can just flat change. All of a sudden you want Coos deer one year. Boom. Yeah. 13 points.

You get the best Coos deer. I'm going to do late rifle elk all the time. From the get-go, you'll probably, within five or ten years, you're going to draw some late rifle. Five to ten is the sweet spot. Light rifle. Yes. I mean, there are some elite ones that are taking 12 to 14. But if you avoid those ones or put one of those as your first choice and something else just the middle of the road is an elk hunt, I mean, you're going to get something. Again, that's because the first two choices count before you go to the next guy. So, it's so integrated and it's so complex. Every state is so different. The quality is so different. The amount of points it takes to draw a certain good tag is so different. And the personal preferences. You almost need to hire a company to do that for you. Just saying. Call Jeff. Well, it also comes down to personal preferences.

If you're a diehard mule deer hunter, you know, and you don't care anything about elk, it changes stuff as well. There are some states that make art. If you're only a trophy mule deer hunter and you don't like elk, Arizona, it's a tougher sell. It's not a tough sell to apply because they've got incredible quality. But to spend roughly $200 a year for just a strip the rest of your life, it's hard to tell you. That's a wise investment. If you only want 200-inch mule deer and you don't play for sheep or antelope or elk in Arizona, it's tougher. So, there's caveats to everything. There is. Overall, a lot of ramble. Let's talk a little bit about maybe something upcoming. We can talk about something exciting. Let's talk about the shooting school with MOA. We've got an advertiser with us. That's MOARifles.com. You can check them out. They're out of Oregon at 541-526-1820.

We're going to go up there. A couple of guys here from the Epic Outdoors office is going to go up there. We're going to attend a shooting school June 6th. I think they've got six spots to sell. And it's going to be incredible. You're going to shoot out to 1,000 yards. It's a very scientific type school. You're going to learn a lot about shooting. I've had a lot of guys go and attend, and they feel like they could shoot long range before they went. And when they walk away, they're just super, super impressed. Those guys really know what they're doing. They've got a new rifle, the Ascent Rifle. It's under six pounds. It's a true half-minute MOA, 1,000-yard mountain rifle. And so, anyway, they're kind of promoting that. You'll find that in Epic Outdoors. You can read a little bit more about it. Of course, you can go to MOARifles.com.

I said that earlier, but it is available in a 6.5 PRC, 300 PRC in the 28 Nosler. So, anyway, we're kind of excited to have them on board. June 6th and 7th. So, check your calendars if you want to hang out with us there. And call them up and book your spot. Spend a day and a half. I think they pick you up. They feed you, lodge you. It's a real-life course. Out in the hills. Angles. Yeah, it's not just a gravel banked county shooting range. It's out in the hills. Call them up. They may make you a deal on buying a rifle as well as going to the course. Of course, you're not obligated to buy a rifle. But anybody and everybody can show up. Well, not really. First six guys. Yeah. All right. Very limited. Six guys. But they also have classes outside of the one that we're going to be at. So, that's worth mentioning. This one's reserved.

If that doesn't work for you, we got that week reserved, or that two-day period reserved. But they have other courses. If you're inquiring about it, if you always wanted to look at doing one of these western real-life situation shooting schools, that's a great one to consider. Yeah. Get on the list. There's six spots. The Epic Outdoors crew is going to be there. And probably bring a few items to give away as well, just for a few guys that show up. Let's talk a hunting story or two. Bronson did a coos deer hunt with his kid. Yeah. What a cool hunt that was. And luck of the draw. Going back to what we're talking about with these state systems is half the tags are drawn by randomly. Anybody can draw them. Of course, those bonus points help you. They give you more names in the hat there in Arizona, so that's nice. And then half go on the max point tiers. And Adam, you kid drew randomly. Yeah.

Yeah, he did. He drew a late coos tag December hunt, which mainly I'd put in for the late kaibab hunts as a first choice. Hunt over Thanksgiving. And this one, you know, I like to hunt coos deer. I've only done it a couple times, but I love to hunt them. And those late hunts are December 15 to 31st. So you kids are out for school. Just you ply and forget about it. Oh, and behold, he drew one of those freaking things with three points. And so we had a great time down there. Went down, didn't even leave, mainly because of our schedule. Obviously, Christmas falls within that window, and everybody's going to have plans to some extent doing that. So we didn't leave. We left about one or two on Christmas afternoon, as soon as Mama kind of said, all right, get out of here. And we had the truck loaded, and we headed south. Get out of here, Santa Claus. And anyway, we headed south.

