EP 129: A Hunting Obsession with Brendan Burns, KUIU Co-CEO

I'm really hunting for the biggest bull I could find. My first awareness of Brennan Burns has always been some of your giant bulls that you started taking in your home state of Montana. They're a dangerous animal. There's no doubt about it. Anything to do with Western big game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody, Adam Bronson here at the Epic Outdoors podcast. Got a great friend and guest with us today. Today, we've got Brennan Burns, the co-CEO of KU. He's going to join us. How are you doing today, bud? Doing great, man. Appreciate the opportunity. Glad to be on. Looking forward to today. You bet.

Usually when you and I get yakking, it's mainly about hunting and stuff. We want to do the majority of our podcast about that here in a bit. You guys have had a couple of new launches, product lines. One with the Katana and the other one with your new pack harness and suspension system. So, I've seen a bunch of that on your website, YouTube stuff, as well as your Instagram and things like that. But I wanted to give you a chance to, I wanted to ask you, I guess, a little bit about that. Let's start with maybe the Katana series of clothing and gear. How was that hatched? And maybe tell us a bit about why. I mean, you guys have had a great product line. A lot of different, both, you know, synthetic and merino type layers. As far as your tops and then, obviously, your pants systems with your tacks and guide pants, guide pro pants and things like that.

Why did we, where did the, how was the Katana idea hatched? Why did you feel there was still a niche or need or how was it maybe suited a little bit differently than some of the other products you guys already have? Let's talk about it from that angle and then talk about actual products that you actually have in the Katana series. Yeah, yeah, the Katana for us is, and this was really kind of Jason Harrison's, one of his last big passion projects. He really worked on this for a long time and it was obviously in the works for a while. But the Katana is a nylon-based product and it's basically a prime flex nylon. So it's got stretch, but it's got enhanced durability or some of the other stuff. And it's not really a line. And when we added durability in, basically, we added these lines in for durability.

So, for example, like the Katana stretch woven pants, it falls in between the Tiburon and the Attack pant. And it's just a lighter, breathable, but slightly more durable pant that you can use in the desert or anything else. So more durable than the Tiburon, you're saying? Yes, more durable than the Tiburon, lighter than the Attack. Really, we tried to target everything that would fall in an actual certain spot. Yep, gotcha. So what products are you making in that material, that Katana material? Yeah, so we looked at kind of where we had holes in the entire CureU system and where enhanced durability with this prime flex nylon would add to it. So we've got a gaiter that falls in between our Scree Gaiter and our Yukon Gaiter. It's a little bit shorter. It's a little bit lighter. Really easy to adjust. We've got the stretch woven panel, which you just talked about.

A 3DFX hybrid jacket, which is a really cool piece. As you've seen in the last year, too, we've also went a lot into some hybrid stuff where, basically, it's putting the perfect fabric in the perfect places. Not every fabric is perfect for all situations. I mean, if that was the case, I mean, denim's great, but I'm not sure denim shirts are the key. No. I mean, you still see them every now and again, but you know what I mean. So it's really about putting the perfect fabric in the perfect place as you build these products. So the 3DFX hybrid jacket, the Katana hybrid softshell jacket, which is a little lighter under the armpits, different materials. And then the Stormshell and Stormshell pan and Stormshell jacket is basically a more durable backpack version, backpack ringer than the Chugach. Not quite as heavy as the Yukon, and it performs a little differently.

Like, it's not going to – like, in places where you have a lot of contact, really brush-busting, you know, it's just got a different – it falls in between the Chugach and the Yukon, if you're familiar with their line. Gotcha. Gotcha. So your pants and your top, how do you – you said it's a little bit more in between the attack pant, which I'm very familiar with. I probably use the majority of the time myself. You know, I use the Tiburon stuff on, you know, a lot of my scouting stuff, frankly, early on when I'm really active. That stuff's very breathable, very lightweight, obviously, but like you've alluded, it's built that way for a reason. And to keep you a little bit cooler when it's really hot, which is when most of our scouting occurs, you know, this time of year, you know, July, August.

You know, even into the early season bowhunting stuff, I'll wear that then, but then whenever that switch starts to get flipped, you know, I'm a cold person. I'm a tall, lanky dude, skinny guy, and I get cold quicker. So that stuff for me, the Tiburon, I usually put it away fairly quick in the year. That's – other people are a little bit different than me. But I use it a lot in my scouting stuff and early, early season stuff. So this Catana you're feeling, you know, is, you know, that synthetic version, you know, durability, you know, doesn't have all the pores like the Tiburon gears made with. It's a little bit heavier. Yeah. Still breathes incredibly well. Really great wearing pant, but just got that added durability, especially for you guys down there in like the desert type situations. I mean, a Tiburon pant is like not wearing pants. Yeah, it is. Those things are incredible. Yeah.

But they're obviously very, very light. And so this just adds a level of durability to our pant line. And like I said, it falls perfectly in between. And that's what we're trying to do with everything we release is to put it in the lane, make sure that it's – we don't just build stuff just to build it. We build it because it's got a place and a function that falls in during your year. I mean, you know, one of the questions we get asked all the time is like, oh, what's your best pant? And, you know, everybody wants, you know, a magic, you know, a magic bullet that's the best of aiming. And it really doesn't work like that. I mean, the whole layering system is based on, you know, exertion, temperature, your personal preference. That's why we make so many different things is that, you know, you try it all out and see what works best for you is, you know, again, that's –

it's basically just giving you more arrows in the quiver to allow you to, you know, however you function and however you like to use it, whether it's hot or cold. Yeah. You're filling in those layers. So if I was asking you, I guess personally, with some of your hunts that you foresee yourself doing this fall, when do you think you would use this system, the Katana stuff, or on what hunts or in what month or temperature range? Do you think you see yourself, that's what I'm going to use here, that's what I think that fits my niche there best? Just, again, not trying to say that that's how everybody should think about it because, like you've alluded, there's personal preferences. I have certain stuff that I wear that's just my favorite stuff, you know what I mean? And everybody has that.

It fits you well, rides you on your well, moves with you well if you're, you know, a bull hunter versus a rifle hunter, some of those types of things come into play. But with Katana, where do you see with your personal, like when are you going to put that in your pack versus maybe your attack system and Merino or different things like that? Yeah, I still wear Merino as a base leader all the time on all my stuff. But like the Katana pad I will use in September here in Montana. And some of the, you know, one of the classic, I'll tell you, I'm exactly, this pertains, I have two sheet punts coming up back to back. I've got Kanaal in the NWT July 15th. I actually leave on Friday. And then I'll be hunting where you hunted last year at Ultimate Tule this fall as well. So I'm bow hunting at Kanaal. And I will be taking the Chugach on this trip because it's a little bit quieter.

It's a little bit lighter. I'm not anticipating any, I mean, I hope we're not going to have horrible weather. But, you know, it's July 15th. It's the middle of summer. There's four hours of darkness total. We're really going to be basically hunting around the clock. All day long, yeah. Yeah, and then going to jump right in that Ultimate Tule hunt, which I will take the Katana Stormshell versus the Chugach because it's a little more durable. I mean, I actually just saw your video from last year hunting sheep. And that is some godforsaken, nasty, rock-infested, you know, brush. Like, that's really kind of an unforgiving place where you can have some more durability. You're not probably moving an incredible amount of country. You're probably not going to walk 100 miles. So when you're in a spot, you're in a spot, and your key is to stay dry.

So that's a classic example of, you know, the one that you guys is going to breathe a little better. It's going to be a little quieter, obviously, when I'm bow-hying. And the Katana is going to be a little – it's going to be, you know, they're both waterproof, obviously. But it's going to move moisture with a lower level of exertion, and it's going to be a little more durable. So those are two different places where I would take the sheep set. And it kind of works throughout the line that way. Gotcha. So like you've alluded, the Yukon stuff is more – you know, I don't want to put pigeonhole that into a certain kind of hunt only, but more for the just brutally extreme or the way I liken it to a lot of people who have asked me about that. Most people, I've told them, I'd go with the Chugach over the Yukon if you're going up there on one sheep hunt, you know,

versus if you were an Alaskan sheep guide, go with the Yukon because you're going to use it week after week for two months straight. You know what I mean? Yeah, we built – the Chugach is twice the weight, you know, same waterproof, twice the weight. It's just built to be super durable, reinforced butt, reinforced knees, extra pockets. I think it just depends on how you like your rain gear as well. I mean, most of the time when I ever have trashed rain gear, it's definitely not hunting. It's doing something like loading gas into a boat or with horses or anything. And a lot of, you know, the guys up north, you know, and the Yukon really falls into kind of a dual purpose too. There's a lot of guys that run that as just their outer jacket, period. You know, they just have an insulation jacket and then the Yukon. And it's kind of a dual purpose because of the weight.

