EP 141: Change Creates Opportunity

Change creates opportunity. You should be thinking about a lot of different options and evaluating your age, you know, what's happening around you. And so, it'll take limited entry points versus general points. Anything to do with Western big game. Welcome to the Epic Outdoors podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody, Jason Carter, Adam Bronson, John Peterson coming at you from Vegas down here at SHOT Show. We're trying to get the freak out of the city and head back to Cedar City. It was raining on us down here. In fact, we looked at the radar. There's rain everywhere. Rain, snow, antlers are growing. Well, actually, it's starting to get shed. Deer shedding. Elk should be shedding. But we're super excited about what's in store for 2020. Before we get started, we want to thank Under Armour. We appreciate their support.

Just met with them down here at SHOT Show, and there's a lot of fun things coming at you. In fact, we got a few changes, some increased partnerships with Epic Outdoors Crew and some awesome new companies. That's right. Where were we last week? Last week, we were wild sheep. In fact, well, a couple of us were shooting coyotes on the way to wild sheep. Yeah, we actually drove out there, and you know, we were leaving town, and we felt like we forgot something.

Like 5 a.m. Yeah. My wife's in the car. Yeah. Devin, Wyatt, myself, Jason, Janet. We knew we needed to grab a coyote gun, and sure glad we did. Both coming and going. It's pretty funny. We're like going to my house to grab the old Ruger M77, probably built in 1972. And she's like, really? We're going back to the house? Really? Oh, yeah. Come on. And we smoked a couple dogs coming and going. It was fun. Had a great show there in Reno as well. Saw a lot of members. Great way to connect with our members there. Great show. We've always been partners from day one with Wild Sheep Foundation and Epic Outdoors. I believe in what they do. Of course, we've had our chance to hunt some sheep over the years, but it's just a great way to connect with our members and, you know, sell some memberships, but mainly meet and greet.

Have some one-on-one interaction consulting with members as the new draw year is upon us. Yeah, it was an awesome show. It's really hard for us here at Epic. I mean, our company, we're very personalized, customized, dealing with people, consulting, writing publications. These are a lot of job responsibilities. We don't just take lightly and pay other people to do it, although we do have some great guys on our crew and have a super team. We couldn't ask for better people, but at the same time, we're just so involved, it's hard to get away. And so, we're trying to go to these shows, meet people, and do the best to show our support. And of course, we appreciate the support you all show us. But anyway, a few days away from the office is somewhat crippling at times, especially this time of year.

And same thing down here at SHOT Show. We do a day here and a day there, and try to go home and work from daylight till dark. So anyway, it's a fun time of year. It's also a busy time of year. And, you know, we kind of enjoy this application season. John wasn't able to join us. John, what were you doing last week? Putting the final touches on some stuff? Yeah, putting the final touches on the February magazine. It actually should be shipping shortly, so that one will be hitting mailboxes pretty soon. Yeah, that one's online. We got the eMag up online. I haven't told the world about it, but anyway, I guess we did. How's that? Go on there and check it out. It has Oregon, New Mexico, and Utah inside. So, anyway.

We'll do a better job on maybe the next podcast. We'll do a breakdown of that, go through some of the changes in each state, each of those three states, as far as what to look forward to. Some pretty significant changes in both Utah and New Mexico, and we'll get to those. But today at the SHOT Show had an awesome day. Like Jason said earlier, it's a great way to meet with some of our partners, advertising partners, and other partners that we have in the industry. And we're going to have some big announcements, I believe, to our Epic Outdoors members that will be in the form of some new partnerships that we have, as well as just some new things in our business. Maybe even a little expansion, let's say that. Yeah, but well within the same realm. We're not going to start selling hot dogs or anything like that. Bun, please, and I love mustard. But anyway, no, it's...

We're not going to spread ourselves too thin, but we do have some exciting things that we think go hand in hand with what we already do, and that's just talking, researching, writing, consulting about Western big game. Before we get too deep into it, I probably want to just mention something about all of the photos that we received for that February magazine, and also for the March already they've come in. Just lots and lots of response. Overwhelming. Members are just sending in. Man, members had a great year this last year and sent in pictures. And so, that magazine is so jam-packed with content that a lot of member photos are going to have to be saved for later on in the year. So, if you send in your photos, thank you so much. You might have to wait a little bit, but we'll try to get them all in there in the future. But don't be disappointed if you're not in that February magazine.

Yeah, if you want to throw something to us there, you can email it at photos at epicoutdoors.com. P-H-O-T-O-S at epicoutdoors.com. We sure appreciate it. Send it to us. And then, yeah, if you have any side notes you want to throw in there, comments, maybe podcast ideas, sure would appreciate some of that as well. And I think if you killed something that's special, you know, don't be afraid to write a story or do a write-up. You really don't be intimidated by it. I talked to so many guys who are intimidated to write a story and, you know, don't think they're a writer. Don't worry about it. Just kind of write down what happened on the hunt and share it. We're a community that's all, you know, got very similar interests and passion, and so just kind of tell us what happened and share your photos with us.

It's great to see the successes of, you know, when we preach applying and building points and doing the right research, and then a guide draws a great tag, has a great hunt. It's fun to read about. You want to just write a paragraph or two, we'll throw a snapshot in there, and enlarge your photos and whatnot, and you'll be able to check it out. I like those as much as a story. A lot of times, we're just, I don't know, I'm a picture book guy. It's like pretend I'm three years old. I like pictures. So, anyway. Well, those are really easy to submit on the website. Go to our website, epicoutdoors.com, and just hit on the menu to submit a story to us or a snapshot. And then, just, there's a couple questions you answer. Skip any that you want to skip, and submit your photos to us.