And fortunately, I had some good guys down there. Justin Erhart and some of the premium hunts crews have been down there twiddling their thumbs. They weren't ready to be totally done hunting, but they'd been out on the earlier hunts and seen a few bucks. And we're hoping to come out and come with us for a couple of days. Only had that last, what, five days or so, six days, whatever it would have been of the season. But we found some bucks right out of the get-go. Found his buck the first night and killed it the next day. It was awesome. 103 inch or something like that. I don't remember. Looked 110 in the photos. He's a good-looking deer. Good-looking deer. Yeah, it was a great buck. I mean, it was a 10-pointer, if you want to call it, you know, you Texans, it was a 10-pointer. But, you know, cool buck, great time, lacked a little mass and probably a little age to be a real giant.

But I mean, geez, first coos deer, it was awesome. And he had a great time. We had a great time. Just goes to show you, you can get lucky. Another thing, I mean, we've had, you know, look at what, 23 north and south early rifle, Jason, that's worth mentioning. This year, 15 total tags, is that right? Yeah. Maybe five. Is there five in 23 south? I don't recall. But there's only one non-resident tag, up two. Yep. And Epic Outdoors clients drew both of those. They're members of ours and drew both non-resident tags. Just somebody's going to get it. Might as well be you. And they're going to have some awesome hunts, 23 south, 23 north, early rifle, moisture year. Good buddy of ours, a good buddy of ours drew the 23 south archery a while back. Yeah. You know, let's call it six, seven years. Not long ago. No, not very long ago.

Then he kicks back in, and he had the loyalty, he had a loyalty point, 100 head point, and five years, six years. Yeah. So he had seven to nine points, whatever. Yes, I think it was eight total. And he picked up the early rifle. And 23 south. 23 south. Can you believe it? On an incredible moisture year. Yeah. And so, and it goes back to, I mean. Having your name in the hat somewhere. Yeah, what's the chances? I mean, come on. I mean, I don't even put in for those hunts, because I want a better chance to draw something than to be the only guy out of a hat. But if all five choices counted in Arizona, it'd be one of your picks. Oh, yes. A prime example of you diluting the odds. Yes. You would. If you had all five choices count. I guess we're just driving that point. Yeah, we're just crushing it. But anyway. That's okay. Yeah.

So we've had a lot of members draw, you know, and of course, we're out there doing it. We both drew sheep tags in Oregon. I mean, drew an antelope in Arizona. Jason has two. I mean, those are so, like, they're almost like Jason's sheep tag last year. I mean, those are nothing forced about those. We've talked about having your name in the hat so much, like, just have your name out there. And then every once in a while, you'll have a year maybe that you don't expect something, but you're putting in for it. And then all of a sudden, you've got, like, the Arizona antelope tag. And you get to go on a hunt. And it's just something that you added on and you. No, I didn't even add it for seven or eight years after I was doing sheep, deer, and elk. And finally, probably Jason just said, why don't you do an antelope? I'm like, I don't know. I guess I'll start. Throw it in there.

Seven or eight years later, boom. Drew an awesome year and drew 10. It's awesome. So, yeah, stuff can happen. And whether it be state run draws or some of the state super tags or raffles or, you know, even, you know, that's frankly why we started some of our Epic Outdoors membership drive in our hunt giveaways is we're tag junkies. We obviously, you know, realize a lot of you guys are as well. And so it's another way to draw a hunt that maybe you couldn't otherwise go on or just another name in the hat. And as long as we can pay for those hunts, we'll keep doing them. So we get a lot of positive feedback from doing it. And obviously from the seven or eight people that draw, we get a lot of positive feedback from those guys. Yeah. In fact, I was just talking to one of our doll sheep winners that's going to Alaska this fall. Yesterday, he's lining up gear and all that.

