EP 16: Big Bucks in Kansas with Stephen Spurlock

It's hard to dial in Kansas. It's just a never-ending learning process for sure. The application period is like April 1st to the 28th. Traditionally, age structure. Anything to do with Western big game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody, Jason Carter here with the Epic Outdoors podcast. Got a super good guest on today with us named Stephen Spurlock. He's a really good friend of mine. I've known him for quite a few years now. And anyway, just wanted to talk about Kansas and some of the country that he's spent a lot of time in. And he's hunted specific deer, both mule deer and whitetails. And it's fairly knowledgeable over there. In fact, quite knowledgeable. So anyway, before we get started, just wanted to thank Under Armour for their sponsorship, the Epic Outdoors podcast and all that they do for Epic Outdoors and some of the different ventures that we're in together. And of course, I've worked with them for a lot of years with Ridge Reaper TV show and different things. And so anyway, just wanted to shout out to them.

Appreciate them and their support. As we get started, just wanted to welcome Stephen. You out there? Yes, sir. I really appreciate you taking time out of your schedule to, you know, visit with me today and kind of cover some of this stuff that's, you know, of course, near and dear to your heart. And, you know, and just kind of take it from there and maybe just glean a little, a few little things from you. And I know you spent lots and lots of time over there in Kansas. Yes, sir. Well, thank you guys so much for having me on. Maybe give me, give us a little bit of your background and kind of how you got into hunting and, you know, start as far back as you want to go and then, you know, bring us up to where you're at today. Yes, sir. Well, I grew up in Northern Virginia. This was home for me right outside D.C.

And at an early age, you know, we have a lot of deer in Virginia, but quality isn't great. So when I was in high school, I actually started traveling to the Midwest and working on farms out there solely because I just wanted to be around big, big whitetails. Did that through high school, ended up pursuing a degree in wildlife management at University of Georgia. Finished that up in 2010. And since then, I've just been heading, you know, started going to Kansas and spent a lot of time there. Started spending a little time. And over the years, it's gotten to be a little bit more and more and more. But just always had that interest in whitetails. You know, grew up around them and just been an animal that, you know, I can't, I like hunting a lot of different things, but they're, you know, they're something about them.

Yeah, there's absolutely, there's most guys that hunt whitetails real serious are just super addicted to them, you know. And so I can only handle so many addictions. So I've tried not to let myself get too involved with them. But, you know, to kill a giant, which is kind of the natural thing that I'm going to want to do. I know it takes tons of time and tons of effort. And you almost got to stop mule deer hunting or stop elk hunting and actually make it, you know, kind of your priority, wouldn't you say? Oh, absolutely. You know, and that's, as you know, I kind of have a growing interest in elk hunting. And, you know, it gets in the way of the whitetails a little bit. You know, it's hard to be, it's hard to really focus on two species in one year. You know, it's regionally, they're distributed out, you know, distributions far enough that it's hard to keep track of everything at one time.

And whitetails are one of those animals if you're really looking for the upper end stuff. It takes a lot of time. I mean, tremendous amounts of time to find those, you know, older age class genetically kind of gifted animals. Yeah. So talk to us a little bit about what got you to this point. I know you brought us through some of your backstory, but just, you know, what drives you, what you're doing. Maybe some of the different, you know, your aspirations as far as leasing ground or what are you doing? What has it taken to, you know, to hunt big deer? For me, it's been a, oh, I've been at it for seven years or so. I've been carrying leases in Kansas. And, you know, I started into it. I just kind of picked an area and found an area I kind of liked on paper in western Kansas and leased a small place there.

And, you know, the way we do everything is I have a group of friends that we all hunt together. And, you know, we take our leases and split them and everybody has, comes out when they can and hunts. And, you know, from there, we started with a little ground and we, you know, gained a little bit, lost a little bit. You know, there's an ebb and flow year to year. But really just kind of isolated down the areas we like the best and the areas that seem to hold older bucks. You know, as far as hunting big bucks, it's all about hunting older bucks. And finding those areas where the deer can make it to five, six, seven, or even older, that's the real challenge in hunting big white tails. And so how are you finding these areas? It's like, I know traditionally, like 15, 16, you know, some of these other units are maybe what people are kind of honing in on.