Speaking of our website, I'd like to just throw a little plug out there. We do have a few new options on there, Bronson. Well, the point tracker feature, you know, a lot of people, you might have your own way of tracking your state ID numbers, your points for you and your family and whatnot, Which we all do this day and age. Everybody's got username and passwords practically, and it's somewhat ridiculous how big a spreadsheet has to be to just be able to get into a state system. But anyway, we had, you know, our odds have been on our website for several years now, drawing odds for all the western states. Not just, you know, the magazine has those in there, but we don't have every single unit in the state in many instances. There's just too many to put in the magazine. So, we have them on our website under the members section once you log in.

But, we had a few people, you know, actually quite a few comments, asked to maybe add a point tracker feature on there because what we're finding is when people are going on there to look up drawing odds for the various states and, you know, minimum point queries and things like that, they wanted a place they could quickly go look and see how many points they had

I had it right there in the same place. It makes complete sense. Realize you don't want to have to, you know, if you're at work or whatever, and you have spreadsheets at home on your home computer, you don't have all your points. You don't want to have to wait until you get home. You want to look up your odds, look at what your points were right there, plug them in, you know, see what you got. So, we've added that feature recently in the process of updating state drawing odds state by state in a rapid fashion, one after another. Obviously, the states that are opening first, If you want to go to the point trackers, you know, they're going to appear first, because people are going to want that data first. But the point tracker is going to be a neat feature just to be able to store your stuff there so that when you go there to do the research of what you can draw,

what your odds are with your various points, your points are right there. Again, only able for you to see under your member login. You know, I kind of like that feature. Many times, Bronson will hit me and say, They'll hit me and say, hey, take a break and go check out how many points your wife has, go check out how many points you have, and I'm going and logging into Utah Game & Fish or Nevada or Arizona or wherever. And, you know, and then that starts a discussion for a half hour, and then we go back to doing statistics early in the morning. And so, this will be kind of nice. It's actually nice. We have a Dropbox. You know, I have a little Excel spreadsheet and put it, throwing in a Dropbox that's on my phone or my computer or whatever.

But it'll be kind of nice to have it where people are looking up their odds, and they can run over it just a couple clicks away from the points they have, and be able to check things out. And of course, we could, you know, track our kids or wives or whatever. You know, another thing I was thinking we should add on there is maybe a little hunt planner where we can actually log in some dates and maybe some options of things that we're thinking about. You know, I've got, of course, I've got your hunt schedule lined out for you, and you've kind of outlined a few options for me. Those are very fluid. Those are very, those are first drafts. Jason caught me one day, I was just spewing on, you know, wanting to... Oregon OTC. No, that did not come up. AZOTC. No, those were not on there, I'm pretty sure. Colorado OTC. Pretty positive. Huh? Pretty positive those were not on there.

But the ones that I did say that I might consider burning my points on this year, you know, Colorado deer, Nevada deer, Arizona deer, he put them in stone. He's gonna try to hold me to all three of those in one year and make it so I can't do any of them justice. You got me doing three and four antelope hunts. Well, that's, those are two-day trips, and you know, that's an hour for hunting when you show up and then another day's drive back home. So, anyway, we're gonna make sure Carter gets a grand slam of antelope. We're gonna try to get four in one year. He's already got two lined up. Four of... We're gonna try to get four. Let's get a Utah somehow, maybe an expo tag, something like that. It'd be kind of cool if they had a different name, but where they're all the same name, it's just a little weird. Yeah, well, how about just four of them? A quad pod of antelope. How's that?

A quad pod of freaking speed goes. A quad plot of two points. Anyway, speaking of the Western Hunting Conservation Expo, that's coming up in about three weeks. It is over the 14th because, you know, Valentine's Day for all of you hunters. It always been Valentine's Day up there in Salt Lake. Yeah, it's a great, I mean, a phenomenal way to take your wife on a nice date. Cupid lives in Salt Lake. Isn't that a great place? I mean, I'm sure every wife or, you know, girlfriend listening to this podcast would agree. There's no place on earth they'd rather be taken to a place of a bunch of other hunters. Looking at big bucks, bulls, rams, everything like that, and having your husband or boyfriend just talking about all their wants and wishes and how much time they're going to be gone all this next fall. Away from the family. That's right.

But there is the Rhodesio Grill, and every girl likes a good meat bar, you know what I mean? I mean, Cedar City doesn't have a Rhodesio Grill. We do usually go there and get fed on protein. Cheesecake Factory, what else? Is that what that's called, John? Cheesecake Factory, Willy Wonka's Chocolate Factory, I don't know. Anyway, we will be there, Epic Outdoors. We're glad to be going there. It's another great way to connect with our members. And apply for the extra five dollar tags at the Western Herndon Conservation Expo. The Full Curl Society will be on the Saturday. We have been and continue to be a sponsor of that event. We love seeing people get wild and crazy when their name gets drawn, they get to go on a sheep hunt. And we'll be there on Saturday there at the Western Heron Conservation Expo for the Full Coral Society. And we're sponsoring that.

Yeah, we'll be sponsoring that again. We'll also be doing a podcast during a seminar. What? Oh yeah, we did decide that. Yeah, I think we've committed to that on the air. We're going to do a live podcast in a seminar. It's basically going to crush a lot of our experiences hunting the West. So, we're going to talk about how we got the tag, and talk you through it. It'll kind of naturally bring up some of our thought processes behind how we got on those hunts. Anyway, I believe that's Friday evening, if I'm not mistaken. When I say evening, I think it's about 5 or 530. Yeah, right there. That's right. Check it out on HuntExpo.com. It's got the schedule right under Seminars on the main menu. Yeah. So, here we are. We're headed northbound. We've left Vegas, Sin City, heading to another sinful city, Mesquite.