He's thinking about maybe his wife wants to go now and she's, she hunts with them. They hunt together a lot already. And so just, you know, changes people's lives. One or two tags can change your life. And I don't want to be as shallow sounding as a, as a hunt for an animal can change your life, but it can change your hunting perspective in life. Like this kid's now got the sheep bug like crazy. And he's going to go on his first sheep hunt this year. Never thought of, you know, you don't think about it until something like that hits you or you draw some deer tag and you kill a 200 inch mule deer somehow. And you're just like, holy cow, that's, you know, something I always want to do. And now it just kind of consumes you. Takes your life or application strategy in a totally different direction. So keep your name in the hat, apply, apply, apply.

I don't know that that's necessarily shallow either to say that it can change your life. The older I get, the more I think life is made up of memories and whether it's with your families or your buddies or things like that, I think that's what matters. I think that's right. John, John has Jen and I talk about, we all, right? We all talk about life, like with our wives, like how's our life going? How's our kids? Where are we headed in the right direction? Is life all about bills and work or what, you know what I mean? And I, and I've watched that with you, John, as far as, you know, Jen and I were talking like, you know, um, John and Jen seem to be just all, just really focused on the memories with the kids and that last year, um, I've had a kid leave the house and, uh, changed my life. Like it's one of those things I know that I'm preaching to the choir and a lot of guys out

there that have had kids leave the house and they're like, ah, finally Jason gets to experience what heartache is. It's hard to have those kids leave and, and you miss them so much and you wish you'd have done more. You never say, I've had too many memories with my kids. Never. You never say that. And so now, you know, having said that, I'm going to kill something this year. Like last year I had, last year I had, I had a good year for what I had tag wise, but the kids killed. I mean, we filled three freezers. Everybody talks about filling the freezers. We've killed, we filled three of them with that. I mean, they killed. Didn't even have to drop bombs on moms either. There's all antler game. If you want to, that's one thing I think we should talk about too. If you want to get tags, you can get tags every year. You can get tags every single year. My kids ate tags. There was too many.

But again, Adam, Adam hit on it. We're tag junkies. We get excited about the most small. We're in here at two in the morning. All of a sudden, pretty soon by 8 a.m., we're applying for some obscure freaking muskrat hunt somewhere in the middle of nowhere. We still haven't got Jason in the guide drop. In the guide drop. You know what I mean? To increase our odds. Jeez. We still haven't quite got Jason. We got five days or so on the Colorado deadline. I have not got him to file an antelope application to our knowledge. Is it filed? So we've applied. Whoa. Is your name in the hat? It's points on. Oh, jeez. Come on. You think I'm going to weigh 17 points on a... All those stupid nines. Get rid of those nines. Let's put in some other numbers. I would have 24 points or something. There was years I went without applying. I thought, I wouldn't spend the gas to get there.

And now, the older I'm getting, I'm like, you know... And they don't point average there. If I go in with my kid with zero, we're both in with zero. That's what I'm banking on, is that one year, they allow that, and Jason's like, you want to go hunt an antelope? And I'm like, yep, I'll go with you. And I'll be like, Adam, you already killed an 86, 87-inch. What do you need in that one? Well, you'll get first shot. I'll keep the Pepsi on ice and drive. You all heard it. There's going to be plenty ice. In this office, who in here is going to have a Colorado tag this year? Everybody. Every one of us. Everybody. For dear. But some of us with points. Some of us are going to draw with zero points because we know we can. Second choice. Or do a second choice just to get an option, just to get a tag. Sometimes those tags turn into, you can make something, you got to make something big

because you're left with Jack everywhere else. And yeah, I'm going to turn that into something. Other times, I've had to turn them back. And you can turn back second choice tags and get your money back. Yeah. It doesn't take your points. So. I agree with all that. We'll all be there some way, one way, shape, or form. We'll see what the dust settles in June. So. Did you apply yet, Jeff? I haven't. I'm getting ready to. I'm going both a second choice and a third choice. But I've got to go second season. I thought earlier you said, I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know. But I'm going to go in. But now I know. I'm going to go in. I haven't decided 100% yet. I'd love giving you. Because I've changed. I've changed from different units just in the last four or five hours. Adam, we should charge him for all the consulting we do. It's true. Well, he's true.