So, again, it's just all stuff that depends on your personal preference. Yeah, you find your niche on how you want to do it. And, again, a lot of this boils down to, you know, again, personal preference, exertion, temperature, what you're expecting to do. I mean, if you're guiding every single day for 90 days straight, I would definitely go with the Yukon. Yeah, that's what I told people. As well. Versus this other stuff. It sounds like the Katana is just a step up in durability from the Chugach, but you don't get all the extra added weight and things like that that you get when you go to the Yukon stuff, things like that. Correct. Yep. Awesome. Well, that's some great looking gear. You guys have a great, you know, some of the information, again, on your Instagram, on your QUOfficial Instagram, as well as your website for that. But let's talk also about your new pack suspension system.

You guys, that's just a very new release here in the last couple of weeks, I believe. You know, I've used packs back from the original. I mean, I still have the original. The original Brown, Major Brown 6000. Still have that pack. My son uses it, you know, more than I do because, like you said, you've had a couple of different upgrades since then to the Yukon Pro, you know, the Ultras. But let's talk about why. I mean, it might be some natural, easy answers to that, but why do you guys feel the need to make some advancements or upgrades, if you can call that, into your harness and suspension system to your packs? Yeah, we felt like Naked's, we've been working on them for a while. We went about this a little different way. We kind of approached everybody that didn't like something about our pack and, you know, looked at, like, what don't you like about it? We had two things.

We've upgraded our suspension. It's a new pro suspension. And basically, our real focus in the pack system has been modularity. And it's the perfectly, and the way I can best describe the modularity is, like, we feel like you can buy a lot of different packs, but you need seven or eight packs in a different year. I mean, you're scouting right now in the summertime to all the way you're headed for a stone sheep hunt where you need a 7,800. I mean, there's, and sometimes you're just you and a client on a day going to pack one ram out. Sometimes you're going overnight or. You need a lot of, if you're hunting year round, you need a lot of different packs. Well, our frame and suspension is built now, is built to, is built for the best modularity, meaning you have a perfectly fitted frame and suspension built exactly like you like it.

And we've made it to where with 10 clips in two minutes, you can pop any bag on. I actually leave my bags fully packed, and it takes me less than two minutes to swap bags out on my suspension and frame as of right now. So it just allows you to be more versatile. And you use the perfect pack at the perfect time. And the pro suspension, we really focused on fit and function, basically making it to where it will fit more people, more different sizing, more adjustability, and more comfort. There's a lot of people love the old system, and there's nothing wrong with it. We just feel that these upgrades will allow it to fit more people, be more comfortable. And then added some stuff that, like in the shoulder system, the suspension system, to where it's a little more breathable and a little more comfortable.

And we have, you know, when it comes to motillary, we have apex shoulder straps now, which are three times the foam. If you're hauling really massive loads, it's, you know, at the end of the day, carrying weight. At some point in time, we have so much weight on you, it's just nice to have something a little more padded. So we've added all that stuff into where you can kind of pick and choose your system as you use it. And really with one frame of suspension, you can attack the whole year, everything you need. I mean, I've got my pack and everything set up for the Ultimate 2-League Hunt, and I will literally just pop my frame of suspension out and go to my other one for the next hunt. So, you know, I'm going to go set some, I'm going to go do some scouting tomorrow. I'll go finish breaking some boots in, and I'm going to take a 3,600. Tomorrow with big glass, go do some glassing.

And it just allows you to move freely between the different packs and added comfort. So, we have five new bags, 1,850, 2,300, 3,600, 6,000, 7,800, which we still kind of falls right in on, you know, half day hunt, day hunt, day hunt, maybe overnight with some big optics, a couple, four or five days, and then your 10-day unsupported sheep hunt. So, kind of filled everything in. Yeah. So, with the added versatility in your, like you said, you alluded to the shoulder strap, do you have that one or two, is there like two options there that you can get on the shoulder strap, or how many you got? Yeah, everything is compatible in our entire system. So, actually, right now we have three. We have the Ultra, we have Ultra shoulder straps, we have Pro shoulder straps, and we have the Apex.

On the waist belt, we have the Ultra and the new Pro, which we feel like encompassed everything from the Icon Pro and has made it more adjustable, more custom fit. Like, we definitely feel like people will really relate more to that one. We'll find more comfort in that. And then, yeah, I mean, it's the same frame we've always used. It's all compatible. If you already own an Icon Pro, the new Pro suspension and the new Pro bags will clip right into it from 2017, and there's a conversion kit earlier even. So, yeah, we didn't want to reinvent the wheel. We feel like our carbon fiber platform for weight for both flex and vertical stiffness is going to be pretty hard to beat. So, we just refined that, and really, like I said, we really went and asked, you know, what don't you like? And that's how we went about this one. So, it's been a really good one. That's good. I'm thrilled with it.

Yeah, I'm looking forward to putting mine to use. Not as soon as you. It sounds like you're leaving this Friday, huh? July 15th. Yeah, I'll take off on Friday. Yep, July 15th. That's one nice thing about NWT is it gets summertime started early. It's funny. People are like, where do you got going this fall? It's like, ah, it's the summertime. Yeah, that's right. Well, that's great. Well, before we move off the pack, and let's talk about that, some of the hunts and that, but anything else you want to add on the Katana and ProPack? Everything's online. It's in stock. Again, there's some tutorials I know you have on your website. I don't want to spend a whole podcast on it. We just wanted to make sure that our listeners knew that you had some new products out there. I've got them ordered.

Looking forward to getting that 7800 ProPack system and putting it to use on a couple sheet punts of my own this year, in addition to probably the 6,000 on the bulk of what I would pack on my guided sheet punts, even if I'm not anticipating staying overnight. That's that 58 to 6 is what I carry all the time just so that, you know, a lot of times you're carrying more gear than you maybe need to because maybe the client, you take a little load off of them, or if you kill a sheep, there's no leaving it. You want to be able to bring it all off. Take the whole thing out. Yeah. Life-size cake. That's why the bag, yeah, that's why our bag selection is what it is, and we feel like it really falls into everything you could possibly use. Again, from, you know, you're taking one trail camera out for two hours to go, you know, drop something off

and do a big fast strike to, you know, 14-day unsupported trip, which I got coming up. You can carry it all, so that's why we film. We also introduced our Strong Fleece Series 2, which is along the lines of Katana. It adds durability and water resistance to the mid-layer lines. We'll check those out. One's like 260 and one's a 210. Just adding some more options in. So, yeah, I mean, everything we're doing is just really gives the customer the ability to fill in, you know, some guys like, depending on, you know, again, exertion, what you're hunting, temperature, how your body runs, physical activity, all that stuff. So, just adding stuff into the line, not necessarily anything that runs over the top of each other, but things that fall into definite places that can add in. Well, that's been very obvious. You know, we've been with you, obviously, from the start. Literally day one.

Literally day one. And, you know, I still have some of that stuff. I have some of my original Merino, you know, and Vias just because it's, I don't know, it's a little sentimental, I guess. It's still good. It's a little sentimental. You know, I got my boy. He's roughly my height now. He's not as big as me. He's only 14. But, I mean, he's wearing, you know, his own stuff plus my stuff. And what I see over the time is, like you said, the gaps that have been filled is what's really year by year. You guys have filled in that, the gaps, so to speak, versus, you know, you had a pair of pants, you know, two Merino tops, you know, a guide jacket and a down coat, you know, or the synthetic spindrift back in the day, the old brown one. You know, I mean, it was, that was it. And like you said, you guys have done an amazing job.

And a lot of it, a fill in the gaps, and a lot of it's based on the fact that when you or Jason or your crew or a lot of guides and outfitters or just hunters in general go on hunts, I suppose a lot of it's born out of, man, I could use this, you know, just a little bit different something. I imagine that's how a lot of these have been born, right, these ideas, concepts. We are absolutely customer, guide, and outfitter. Like the feedback is where most of it comes from, is you could use this or personal experience. I mean, there's a lot of times where you go, man, this could be a little better. And that's where, you know, our development cycle and everything really comes into play is we don't take anything personal. If it needs to be fixed, we're going to fix it.