And, anyway, as we're doing such, you know, there was one thing that was crossing my mind as we're talking about some of these hunts. What, you know, I talked about it a little bit in this February magazine that's online, is how change creates opportunity. And Adam alluded to it. We talked about all kinds of changes that are occurring in Utah, and a few other changes around, you know, In the different states that we're discussing these next few issues, but, you know, hunt season dates, and new seasons, and new hunts, and, you know, things like that. And so, basically, you know, changes is how we've capitalized on a lot of our hunts, Bronson. It has. I mean, if you go back even to, I can't, I don't know if you could call these changes, but they kind of are new. Both the time that you drew in 2004 and I drew in 2008, our California Bighorn tags in Oregon, were brand new.

The units were ever open to non-residents, and so it was a new change. It doesn't mean that they were going to go under the radar. I mean, your odds were... 1 in 409. Mine were 1 in 217. Don't ask us how we both remember those, but we do. Anyhow, but there's other opportunities with season date changes or creations of brand new units. Case in point, you've drawn a couple of New Mexico tags for elk, and I drew one last year. We'll just call them off the radar because they're not terrible units, but they're just not proven. But they're off the radar. They're not proven, so it's like you're kind of going to be a guinea pig. So, part of this is we're looking at, like, these hunts that he's talking about specifically were very low-tag units. And so, there's just not a lot of animals being killed, so there's not a lot of 350 bulls being killed.

And so, everybody's kind of nervous to go and spend time there and to really utilize those hunts, not knowing really what's there, because the product of what's there is just kind of a product of who's drawing it and how much time those people are allocating to the hunt. So, sometimes, you know, success, kill percentages, and sizes of game taken isn't necessarily 100% indicative of what the unit's capable of producing. Because when you have low tag numbers, you have low hunter numbers, and we have low hunter numbers, and they're all on a draw process. You can't buy unit-wide tags there, meaning tags that are good for the public land as well.

Then you end up with the random guys that draw, and their capabilities time-wise, money-wise, being able to hire somebody, not hire somebody, or just flat hunting capabilities, or what their trophy desires are to be able to know what the unit's capable of producing. So, once in a while, you hear of a 350 bull or something. It doesn't necessarily mean everybody's flocking to it, because nobody really knows what it's capable of. So, once in a while, Bronson, we're going out on a limb saying low tag numbers, or no tag numbers till this year, or a new rut season date means I get to hunt, potentially if I draw, giant bulls that are dying of old age.

Yeah, or just in a unique time frame that they've never been hunted. And we're talking about elk in this instance because we've both, you know, gone out on a limb, although maybe New Mexico isn't the best example because it's not a point system state. You can just, you can gamble a little bit. You can just roll the dice. You know, I've eaten tags in New Mexico before, and you know, just on these same type of hunts. But once in a while, they pay off, and they pay off bib. We both killed 380 plus bulls on units like this. The first time a new season's popped up in a unit, or a new season in a time frame that we feel is more conducive to killing a big bull. Bronson, I drew, and I say I drew, okay, I drew a tag twice in that same unit, and both times killed a 380 plus bull, but now I'm looking at it going, you know, it's kind of known a little bit.

Maybe the top's been creamed off now, but I'm definitely looking at the next available opportunity, and that's the one thing a good buddy of mine, Roger Smithson, said. He says, you know, guys are thinking that, you know, they're out thinking you, or they're with you, you hunted this unit this year, and that you're going to want to go back there, and they don't realize you're thinking two or three years away, and you're already ahead of them by two or three years. And I'm thinking, I can't even believe he's talking about this, because I don't even think that way. I don't think anything. All I think is what's new, what's exciting, and what do we want to do? We're always checking out new units.

Well, and case in point, you know, I drew a tag this year, and in a unit just like that, early season, rifle tag. Never had a rifle tag in recent times, or if ever. And I pulled the tag there to hunt the first part of October, killed a great bull, and yeah, while I'd like to go back, I'm just, it's just part of the hunger, I guess, of finding what's new. It's the hunt of finding something not totally undiscovered, but just something totally new that might be ripe. And, you know, that unit I hunted did not have a ton of elk. I killed a great bull just as easily. Could have ate my tag. I didn't go down there to just shoot an elk. I went down there to shoot a big bull or not shoot one. And it worked out. And you'll notice if you read Jason and I's articles in this first couple magazines of 2020, January and February,

We wrote application strategy articles as well as just kind of our little rants, if you will, in the magazines. And you're going to pick up a theme that we're going to keep hammering home a lot more, it feels like. Keep hammering. And that's to just go, don't be afraid to go hunt. Go out on a limb and try stuff. Don't be too conservative. Now, we all have points in certain states for certain species that you should protect and maybe get what you want. If you have 22 sheep points in Wyoming, you're in the driver's seat about getting a sheep tag. Pick the unit you want, wait until you want to get it, but don't wait too long. Your body's every year getting older, you know, things happen, you know, whatever. But if you're in the middle of the pack or chasing things that are moving targets, point creep, all that's alive and well,

man, we're hearing all the time in our minds of people that are overthinking, if we can phrase it that way, They're over-thinking to the point that they just apply way too conservatively. They end up either applying for points only or only the very, very best units. And their odds are so minuscule of drawing the tags they're actually applying for that they never go hunting. They never get what they want. And, by and large, most of the hunts that we're going on, Jason, are middle-of-the-road hunts that we have to get. You have to get tags to go hunting. I 100% agree. Just wait for Arizona Strip, Henry Mountains tags. Now, if you're in the max point pulling Arizona, okay, we're not telling you to bail. But we're just telling you, if you're not, you should be thinking about a lot of different options and evaluating your age, evaluating, you know, what's happening around you.