But to me, I mean, we've seen, and you know this as well, you see giants from all units, you know, and maybe even not a rhyme or reason to some of it. But, like, how are you finding them? Is it specific leases? Are you looking for size of ground? Or is it, you know, just seeing what's come off a particular ranch? And so you know that ranch or piece of property has that kind of genetic? I mean, how are you doing it? Yes, sir. Well, you know, well, approaching Kansas in general, if you're just getting started there, you know, like we've talked about, there's really great bucks in almost every county in the state. But, you know, so part of it is a style of hunting, isolating down how you want to hunt a little bit. You know, the western part of the state where we're at is a little more glassing intensive.

You know, more river bottom whitetails in the eastern part of the state, which is, you know, I think more traditional whitetail country, woodlots, farmland, that sort of deal. And, you know, and kind of getting started, I just found an area that I liked in western Kansas there. And that's the big difference east to west is west you have that big prairie country where you can really use your glass. You know, I don't think it's that much, probably not that much different than some of the, you know, mule deer hunting you guys are accustomed to doing a little further west. But starting there, you know, and then from there, it just takes, you know, the area I hunt in up there is not necessarily known for the quality that's there. It's not a historic hot spot like you see in some other parts of the state, you know, Comanche and Barber counties and those areas that are so famous.

We just started with a little piece and got to know the area and, you know, kind of isolated down from there areas that were just holding those deer and continue to. And that's, you know, the biggest thing in our success is we hunt the same areas year to year. You know, having that local knowledge and knowing what bucks have made it through and what bucks didn't make it through. And, you know, going into the year knowing exactly what animal you're looking for, man, that helps a lot. It's a lot harder going into the season when you don't really know what bucks are around, really what buck you're looking for. Yeah. Well, that totally makes sense. You know, I've done several podcasts with, you know, some of the mule deer freaks here in the west. And, you know, one thing that we all kind of have in common is we're hunting the same areas from year to year, like you said.

So, you know, you're hunting the same areas. You're becoming extremely familiar and then following animals, specific animals. And so what you're telling me, I mean, even in the whitetail world and you're probably running cameras or whatever, but you're following specific animals, naming them and figuring it out that way as far as, you know, not just accidentally shooting 190 inch deer or something crazy is those deer maybe may be accidents during the rut or something like that. And you kind of wonder where they come from or maybe they're the neighbor's property you never knew about. Oh, yeah. Well, those oopses happen. You know, the ones that, you know, those monsters. I mean, it absolutely happens, Jason. But, you know, in general, most of the bucks we end up hunting are bucks that, you know, two or three years history with or, you know,

occasionally we'll have that deer from four to five that'll, you know, I'm sure you see it mule deer that'll just maybe wasn't on the radar as a three or four year old. And then all of a sudden, holy cow, you know, look what he blew into. That definitely happens, you know. But, yeah, the year to year following, you know, the year to year access is really the biggest. I mean, that's the biggest key to success, whether it's elk, mule deer, whatever it is, the more time you can spend in an area and the more you get to know individual animals, the better off you're going to be. So you're just picking like a specific ranch, say, or somehow you've got, you know, a contact or whatever, pick up a lease. And then maybe you just learn more about their neighbors or that particular lease or whatever.

And one thing leads to another in seven years down the road, you've got maybe hopefully a good ground, good ground that you're settling in on or. Absolutely. And that's kind of, you know, I think the difference between the eastern and western hunting model is, you know, back east here, I live in Georgia's home home for me now. Having a hunting lease is pretty standard. That's how most people have access to ground. And that's kind of, you know, we've kind of taken that mentality to Kansas where we become, you know, get one lease and get to know a landowner and develop those relationships. And over time, you take good care of your landowners, they take good care of you, and you get access on a little more ground here and there. And, you know, it just, every year builds on itself, even, you know, even after being there for almost a decade, you know, every year you learn a tremendous amount.

You know, it's just a never-ending learning process for sure. Wow. That's awesome, man. Well, so talk to me a little bit about the outfitter situation in Kansas. I know, you know, we obviously are looking into it, and I'm always trying to find, you know, good outfitters in Kansas, but it's extremely difficult. And maybe it's the licensing situation or lack thereof, or I don't know. What do you think about it? Well, you know, in Kansas, as you kind of alluded to there, it's my understanding there isn't really an outfitter licensing process. So guys who want to be outfitters, they end up, you know, throw up a webpage, and they're outfitters, you know, which is a little bit different than some western states.