Technically gets a magazine in the mail. So technically he's a member. And that's all included in the $100. Yes. I get to work you guys over. Some people need to be charged double.

Double times zero. Two times zero is what? Yep. You're still going to get the same amount out of me. John, have you applied? Not yet. John drew last year, didn't you? So you're one of those guys that's in zero points. It's you. I'm trying to figure out what to do because my wife is going to visit her family in France. And if we do a- Perfect time to leave. If we do a third season, she's going to miss like two days of a third season hunt and possibly fly into Vegas and then jump to Denver. And then I'd have to pick her up in Denver. Oh, jeez. And I'd like to get her to kill her first mule deer this year. She probably can't draw Utah general because she's got zero points, right? So, yeah. Is that right? She's going to be gone. Did she take the Texas hunter ed course? No, she did Utah. Oh, did she? Yeah. Texas hunter ed course, I hear you can do it in less than an hour.

That's what I've heard. And kids. Your kids can do that too. You don't have to do a range or nothing. Mm-hmm. That's tempting. It's kind of a critical piece of info. Yeah. Yeah. We should fact check that. We might want to fact check that. Don't want to be having. I sent a guy a link to that one. What are you doing? I don't know. If I'm skirting that question. You're skirting that question. Yeah, we noticed. Who knows? Not sure yet. I only have one point, so not a lot I can do. If anybody has any good big deer that need to die that you want to give away, why give us a holler.

I'm sure the phone's going to ring off the hook. I really am. I'm waiting. Jason, I'd like to help you kill a big deer. After what you pulled out of 22 last year, people are going to be scared to even mention a big deer around you. Because you'll just... Well, most people, and we... Anyway, we got our butts kicked, really. Yeah, we did kill a big deer. But it's one of those things. It was a tough year in Colorado. But you've got to take the good with the bad. Some years are good. Some years are bad. And I'd go back in three seconds. Boom. But most people wouldn't ever go back, think we misled them, or, you know, it was miserable, this, that, and the other. But it was just the year, year was tough. I do. I am excited about the guide draw results coming out in Nevada on Friday. Yes. Mostly not because I applied to the guide draw. I didn't. But I'm excited for everybody else.

It's fun to have people draw. Generate some calls. It's just like when any state comes out. We love getting calls from happy people and helping them make plans, whether it be, you know, setting them up with an outfitter in the case of the guide draw that's already taken care of for them. But in the case of other states, you know, if you have an inkling you're probably going to do the hunt on your own, we've got an Epic Member Experience Database. You can call and visit with us about that. Send it out to you so that you can converse with other Epic Outdoors members about their experience in the years that they drew the tag. Talk about lodging. Talk about access. Talk about whatever. You know, whatever they found. So one thing I want to, let's give something away. But I feel like giving away an Epic Membership. There's so many people that are not members that listen to the podcast.

We've got some of you guys that are in a big old freaking Mack truck right now listening to the podcast and bored out of your mind. But we want you to have a magazine as well. Or checking gas meters. I talk to you guys doing that too. Checking gas meters. With headphones on. With headphones on. Ignoring the dogs barking at them. Yeah, these guys. Some of those dogs you want to hear them coming. Yeah, you might. Especially when they're not supposed to carry guns. Yeah. It's kind of like some of those guys in Idaho shooting wolves on state time. Anyway, let's do something. What do you think? Camo, Epic Membership. Membership would be awesome. Let's do an Epic Membership. Chris, what do you think? What do you want to do for a promo code or something like that? Let's open it to only non-members. For you members of Epic Outdoors, we know you're like, oh, come on. Give us.

We're your faithful listeners. We give you guys a lot of gear too. This is just a new something. It's off the cuff. So we're not trying to hurt you too bad. Don't get mad. If you call and complain, our complaint department is headed up by a guy by the name of Adam Bronson.

And I have a rerouting on my phone that goes to John.