Different, these opportunities that we're talking about that pop up in different states, you know, whether it be Colorado, Wyoming, wherever. You know, don't be afraid to fail. Eat tags, you know, go out on a limb, make something out of it. Most of what we make out of our hunting schedules every year are not from elite tags. 100% agree with that, and I think it's kind of interesting you're talking about this because you did a flat smash and grab in New Mexico. You smashed a giant, and you stole a bull. And we talk about that fairly regularly. Stealing a bull, it means, you know, that bull on the open market would sell for $35,000, $40,000. You cannot find 380 plus bulls in tags for You can buy a commissioner's tag in Wyoming, $15,000 to $20,000, and you're going to hunt $350,000 plus bulls, $350,000, $360,000. A great bull on a tag like that would be a 370-inch

type bull, plus you're spending on top of that the guide fee of $85,000, $9,500, $10,500, depending on the particular situation, a ranch. And so, you add that together, you're talking You're doing a $25,000, $30,000 bill for a chance at a $360,000 to $380,000 type bull, and you did a smash and grab, freaking drew a unit through the outfitter draw, which is great. We use outfitters fairly regularly if there's an outfitter draw such as New Mexico or Nevada, a guide draw for deer. And so, to get the tags and get those hunts, that's a pretty nominal fee, so to speak, compared to the value of the hunt you enjoyed. I mean, in a day and a half, two days, you did a smash and grab on a freaking 380 bull, and it's awesome. You know, and so, what a great opportunity. And again, in a state that's not a point state, what are you giving up? This year, I can do whatever I want again.

You can do it again, and you're on the same playing field. You're giving up nothing. I have no expectations every year in Arizona of getting a tag. You just simply apply. I generally, on a couple species at least, perhaps sheep because you end up getting an extra tag, There's sometimes two through the outfitter draw versus the regular draw. And for me, that's worth it. Doubling my odds, or in some cases, it's tripled, but usually, it's about doubling your odds in some cases. It's worth it for me for the cost that I'm going to have to pay, work a deal with an outfitter to help me. I mean, I want to hunt sheep as many times in my life as I can. It's worth it for me to do that. And in the right year, I end up doing the guide draw for maybe deer or elk just to try to give me an advantage. Last year was shaping up to be a great moisture year, if you remember back when we were playing.

We thought, alright, this is one of those go-after tags in New Mexico year. That's not always the case in Arizona or New Mexico and the desert southwest. But last year, application time, you know, February, March, things were really, really wet. And it was one of those that I decided I'm gonna go the guide draw route, because I want to try to increase my chance to pull a tag. And in most cases, you do have better odds. Not always, but most cases you do. And in your particular situation, it was actually a little bit worse. Yeah, it worked out. It was worse. The guide draw was worse than the regular draw, and sometimes that happens. In fact, you'll see that in the sheep where it will flip-flop. Anyway, just one of those things where it's time, and this is another one of those years, there's rain and snow on a regular basis.

That's what's happening today. And so, our point is, is when it's time to apply, such as now, you know, you can fairly safely bet that Arizona's going to have a decent year, And it may turn off dry, and hot, and miserable, and suck, and whatnot. And then you point guard the shiz out of your application, that's the way we call it. And you can always turn that tag back one time. The next time you won't be able to do it. But for five bucks, you could turn that back. If it turned off absolutely hot, frickin' March 1st, it sucked, and you didn't get another drop of rain until August, yeah, I'd be turning that tag back. So, anyway, there's options like that. But we're playing it fairly aggressive. And I guess some of these changes in Utah, You know, there's some new opportunities for deer. Yeah, it may encompass, you know, those changes may be limited entry draw hunts on general season units.

And so, it'll take limited entry points versus general points, bonus versus preference. But anyway, you'll be able to read all about that. But our point is, is there's some opportunity there for guys with 10 to 15, 16 points that wouldn't otherwise really have a chance, and you always have a chance in Utah, but doesn't really have that good a chance of drawing a Poncigone. or Henry's, or Oak Creek's, or something special. And so, maybe there's an opportunity for you, and there's going to be a few absolute giants on the late muzzle hunts that are available in all the different general zones, as well as some of these hams hunts. There's just a few opportunities that we talk about at length in our publication in this February issue. Yeah, and Utah's a great example of everybody's wanting to chase the best of the best when it

When it comes to deer and elk, and everybody's bottlenecked in the same handful of deer units. Deer's probably not the best example. Jason talked about some of these late season muzzleloader hunts that are occurring on general season units. They're not super deep rut hunts, but it's going to spread applicants out. There's going to be a few great opportunities on that. When it comes to elk, you know, might be time for people to, you know, be a little bit more realistic You might evaluate the archery seasons, even though our dates are not phenomenal in Utah. They're early. August 15th to like September 11th, those are not phenomenal archery dates. They're not, but it's 28 days long, 28 days season. If that doesn't fit you, maybe look at the November hunts. I know Utah, everybody thinks of Utah hunting bulls in the rut every single day in September,

