EP 143: Colorado Parks and Wildlife Regional Managers on Wolves

There could be some crushing impacts to a state like Colorado should wolves get a big hold in your state. Humanity has a role in our decision-making process. Anything to do with Western big game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody, Jason Carter here with the Epic Outdoors podcast, coming at you from southern Utah. I'd like to thank Under Armour for sponsoring these podcasts. Of course, they sponsor about everything we do here at Epic Outdoors. Thank you, UA. We want to give a shout out to the Western Hunting Conservation Expo. It's going to be taking place here coming up February 13th to the 16th. Check us out. We'll have an Epic Outdoors booth there. We'll be there the whole time. Great place to either come join our membership, renew your membership, buy some entries to our membership drive hunts that we're giving away. Really looking forward to that. It's an awesome show. We love going to that. And on the Saturday, on February 15th, is also a great event that we help sponsor.

And that is the Full Curl Society Social, where they'll be making sheep hunting dreams come true. Giving away a bunch of sheep hunts there. We always have our name in the hat there. It's always fun to see those that are lucky enough to win. Doll, Stone, Desert, or Rocky Mountain sheep hunts there. Again, that's February 15th on the Saturday during the Western Hunting Conservation Expo. And we'll see you there. And Bronson, they're giving away not only these sheep hunts, but the $5 ticket items as far as, you know, getting tags across the state of Utah. And all the different species. So, what a great opportunity. Looking forward to seeing you all there. Come on out. Today, we've got a couple of great guests. We're super excited about this podcast. We've got J.T. Romatsky, the regional manager there in the northwest part of the state of Colorado with Colorado Parks and Wildlife.

As well as Corey Chick, southwest regional manager of Colorado Parks and Wildlife. How are you guys doing? How are you doing? Good. Appreciate it. Good, good. Did I pronounce your names right? Yeah, J.T. Romatsky. Romatsky. Right on. Well, I sure appreciate you guys taking time out of your schedule. It's a crazy time of year, I know, with, you know, different things that you guys are dealing with. Of course, you got the application season coming up pretty quick here. So, of course, us as hunters are all excited about that. Yeah, so are we. It's a good time of year to start to talk about what we have to offer here, which is second to none. So, yeah, it's a big time of year with applications. Oh, yeah, you betcha. So, well, we wanted to talk about, there's just, you know, wolves. And kind of a, you know, it's a controversial subject out there.

There's some people out there that, of course, want them officially reintroduced or whatnot. And then there's, you know, a lot of hunters out there that are concerned about them because they're, you know, let's face it, they're fairly hard on wildlife and they're quite the predator. And so, anyway, just wanted to basically talk about what the situation is with wolves in the state of Colorado and where things are at. There's just a lot of talk and whatnot. And I just kind of wanted to get it from you guys on where things are at. Sure. You know, I guess you look at it as a whole. I mean, currently their status is listed as protected by the Fish and Wildlife Service. They maintain the management authority as it relates to wolves. Okay. I mean, you talked a little bit, you know, how it can impact, you know, herds. And that varies from, you know, from place to place. I mean, it's out there.

It's hard to exactly justify not knowing what they would look like on this scape or on this landscape, what quantities we're talking about, any of that. You know, they're here in the state right now. They've wandered into the state, you know, over the past quite a few years. So we've seen them. We've seen, you know, some impact, minimal impact to this point. But, again, you know, that management is still relying to the Fish and Wildlife Service. It's the old adage that, you know, time will tell a lot for where we're going and what that's going to look like here, most likely, and in the pretty near future. Well, part of the reason, you know, I think there's been minimal impact is there's just been minimal numbers of wolves up to this point.

And so maybe, you know what I mean, and so it's hard to really, you know, there has been minimal impact, but there's also, you know, not a lot of wolves in Colorado, I guess, is what I'm trying to get to. Sure. No, you make a good point. So give us, and Adam Bronson is here. He's joined here on the podcast with us, and so you'll be hearing from him a little bit too. But just kind of give us on where we're at as far as, let's call it the State of the Union. I mean, where are we at on things? How, I mean, there was even up, you know, as recent as Friday, sounds like there was a bill being championed as far as the reintroduction. So can you just give us an update on where we're at to this point? Yeah, I'll take this. That's J.T. Romatsky, Northwest Regional Manager, and so I'll back up a little bit for you.

Starting in 2004, our agency, Division of Wildlife at the time, established a wolf working group, and it was made up of agriculture, commissioner staff, even some of the wolf advocacy groups and other folks. They worked for about a year and a half and developed what is now referred to as the Colorado Wolf Management Plan, and that was set forth after that. That came right after that. On the heels of that came our commission with a resolution about wolves into the state of Colorado, which was essentially, listen, you know, we recognize what's going on in neighboring states, but we're not in favor of reintroduction. Rather, we'd like to see them be able to come into the state naturally on their own accord. And then moving forward in 2016, there was a significant push to extend the range of the Mexican wolves from I-40 up into the southern part of Colorado.

And then Governor Hickenlooper and our commissioner in 2016 reaffirmed that resolution. In the meantime, since about 2004 or 2005, we've had, you know, probably five or six different sightings or wolves in and around the state. And so we've seen them come into the state naturally to some point. This last year in July, we had an individual male show up in Jackson County up in North Park. That animal's still here in the state. That came from the Snake River pack up in Wyoming. And then here recently, one of the big kind of, I guess, news things that everybody's talking about is this, this pack of wolves in northwest Colorado in my neck of the woods. That started in October with a group of elk hunters up in that country. And they posted some online stuff just about how great their hunt was. And, oh, by the way, we saw these wolves. We heard howls. And we got a video of a couple of them.