And there's just, you know, yeah, there's a lot of improvements that have come from feedback, including yourself and lots of guys, especially on the packs. And our new bag design on our pack is one classic example of, you know, our old bags. They're great. The spotting seal pockets are, you know, we kept some of the things that are the same. But we've got a new zipper on each side that allows you to access your rain gear or kind of your important stuff while your pack's fully loaded. And that was just one of those things that you should not have to unbuckle your entire pack to get to the stuff that you're using all the time. And that was one of the things we went into, like, how can we solve this problem? And that's what we have with the new ProPacks is you can always access your stuff that you need right away without taking your pack apart. Absolutely.

And they can check that out all online. We've got some tutorials. And, you know, I think people are really going to really like the new system. Well, I know they will. If anybody that's really, really into gear, you know, and I don't want to make it sound like if you're casual, take your gear casually, however you want to word that, that you're not going to enjoy QU gear because you will. It'll probably be more than you ever thought you would need, but that's always better. But for somebody that really is scrutinizing on their gear, just want to add my two cents to it, that it's you don't find yourself lacking. You really don't. There's something for everybody. I always find a piece or two of something that I want to try each year, whether I feel I need it or not.

I'll end up seeing something at one of the shows that you guys have that feels different, that I feel, you know, and sometimes it's not even anticipated or expected that that's going to be my favorite jacket or piece. But I've got those and I wear them. I've got certain things that I wear all the time. And my son will say, why are you wearing that? I says, because it's, I've been there, done that in this thing. And I just, I don't know, stuff feels good. And I appreciate you guys always looking at, you know, obviously there's technology advancements that obviously make some of this stuff possible as well that wasn't there, you know, six, eight years ago. But just from a practicality standpoint, filling in the gaps, like you said, I appreciate it. Oh, yeah, yeah. It's fun. It's always a combination of, like, fabric and technology don't solve everything.

There's a lot of things that are function as well. And so we are always looking at both. I mean, you know, you want to increase performance, decrease weight, increase durability, and increase function. I mean, and some of the things, whether it's, you know, some of it, like the Katana is new fabric that was not available when we started. And some of the things just are just flat smart, like our full zip long underwear. I mean, if you're not using those, you are literally missing out. Like, you should not have to take your boots and strip down to take your long underwear every morning. Like, it's an incredible thing that, you know, came about from just being tired of having to strip down and decide whether you're either cold in the morning or you're going to be warm in the afternoon. Like, it just solves the problem. And that's the stuff we love. Yeah.

Yeah, that's a great example right there because, yeah, we fought that our whole lives. It's like you end up just roasting. I'm going to hike, but I'm going to have to take more breaks because I don't want to sweat my guts out because I don't want to take this off. It's too cold to not wear it, but I don't want to sweat the whole way up. You know, there's a lot of different, you know, practicalities, issues like there. But I appreciate it. And let's talk a little bit about hunting, I guess. You've alluded to the fact you've got a little bit of scouting to do. You know, you seems like my first awareness of Brennan Burns has always been some of the giant bulls that you started taking in your home state of Montana. And that sure hasn't let up. And that's obviously not just been limited to Montana. You've killed some giant bulls in other places as well.

But you've been dialed in for years, it feels like, on giant bulls. Last year, you killed a couple more giant bulls, 375, 385. And if I'm shorting it by a few inches, sorry, I'm rounding. I'm rounding to round numbers is all. But a couple, you know, a book typical. And I think it was a book non-typical, if I'm not mistaken, that one from California, a book typical from Montana. But anyway, what do you, I mean, I know you've got either bulls you're looking for or hoping to find. You've alluded to the fact you're heading out scouting, maybe throwing some cams out and getting them finishing up. Well, you're gone for much of the next, I guess, three, four weeks after that hunting sheep. But what's Montana looking like for feed and elk? And I've always said that, you know, Montana's system, I guess for everybody.

But obviously, with the non-resident cap limitation, getting a special tag on top of the general is not a guaranteed thing. It's a three- to five-year wait for a lot of the eastern Montana units where it's, you know, most cases for residents, this is an every year, every other year thing. But, geez, what a lot to look forward to, I assume. Things looking good up there, moisture-wise, feed-wise, things like that? Yeah, I mean, we don't suffer from the rain like you do. Like, I mean, when people ask, like, you know, it's a wet year, should it be good for horn growth? You guys literally don't. Live and die by it. Your elk are affected by it. They cannot get a drink. Our elk can always find water. So, yeah, it's looking like a good year. This is, I did kill, I believe, last time we were on a podcast, I talked about a bull that I passed up in 17. Well, I ended up there on that bull in 18.

It was the same bull. I mean, I got, like, many, grossed a little over 380, not at 375. Just a beautiful bull. It was almost identical year-to-year from what I got him. This is actually the first year in a long time I don't have a particular bull that I'm hunting, which I'm actually really looking forward to. The bull that I killed last year was the dominant bull in the area. For three years, he kind of ran everything, and I finally, you know, I passed him up in 17, killed him in 18. So I'm looking forward to seeing what I can turn up. What, shows up or blows up or moves in or just surfaces? We did cut. Trail cameras just basically became legal in Montana. I'm not running a bunch of them or anything, but it's kind of a new thing. I have 10 of them. I'm messing around with them a little bit. We'll see if I haven't yet to take a solid picture of anything with a trail camera yet.

But it's kind of an interesting thing, and it's just good that I'm busy for that. Good tool, yeah. Yeah, it's fun to just go out and see if that will be something that adds standing. I don't think it's going to take away from the traditional scouting and all that. And a lot of the bulls that I've hunted, you know, summertime scouting doesn't mean anything. Wintertime scouting, picking up horns doesn't mean anything. They just flat move when it comes to the rut. Yeah, let's talk about that slightly. I mean, if I'm not mistaken, I mean, I know we've killed a couple rifle bulls in, you know, like Wyoming or I think, was that California bull last year rifle? I don't even know. I think it was. It was a rifle, yeah. And that's the first guy that I've kind of been on. Yeah. It was a splat that was already, we basically had to go hunting down there. Yes. It was a cool hunt.

It's definitely something different. It was a neat experience. Cool bull, double swords, kickers off the swords. But yeah, for you, the Montana archery hunt, tell me, we talked a little about in the past, but how do you, and I know it's hard because every bull has been different, but how do you normally kill them? And what I mean by that is most people, and I'm not one of these guys, most people just want to hunt the best time in September when they're screaming their guts out and all that. And to me, I've never, I've never with elk really cared that much about that and having them be vocal. There's definitely units in Utah, you know, maybe like a boulder or certain places where vocal elk most definitely make a big difference. There's other places and a lot of the units in the Southwest, Nevada, you know, Northern Arizona

and parts of Arizona, as well as Southern Utah, where glass spot and stock intercept. I know the bull's living here. He's kind of with cows, but he's not. That's how I've, I've hunted more like mule deer techniques, hunting elk more than just calling elk and hoping I can call a big bull in because usually the bull that you really want to kill, it's not, not that easy to just ever going to call them in, especially when he gets cowed up. So tell me about, I guess the timing of when you have maybe been most successful. And I know a little bit of that varies year to year with weather and things like that, but what phase of, of archery hunting elk do you, have you had the most success? What phase of the, of the season or the rut, if you want to kind of, you know, wrap that up in one kind of topic? Yeah, it's varied.