with either a bow, rifle, or muzzleloader. Every single day has an elk season. And that's naturally when you're going to want to key in on that. But naturally, that's when the drawing odds are the worst. You might be time for you to start looking at some of the late rifle hunts. If you're in the mid-teens or upper teens in points, and you're not going to ever catch those, and your age is catching up to you, and it's time to go hunt a bull, there's many of those late season hunts in Utah that are awesome. They're not like Arizona hunts, and all I mean by that is they don't have hundreds of tags in Utah on the late hunts. There's a couple units to do, but they're not crushing with two, three, four, five hundred tags. They're not. They're very, very good late hunts. They still don't have a lot of tags. There's still not a lot of non-resident tags, but the odds of drawing them are better,

and you're going to have a quality hunt for the most part on them. So, evaluate your situation. Be realistic. Go hunting. Don't die with a bunch of points. And I can't overemphasize that enough. Just don't die. How about that? Don't do that, but don't dive with a lot of points either. I think some of this part of the equation is, I used to have a good friend that would say, the best tag has been sent to your door, you're not even utilizing the best tag you're getting every year, and that was my general season deer tag. Yeah, we believe that. And we believe it, and as we're getting older and we're seeing some of these opportunities dissipate, we're also seeing some giants being crushed on some of these general units with guys that are, you know, working it hard. I mean, if you spend, Bronson, I mean, in everybody, I venture to say everybody's in this situation, okay, 98% of you out there.

You put less time in your backyard. If we put the same time that we put in Colorado, or Nevada, or whatever, some, let's say it was a once-in-a-lifetime draw in Arizona. You put that same time, energy, and money into your backyard, you would see a significant difference in the quality of trophies you're taking. How about this? John, you listening? Yep. I'm gonna make a... Let's make a pact right now. We're gonna do that for 2020. We're gonna ramp it up, ramp up our efforts on our general season tags. And I don't even know what we're gonna draw this year, but I will make that commitment, because we have talked about it, and talked about it, and talked about it. That we get... We look at everything out of state, and we think that that's somehow better, and gonna give us more If we have a more opportunity of killing something big, I don't always think that's going to be the case.

And let's make a pact. This year, one of us is going to kill, I about said 200. I don't know if I want to say 200. How about we start with a great buck? Well, John's chasing a buck with cheaters out both sides. It's a 31, 32-inch. I mean, let's just say it the way it is. John, I don't know where the heck you found it. I know you're being quiet. Maybe we need to do a whole podcast on that buck and see if we can just slip up. You found one last year, Jason. I mean, did you even hunt it? Did you even hunt a deer? Oh, no. I didn't even hunt one day, and that's the thing I did. So, anyway, a few things. There's just, I guess, here's our point. We're not telling you to go out and be a general season deer hunter or elk hunter. Not really advocating that. We are, here at Epic Outdoors, we love the trophy. We love quality hunting opportunities, and we love to hunt older age

It's a large class game. Generally speaking, general season doesn't give you that. However, we always have everyone, whether you're in Oregon hunting blacktail or whatever, you have opportunities in your backyard that everyone, all of us, feel like we're not taking advantage of, and we could do better at. I'm not saying go hunt state to state, generals. Never would advocate that. Somebody in Idaho has a phenomenal general season that I wouldn't, because I don't have the insider knowledge. We've not done the years of intel and trial and error and all that. But we all have something we could do better at. Some of these over-the-counter, we were talking to a guy today, some of these over-the-counter, say, archery, coos deer in Arizona. You can hunt the best units in the state over-the-counter, in the rut, with a bow every year. That's right. How awesome is that?

Takes you 13, 14 points to draw the late rifle hunt. The day after that hunt ends. The day after. That's right. You have a bow in your hands, put by a tag at Walmart, and go hunting. That's right. And so, in the day that that ends, all good things come to an end. Utah, giant bulls kind of came to an end. However, we have some dang nice bulls. It's nowhere near what it once was. Colorado deer will never be what it once was. 2003, 4, 5, and 6. It just won't. And so, everything good comes to an end. The day that those over-the-counter tags disappear, It's gonna be a sad day. And things disappear. Change happens. And so, anyway, that's all we're saying. There's opportunity for everybody, no matter what. Having said that, we're all about hunting awesome, you know, even some of these average units with awesome seasons, I guess. We, like you,

Ronson, killing that bull. I've killed bulls on average units. Let's call them average units. Really, they are. They're not the 16Bs, A's, 16B, you know, 15, 17, 12. I mean, none of those, you know, 34, 36, the Vias Caldera, Viva Dell, any of those. So, I mean, for all intents and purposes, let's call them average units with great season. That's right. What about, then, if we're not going to commit to that in blood on the air here? Well, I didn't say we weren't. We just kind of took me by surprise. I had to wrap my head around it. Well, I'm just saying, let's ramp it up. If we're not going to do that, let's talk about something. And you don't need to get a specific to tell me the unit in the tree you're going to be sitting under, Carter. But, what hunt or tag or species and state are you anticipating and seeking a tag for this year with the most anticipation? Well, I...

And I will answer that after you and John be thinking about that. So, I'm gonna hunt Colorado deer every year. I just don't know where this year. Yes. They give those turn-back tags and the opportunities to pick those up, generally mid-August, okay? And so, I've half-thought about, some of the best tags come available during the season. But you have to be in person. You have to live over there to get it. And so, I've half-thought about, there's a lot. What? I can't wait to hear this, because I'm gonna see if you actually drive to Colorado and sit. I'm going to Colorado and sit outside an office and refresh and refresh and refresh. Well, I'm just saying that's an option. Okay, there's option number one. Whatever comes available that's a special unit, boom, smash and grab and go.