So that being said, there's a little bit of, probably a little bit of a quality control issue there where guys that aren't really doing things the right way end up, you know, end up out in the world for people to book with. That being said, you know, there are some guys in Kansas that are extremely good operators, you know, that have a great, great, great situation going and run some great hunts. But finding those guys can be challenging. And, you know, I think that comes down to the lack of the licensing process. And then on the other side of things, anyone in the world can go to Kansas and lease a farm kind of like I do. So, you know, these better hunting leases are pretty darn competitive. You know, if you drive by a piece of property in Kansas and think, man, that looks great for whitetails, odds are decent that the hunting is controlled through some way or another on that property.

Yeah. And I think that's where, you know, outfitters struggle a little bit to keep hold of better leases. Yeah. Well, it's just been tough. So, you know, I know we've dealt with some different outfitters in the past. My dad even went out there. We were out there with a guy, ended up killing a 220-inch mule deer. It was the craziest thing. You know, in a Milo field, I mean, and we don't even know what Milo is, not even sure quite how to spell it here in the West. But you guys have loads of it, and they love it. I mean, their faces are black, and I mean, it's just, you know, they love it. But anyway, needless to say, I mean, what I'm getting at, that outfitters no longer in business. I don't know necessarily why, but it feels like, it feels like, I mean, like here in the West, here in Utah, we have Henry Mountains, Poncegont, Oak Creek, San Juan, whatever, let's just say, for deer units.

And those are, you know, going to be fairly good for a 10-year stretch, if not more, if not 20 years, you know. Well, we were in Unit 17, and it's not that 17's good. It's that that particular piece is good, or that particular deer's alive that got to be 6 or 7 years old. And it's not that 17's was awesome, although it's had some good deer in the past. It's just different. Absolutely. It's more based on ranches. It's more based on properties, and if people are poaching or just overhunting or whatever, there's tons of different, you know, aspects to growing big deer in Kansas versus out here. Well, and that's, you know, the interesting thing about Kansas is, you know, and really it's a private land, you know, it's a private land state.

What you end up with there are, you know, large ranches where they can really impact their deer population on their particular properties, whether that's nutritionally, age structure, they can control harvest. And some of these ranchers are really, really good at that, you know, and that's, you know, when you see a big deer come out of Kansas, you can pretty well just circle the whole state, and it could be anywhere in there, you know, versus you get on the western states. You know, you see a 250 buck come out of the state of Arizona, and your odds are pretty good he came off the strip. Right. Yeah. A little different in Kansas for sure. Yeah. Well, so let's talk about the mule deer a little bit. I know, you know, you haven't totally become a mule deer addict, you know, but we're working on you.

And I know you do, you know, you do hunt them fairly aggressively, and you're always, you know, looking for giants there in Kansas, and you're finding a few. So, I mean, tell me a little bit about that. Are you finding big white tails in the same places you're finding big mule deer? And at times, too, to add on to that question, at times, too, we're finding, you know, giant mule deer in places there's not many of them. And it seems like that with Kansas. When you find low densities, low populations of white tails, it seems like, maybe it's just me, but it seems like there's always a few just absolute monsters when there's, you know, you're hunting lower densities. And I don't know if there's a correlation or. Oh, that's, that's, I mean, I was hoping you'd bring that up, Jason.

And that's kind of, you know, in the western part of the state, well, first of all, Kansas kind of divides itself into two kind of mule deer management areas. There's the western zone, which is 1, 2, 17, 18, and the eastern zone, which gets into 3, 7, 4, 5, and 16. And here in the previous years, you know, last year they had a, the state implemented a tag reduction in the eastern, eastern mule deer range in Kansas, which, oh, I think they knocked it down from 500 to 400 tags a year. On the western part of the state, which is where a majority of the mule deer in the state are, densities are pretty darn good. You know, you can get into pockets where you see just a pile of deer. And that, that being said, you know, I stick mostly to the western zone of the state when I'm out there.

And, you know, you'll find those concentrations with just piles and piles of does and young bucks and so forth and so on and these ultra high density areas. Because generally speaking, finding the better bucks, it seems like I find those guys kind of off, not on their own, but in more pocketed areas than the, than the really popular, just, you know, 40, 50 mule deer in wheat field areas.