And then back in January, we came across with an outfitter brought to our attention an elk carcass. That kind of moved forward to us investigating that and looking at the carcass, the way it was preyed upon, the tracks, multiple animals scat in the area. We came out after some media inquiries and said, yeah, you know, it's likely it looks like we've got a pack of wolves, at least six animals up there in northwest Colorado. But a week ago or so, we had another carcass, a beef cow carcass that had been scavenged and preyed on. And so we had officers up there that also actually got eyes on the animals and, again, kind of confirmed what we had been saying, which is we've got, you know, at least right now six individuals out there. So that's kind of the on the ground history of where things are at here in Colorado.

There's a lot of other things happening from ballots to proposed and debated legislation that may or may not be introduced. Our agency does not have a position on any of those things. We're not supporting or opposed or neutral or anything else. You know, our our main goal right now is to try and be transparent, have conversations, maintain our credibility and be the agency that for 123 years now has been the leader of wildlife management in the state of Colorado. And and whatever the outcome on some of those other landscapes, politically or socially, otherwise, we're we're going to be the ones intact and doing a spectacular job to the best of our abilities to manage diverse and robust wildlife populations. So, yeah, this is Adam. That that statement from you guys, the Colorado Parks and Wildlife, I understand you guys are in a hard position because it's a federally protected species.

You guys are a state agency. You've alluded to some of what your commissions, you know, in the past, I guess, 15, 20 years. I don't remember exactly in that timeline what they've some of their resolutions have been. And again, there's different members on those commissions now, as well as different governors now that, you know, they've reinforced some of those positions in the past. But what what's the what's the flavor, I guess, of, you know, outside of your agency between, I guess, we're talking about governor's office and or commission. And have they came out and made any position statements again with this reintroduction talk being a little bit more discussed on the front burner? No, again, just to reiterate, I mean, we're we're we don't have positions on those things. Neither does our governor. I mean, we work for the governor.

We work for the citizens of the state of Colorado from ballots and other things. Those are processes that any individual or group or entity has the has the right afforded to them to move through those those political and legal processes. And and so as of right now, I mean, that's that's our position. That's where things are at. You know, and we're we're trying to just be kind of a counterpoint to the polarization and different sides of these debates. And and we're trying to be the ones that are the wildlife experts and managers. And, you know, that's that's our goal here. So as the wildlife experts, are you guys at all looking at maybe what these other states have endured as far as predation and and populations of elk? Let's let's just talk frankly with elk. They they prey on elk heavy, of course, deer and moose and things like that.

But I mean, if you've looked at some of these other studies in and as the Colorado Parks and Wildlife, is your agency bringing that to light to the commission? Hey, it's fine if you want to bring wolves. No problem. We're not for or against. But by the way, here's the pros and cons. You are looking at this kind of predation. You're looking at these kind of potential positives. You know, maybe at some point there's seasons like there are in Wyoming and Idaho and different things like that. So, I mean, do you present is there those sides being presented as well? Or is it or do you feel like this is a political fight, meaning there's just people that are for and against it, period? And maybe not necessarily paying attention to, you know, to the potential impacts, positive and negative. Yeah, that's that's a great question.

And, you know, and I guess to answer that, I would say there are both sides of these conversations and these conversations are going on all the time. And one of the things that you continually hear about is that, you know, wolves would be hugely beneficial to manage our overabundance of elk. And, you know, Corey Chick, the Southwest regional manager, is here and he can talk more specifically about some of our declining elk herds in the Southwest part of the state. You know, and around the state, we have most of our elk herds are stable, kind of where we where we're wanting to manage them. We really only have one up by the bear ears and some of that country or pronounced steamboat that is doing exceptionally well. And so, you know, to talk about adding another predator to the landscape and using that to benefit the management of our elk.

I think those those are things that we're trying to at least have conversations about. You know, we're we're in the business of conservation. It's the wise use of our natural resources. We're not in the business of preservation and, you know, no human impacts or anything else. I mean, you know, our only management tool is hunting. It always has been. That's the tradition and heritage of who we are and and what we stand for. At the same time, we do an incredible amount of work on the backs of hunters and fishermen who fund our agency to manage conservation species, to do reintroduction work, to do other things. The Canadian lynx is a good example of something that, you know, we've reintroduced that animal and that species is doing really well here in the state of Colorado. We're looking at at other potential opportunities like wolverine.

And as you do some of those things that aren't necessarily the hook and bullet hunted species, the thing that is commonly lost, I think, in the general public is that those things are funded by sportsmen and women who who pay the pay the bill in the North American model of wildlife management. And so we're all about robust, diverse ecosystems and balancing those things. And whether you have wolves or wolverines or anything else, you know, those are those are aspects to which we can manage and we can we can deal with that. But there are other consequences to any of these things. There's a lot of unknowns right now from chronic wasting disease to to a very robust mountain lion and black bear populations. And so adding another unknown on top of that is part of the risk of what we do on a daily basis.