I actually, last year, I think I killed my elk on the, on the 3rd of September, which is the earliest I've ever killed one. And it was, I, it was a funny deal. I believe we talked about on the podcast a year ago. Like it was a, it was a really dominant bull. Like he had all the cows early, like by August, I think I found him August 28th. He had 50 cows and this, this dude rutted early. He was strong handed on everybody else. And he was, you know, so you kind of go when you find them. I don't make plans in September or the first 15 days of October. My, my, I don't like to have a bunch of different elk tags. I like to have one tag and I go until I find, I spend 95% of my time hunting the bull that I want to kill. Yeah. Looking around as I've gotten more picky or, and I wouldn't say I'm that picky. I mean, in reality, like I've had, I've had a great run as of late and it kind of goes

in cycles, but I'm, I'm really hunting for the biggest bull I can find. You know, I spend a lot of time trying to find them and, you know, after 15 days of hunting and the biggest bull I can find, that's, that's the one I'm after. If he's, if he's 350, he's 350. If he's 400, he's 400. But, um, you know, I'm really, you can only kill what you can find. Um, so I spend as much time as possible just looking for what I'm, what I'm looking for. I tried to look at everything and, you know, there's, there's some years like two years ago. I mean, I would normally never pass a 380 inch bull up, but I was hunting a bull that was almost 390. Um, that's the only reason I passed this bull up, um, on a normal year, he'd been number one. And, and so you just, there's no real set thing like, Hey, I'm looking for a booner. I'm looking for this giant, like, no, whatever the biggest thing.

I can find is I, I truly enjoy hunting elk. I love hunting specific bulls. So timing, you know, they, they're all, they all have, the more I hunt big bulls, the more it's very obvious. They all have different personalities. Like last year was just absolutely as aggressive and mean and dominant as you could, I've never seen a bull that was, I mean, there's nothing would get near this guy. I mean, the bull I had killed at 17, this will be a little bit confusing, but the bull I killed in 18 beat the hell out of the bull that I killed in 17 and the bull in 17, I was scored him by 10 inches, but he was just smaller bodied, less dominant. And that's what took me so long to kill that bull before. So one last year, man, when I found him and he was with, he had 50 cows first, you know, 28th of August and he never left them.

I mean, even if they got spooked or something or went a different direction, he was always with them. It was pretty easy to figure out. I ended up cutting him off, headed for water and shot him the first, first move I put on him. And I could have killed him the year before the same way because he was, he was pretty predictable. Like he wasn't leaving those cows. They all have kind of different personalities. Some are wanderers, some, some are homebodies. I just, one thing I don't do is call very often. Now I have called a few bulls in every now and again, and, and, and there's a time when, you know, bulls all by himself and he's wandering and calling and like, he's primed to be called in, but I generally just don't, I don't like to let them know I'm in the area. I mean, I think that, that, that calling type encounter for me is there's, there's only two ways it's going to play out.

You're either going to kill that bull or you're going to scare him to death. And the second part of that equation, I do not like, I would rather put a move on something and, and, and have it not work out and have another crack at him later versus, you know, the calling thing is I don't think interactions with humans are that uncommon for elk. I think interactions with humans who are trying to sound like elk scare the hell out of them because it, it's, I, you know, they bump into people all the time. And you see them when they get winded or moved or whatever, and they don't necessarily pull country, but man, if you call one in and it just goes south on you and you don't get them killed, they come out of their skin and you might never see them again. So that's just not an outcome that I, that I'm willing to, uh, to, to be, uh, involved in.

So I just, and again, I think you lean towards style. I, I've grown up hunting alone the whole time. I rarely have anybody else I'm hunting with. So calling is not that conducive when you're hunting alone. So that's, that's why. That's right. Well, and also you got to have, you got to have country. I mean, we'll both concede that you got to have some glassable country or semi open country, you know, that you can actually move glass spot, stop intercept, intercept things like that versus just to see a timber. Um, because we all realize in a sea of timber, you either sit in water, you're still hunting around or you got to try to make something happen. And your options get definitely get more limited. So it's also the type of country, which, you know, the whole eastern. Absolutely. I mean, there's guys, there's guys in North Idaho that would call what I just said is nuts.

I mean, those guys would like that. Yeah. Like how would I hunt one specific bull on a sea? Black timber. Yeah. Those elk are very vocal. The stuff I hunt is like open, broken country, low density elk. And I think they recognize each other as well. I mean, I don't think they get fooled by like, oh, Hey, there's a new guy in town. I don't think so. So I think they all know each other's voice, especially old bulls. I mean, you're talking 10, 12, 15 year old bulls sometimes where they can recognize each other's voices. And especially in that open country, they're definitely more visual. Um, they kind of sneak around until they can see some and then maybe it'll come in. So I think it just boils down to the type of, you know, you lean towards what you're good at. Yeah. Well, I mean, I couldn't call an elk if he had a phone. So it's not really something that I do.

So you grew up, you know, that's where you, I mean, grew up hunting elk in that situation. Nobody can argue with your success. Stick with it. Do you have any other elk tags this year besides your Montana tag? Nope. Just Montana. Looking forward to what I can turn up. Like I said, this is the first time in a long time I did not have any specific bull that I'm, that I'm, that I'm hunting, which is, uh, which is a cool place to be in. Like we'll, we'll see what shows up. I don't have any, you know, the last two have been great big. We'll, we'll, we'll see. I'm sure there'll be something show up. Oh yeah. I'm sure you will. I've got a couple of new spots that I'm checking out and, uh, yeah, I'm looking forward to it. I enjoy hunting. Yeah. I don't really have any pressure to fill a tag anymore at all. Or they're, uh, it's almost more of a pain once you got to take care of them.

So, uh, yeah, I'm really enjoying just, just looking. Kill a good one or chase a good one until the season's over. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's talk about sheep too. I know that's something you and I probably spend more time than anything talking about just yakking or texting or whatever. And you've alluded to a couple of the hunts you got going this year. First off in the NWT, um, taking your bow only. Is that right? Yep. Bow only. So it's either going to happen or it's not. Yeah. With a bow. It's going to happen or it's not. Yeah. I mean, I, I, like I said, we'll, we'll see how it goes. I'm, uh, yeah. Uh, the doll sheep has been my nemesis. I have, I've got about 50 something plus days with a bow. I've had one good opportunity. I've been pretty picky. I have passing rounds up, but have you, I wouldn't say a ton of them.

I've, I've had some, I've just generally not had great luck on doll sheep with a bow. And yeah, I'm looking forward to it. Have you done any of them? I'm sorry to cut you off, but have you done any, is this the first hunt that you've taken only a bow for doll sheep?

Yeah. This is, yeah. I get, I mean, I, I, I killed a ram on the last day at Bonn Plume on day 10. Um, and just. With a rifle. Yeah. But there's always been a rifle there and we'll see, like I said. And I'm not saying that makes the difference, but you and I both know, uh, I'm the same way. I've not done that yet. Um, I'm not to that point yet for, I guess just, I mean, I've not killed enough sheep and I'm not trying to say like, I need to kill a bunch before I try one exclusively with a bow, but I, there, there's a lot riding on it. Um, obviously both from a time, a financial standpoint, just being in that position to hunt sheep, you know, I, I'm not feeling like, uh, I mean, I don't know that ever will be one that I can, you know, quote, play around with. But what, where I'm going with that is I really think there's something to that.

We all know that there's people that take that I have, I have friends that have taken both the bow and a gun and they've asked me back and forth. I'm sure you've talked to dozens and dozens. And generally what I tell them, if, if you want to kill it with a bow, you better just take a bow just to, just so that you're all in because you're always going to have that, that fallback. And I know that even with myself that, uh, the, the times that I, uh, you know, I've got a tag this year for myself that, that, that might, you know, I could play in, but I know if I'm going to kill it with a bow, I'm probably gonna have to just leave the gun at home. Um, so yeah, I'm excited to see how you do up there. Yeah, my two, uh, I, I, I killed Rocky and a stone with a bow and both of them, I did not have a firearm. With you. Yeah. You know, and not, yeah. It wasn't, it wasn't an option.

I think that's, I think it's probably the best way to go. And I've killed four doll sheep, doll rams now. And, um, yeah, I'm, I'm actually enjoying sheep hunting more than I ever have. I mean, this is, this is a really cool trip in NWT. My ultimate goal, whether I hit it or not, but I, you know, it's not really based on grand slams or anything like that anymore. Like I'd love to hunt every area in NWT and every area in the Yukon and, you know, I need a Brooks range around. So I was like, I'm really loving hunting new country and with new people. And, uh, this is going to be a really, really cool trip and we'll see how it goes. And, uh, yeah, that's awesome. It's going to be fun. Yeah. You going with anybody else from the QU team or is it just you as far as on that? Anybody? Paul, Paul and Matt are the camera, two cameramen are coming with us.