But that, you know, the, the mule deer population in the western part of the state has been, you know, I think stable to growing. At this point, it seems to be doing really well. And, you know, the main issue, you know, with that, with that area is, I think the same with the, a lot of the western units you guys hunt. It's just, it's all about age structure. And Kansas implements, you know, not very many non-resident tags. You know, the, the statistics on that, they're just, there's not a tremendous number. But when you look past that at the resident tag allocations, you know, for the rifle season in that western zone, they're issuing 1400 resident or 14, a little over 1400 resident tags a year. So, you know, getting older age class bucks is, you know, it's, it can be a challenge.

And I, and I think that's probably, we talk about focusing on those lower density areas and finding the bigger bucks in Kansas. Yeah. And I think that's largely due to the fact that just, you know, those deer kind of slip through the cracks. Not as many people look out in these areas where there aren't super high densities. And so what do you see? And I know like that units one and two and some of that country, like there's some remote country even. I mean, you do have some private ranches and whatnot, but like the sand hills and places like that, that would kind of interest me. They're intriguing. Oh, absolutely. You know, there's parts of unit one and unit two, especially that, you know, breaks country that is, man, it's hard. It's, yeah, you can't drive your pickup around it, you know, through it anyway, which is pretty unique for the state of Kansas.

You know, generally speaking, Kansas is pretty flat and pretty accessible. But there's some areas up there in those units that are definitely a little more remote. And then you get down into 17 and those units there and it gets a little, flattens out a little bit. Haven't, it's not quite as much rough country down there, but a lot of, a lot of pretty rough canyons up in unit one and unit two. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I've seen that like in 17, some of the problems, I mean, it seems like there's a public right away around every 640 or whatever. And so people know what you have and your guys know what they have on their properties. It's kind of, kind of an interesting dynamic. Yeah, no, that's for sure. The, the mile, the mile grid road system out there makes it pretty hard, especially on the, you know, white tails, I think are a little more astute at hiding than some of these big muleys.

The big muleys in open country, if he lives in a mile, you know, an area where there's a road every mile, it's pretty hard for him to hide from people. Yeah, you got this big rack hanging out above the milo. I mean, when we went in there, we went in there to kill this deer. I mean, it's pretty funny because, because he, you know, the outfitter was, you know, we know this big deer's here and this and that. And, and of course we're excited. We know what the deer is. We've got, you know, a little video clip. So, so anyway, we ended up bedding this deer out in this milo and of course they think they're hidden. They got this big rack hanging above the milo. And so we just take lawn chairs. The wind comes up, they can't hear you. You need them to stand up, but you don't want them to jump and, jump and blow. You want to be able to kill them when they get up. So you want them to get up naturally.

So you just take, and it's hot, you know, of course you're in September. Oh, September. Yeah. Oh yeah. September with a muzzleloader where they're patterned. You know, they've got a pattern. They're not rutting. There's nothing. They're pretty stable. They just get up, eat, drink and be merry, you know? So anyway, we're chilling in these lawn chairs. It's the craziest, you know, big mule deer story. But anyway, and just waiting for hours and hours and hours and hours for these deer to stand up. And so of course, luckily when they do stand, you're right on them, but they don't know you're there. Um, even though you're just chilling, you know, in lawn chairs, I don't know. I mean, it's a little different. Not every big deer is taken that way. I know that.

And of course, Adam Bronson here in the office, um, had a late tag and, uh, anyway, got lucky and ended up, uh, you know, killing just a stud deer as well. But it was cold. Like those December hunts can be so cold. Oh man, they can be brutal. And that's, you know, there's, uh, that's, you know, there's a big, big difference between the early season and late season stuff out there. Uh, you know, the deer totally shift their areas, you know, it's, and it's a lot crop rotation and things like that. They will, you know, head to different country and that wind blows and snows and yeah, it can be, be quite an adventure. Yeah. It's just crazy. So let's see, um, you know, is there any specific bucks that you remember? Or like anything, you know, are you following specific bucks right now? Are you into the whitetails or mule there? I mean, what have you got going right now? Yeah, sir.