I mean, I tell everybody that, you know, the science is great and science and research informs the management of wildlife. And you can have all of that. But at the end of the day, managing wildlife is an art. And it has to do with social tolerances, political tolerances and obviously biological or caring capacities. And our job is to artfully and craftfully manage wildlife to be sustainable in the state of Colorado. And, you know, that's that's kind of the ultimate goal of what we're trying to accomplish. Well, I don't mean to cut you off, but you're exactly right. Wildlife management, if it was left up to you to to just manage them for sustainable populations, use by hunters, all that, it would be one thing. But you've you've got a lot to balance. You've got private landowners that, you know, have depredation of different things for elk and on their property.

You've got programs in place to address that. You've got other things, other things in place for some of the larger predators. But the bigger thing, and I was a former biologist here in the state of Utah and like it or not, funding is a big factor. And you guys are the largest elk herd in the western states. And I don't have that number in front of me of what what the number of dollars generated from licensed sales for elk in Colorado. But if we just as a red flag, if you look at states like Idaho and what happened to them and what they had to do to just start to slow the try to try to write the ship after nonresidents just fled their state after the decimation of elk.

So there could be some long range, I guess, crushing impacts to a state like Colorado, as far as I'm concerned, should wolves get a big a big hold in your state and be a lot, you know, and then you're then you're handcuffed until they get to a certain level of quote recovery, wherever that is. And then you're dealt with another five, 10, 15 years beyond that, you know, throughout any kind of a delisting process. And we see what's done. And anyway, so that art, you're right, but you're also then left with with the reality of you guys, the bread and butter is licensed sales, your your agency budget budgets are based on that. And if you take out the cash cow, if we'll just call elk licensed sales in Colorado, you're you're jeopardizing the farm. And I say you're I'm not pointing to you guys, but you know what I'm saying?

Colorado as a whole is, you know, if that one factor gets in play, you could be risk. In the farm, Colorado could risk the farm as an agency to not, you know, in five, 10, 15, 20 years, be able to come anywhere close to what you guys are probably generating revenue and licensed sales on elk. Sure. And you know what? You bring up some good points. And to be honest, you could take wolves completely out of this. We don't even, to be honest, talk about it. If you look at Colorado's population alone, we have six million people in the state right now. And in 25 years, it's looking to be closer to 10 million. So, yeah, any, any time things change would change. I mean, we're doing our best and we have, I mean, the best biologists, game wardens, park rangers in the world.

And, and just for us to manage currently where we're at today with, with knowing what population is going to do, you know, even tomorrow, you know, I mean, when you're looking at adding, you know, a hundred thousand people, whether they say it's a month or a year over the next, you know, 20 years, that alone is, is a huge impact in itself. Yeah. If you just didn't have wolves and added, you know, whatever you said, 4 million people in the next 10 years or 20, whatever that timeline you said, where are they going to live? How much winter range are they going to chew up to build houses and all that across the state? All of those things is enough to make your scratch your head. Like, wow, how are we going to make all this keep working the way it is working right now? Well, and I'm gathering from what you guys are saying is you're saying, I mean, just, I'm just reading into it.

So just tell me where I'm wrong. But basically, yeah, we're going to have, let's say we have wolves. Okay. But, you know, there's a hundred other things that we don't know that's coming at us in the next 25 years. And so if it's wolves, okay. If it's people, it's okay. I mean, whatever. The thing, the landscape is changing all the time. Management is going to be changing all the time. Dealing with political pressures, with other things encroaching on wildlife populations. And so if I'm reading it right, it's, you guys are open to anything. It sounds, it could be wolves. It could be people. It could be whatever. It could be CWD. We're just going to roll with it. And we've got the best biologists in the world. And we're going to do the best we can with what we're dealt. That's just what I'm feeling. Yeah. No, I think it's kind of a, kind of an ugly feeling, isn't it?

I mean, that's what, that's what we're faced with. That's, that's the reality of challenges that we have and going back to the earlier statements about the differences between preservation and conservation. Conservation is the wise use of our natural resources. And it's not that we get to dictate and mandate humanity's use on our, on our planet. Right. I mean, mankind, humanity has a role in, in, in our decision-making process and we need to be considerate of that. And, and whether you go into a town like Craig or Stimbo Springs, there's two different social needs there. There's, there's different conversations. There's just completely different. And, you know, so our, our agency tries to be able to pivot on those conversations, those, those social needs and those kinds of things. If you look at the, the Eagle Vale Valley over the last few years, you guys maybe have picked

up on some of that too. I mean, you know, there's an example of, you know, interstate highway fencing, large amounts of predation, an incredible amount of outdoor recreation on the landscape. We've got so many things, such a dilemma with elk herds up there that we've literally gotten to the point within four years of going from 2,300 cow elk licenses to zero. I'm no longer even managing in E16, our DAU up there, you know, and so that's, that's without any other different discussions or debates about new species or losing species or anything else. And, and that's just, that's the conundrum that we face in this, in this country. And I got to tell you, like sportsmen and women are, are an interesting bunch, right? I mean, I can hold public meetings and maybe get, if I'm lucky, five to 10 people on some of these important issues.