And then, uh, I'm hunting with, uh, with, with Glinda Grote, who's an outfitter there. And then, uh, my buddy Johnny Nykirk is coming up to come as well. So it's awesome. Should be really fun. And we're going to have some country we haven't hunted in a little while. And so we're, I'm really looking forward to it. And it's totally new for me, new area. Um, yeah. And then, uh, tend to Alaska, uh, on the tent. I thought I was a pretty lucky guy this year until I, uh, I mean, man, stoning the desert in one year. You're, uh, well, you're the luckiest guy I know now. Well, I, I feel lucky. And, and like a joke with my wife, it's kind of first world problems, um, to have to juggle things around sheep hunts. I get it. I get it. But, you know, after, you know, 24 years or whatever, um, you know, they had to give me a tag in my home state.

And so, uh, it, it, I am very blessed and lucky and grateful that I didn't pick you grateful. I grew up with a dad that exposed me to desert sheep. And of course, being from Southern Utah, that was the once in lifetime species that I, you know, chose from the get go. We, as residents have to choose one of them. I'm sure glad I picked that. Um, at the time I did, I thought it would probably be the first and maybe only sheep I'd ever get. I'm going to put in for desert sheep. You know, this is out of high school, you know, early, you know, late, late teens. And, uh, it just, the way stuff works out, you can't predict it. It's ended up going to be my last ramblin' need on this, uh, you know, for all, for North American sheep. So I'm very excited about that and have kept my schedule, uh, much more open, both from

a guiding standpoint, as well as other personal hunts that are, that's been the challenge. That's been the first world joke that I've got to have to, you know, get rid of some of the deer hunting opportunities that I've had or land or tags that I've secured just to really focus on it and really don't, when it's all over, don't say, I wish I'd actually not had as many hunts or deer hunts in Nevada or Utah or Colorado or different things in the way. So yeah, I, I'm lucky. Although the one I did draw, um, they pretty much had to give me a tag, but I'll sure take it. Yeah. But yeah, I start August 1st. Uh, so in between kind of you, I guess you'll come home from MWT for a bit and then you're going to go to Alaska where I went last year and, uh, that'll be fun. I know you're taking another individual from QU there. You both, I guess, be hunting there together. Is that right? In Alaska? Yeah.

We're going to go up at, uh, yeah, we're going to see how, uh, see how that goes. See if we can follow and, uh, see if you left anything good up there. It'll be fun to check out. So that was, uh, yeah, it was really cool to watch, watch your film the other day and just kind of see the footage. And, you know, I've looked at that stuff on Google Earth and I've been reading about that area since I was a little kid, man. I mean, I've liked, like, you know, you talk about the swing for him and some of the sheep that have come out of that kind of country and to, to, to actually like, we booked this four years ago. So it's, it's, it takes a long time to get there. Um, I'm really looking forward to, uh, and there's just something about being on the ice, about the glacier country. Like it's just different. Um, it is. It's, uh, it's one of those places that's been last year is my third time there.

And like you said earlier, part of sheep hunting for me, it's obviously the animal and the respect you have for hunting sheep and the different species of them, but it's also the places you get to go. And so in my mind, I even talked to you about it. I just about, if you remember, I was talking to you about going along with you and Jason to Yukon with Chris, you had an opening there. I just was, when I was looking to go on another one, I'm like, I want to hunt. Part of it is you want to hunt where there's big rams obviously, but you also want to hunt something different. But I ended up just, just settling back there for, for, I guess the variety of reasons. Um, um, but overall, I, uh, you know, I'm not, I don't, don't get to see different country when you hunt the same place, but I guess I really can't argue with the result of how

that thing unfolded last year and killing the ram that I did for lucky to do that and probably plan on going back every four years, just simply because of that. Um, the odds are, you know, you got to hunt where they are and not that I'm hunting an inch. I was, I'm just hunting sheep, but I'm also hunting an area like you've alluded. When you go there and you see those mountains, you realize Montana is a little bit different than Utah, but we don't have mountains in Utah. When you go up to, to Alaska, whether it's the Chugach or the Wrangles or even part of the Alaska range, you realize we really don't have mountains. We have little mountain ranges, you know, with valleys in between, they just have some of the most angry, um, unending, um, series of mountain ranges that there are. And it's, it's pretty awesome. You feel very small, very small in the universe when you get up there. Yeah.

There's, there's something about getting dropped off knowing you cannot walk out, which I tell people all the time. Like there's something about getting dropped off where there's no way out that changes what you're doing. And I really love those hunts where it's like, you know, there's, there's only one way in and one way out and you're not walking out of this place. And that's, that's one of those, I love those unsupported hunts where like, you got to have everything dialed and yeah, and that's cool country. And I'm, I'm looking forward to it because there's some great rams there. It's, it's, you know, there's iconic places that you want to hunt doll sheep and you know, the Shugach, the McKenzie mountains, the Wrangles, you know, but like, hopefully we all get to hunt them all. But, um, that place right there is going to be, is pretty special.

And, and it's not, I mean, obviously you killed a giant ram last year, but there are bigger and there are smaller, like you could literally kill, you know, the biggest sheep in decades. Yeah, you could order, it borders, some of the biggest unhunted places on the planet that hold the biggest genetics for doll sheep. Like that's, that's kind of the cool thing about it is you just never know what you're going to run into. And it's a real, it's a real hunt. So I'm really looking forward to it. Oh, that's awesome. Well, while we're on the sheep thread, I mean, I don't know, tell me, I mean, you got started probably roughly the same time I did. I think you went with, with, uh, Mike Litson in the Alaska range, but how would you describe your sheep hunting conversion? I mean, I know to some extent being in the industry that you are, um, you, you know, when

you jumped on board with Jason, when he, uh, started to cue you from the start, uh, you know, you know, the gear you make, the people that you associate with when you're trying to market your gear and all that, all things lead to sheep and sheep hunting places. But still I run into people every year, uh, even that have tried sheep hunting, even a sheep hunt in a place that I thought would be, is still a dream of mine. And they just don't, I don't know. They don't, yeah, it was fun, but yeah, I don't know if it's for me. So it doesn't, it's not a given just being immersed in, you know, a sheep, you know, we'll call it QU, you know, a hunting gear, but obviously very niche to mountain hunting. And so you might say that's totally natural for you to just like sheep hunting, but talk about, I guess, why you feel, what you feel sheep, how, why sheep hunting does it for you?

Yeah, I've been into it and I don't even know why I grew up, you know, here in Montana. And I used to watch a lot of these rams that came out of the park by Gardner. That was like, I thought those were big sheep and we had a few, you know, um, and I, I don't know what, you know, if the elk and sheep were the two things that I just didn't know anybody growing up that knew that much about them and just kind of started diving into it. And my dad drew a tag in 2001 in, uh, in Kerma, which was a, one of the premier areas back then. It's since not, it's kind of died off. But, um, and I remember being out there and just, my dad killed it. We killed a beautiful ram, was an awesome hunt. But I, I remember looking at the sheep going, I don't know what I'm looking at. And the next time I really just, you know, I was 21 or two at the time and I went, you

know what, if I ever get an opportunity to do this, I want to know what I'm looking at. I mean, we killed a sheep. It was, it was younger than we thought it was. I couldn't have told you if it was 160 or 180. And like, I, I, and I just, it struck me at that moment. Like, I really want to learn and know what I'm looking at. So if I ever have an opportunity, which 15 years later I did, I knew exactly what I was looking at, which, which, you know, was a long path to get to that point. Um, I just wanted to learn more about it. And, you know, I mean, you just, I guess whatever, you know, I, mule deer guys would say the same thing. I mean, there's those old time mule deer guys with these stories about big bucks. I just leaned towards that with, you know, my buddy, my, my mentor in sheep hunting is a guy named Ray Alls who passed away a year ago.

And, and you just being around those guys, you go like, man, that's just an experience that it stays with you their whole life. And so I've, I've been unusually lucky. I've, I've really hustled hard to get on some hunts. I started guiding to, uh, to just to get opportunities to look at sheep and beyond sheep. And it's morphed into more than I ever could have, uh, could have thought it could be. And, you know, I've had some opportunities with the job, but I've also, you know, I plan on booking a hunt. You make your opportunities. I book a hunt every, every three years. I save money to book my own hunt every three years. My first grand slam, I hustled the entire thing myself. Had nothing to do with work. Um, and, and a little luck, you know, I won a stone sheep hunt. That's, that's pretty awesome. I drew Montana. Um, I traded for a big one horn ram and I got on a cancellation.