Well, for, for 20, oh, 2017 this year, I should draw a whitetail tag, uh, in the area I hunt there. And, you know, and it's one of those years, I'm sure you've had them. I'm going into it. Not really a hundred percent on, on having a buck to hunt. Um, you know, we had a really good year last year and harvested some older age class bucks and, you know, kind of cleaned out the inventory a little bit. Um, so going into 2017, it's going to be a, yeah, it's going to be a lot of looking and, you know, I've got some, I've got some four-year-olds that I, you know, watched last year that I'm, I'm just really hoping, you know, really make a good charge here at five and a half. Yeah. Uh, but as far as having an individual buck, man, I'm, I'm sweating it a little bit because I do, you know, for, you know, it happens, but this is the first year in a while.

I'm not really sure which one I'm looking for. Yeah. Well, you probably, are you running trail cameras pretty aggressive? I mean, is that pretty popular there in Kansas? Absolutely. Well, you know, Kansas is a, is a baiting state, so you can run baited cameras during the deer season. Um, and you know, and, and that, and then Western part of the state water is very limiting. Uh, there's not a lot of live water out there. Um, so, you know, we run a lot of cameras on tanks and things like that. And, you know, between, between those two, and then running some cameras on scrapes and rubs and things like that, you can get a pretty good inventory of the bucks you have out there. Um, and that's something, you know, we typically start around October 1st and, you know, run cameras up through the end of season.

And, you know, somewhere in there, most of the bucks that we, uh, you know, we, we learn about most of the bucks we end up seeing through cameras for sure. Yeah. So you say October 1st, like we start around June 15th, you know, running cameras and stuff. Do you, are you running them in the summer? It seems like to me it'd be extremely hot. You just, you know, you indicated the water's extremely limited. They've got a water just like every animal does. I mean, do you, do you start early? Do you put, do you run on water pretty heavy? You know, since I'm, I'm, I'm regionally a little bit, uh, oh, I'm about 20 hours from the area. I hunt is home for me. Yeah. So in the summertime I get, I get some cameras out, Jason, but I don't get to run, uh, as many as I would like. And, you know, kind of my reasoning there, you know, I think it'd be super helpful, but in

the summertime, a lot of the bucks that I'm looking for may not summer in the areas. I'm actually going to end up hunting them. Um, you know, in the summertime crops are up, cornfields are up, milo is up. Um, and a lot of these deer will leave, you know, riparian river bottom areas and go out, uh, out into just some treeless middle of nowhere farmland and they'll live out there all summer. Um, so that being said, it's, you know, the bucks that we're going to hunt during the rut, man, they could be a quite a ways away, uh, during the summertime. Um, you know, they're, they're spread all over. Yeah. Well, I, I'm probably good. I don't live in Kansas cause it's so, so it'd be so addicting. I'd be running 500 cameras, 500 bait stations, all the water that's alive, you know, and, but that's kind of what it takes.

Like you're saying, there's just, you know, you really gotta be aggressive like you are. Even if you're 20 hours away, you're still, you know, you're picking the time of year that you want to hunt and you're, you're working it hard, you know, to come up with the deer you've come up with. I know you've come up with a lot of big deer, you know, and that's just a product of time there, Jason. You know, it's, I think the same for you guys out West, they're just spending a lot of time and, um, you know, getting a little bit lucky every now and then, you know? Um, but that's, you know, that's kind of the deal with Kansas is definitely great bucks there. Uh, just, man, oh man, you know, just like anything else takes quite a bit of time and a little bit, a little bit of luck. Yeah, exactly. So are you, so you're a non-resident to Kansas. That's right, isn't it? Yes. Yes, sir.

So we're limited to like hunting mule deer with a muzzleloader. That's correct. Yeah. There's, there's, well, the only way a non-resident can hunt a mule deer with a rifle in the state of Kansas is through their commissioners or governor's tag program. Yeah. Uh, through the standard draw, there's, there's no way to get a rifle, um, a rifle mule deer tag. Yeah. Yeah. I just find it so interesting that so discriminating. I don't know. It's just crazy. I mean, it's one thing to kind of limit our tags. It's another thing to be in the field side by side and, and be, you know, limited compared to a resident. You know, that's, uh, that's for sure. And, you know, and the thing with Kansas, you know, for a, for a resident of Kansas, the mule deer tags, if you want to hunt archery or muzzleloader, uh, I believe they're over the counter. Yeah. Yeah.