Okay. The other thing is, I'm thinking there's weird units. I love Nevada for a number of reasons, but I like hunting these weird places in the muzzle or archery or whatever. And I think that wherever there's old animals, animals that are dying of old age, you could have a giant. That's the way I feel anymore. I mean, there were several giants. Several of the biggest bucks killed last year in the state of Nevada came from no-namer. Crap units. You would label them as crap. 250-slash-242-net. How about that? Is that a good one? That's a good one. Okay, and you look through the Nevada record book, you can, it's less than one hen in the last 20 years It's produced in net 230. Yes, that's right. And so, I just feel like there's so much opportunity. We're all overlooking.

There's units in New Mexico, deer units in New Mexico, and guys, you know, they like to throw a little trail cam pic at me, and of course, you know, play guess this unit, right? The guess this unit. Is this a shooter? Yeah, there's a shooter right under your nose. You know what I mean? And so, anyway, there's some great bucks not coming from Unit 2, not Unit 4, not Unit 5. You know, but some weird units. And so, anyway. Alright, well maybe another way to play this game. What, I didn't give you what you're looking for? Not really, no. I mean, you gave me some options. Antelope, Wyoming? Antelope, Colorado? What are you looking for? What would make you happy? Those are already on the record. Janice got 20 some points, and she's already teed me up like, hey, here's the deal. If I'm gonna get a tag, I need to start shooting some stuff.

Yes, well. So yeah, just maybe another thing. Where are you point heavy, and what do you, Where do you think you're going to try to... I mean, there's... because some of the states, you can anticipate what you're going to draw. Yeah. Wyoming's one of them. Colorado's one of them. You've mentioned them for the antelope, and we've teased you about, you know, a month from that. And yeah, it's basically just, it's time to pull the plug, quit building points for those. That's what you're going to do. I'm not sure yet, but you know what? February... Oh, he's vacillating. February 11th is the Arizona elk and antelope deadline. That's coming up on us. I'm definitely going to be applying for elk, and I'm going to probably do a late season down there. Wow. I'm gonna be honest with you. I've hunted archery unit one, I've hunted early rifle unit one.

Of course, we've spent some time with our friends and other places. First choice will be something special. Let's say 23 South, for example. Second choice be a late smash and grab unit. You know what I mean? Gotcha. All right. Still a tag, still a big bull that's broken. Just passed his G1 on one side, probably. That's right. Well... What about you, Bronson? I've got... Where are we going? Well, for a couple of years, probably the last two or three, as many of you probably know, I've been on the brink of drawing my desert sheep tag in Utah. And to some extent, I've let that hold me hostage a little bit, as it should, because that was gonna be, you know, the final ram that I was gonna hunt in North America. And not the final, final, but you know what I mean. Priority number one. You know what I mean. Finish my slam, finnaws, whatever. Not the final ram I hoped to ever hunt.

But I had to steer clear of things. That's a long season in Utah. It starts mid-September, and it goes through the first part of November. And just due to the fact that, you know, I'm also going to have clients I'm going to be guiding and knew that I was going to have a prolonged sheep season, I had to have the time I need to do that. Having said that, I'm one of those guys with, you know, 20-plus Arizona deer points. And I'm really scratching my head a little bit about how to best use those this year. Now, that's not been something I've been real aggressive about while I've... While I've... I've been somewhat aggressive, but not really. While I've had that sheep tag, I've just kind of, you know, applied for the best of the best. Strip or the late rut hunts only. And that's probably to the extent that I'm going to do, but I might leave the strip forever. I might leave it.

I might leave it. I might. I'm not in the true max point pool. So, I'm one of those guys that, yeah, while the hopes and dreams are great to draw that, I don't think it's a reality, and I'm ready to maybe do something about it. So, that's one of them. Late coos deer. No. Early coos deer. No. Middle coos deer. We're talking mule deer. I can hunt coos for the rest of my life after I burn these ones. That's my plan. I also am packing double-digit deer points in Colorado. I burned them last in about 2008 or 2009. And I told myself I would never get double digit points again. I think I drew with about nine or ten minutes. And you're one of those guys. And I'm one of them, but I've probably hunted over the last 10 or 12 years. I was thinking probably eight or nine of those years I've hunted Colorado on one means or another. Either it be modestly or cheap price landowner tags or turn back tags.

And I've not killed a lot of bucks, but I'm going to Colorado. I use Colorado as my November show up and hunt state without scouting. That's how I normally view Colorado. Having said that, the dates shift a little bit later this year for 2020. Yeah, they do. And I want to use my points this year because in 2021, they're going to shift even later, and I think point creep is going to be off the charts. That's, I agree 100 percent, and that's where I think a prime example of change. We're super excited about this change. It's definitely going to I'm going to finish off the quality that's left there in Colorado. It makes you wonder. I mean, the third and fourth season dates, I feel bad for the deer in some units. If it does snow, they're going to get crushed, and I want to be on the front end of deer getting crushed, not on the scraps.

I think part of that though, you know, with these late season dates, second season, I think if I'm going from memory in 2021, The hunt will end on November 7th, and those are going to be good dates. Yes, that's right. I think, and everybody's going to be concentrating on 3rd and 4th. 3rd and 4th, they go so late, the second season might crush a bunch of great bucks. So, those are things to look forward to with anticipation. So, anyway, those are a couple of hunts that I plan on. The unfortunate thing about those two is the deer in Colorado, I'm not going to find out until the first part of June. And the deer in Arizona, I'm not... If you drew a tag? Yeah, if I drew a tag. And my deer in Arizona, I'm not going to find out until the end of June, 1st of July. It's the last thing we find out. So, those are not two great things to base my whole fall around.