My first one to listen. So, uh, you know, just, I just, it's really a lot of fun. And the more I've been able to do it, the less pressure there is and the more, the actual more fun I've had doing it. And yeah, it's just one of those things that's always going to test you. Yeah. Well, I, I echo a lot of that. You know, my, like I've alluded, I grew up in Southern Utah, red rock country, south of Moab, little town Monticello. So, you know, desert sheep and big elk and big deer is what we had. And, uh, you know, that's what you, I guess you're the allure of, I remember my dad taking me down in a spot called red Canyon on the South San Juan, put me up on a big boulder while him and a bunch of other folks were going to sneak up on this big bunch of sheep. And I don't know, I've had to been four or five years old. And I, I guess I stay put, stayed put because he, he picked me up off the rock.

But I remember while they went up there and bumped the sheep, they ran right down to me. And I'm this little kid on this giant boulder in this Talos slope with a sheep right, right by me. Of course, I know I didn't have binoculars. This would have been, uh, you know, late seventies, you know, or maybe 1980. And I just remember how cool that was to have these sheep down there. And I just hunkered down and watched them come down to me as they were looking behind them at where they had spooked them and just thinking, this is cool. And, you know, one thing leads to another. I started a biology field, uh, in, in college. And when I applied for graduate school at Utah state, got selected by a, uh, uh, major professor that, that had funding for a desert sheep water study in the ground staircase in Southern Utah.

And I landed that I could have, I could have got picked to do coyote wolf study in Yellowstone, which other students there were doing at the time. I just got lucky to have a graduate study, uh, for two years in, on the Comerowitz Plateau, which really pretty much engrossed me with all things desert sheep. And it's just the doors that got presented and then got lucky enough. As soon as I got done with that project, I got hired as the biologist for that exact area. And, you know, just one thing leads to another. And, you know, your, your, your fascination with sheep starts. Um, everybody has a starting place. And for me, you know, when I left, when I left state employment, um, you know, and, and the thought hit me of, wow, maybe I ought to get my, get a guide license so I can actually hunt sheep. Because like you've alluded, your dad drew.

And then if you just sat back and waited for the next, you know, Rocky hunt or desert hunt that you're ever going to go on, I mean, you only drew three or four years ago. You know what I'm saying? If you don't make something happen, it's probably not going to happen. Um, it isn't, you know, some people, we talk to them every year here at Epic Outdoors, but you know, I drew a desert tag last year and I got a Rocky this year. I mean, there's, there's those guys, but for the most part, pretty rare at all. Yeah. You've got to make some things happen. And the thin horn stuff up North, you know, you know, all of us non-residents are going to have to make something happen when, when financially and time and physically and family situations and working all that line, you got to put some money on the line. And like I said, it was 2000, I think it was like 2006 or seven for me.

I remember the first five grand I put down towards my first doll sheep hunt. It felt like at the time, even though I had my wife's blessing, I'd talked about it for four or five years where dirt poor, I was probably 30 years old. I don't know when I was at the time. Um, but it was, uh, maybe 33 and, uh, it felt like the last dime I had to my name. I was so scared to put that, you know, five grand and it was a cancellation hunt, five grand. It was at the time, you know, mid two thousands, it was, you know, in the time where I was in life, it was just one of those things that I, I'd worked a lot for, saved a lot for them. When the opportunity camp came, I jumped on it, but it was, it was something now that I look back on, uh, to the, all of these things, the graduate school, my time as a biologist, um, you know,

starting to guide sheep hunters as a means to just hunt sheep more than let's face it, a handful of times in your life was, is all, I didn't foresee myself, you know, when I was a kid, I'm going to become a sheep hunting guide and I'm going to be offing sheep. I didn't think of that. It just kind of happens and it's hard to explain. Well, you gotta, um, you gotta put some more, you won't accidentally end up sheep hunting. So I know one of the reasons I really enjoy it is that it takes effort. It takes sacrifice. I mean, you talk about the five, five grand in 2008, when I went to, on my first, uh, doll sheep hunt, I left the guide with more money than I had in the bank. When I went home, literally he had more, he, I left him with more than I had in net worth going home. And it's like, that was the smartest thing to do. Probably not at the time, you know,

economy was tanking, you know, I was unemployed at the time. Yeah, I was unemployed at the time. Economy had tanked and it's just like, well, you know what? You're not going to look back and go like, I should have put it in a 401k and that, that, you know, you're not just, you're just not going to accidentally end up hunting sheep. And that's why I love it. Cause it's just, uh, it takes some sacrifice. You have to plan like even, yeah, none of it comes easily. Even, even the, even the really expensive ones, it's a lot of money, no matter how much money you make. I mean, I guys that are far wealthier than anything I'd ever see, even them, it's, it's a big, it's a big, it's a big nut to crack. So, um, but the things that you look back on and that you love the most are the hardest, the most sacrifice that, you know, again, I, you know, your deer tag every

year that you get as a general tag doesn't mean nearly as much as your one doll sheep hunting opportunity. And for whatever reason that is. So, yeah. Well, and, and maybe this was like for you, you know, that first hunt, which, you know, you never know if that's your only doll sheep of your life. Like you said, it feels like the chips are the center of the table and here we go. And, you know, here we are, you know, 10, 15 years later, whatever it is. And you've hunted dolls a few more times and going to go again this year. So it wasn't your one and only, but, but it feels everyone that I go on, even this, this other one, I'm going to go to BC on this year feels like, Oh, this is probably going to be my, my, you know, I'd never thought I'd go hunt another stone sheep, just doors open opportunities open. And something I didn't feel like I could pass up,

just like every other sheep hunt that I guess you and I maybe try to go on is when an opportunity hits you in the face, you just go and you don't know I I'm, I'm viewing this and this probably my, my only other stone sheep hunt. Maybe it's not, but I'm treating it like that and moving all the chips to the table, not just from a, Hey, I want to kill the biggest ram in North America, just that I'm going to be physically prepared. Um, I'm rare, I'm ready to go. I'm going to an area I feel is, uh, you know, not getting hunted maybe as hard as it can or should or would or could. And a Joe Blow guy off the street, um, like, like myself might kill kind of like the place in Alaska might kill as good a ram as anybody in North America. And, uh, not that I feel like I'm spoiled and only need a good ram. I'm not going up there with any preconceived notions of what I'm going to bring

home. But when I see the ram that I want, I'm going to know it. And, uh, you know, if that's the last stone sheep hunt I ever get to go on, um, for whatever reason we can't foresee, but when you can do stuff, just move the chips to the table, center of the table and go for it. Yeah. It's, I tell you, I've, I've had more opportunities than just about anybody I know. And, uh, but they all feel pretty special. Like you'd never, you never get up to a ram you've taken or, or, you know, I mean the majority of sheep I've been on have been other people's homes. And I, if I don't have a sheep hunt for myself, I'm going with somebody else, no matter what if I get a plane ticket, whatever I got to do, um, they all feel special. And then when you do get a, you know, an opportunity for yourself or like in 15, when I drew a Rocky

tag or man, those ones are, you know, you can truly appreciate them because you realize over decades, how rare those opportunities are. You do hear about people drawing twice or winning, but that generally doesn't happen to guys like us or to many people. I mean, it's such a small percentage of people that get those opportunities. So yeah, you just take advantage when you can. And, uh, yeah, you never know what ones you're, you know, yeah. Yeah. You have bad luck or whatever you, there's people all the time in there, you know, we're in our forties, you get bad luck and blow out a knee back, you know, whatever. And then you're set back for five or 10 years and then age is catching up on you. I mean, just when you, while you can do stuff, whatever it is, um, within reason. And I will put that cause my wife listens to these podcasts and, uh, she, she knows everything I do. Both of our

eyes are wide open going into those, but when you can do stuff, do it. Just, just don't put, put it off. I mean, we've talked about that ourselves. Um, I mean, you've alluded to, to Ray and others, you know, I've had some sheep clients the last five years that have just had some, um, just been dealt some bad cards of life. That's a simple way you can put it. And, uh, if they hadn't have done some of the things that they had done when they did them thinking, you know, that they had plenty of time to do them, it had been too late. Um, you know, it would have been, you know, had a client last year and, um, that, that became, that became painfully obvious during the course of that hunt. Um, you know, he passed away three and a half months after he killed his ram. And so it just, you just don't know. Um, and, uh, you know, something means something to you. Um, go for