And the second I say, I'm no, you can't get an over the counter elk tag in Colorado. Oh, you're going to be inundated. I could, I could fill stadiums. And that's what I'm, that's what I'm, I guess that's what our point is, is with these cow elk tags, you're talking about there's certain places you went from X amount to nothing. And we don't even have the wolves really having a foothold yet. Imagine what it'll be when they do get a foothold. And I guess that would be my concern if I was in your shoes or maybe just Colorado parks and wildlife, not you specifically is, Hey, when they do get a foothold, they're going to eat some things and they're going to eat a lot of them. And then we're going to have, we are, we're, we're kind of speeding up the process of having to deal with struggling populations, whether it be 25 years of, of human growth and interaction

versus wolf reintroduction and a steady foothold. And so I would think that would be a natural position of Colorado parks and wildlife. I understand. It sounds like it's not is, Hey, commission, consider a couple of things. We're looking at less, less elk. We're looking at a lot of less elk and we're looking at a smaller budget to work with, but it sounds like they're, they're okay with that. Cause they're not sure what the impacts are going to be and be what it may, whatever turns out, turns out. Yeah, that, you know, I'll, I'll take a stab at, at that. You know, I mean, I would say that I think our commission is, is very engaged in all of these conversations, the department of natural resources, obviously our governor, the governor's office, legislators, people care an awful lot about wildlife in the state of Colorado. And that's, that's always been a really good thing.

And, you know, whether we just did our last commission meeting, you know, I heard the numbers about 1% of the number of elk license equates to about a million dollars. I mean, there, there is a major revenue consequence to some of these things. And we're right now faced, I think not just Colorado, but nationally, most game and fish type agencies that are doing conservation work are facing reductions in overall numbers of hunters and people getting out there. We're also looking at decreases in revenue. And, and we can't forget the fact that for the last hundred years, you know, the North American model has carried us through to where those hunting and fishing revenue dollars actually fund all of these things from endangered species to everything else. And so how do we start to come up with that?

How do we change social dynamics and get people to buy into the fact that it is about management? You can't just preserve things and not, not be a part of it as humans. Gotcha. Well, I know you guys' time is not, you don't got a lot of it today. So maybe just in the interest of maybe a summary wrap up, can you explain the general process for what the petitioning that's going on now is doing and, and how, and what the triggers are for them getting on the ballot or not, if they're met or not, and then how hunters, sportsmen or concerned individuals can put their, make their voices be heard on that. And is that open to everybody or does it have to be Colorado residents? Tell us about that. And then the timeline of some of those decisions that are going to be made in the next coming months. Yeah. Yeah. No, thanks. I appreciate that. That's a great segment to end on.

So, you know, the, the ballot petitioners were successful in getting over 200,000 signatures to adopt the ballot into this November's election processes. So that's already been secured. In the meantime, there has been discussions about legislation and other things. And so it's out there and will be voted on this November. In the meantime, you know, I tell folks that anybody can engage in these things. You know, I, I go back to the earlier conversation about the Mexican gray wolf, um, kind of discussions about moving things forward as we, as we went through some commission processes, other public open processes at the time. I want to say that we got close to 4,000 different letters and comments and emails and phone calls to our commission during, you know, those meetings at hand. The vast majority of those people were from outside of the state, if not outside of the country.

And so we have people from all over the world weighing in on wildlife matters right here in Colorado. Um, and again, you know, I already said that I'm lucky to get five or 10 people to a meeting unless I said, we're no longer going to hunt in Colorado, then I could fill stadiums. But the reality is, is people need to start being more participatory in these public processes and engage. And, and, and if you're pro wolf, if you're anti wolf, you know, those don't necessarily, doesn't necessarily matter to me, but your voice does. And, and whoever you are, you ought to, you ought to stand up and be able to participate in some of these kinds of meetings. How do they, how, how can they do that? Cause there a, is there a place we can go or how do we do it? And we're talking about to residents of Colorado at this point, right?

I mean, as far as this ballot initiative, I mean, we're talking about opening up to everybody should this pass, and then there's going to be a management plan in place. Of course, then the whole world can weigh in on it. But as far as, yeah, we're talking to residents of Colorado now by now in November. Is that right? No, and you're exactly right. And I mean, we're in a process now that it will, it'll hit the ballot in November that will be voted upon. And really that guides the direction that our, our state will take it in the future. And I'm sure surrounding states may want to, at some point, weigh in on, on that. But, but as it relates to, to more going to your specific question on our public, our Colorado public being involved, you know, that all, that's all dependent, really dependent on what comes out of that ballot process, whether it passes or not.

Is that, just by way of clarification, I know in Utah, we have state laws in place for ballot initiatives, specifically regarding wildlife and others through Proposition 5, that our measures have to pass by two-thirds majority, which is, I know, very unique. Is this what we're talking about here in Colorado going to be a simple, simple majority vote? 50, 51% or? I mean, is that what it takes to pass it? Just a 51, right? Yeah, that's, that's correct. Okay. And basically for those that haven't heard, what's the gist of the ballot? Just very simple terms. What's the gist of it? The gist of it is whether, whether the, if, if passed, that will drive the commission to, to start having those conversations based on a, on a certain timeframe that, that we will build that management plan and then determine when, where, and how, you know, wolves would be reintroduced.

Of course, if it fails, it's the exact opposite that I'm sure we'll continue to have discussions, but it just drives a different process after that. Is there also, did you, possibility of legislation where it bypasses some of this and it's possible that it just goes, goes through in legislation? Was there something I was hearing about that a little bit? Yeah, you know, that's, I don't know that we can answer that directly today. You know, our legislators obviously have some, some powers afforded to them on behalf of the people too, to be able to run legislation. And I think you would, you, you would almost necessarily have to get the balloters, the petitioners and those legislators together to come up with a solution that worked for everybody. At any point in time, legislation could be introduced, PAC or, or however that works.