And John listens to half of it and calls the rest of the day. So, all right. So what do we do for promo code? Let's do a code. Let's just do Epic, E-P-I-C. So what you do is you go to our website, epicoutdoors.com. And then there's a tab called Podcast. Click on that. And you can enter in the promo code Epic on there. And just hit Submit. Yep. Just hit Submit. And you will be entered for that free membership to Epic Outdoors. Okay. On us. Glad to have you on board. I don't know what else to say. We covered a lot of a couple things. We got to show a little love to our buddy Cheston and Phone Scope. We videoed a lot of our stuff through our Phone Scope. Kind of funny about little Cheston, you know. Phone Scope is pretty simple. It's a piece of plastic that attaches to your phone. And you get Wazoo Video, right? Cheston takes all the credit for it, but he ain't making the phone.

You know what I'm saying? Ah, it's awesome. Look at this. Look how amazing it is. Thanks, Samsung. Thanks. iPhone. But anyway, we love Cheston. The plastic works. But it works. It works. The plastic works. It's simple. Anyway, you can go to PhoneScope.com. Anybody that doesn't have one should, because if you didn't video it, it didn't happen. So anyway, go to PhoneScope.com. Sounds like a new slogan. We should trademark that before Cheston takes it from us. Cheston, it's ours. Okay? We want royalties. Okay? We want royalties. So anyway, have at it. It's awesome. What else are we going to talk about? We've got to give a little love to somebody else. Yeah, well, what about the Wild Sheep Foundation? We've talked about sheep tags today. John, this is something for you.

John's a less than one. John, you do this. You do this. The Wild Sheep Foundation, yes, Jeff, you brought it up. They have a less than one club that you can buy tickets. You can enter in to win a sheep hunt there. Or if you attend the convention, you actually have a little bit different advantages, different hunts there. But Wild Sheep Foundation, they've been committed to keeping and putting sheep on the mountain for, you know, decades. And we're all supporters of that. We'll be at the sheep show next year. We go every single year. But it's always a tough time the way some of these shows line up, literally bam, bam, bam, one after another. And we're an organization and a group here that we want to have, you know, continuity here for our members to be able to call and talk with us. So it's hard to be gone for five weeks during show season. Work has to go on here.

We have magazines to write. We have phone calls that we have to get done every night before we go home. But we'll be at the sheep show next year. And we support the Wild Sheep Foundation. Less than one club. You can even win if you're under 30 years old. That's what I've been told. Wow. John thinks you shouldn't be able to apply. So anyway. You better do it before I'm in charge. Yeah. You can check them out online, wildsheepfoundation.org. And, you know, join the organization, either an annual member or a life member. We'll all maybe see you in Reno next year as well. Awesome. Hey, well, Jeff, give us a little love out there at the Outdoor Edge. You're the one that introduced me to the knife. So it's only fitting that you do this one first. Yeah. So I'd heard, and I'll be honest, I'm going to, Aaron Bronson actually was using this knife before I was.

This is a replaceable blade knife, kind of like others out there. Other than this one's, that knife blade is. Indestructible. It's, I'm not going to say indestructible, but it's bigger, grippier, stiffer. I have not had one break on me. And it's got a backing along the top of it. Yes. Just all that support and strength. So you can, you actually cut up an elk without breaking four blades. You can get a hold of that knife and really use it. And it doesn't feel like, it just feels like a real knife as opposed to, you know, maybe something you'd use with two fingers surgically. You know what I mean? Yes. If you're taking an appendix out and it's very precise. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Great. Yes. I'd also say it's the best dang kitchen knife I've ever had. We're using it here in the office. All the time. Just awesome. Great knife. Of course, we have an Epic Outdoors logoed knife. That's right.

That we're giving away at times with our membership drive. By the way, another membership drive coming. How about that? Yeah. We'll do one here on the- May 1st. Here we come. Just a little- Teaser. Teaser. With some unbelievable- Incredible hunt. I mean tags. Landowner deer tags for freaking monsters. I think we- Okay. You can go to Outdoor Edge. Go to OutdoorEdge.com. 1-800-447-3343. Go to the website. One more time. EpicOutdoors.com. Click on the podcast link. Type in the promo code EPIC. If you're not a member of our service, you'll be entered into a free one-year membership. So check us out.