it, do it within reason. Don't, don't compromise your family. Don't compromise your job. But, but if you want to hunt sheep, you just gotta say, there's, there's a way I'm going to do it. And, and like I said, I look forward, like you said, to, you know, the dozen or more clients I get to take every year, you know, it wasn't, I didn't intend to get into sheep guiding as, as, uh, Hey, I want to, I want to guide a lot of sheep hunter. I just wanted to hunt some sheep. And now it turns into frankly, more than I can frankly add to my schedule every year. We ended up turning clients away regrettably just for timing or situations with what I got in our schedule. And, you know, you're not going to take somebody if, uh, you're not going to do their hunt as good a justice as you would on your own hunt. But, uh, I know you've been on a part of a bunch of special rams, not just in Montana,

but in, you know, other places as well, whether it be Mexico, whether it be New Mexico, whether it be California. Um, they're all, they're all, I don't know if you do it, you'll figure it out. Most people figure it out. Yeah. They're all pretty special. And yeah, it's funny you get to a point where, like you said, with the time, I basically, uh, aside from a couple Rockies a year, I don't hardly guide anymore. I don't have the time with the work and, uh, that's, yeah, it is regrettable, but, uh, you, you make the best of it and yeah, I get on every one I can, but yeah, I'd love to, I'm hoping, I'm hoping you kill a great big old, great big old desert down there. And, uh, and yeah, your stone sheep hunt will be, uh, it'll be awesome to see what you get, what you can turn up. And that's the, the, the stone

sheep hunting is such a fun thing because you know, there's just not that many of them, but you just never know what you're going to bump into. Um, you want to talk about, nobody's got them pre-scouted. Nobody's seen something there's flying doesn't help. Like you got to go in there. Timber in places. You got to go dig one of those things out. Yeah. Yep. That's right. Well, let's talk also about before we, you know, we can't, you've killed a couple. I know you've killed a, I don't want to say a handful, but three or four brown bears. It feels like that I know about two, two really. Okay. Maybe the others are grizzlies. Okay. All right. I lumped some grizzly and two brown bears. Yep. Okay. But, but you killed it just a, just a tank, um, last year, brown bear with the Lance, uh, Kronberger and his crew. And you know, we, when we ran your ad in our,

in our magazine, Epic Outdoors, uh, which is just within seconds of post arrow, um, release and you hunkered down and, and, uh, your trademark, no, no hat, you know, I guess your blonde hair did, your blonde hair did blend into the, to the yellow grass there at that time. But that was a pretty epic picture. Got a lot of guys ask us if that was legitimate. And I'm like, yeah, you want to see the YouTube video, just go to QU's website and watch that. And I'm sure I know you and I joked about that too. I've watched it many times, you know, of course me and my boy have watched it together and, uh, what an epic, uh, hunt that was to come together and what a, just a giant bear. And tell me, let's talk a little bit about these giant bears, you know, and this year, I don't know how much is out of the hat, but you killed it just a giant grizzly as well this spring. And so

tell me what it is about these big bears that seems like you've got, um, I don't want to call it a new cause it, cause it obviously isn't a new, um, I guess desire to hunt these giant bears, because if you've watched the video on your, on your brown bear, that's something that was, um, fostered years and years ago. Um, um, but tell me, I guess after we just got done talking about sheep, how do these bears fit in and what is it about them? That's, I mean, you've obviously killed a couple of giants in this last year and a half, but what is it about them that really trips your trigger? Well, yeah, the bears are, I would say if, uh, if we're talking about an Olympic podium, uh, the, the bears have slid into, uh, onto the podium now, like, uh, big bears, elk and sheep are, are what I love to hunt now. And, um, you know, the, the bear thing is honestly, it's one of those

things until you see one and actually get to put your hands on one. Like you can, you can look at those photos, you can look at videos, but until you actually grab ahold of one, you just can't imagine how big they are. They're like, it's shocking how, how enormous they are. I love hunting anything in Alaska and, uh, yeah, the, the, the bow hunting and brown bears is, uh, I guess why I love it is cause you just, you just can't fake it. Like you have to be contained. You have to be the mentality that it takes to hold your composure. Um, and I didn't always have that. I mean, I, I messed up on one in 2003 and I thought about it for a long, long time. And, uh, yeah, it's just, you, you can't fake that one. You just got to go do it. Um, you don't know how you're going to react, but it's, uh, it's just an, it's, it just stirs something in you to chase a giant predator like that

where, you know, at the end of the day, that thing can beat you. It can maul you. It can like, they're a dangerous animal. There's no doubt about it. They're scary up close. Um, but to take one of the bows, you know, that's, that's kind of where, man, that's where I enjoy it. That's where I enjoy the challenge and I enjoy, I thoroughly enjoy how I react in those situations and just knowing how you're going to react like anything. And, uh, and it's, it's funny. You know, I mean, like I, I, uh, it's a combination of things too. I mean, you know, I couldn't do that unless I knew that the guy backing me up had it totally covered. I mean, when you know, like Lance and I have a really close relationship, I know he's got me covered. And, um, when you get in that type of situation, you have to absolutely trust who's got you backed up. And it allows me the freedom to,

to, to, to make a move or to get on one of those big bears and, uh, and make it happen. And sometimes it's not going to work out, you know, but there, there's just an incredible thing to hunt. I mean, I think people look at those and go like, you know, like there's some kind of cartoonish thing or like, they are an absolute, just that's the biggest land predator on the planet. I mean, they, they are there. I mean, if you see a, it's amazing to think about, but like a brown bear is the largest land predator on the, on the planet. If you see a brown, a brown bear, that's the size of a tiger or a lion, it's a dink. That's how big they are. They are the biggest meat eater that's out there. And they're, they're just, they're, they're, it's, it's incredible. It's not just, it's just incredible to see them and, you know, they're old and they're giant. Like I said,

if you ever get a chance to see one in person, they're, it's shocking how big they are. And it's just an incredible hunt. It's the elements are, you know, it's horrible weather generally. And, and they're just pretty rare, you know, so it's, it's just a fun, fun deal. Well, I, I, you know, I've talked to Lance many times about possibly putting something together, but I just, for whatever reason, it, maybe it is because I haven't had a close encounter or an up close and personal encounter or something yet to really, you know, which is sometimes what it takes, like we've just talked about with sheep. I mean, frankly, you start having some close encounters or something that, that then your mind almost romantic, uh, romanticizes about what that event really was and what you want the next one to be like and all that. I haven't had that yet.

So I haven't had that. I haven't booked a hunt for either a big grizzly or, or a brown bear yet. I assume that will happen at some point for me in the future, but I haven't, but, but watching your video, you know, there was some pretty cool moment. There was some pretty rawness there, I guess. Uh, when you let the arrow go, your initial reaction was to turn and, you know, it did it, you know, I did it, I did it. You look back at the crew at Lance, of course, he wasn't watching you. He's watching a bear with an arrow in him, but, but, and then you turn back and then you kind of crunch down and then he starts running away. You jump up again, but they're like, Oh shit, I better turn back and I better make sure this thing's not coming at me again. It was, it was a pretty cool two or three back and forth. You know what I mean?