But that's, that's, I think part of the, the conversation right now. Okay. So what are we looking for? What's the rough timeline? Um, where, where there will be some decisions, whether you guys will know how to move forward, sportsman will know what we're, we're, we're up against as well. Well, November is obviously the big one. We have legislative session going until about June or this year. Um, in the meantime, our commission is our policy and oversight committee over our, over our agency. And we hold just about monthly meetings with our commission around the state. Those are all found on our website. Um, you know, there's, there's, there's a, there's a lot of different ways that people can, can engage or have conversations or look for clarifications on some of these things. Um, and generally some of, some of that can be found on our website. Perfect.

Well, we sure appreciate you guys this time. We'd, maybe we'll get you on again when we talk about different things, maybe deer and elk and other things there in your, you're in, in your regions of the state, but we sure appreciate your time today. Thank you so much. Yeah. Likewise. Thank you guys. All right, guys. Have a great day. You too. All right. So anyway, we, uh, we really appreciate those guys for a minute. Right. And so what a, what a couple of great guys. Um, they are great guys. Having said that with Colorado Parks and Wildlife now, not just wildlife, Colorado Department of Fish and Game. It's actually Parks and Wildlife. They take on a bigger role. Let's last few years when they did that rename and brought everything into the fold. So to speak. But they've got some, uh, they've got some big things coming at them.

The bottom line, uh, Colorado, Colorado is going to have some change. It looks like, um, there, I don't want to be, I don't want to be, I don't want to be pessimistic, but I, uh, yeah.

51 percent. 50. One more vote in favor than not. And they get wolves. And they get them. They get wolves. They're going to get wolves. It feels like. And so the one thing that you, you all can do out there is, uh, you can go and email the world and you might need to, um, from what our understanding is not from these guys, just our general understanding is that there's possibly a bill being introduced into the legislature. They're in session. They're going to be in session till June. And, and it could possibly bypass this whole process and basically introduce wolves. Well, and there, and it could be a bill that is set to introduce them, but you never know what the language of that might look like. It might be a bill that, that the state legislature enacts and then mandates the Colorado Park Small Life to, you know, investigate, come up with a plan, explore all that. Um, I, I.

Um, but it could go the other way and it mandates it's just as strong as a ballot initiative does too. I just don't, I don't, you don't know what one you would wish for, I guess. Do you want legislation? You want a ballot initiative. I don't know. It depends on how it's written. Well, I would take a ballot initiative personally, but, but whatever, not sure. Uh, our, you know, there's rumors that, uh, as, as recent as Friday, uh, one of the senators there championed a bill to reintroduce gray wolves. And so anyway, that may happen, uh, by the end here in June of the legislative session. And so anyway, go anybody that wants to voice their opinion, uh, go to leg.colorado.gov backslash legislators and send massive amounts of emails. They're all on there. We can't give every state representative and anyway, and kind of where we're going with all this is, um, you got to get aggressive.

We're hearing that there are two to three people. Showing up. Showing up. Some of these meetings and especially that was Denver. We heard it was overwhelming as you can imagine the, I don't know how many million people live around Denver, but you know, the HSUS and you know, all the wolf lovers were going to be out in full force at that meeting. I don't know. That'd be as dominant in, um, some Western Colorado, but the laws are made. Yeah. Yeah. All that. It's the masses, the past stuff. And that's what I'm worried about. And so anyway, they're saying nobody showed out, showed up in favor of the sportsman side of things, which is very little worried about deer elk moose and things like that. And so anyway, and all the quote, uh, you know, wolf lovers and people like this, they were there in force, like crazy crushing the place.

And so anyway, anybody there, uh, any other commission meetings that come up there, this is going to be a subject from what our understanding, it'll be a subject of nearly every commission meeting, show up at your commission meeting. That's, I mean, just, you got to do it in force. I don't know how we get the word out. I don't know how we get the word out other than we're doing this podcast. And, um, you know, we're trying to, trying to do our best to let everybody know what's coming at them. So the one thing you can do too, is drop an email, um, to the commission, the Game and Fish Commission. And, and we got on the website, the main commission email, DNR underscore CPW commission at state. dot co dot us DNR underscore CPW commission. C O M M I S S I O N at state. Dot co dot us. The least you could do is drop up is drop some emails. That's the least you could do. It may be too late guys.

Not sure. Things don't look good. Sportsmen and ranchers and agricultural interest. Everybody needs to come out in full force this fall. We are, I feel for you guys. I do, I don't mean to laugh because I feel, I don't want to be a pessimist either, but I'm feeling scared for, and I'm not a resident of Colorado. We'd love to go there and hunt and whether it's elk deer, whatever else. And it's a game rich state. And, uh, these wolves are going to be in trouble really fast. I mean, livestock rich and game rich. It's going to be a field day. It's a game changer over there. This is a game changer. And, uh, you know, I guess we're just nervous about it. We love Colorado. Having said that we are non-residents, somewhat guests to the state of Colorado. I've showed up at their commission meetings in person and basically laughed out of the room.