Because if I strike out on 50-50-year type units, and I'm planning around them, I could have a lighter year than I want. You're going to do an OTC archery deer in Oregon. No, I'm pretty sure I'm not gonna do that, but I'll be, you know, I'll be, you know, helping you pack out antelope, I guess. I don't know. John, so for this time of year, I get really ramped up in the emotional part of it, and every year I've got this hope that I'm gonna draw a sheep tag this year. So, those states that don't have a point system, I get really excited about, you know, and then every year my hopes and dreams are crushed. But, you know, for New Mexico... Wasn't it John that said that young, young people shouldn't be drawing sheep tags? What? I'm not so young anymore, so those sheep tags should be for me. I think that was on the record at one point, and John got some hate mail.

I think I was half joking. Now all of a sudden, John's is like, to hell with everybody else, I'm gonna draw the sheep tags. So, it's hopeful, especially New Mexico and Idaho. Those are big ones, and just, you know, hoping to get lucky one day. And Utah, I'm actually getting up there in points. Yeah, John, yeah, that was one thing I was going to stir the culmination. You have high teens, if I'm not mistaken, on elk and sheep in Utah. Utah, high teens. Come on. So, let's burn those things for you. Let's burn John's points right now on the podcast. How are we going to do it? I love spending people's money, and I love spending people's points, John. I'm just getting to where I can draw in a good elk tag in Colorado, too. So, let's do... I got an idea. Let's do an archery LaSalle elk. And then do a smash and grab in 60 on the other side of the board.

You're giving up about 14 points for that elk tag in Utah, John. More than you. That's about, I think, a five pointer. I think it'll be a good learning curve. But I think there's a novel idea sometime. We should have a podcast of everybody on the air, because we don't have everybody with us tonight. But if we had a podcast with everybody, everybody has to put one state and one species points in the pool. Okay. All right? In the hat. Okay. Everybody, one state, one species, in the hat. And I'll donate my... I'll be the first one to do it.

I'll donate my max points Montana moose to the pot. And there's a pot. There's so many people. And the office gets to decide where I apply. I don't care to apply me. Come on. Tell me where to apply. Oh, I love this. And everybody has to do that with the state and the species. Put it in there, and we burn your points for you. General Deere, one point, go ahead. I'll decide where you're going. Yes, do it. Why not? Everybody, do it. I'll sign up for it first. All right?

And maybe we'll actually take input from our listeners. Tell me where to apply. I'm not putting in for a cow tag, so don't send me those types of things for Montana. But that would be fun. Let's do it. It would be. Obviously, it wouldn't be John's sheep points in Utah, or elk points in Utah. But part of the buy-in is you promise to go with each other. So, if you're gonna help me spend my points, you're gonna go with me. So, if it's miserable, it's miserable for you. Yes, let's make some rules and let's do it. Maybe it's New Mexico, but it doesn't burn your points. Carter, I could just see Jason, yeah, burn my, you pick my New Mexico sheep units and I'm in. I could see, you can't do that. You got one in 1200 dogs. Go ahead, let's pick them for me. Have at it. All right, pick me on the water drones. Every unit's a trophy. Yeah, you send me the Arc Dome there for

We're deer in Nevada. We're gonna have a problem. Well, you get to pick the state. Archery on the Arc Dome, start hiking for 155 inches. You get to pick the state and species that goes in the hat, and I think that needs to be written in employment contracts at Epic Outdoors. That's, you got to do that once a year, and we have fun with it. And you do have to go be co-camp-glasser, camp, you know. Camp slash what, cook. For lack of a better word.

I think it'd be fun, and I'm putting my Montana moose points, max points, on the line for that. Come on, come on. Somebody tell me where to put it. If you live in Montana, and I promise if you give- And you have a giant bull in your backyard. And you think that you're never going to hunt that bull, and you just assume it died before it died. And it becomes a unit available to non-residents. And you don't want it to turn into wolf crap, you know, because that could happen.

You just see not see that happen. Give me a call. And Bronson will go. That's right. And we'll film it, and it'll be awesome. And we'll give you the tenderloins. Huh? Huh? Which are pretty big on a moose. That'll feed a family of four. As long as you pay for your own gas. That's right. Anyway, John, I think we should look at your Utah elk. Yeah. I know. I don't know. It's time, John. Let's look at that close. Utah elk have never been worse. Let's use them now.

We're going to use them on a LaSalle archery. Burn and turn, baby! Let's do this! Yeah, John, don't you want to move on to dare? I mean, geez. Maybe we can even get a point booster involved here for John. Cash archery. Bad consulting. Sorry, John. I'm sorry. Anyway, it'd be fun. Well, anyway, there's guys out there, too, that have a ton of points, don't know what to do with them. Hey, if you want to boost somebody here in the Epic Outdoors office, we might go and hunt. We'll come with you. Call us. You got a bunch of Wyoming elk points, you want to go hunt something, or Wyoming deer, or Wyoming antelope, or somewhere that we can average points, give us a hauler. We'll freaking go hunt with you. We'll have a good time, and maybe kill an absolute monster. If you got 10 Utah cow elk points and want to split them with Carter, he's in.

I'm your man. I have zero. That's right. We'll drop a couple of bombs on a couple of moms, you know what I'm saying? It'd be awesome. Huh? I guess. Anyway, I guess our point of all this is change creates opportunity, and you need lots of opportunities to kill big stuff. So, we're excited. Of course, there's not a lot that doesn't make us excited here in the office. We've got Wyatt. He's headed out on some kind of barber sheep hunt in Texas. He's super excited. Of course, everything's legal in Texas. You can saw the top off a van and do some night hunt predator control, and maybe we'll convince him to do that. Of course, he likes to go to bed early, so who knows, huh?