And, and I'm sure you had the emotions were just hitting. You're like, I did it. I know I center punched it, but yeah, he's not down yet, but I want to celebrate with my crew and all, I better hide. You know, it was, it was all that running 50 miles an hour, you know, uh, uh, uh, really, it was funny how it, how it happened is, uh, Lance told me to go. We both simultaneously said go. It was, it was in a pretty, you know, he's down off the beach there and he was on the beach and I was on the top and it was like, it was obvious I had to, you know, I needed to just make it happen quickly. And I actually wasn't celebrating. I told Lance, I will let you know if I hit him good. Yep. Cause it, it seemed like that. Maybe now that when you, when you go back and watch it now, knowing that, like I told her, I said, I'll let

you know if I, that I hit him good. I just wanted to confirm. That's what that was about. You'll know. That's why I get pretty animated is that I got him. He's going to die. Yeah. And that's it. Yeah. And that scenario, if I don't let Lance know that I got him good, when that bear turns around and comes up the bank, if he doesn't know what, that I hit him good, he's going to shoot. And he should, I mean, in all, in all likelihood. And that's the thing that I think people don't understand about, about those big bears and those kinds of encounters. And, and, and especially with archery is, you know, you're asking a guy to make a decision based on a different angle and something. I mean, you're talking when you let an arrow go, you know, he's got to make a decision in a split second based on a different

angle, based on what he thinks you saw. Is that a lethal arrow or not? Yeah. And, and I got the, the bear is going to get away wounded. I got shot bear or he's going to worse. He's going to turn and we're going to have a problem because there was no cover on that hunt. And for anybody that doesn't know this, that we're talking about, go to your website and check out this, uh, it's called the footsteps of giants. It's on Kuyu and yeah, it's just, go check it out. It's pretty, it's pretty cool. And like I said, it's just, it was just a thrill, but yeah, the thing about the hunting, those kinds, like I said, I just aired a really big grizzly bear with Lance, uh, about a month ago. Is there another, it'll be coming out on film, another incredible. Tell us a little bit about that, unless you don't want to spill the beans too much, but it was, it was a giant. It was awesome bear. And that was

an eight foot nine really big bear, similar situation. And, and, and again, I'm just, um, um, you know, it's kind of one of those things when you find somebody that you can hunt with that you both are kind of on the exact same page and you don't have to say anything and just kind of know, like you're, you're thinking in the same way. It's a pretty cool thing because that's Lance and I've hunted together enough and he, you know, it's like I said, I, it gives you the ability and Lance may not be that guy for you. You know, there's, there's a, there's a lot of really good brown bear guys out there or grizzly bear guys that, but when you find somebody that you're on the same page, it sure makes it a lot easier. And similar deal just got, got a little bit of free reign and made a big, pretty good move on a, on a really big bear and ended up at 22 yards. And yeah, the grizzlies are, they're

a little bit different than the brown bears. They're definitely got a spicier attitude to, towards them. They're, they're a little, they're a little meaner initially. I think it's a little hungrier country that they live in. They're not as much of a scavenger. So yeah, it was pretty cool there. Again, I just, I really enjoy, you know, you see people how they react and some react well and some don't. And at the end of the day, if you, you know, I love hunting them because I want to know how I'm going to react. I do this because it's a challenge and pushing yourself to the edge where it does matter. It is a lot of pressure. It is something that could go bad and you want to see how you perform in that situation, whether it's athletics or flying or anything else. Yeah. I was going to say, it's a lot like, it's high level stuff. And a lot like athletics. Yeah. It's a lot like a game seven,

you know, some NBA finals or world series. I mean, in a way it's like, this is all the preparation, all the shooting, all the gear, all the everything here it is. And there's a lot can go, you're right. And there's a lot that could go really bad, you know, and, uh, you know, failing is, is not just a big buck or bull when Jenny blows out. This is a, this is a situation between you and, and, uh, your guides and your crew and everybody else there. So that's awesome. I mean, it's very, it surprised me a little bit when, when, uh, you got home and you hit me, you know, for me, killing the kind of bears that you just did, I would feel like can't get better. And it may not. And I'm not saying that if you go hunt bears again, it's like, I'm trying to top both of those in size or whatever. But I, uh, I was a little surprised that you said that you're

probably, that's going to be on your schedule for every year for the near future. Because for most people, it feels like, um, you kill a giant brown bear, a giant grizzly, especially with a bow, like I did it, you know, that's the pinnacle. I can't get better. And I would argue that a couple of those two bears you just shot, it probably can't or likely won't, you know, in terms of just how they all happen and the size of bears. But what is it about, I guess you want to keep, keep hunting them. I mean, you've talked a little bit about it, but it feels more like, I don't know, for sheep or big deer for me, it's like, I can never get enough. It feels like if I check those off on a big, big brown bear with my bow, it's like, man, I did it. But, but sounds like, man, you're ready for more. Yeah. It's just, it's the challenge and it's the adventure. It's the area, you know,

I mean, I'd like to hunt, you know, a Brooks range grizzly and, you know, some of the other ones, see some of those other, other bears and reality, like, yeah, it's kind of funny. I don't have really checklist stuff anymore. Like I need to get one of them. I'm not collecting animals or anything. I'm collecting adventures and, and really cool country and, and big stuff. So it's, it's just, it's a heck of a challenge. Um, I was actually second shooter on this one. It was pretty, pretty interesting. I got invited, um, as an add on, I was second shooter. Um, we got my buddy Will's son killed a, kill a really big bear, uh, about eight hours before I, I got a chance to stock this bear. So I was actually second shooter with a, with a bow. I was just kind of an add along. So it was, uh, it was just really cool. And yeah, it's, it's, it's just,

there's not a lot of guys that have done it. And, uh, and it's fun to, uh, it's just really, it's just really a challenge to, to really control yourself and, and, you know, and bear hunting, it's like, it's so hit or miss too. And we could have literally gone 10 days without seeing one, or you could, there was a hot sow in the area and we had a couple of big boars come strolling through and you're in the right place at the right time, just like anything. And, uh, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's very cool. I hope everybody gets a chance to do it. It's, it's, it's definitely misunderstood and, uh, it's a real adventure. Like it, it looks from the outside is like, man, that's crazy. Like it's, it really is an adventure. It's, it's worth doing. Very cool. Yeah. That's awesome. Well, what else we've, we've talked about? Well, if you're bear hunting, you just

got done doing, you got a couple of sheep hunts and an elk hunt, uh, planned for this year. Anything else on tap for 2019 we need to be looking forward to a report on? Yeah. I mean, just work as far as, uh, hunting, I think that's going to fill me out pretty good. Um, you know, there's lots of work. We got some, got some really cool new products coming at KU and, uh, some, some new stuff coming. So keep an eye out for that. And yeah, man, just, just staying after it, just keeping, keeping the focus and, uh, yeah, enjoying the hunting and, uh, yeah, I'll take my, take my son out this fall a few times, hopefully. And my daughter's about four now and just about to turn four. She'll be ready to go on a little trip. So yeah. Awesome. Aside from the big trips, just trying to, trying to get the next generation addicted like I am.

Balance it all out. Yeah. Family, wife and home state stuff there. That's awesome. Well, we sure look forward to, you know, some of your adventures. We usually see about, uh, see, uh, see about them on, uh, QU's website or Instagram or things like that. The Ram Hustle is not the most, uh, uh, actively poster on Instagram. Um, but that, that's funny. You probably have more followers than anybody I know with zero posts. So that's that. And maybe that's kind of a feather in your cap, but, uh, I chuckle every time, but, and I know you don't keep track of that, but I chuckle every time I, if you comment on something of mine or something like that, I'm like, uh, he's probably has more followers than anybody I know with zero posts. But it's awesome. And, uh, wish you the best on a couple of those hunts. Um, I know I leave

in three weeks. Uh, yeah, I am, I am too. So it'd be fun to compare notes when we get home and, and I'm sure we'll do a podcast from you with you later this fall, uh, about just how everything ended up a couple of sheep hunts there. I know, uh, we've got some other things we're working on with you guys, uh, to you along with, uh, Justin Schaefer, uh, kind of a wounded warrior hunt that we're putting together with you guys that we'll be highlighting here later on this fall. So looking forward to that. We appreciate your support of us. You guys, like I said, we, we've known you from day one, literally. Um, uh, we knew Jason prior to day one, QU obviously back, uh, in the front, his former life, as we'll call it, uh, in our former life where Jason and I were at the time, but appreciate a partnership we've been able to be

a part of. We'd love more than anything just relating to and talking, hunting and things like that. And I think our listeners, you know, it's pretty apparent talking to you, uh, about your drive, uh, about doing things that are hard. Uh, I, uh, you know, there's some hunts that we go on, you and I both know that are, that are easy. And then there's others that, you know, that are like, well, this is, uh, this is going to, you know, get up the game to try to make this happen. And, uh, yeah, I think there's, you know, various stages of hunting life, you know, um, you go through different, um, motivating factors of why you go and do what you do. And, uh, yeah, I think we've talked a lot about that today and, and wish you luck on some of your hunts along with some of those that you're going with this year. Well, same to you. I'm looking forward to seeing how I'll turn,

so, uh, how all your stuff turns out this fall and yeah, any of the, any questions anybody has about any gear or anything, hit me up anytime, Bren BXU or, uh, or get the customer service or anything. Yep. We're, uh, appreciate, appreciate the business, appreciate the opportunity. And, uh, thanks very much. Okay, man. All right. Be safe. All right.