And so it's been, it's been tough to really be engaged in, in the state of Colorado. We're heavily engaged here in Utah. No problem. Happy to voice our opinion. This is our home state. Um, but we're guests over there. However, they, they fund their department with our money. And so, you know, I think we were owed, you know, to be able to voice our opinion. However, not always, not always open to a non-resident opinion. But anyway, anybody that's listening, throw out emails. Can't hurt emails in droves, emails in droves. And then anybody that's over there show up at the commission meeting. Um, they're, they're, uh, the naturalists or, um, what have you, wolf lovers, things like that. I don't know what we call them are, are, uh, inundating the meetings and we're not, that's, that's the, that's the end of the, at the end of the day, that's what's happening. Am I wrong? That's right. Yep.

How do we end on an up note somehow? What do we, can we, I want to, this podcast is all about wolves and it feels like, let's just say it happens. It feels like I'm ready to go grab our gun and start storming to Idaho tonight and just try to kill, kill one. I mean, and we could, and we've got a day on the calendar for that. Okay. But besides that, besides that, let's say they're re, they're reintroduced. I want to be, I want to kill one of the first ones. Huh? Like we did in Idaho. That'll be 20 to 25 years and a quarter million less elk. By then. By then. So, I mean, we'll, we'll be dead. I mean, before we're hunting them. There's a devastation. We won't be able to hunt them. But you and I aren't hunting them. We're in our mid forties. No. No. We can't think about them as a hunting opportunity. No.

That is so far, looking at the history in Montana, Wyoming, I mean, and, and Idaho of what that took to ever get there and how many times it went on and back off. To bring on lynx and bring on wolverines. Lynx are solitary. Wolverines are solitary animals. I know. I know. I mean, they don't bug me. They don't. They're not going to be population regulators. We're also hearing they were questioning the possibility of, you know, the ability to hunt black bears even. Like there's a lot on the docket coming down the pike. Yeah. They should be scared of that because if this happens, look at other states like, you know. California. That's right. Oregon. Whatever. The left coast. And you start taking tools out of a biologist and hunter's toolbox of, you know, hunting bears, hunting lions, using dogs to do that. They can't even do that with bears right now.

You take that out from, out of the toolbox for hunting lions. You add wolves and eliminate the ability to hunt lions with dogs and no black bears, period.

It's over. The banning of foothold traps in Arizona. There's just a lot of things that we're up against as sportsmen. Yeah, it is. It's never, it's never stopped. There's, stuff's always evolving. Right when you think things are on, on plane, they're not. It goes back, we did a podcast a few weeks ago, a month ago, what it was about. Nothing ever stays the same. Stuff changes. And when something's in front of you, when something's good, take advantage of it. Try to take advantage of it and do it. We talk about archery, archery deer on the Kaibab. If I was to tell you right now, you could go buy an over-the-counter tag to hunt 13A. Arizona Strip over the counter. Right now with the deer tag. How many people today would go do that compared to how many meager licenses they sold? There wouldn't be a fawn left. I mean. A button buck. It would be unbelievable how much bowhunting pressure.

It would make the Utah General look like a limited entry controlled setting. Okay. Okay. All right. But it went away. It was. And even you and I didn't take advantage of it like we should have. Late 80s. Late 80s. We went out there. Even late 80s. Even mid 80s. They were hunting over the counter out there on the street. Till 2007? In 13A. Archery. In 13A. That's right. Yes. But I'm talking even rifle and stuff like that. But I mean. Yes. But even. But archery till 2007 at least. And a year or two after that. Because 2007 for sure. Don't ask us how. But we know that year perfectly. Yes. That was an over-the-counter year. That's for sure. We'd have to go back and look. And like I say. We shoot. How many years after that? But. But our point is. Is stuff goes away. And there's not Arizona Strip 13A archery tags out there right now. Or a place like that. That's over-the-counter hunted.

That's like that. But there's general season in places. There's Idaho. There's Colorado. Which we're talking about. I'm telling you. If stuff like this happens. Stuff will go away. It will go away. And nothing stays the same. Whether it be predators imbalance. Whether it be people crushing your winter range. And destroying. You know. No more deer. It can't sustain any deer. I mean. Look at places like 44, Jason. I know. I know. I mean. Just. I know. The partitioned up little places. These bigger deer herds can even winter in that place. Which is. Well the winter range is still high country in most states. Yeah. That's what. They're fortunate to be. Yeah. These states are just. Because the low stuff is gobbled up. Golf courses. I know. I know. I know. Ranchettes. Cabins. I know. And even. And even the lowest elevations are still high elevation compared to Nevada or some parts of Utah.

A thousand feet. Oh yeah. Winter range. Yeah. Down. Down in town. So. Anyway. Lots of crazy stuff. I don't know. We're a little bit of a loss. We probably should have recorded this. You know. A day after we had talked to the. To these guys. They're. The regional managers there. Colorado Parks and Wildlife. Again. Super good guys. We appreciate their time. They're. You know.

Probably being somewhat politically correct. I'm. I'm just going out on a limb. But having said that. You know. That's. That states up against some challenges. Especially from a hunting side of things. Just feels like they're being. They're. They're overrun with.

Naturalists. And. I don't know. I guess. We're trying to be politically correct too. So. Maybe it's a good note to end on. Need to email the world. You can't send enough emails. Even if you copy. Paste. Copy. Paste. Copy. Paste. Take 30 minutes out of your time. Do it to the world. And then do it again and again. And have your families do it again and again. And. We got to get. Get it out there. That's the only prayer you have. Having said that. Feels like things are too far down the road. And. You know. And. And. With a lot of. Democrat. Senators. And whatnot. And things that are happening. And things that. The initiatives that they're wanting to. To push. Probably. Somewhat inevitable. Having said that. You got to do. What you got to do. And you got to do all you can. So. Got to go down and fight. That's right. So. All right guys. Well.