Of course, we can pick on Wyatt. He's not even here. John? At least he doesn't have a headset. Yeah, I'm headed out to Mexico. Yeah, a little Coos deer hunt. Yeah, John, first Coos deer hunt, right? Yeah, first Coos deer hunt. What I love about this hunt, Bronson? What? Earlier today, when we're eating lunch at the SHOT Show, we're like, hey, John, where are you going? He goes, I don't know. He has no idea. All he knows is he's getting in a truck and driving across the border. We asked him, Chihuahua? Sonora? He said, I don't know. I have no idea. Well, have you checked that truck for any random shells and little obscure crevices?

Yeah. I know that I'm going to be blindfolded. John, let me just... So, to get there. You are not? I'm going with a buddy, and it's... He won't tell you? It's ultra secret. Come on. Wow. I'm kidding. Okay, John, Chris, you need to get a lot of the information from John about the March magazine before John leaves. In case C doesn't come back. We need to know how to plug and play that thing. We need to... Chris... and Chris doesn't have one of these mics, but we do need Chris... Chris knows Spanish, and he needs to teach John a few key words like, take all my money, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to kill things on your property. Take the meat, I don't need it, you can have it, feed your family, leave me alone. I'm alone. I want to see my family. Sorry, I love Mexico. Do what you wish for me. I hate Trump.

These are keywords that Chris teaches you this stuff. John, make sure Chris teaches you this stuff. Go over that. Get Rosetta Stone and stuff involved if you need to over the next week. Get some things involved for John. We'll just call them safe words, because that's what they are. I'm not in favor of the wall. That's right. I hate the wall. Those are really critical components when you're going to Mexico, John.

That's right, John. Probably ought to not wear a red hat with white lettering on it. You know what I mean? Like a little heart and the word Trump. I'll leave that home. I heart Trump. That's just not going to cut it down there. You know what I'm saying? Make America great again, don't wear that one. Anyway, John, have a great time. You're going to have a blast. Yeah, it's going to be fun. Hunting the gray ghost of the south. Yeah, that's right. Super exciting. I'm excited for you, John. I think you'll have a great time. We have a lot of good friends in Mexico. Speaking of Mexico, we do have a Mexican Desert Sheep Hunt with one of the best down there. He smashed a couple of giants. Two, a high 70 and a 180. 179 and a 180 round. These are all, of course, free-range, you know, legitimate. We've been to this ranch ourselves. It's all legitimate. It's all free-range, very safe.

We realize it's not a hunt everybody can afford and whatnot, but got an opening for the end of March. Just came open. So, anyway, somebody's interested, pass the info on to them. Have them give us a call at Epic Outdoors, 435-263-0777. All right, with that, we do have a few openings for some exotics down there in Texas, as well as barberry sheep there in New Mexico. So, if you won't do it, you are looking for something, spring black bear, turkey, whatever. Mountain lion still, a lot of lion hunts open around the west. That's right. So, still plenty to hunt if you got some time and you're itching to get out of the house. John, are we supposed to give anybody else a plug?

Well, I've thought of a Valentine's tip that I could give our listeners. Come on. Is this radio safe? Is this podcast safe? All right. This is coming from a guy. I don't know where you're going. I did a drive-through smash and grab. You know what I'm saying? You know where I'm headed with this? John? Okay. Do we dare talk about it? What's the tip, John? What's the tip? Let's bring it up. Come on. Let's do it. So, we just came from Vegas. All right. Just tell us. What's the tip? When in Vegas, get married if you can. Huh? What is the tip, John? Let's get married. What's the tip? When it's your second marriage, and you've done it all before, you know, a drive-through Vegas wedding, you just can't beat it. It's awesome. I love the story, John. And the awesome thing is, is she's a great gal. It's not one of, it was not like one of these

one-night dealer McBobbers or nothing like that. So, anyway, I just want to throw that out there. What is the tip? I can't wait. Coming from... So, the tip. It's Valentine's Day. The perfect thing you can buy is a ticket to Hawaii in our hunt giveaway. I like where he's going with this. This is funny. This came from John's wife herself. Yes, it is. This hunt was born from our wives, largely John's wife, but we had a complaint. There's not enough hunts or things for the ladies. So, we did a Hawaiian hunt with an axis deer. Tell us about it, John. Yeah, so it's for two. So, you can take your wife, Take your girlfriend, go to Hawaii, spend a couple days on the beach, and spend a couple days hunting axis deer. Yeah, both of you get to shoot deer. We're actually throwing in $1,500 cash, so you can book your reservation, stay wherever you want on Maui. It's on the island of Maui, axis deer.

Bronson's done it. I've been there, done that. We did a family vacation, and everybody laughs at me because my kids were smashing stuff. And I was getting abused and things like that on social media as the family were seeing pictures. I'm like, ah, Becky, you can't leave the guns home. And hey, it was for the kids. I didn't even pull the trigger. It's not about- Some hunts aren't about you, Bronson. That's right. They weren't about me. It was for my kids. Family activities, memories. Somehow, I got abused for, you know, hijacking a family vacation with guns in Hawaii. This came from Jen herself, and it's awesome. So, anyway, we do- We are giving away a bunch of hunts here at Epic Outdoors. That's right. Go to epicoutdoors.com. Check them out.

You can enter by February 29th, and that is one of the hunts you can win, is an axis hunt for two in Hawaii with $1,500 cash for go-to-words accommodations, and you stay for the week out there. So, great tip, John. I love where you're going with that. Everybody is smart to throw a few in there and their wives. Valentine's tip from Casanova himself. All right, guys, that's about it. We're going to roll into this Flying J here in Mesquite. Eat a donut or something, get back on the road, and I don't know, chill out for another couple hours. How about that?