Having said that. It is the Wyoming. Application deadline here. On Friday. It'll be. They're. They're calling it. I looked on their website. It's. Straight up midnight. We call it 1159. Because midnight. You might be too late. But anyway. 31st. January 31st. For. For hunts. Not points. Reinforce. That's for the hunts. Not for points only. So let's. Let's. Let's. Explain. Explain. For guys that don't know. As far. Let's say I want to. Put in for points. But I don't want to put in for the hunt. What do I do? Go to sleep till July. No. Literally. Yeah. And even if you apply for your elk hunt right now. And are unsuccessful. You still have to go online in July in the summer. And get your point for that. So the only people that can't go get their points in the summer that should not. Are those people that are going to apply and draw their elk tags this year.

If you draw a tag you're not getting a point this summer. Otherwise you should get a point this summer. No matter if you apply it or not. That's right. That's the way it's going to go down. With the exception of sheep and moose. That's a mandatory $150 out of your refund. You will get a point if you're unsuccessful in drawing a tag there. But if you want a point and don't want to apply for it. And up front a couple grand. Then you probably do need to go this summer and get a point. So anyway we've covered that in the Epic Outdoors magazine. As well as we'll be covering the points only application period later. The summer edition. So anyway. If you want to get applied. Get applied. The other thing is Adam. A little bit of change there. Is you can plug and play on your application choices. You can change your application up a little bit. At least get in for something.

If you want to change something. And then clear through May. You can change your application choices. You can't change the fee type that you applied for. Special or regular. But you can change your application choices. Yeah. So if you're not positive. That you want to go out cutting in Wyoming this year. And you're worried about. Oh not finding out the end of February. Like we've been able to find out. Apply. Go ahead and apply. And you have up till May 8th. To withdraw. Or modify your unit. Perfect. That's another way of saying plug and play. Okay. So do that. So modify or withdraw your unit. Modify or withdraw. A.K.A. plug and play till May 8th. That's right. So anyway. Just get in so you have the option to change it up. Come Monday. There's no option. That's right. Come Saturday. There's no option. You are points only from Saturday on. That's all you can do.

But if you get a name on the hat. You can change your unit. Or withdraw it all together up until May 8th. And if you withdraw it. You can then go back in the summer. And do your points on the application. It's the only one that's due now. Here at the end of February you'll have the sheep, goat, moose, dew. And then bison in March. And so anyway. And then we'll of course. Arizona. Coming up. Deer and antelope. February 11th. Yeah. February 11th for Arizona. Elk and antelope. So anyway. We like talking about that stuff. That's fun to talk about. That's right. Not the doomsday there in Colorado. That's right. You know Colorado is such a bummer. Let's just open that conversation again real quick. CWD. They're issuing tons of deer tags. Bummer. Right. Less quality. Average age goes down. Everybody's disgusted. Haven't seen tougher years. Now we're going to be hunting.

Game and fish is like well people seem to like the rut. Let's give them deeper in the rut. 2021. We're going to crush what's left. Right in the middle of the rut. I mean right in the freaking middle. We're talking Thanksgiving four seasons Adam. Every day in November practically. You got second season going until November 7th. Third going until the I don't know 16th, 18th or whatever 20th. I don't know. Slight breeding break in between. Okay. Slight. And then back out. And then we're crushing them for the 24th to the 28th of November on the 4th. That's right. So anyway it's just. And it's. And. Get to Colorado. Just get to Colorado. Kill what's left. Get them before. Get them before. The hunters. The hunters. The hunters. Highways. Cars. Everything else. Everything else. Oh. Anyway. It's. It's. We're just so passionate about it. We've killed some great bucks over there. And.

And there's going to be great bucks every year. Every year. It is. It is. Genetics are awesome. A freaking deer. That's unbelievable. You just hate to see great things maybe on the brink of coming to an end. And. Quite frankly. Maybe they're not. But it just feels like with as many pressures that are coming down the pipe. You know. Four more million people in the next 20 years. You know. That's. They got to live somewhere. That's chewing up habitat. Winter. Winter. And all that. Where do those guys get that figure? I don't know. People aren't. People aren't that prolific. Are they? They're importing. Oh. Importing. You're right. They're not. They're not. With the legalization of marijuana. Oh yeah. The California exodus. That's. That's another. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. I think you're right. No. I'm 100%. That's not proliferation. It's not baby booming. Yeah. They're move-ins. Imports.

Retirees. Whatever it is. East coast. West coast. They're not. They're not. They're not born and bred Coloradoans that have the passion that you and I are talking about now about their own state. Because we know that pure Coloradoans. They do for the most part. That's why you live in the West. And you're brought up a certain way. You know what's valuable. The ranchers. Like they don't even know what's coming at them. And it's a little underhanded. It just feels like with senators introducing legislation and bills and things that you have to be in high circles and hang with prominent people to understand the process and to even have a chance at having an opinion. Yeah. And how the stroke of a few pins and you have the majority votes, whether it be legislature or ballot, 51. I'm not even saying 51%, 50.001% of the votes. And it can undo 200 years. Or 100 years, we'll call it.

But 200 years, 150 years of the management style that we've been able to get on board with. And man, it's hard to take that that can just unravel so fast. Even the elk herds over there are unbelievable. I'm looking through the population down. And we're talking tens and twenties of thousands of animals. Yeah. You know, in Nevada, what do you think they could do with that kind of numbers? I mean, it's unbelievable. Well, they could if they didn't have the wild horses. But that's another topic for another podcast. We should crush the wild horse. Yeah. We should. Well, then it's sad to watch them. I mean, horses are one thing. They'll stick on water. And when they were born and raised on a certain water, when that water dries up, they stand there and die. It's a sad thing. And there's a lot of that goes on. And I didn't know a lot of that until I went on some of these horse gathers.

But anyway, whole other subject, whatever. Maybe we'll. We don't want this podcast to be something that where we fix the world. Because honestly, we live in the world. We can't fix everything. Adapt. Adapt. Do it. You never know how polarized people are on certain subjects. I mean, there's a lot of. There's hunters out there that are listening to this going, bring on the wolves. I love them. And they are pretty darn cool. I'm not going to lie. They are pretty cool. So having said that, at what point, how cool are they? What are we giving up to have them? Yeah. And this is the 21st century. You're 6 million people now. We're pre-European settlement or at the time of European settlement. There were, let's just call it tens of thousands only. Now you've got 6 million people there with all their livestock and all these game populations. Highways. I mean, it's a different world.

You can't just say, let's get it back to the way it was. It's not the way it was. It's not possible. And Colorado, I will contend, is nowhere near. I'm not even going out on a limb. It's nowhere near the Yellowstone ecosystem or some of the Middle Fork salmon or Frank Church country of Idaho in terms of remoteness, left alone, pristine. Colorado is partitioned up. Yeah, you got that stuff. But there's people all throughout. All throughout these ranges we're talking, there's a valley and a mountain and people in between. Everywhere. Hiking the 14ers. Yeah. Ringing the bells everywhere. Ringing them, the 14ers. Yeah. Watching the sunrise here. Watching the sunrise there. I mean, just lots and lots of that going on. When you want to talk about something that can really change things, I mean. Bring in 100-pound four-legged cricketer that hunts in packs. That's right.

You're going to change some things. In a naive state when there's no deer, elk, moose, anything that's ever smelt. Imagine the first. Smelt a wolf or a wolf track. I mean. They're like, that's a dog. I run those down with my paws and I kill them. All the hikers that run them, I just trample those things. I trample those little dogs. Go try that on a wolf. Da-da-da. All right. Go try that. Try that. Get that. You're the next pile of hair.

It's true, dude. Right. You know what the sad part is? When we first went to Idaho and we talked about it on this last podcast we did with our wolf hunter. Yeah. They hunted for fun. The wolves hunted for fun. They would eat out the reproductive order. The udder. The udder. The udder with milk in it. Just for. Just like. It was unbelievable. Just some. And left them in the middle of the road. And then up on the hill they went. Go find another one. Lay around all night. And then to go find another one. Because the joy of killing it was the excitement there in the pack. And it's fun. Like. It's just like. Dogs and a chicken coop. You know. They don't. They couldn't eat one chicken. I'll have one chicken. Yeah. I'll have this chicken. Tomorrow night I'll go get another one. They'll kill 30 of them. Yeah. They kill them all. Come out. It's fun. It's fun. So anyway. You know.

That's what's going to happen. And. And. And hey. And we've done a lot here in Utah to.

Fight off the potential introduction. Official introduction of wolves. Of course we have a few here and there. You know. But anyway. Sounds like Colorado. Well down the road of having them. And so do everything you can. Of course we left it on the podcast. How to make your voice heard. Show up to the commission meetings if you can. I don't know what else to say. Bronson. Want to make it interesting. I think that's it. I kind of ruined my day. I think the biggest thing. We've ricocheted all over the place. This could be called the ricochet podcast. But it's. Let's do that. Ricochet. Ricochet. All right. But. Let's end on a good note. Chris. We got anything good to give away. Maybe that's a way to get a good taste in people's mouth. Give something away. Give something free. If you listen to the podcast. You endured the rambling. The ricocheting. To the end. Let's give away something.

Give away something good. All right. We're going to give away an Alpine Ops Parka. From Under Armour. And if. If you haven't heard about them. They are amazing. We've all used them here. Tell me. Tell me what you think of it. It's unbelievable. It's one of the best pieces of gear they've got. It's stuffable. They've got a little stuff sack. Built onto it. You can stuff it in this tiny little pack. Tiny little ball. Shove it in the bottom of your pack. And. Unbelievable. When you're sitting glass and it's just. It's unbelievable. Anyway. It's puffy. Puffy pillow. What do they got to do to enter Chris? To enter. Go to our Instagram page. Epic underscore hunts. And look for the post on this Colorado Wolf podcast. Within the comments of that post. You are going to do hashtag epic outdoors. And then just leave a comment about your thoughts on the Wolf situation in Colorado.

And you'll be entered to win that parka. We're going to draw for the winner on February 9th. So the deadline to apply is February 8th at midnight mountain standard time. So go there to apply to win this giveaway. Good luck. That's a downfield Alpine Ops parka from Under Armour. Give us your opinion on there. And you'll be entered to win. All right, everybody. We appreciate you listening to our podcast. We appreciate all the support. Of course, we're right in the middle of grinding. Give us a holler if you need help for applications.