Um, you know, they, they have to draw the rifle tags, but other than that, um, they're the state's wide open for them. It's a good, good state to be a resident in. Yeah. I forgot. It's willing to work hard, you know, and, and make it happen. I know this year, like, like we've said, it's hard to dial in Kansas. Um, you know, I went out there through a good friend of mine, had a lease, went out there hunted and, uh, it's interesting, you know, I, I hunted with a rifle, but, um, the traditional way is to get into blinds and of course, you know, baiting's popular and whatnot. And so, but it was just hard, it's hard for me to sit still. I mean, we're used to glassing and using 15s and 10s and whatnot. And so, oh man, well, once you go, if you come from that background sitting still and that's, you know, even within the country we're in, we don't sit still a whole lot.

Um, you know, being able to be mobile and bounce around and bringing out, you know, everything from the 10s all the way up to the big glass. Um, yeah. Oh man, that's a fun, that's, yeah, that's a little more entertaining way to hunt in my opinion, but, uh, sitting in those, you know, tree stands are a very effective way of killing them. If you do your homework, especially, especially for the archery, it's probably the only real way to hunt them with a bow, you know, especially, I mean, you've got them moving so much and, and if you've got specific bucks patterned or, or, uh, you know, you've got a lot of does on your place or whatever, and you know, it's going to happen and you've got the time to just dedicate to mornings and evenings, maybe work in the middle of the day or whatever and, and do them, spend a month doing it. I mean, totally. Oh, absolutely.

Totally see why guys are doing it for the month of November. Well, and that's, you know, I, I catch a, I catch a lot of flack with white tail guys because personally, I don't, I don't particularly like hunting the peak of the rut. Um, you know, just because we're always looking for an individual buck and, you know, when November 15th rolls around and he's off chasing does, man, you know, a buck that you, you know, know really well could be three or four miles away. Um, and, you know, and when that happens, you know, like I said, I prefer, I prefer hunt them a little earlier or especially post rut after they sort of does stop cycling. They start to come down off that seems to be a, a better time to hunt individual bucks, but peak of the rut, they're definitely moving. It's just hard to keep track of them. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. That's crazy.

Well, anyway, so yeah, I'm sitting in a blind and I, uh, I just can't take it. So I get out and I start glassing and I'm running, I'm running roads within our lease, uh, to glass off my window mount just from the truck. And I know it seems weird and I'm like, okay, I'm out of here. I'm going to leave. Like I'm leaving. Like I'm going home, you know? Um, cause it's post rut and I don't know about specific bucks and it was just one of those things. It just felt, uh, it wasn't working. It wasn't jiving anyway. And I'm like, I made one pass through. There was kind of some activity. I turned around. I'm like another pass glass up this buck. He sees me. He starts to take off. Anyway, killer instinct kicks in and I end up just, you know, killing this deer. And, um, anyway, just so funny. I mean, I'm glassing. Here I am glass. And I'm like, I would have mule there.

It's the farthest thing from what I, I'm thinking. Okay. I'm the worst white tail hunter in the world. I know I'm not supposed to be doing this. In fact, I don't even want to admit it, you know? And then I tell a couple of my buddies and they're like, oh yeah, dude, that's one of the most effective ways to kill a big white tail this time of year is to glass, you know? And I'm like, oh, really? Like nobody told me that. I was always thinking you're supposed to spend 14 hours in a stand and not move and, you know, pee in a Gatorade bottle or whatever, you know? Oh, absolutely. Well, and I think that's one of the, you know, unique things about the, you know, there's western part of Kansas, the eastern part of Colorado, you know, that's country where you can glass. Yeah. You could, you could get away with that. You can't do that in Southern Iowa. No, no.

You're not going to glass in Southern Iowa. Yeah. You might not have any glass other than your range finder. I don't know. I have no idea actually, but, but I am gaining points in Iowa. Someday I'll hunt there. Maybe. All right. Well, Iowa, that'll be, you'll have to, have to tape you to the stand. That's a little more sitting and dancing for sure. Well, that's when I'll do archery in the rut for sure. I just don't see myself doing, you know, a muzzleloader, late season, cold, miserable, you know what I mean? Like the rut. I think that's where it's at. Oh, absolutely, man. And that's, you know, hunting them, hunting them during the peak of the rut is you just see things, you know, and that time of year, you'll find them in places that you just, you know, every year, you know, I find bucks just, just driving around and what's he doing over there? He's not supposed to be there.

Uh, you know, they'll find those old homesteads and places like that. Those mature bucks, they're, they're smart, you know, during the peak of the rut, instead of, instead of keeping their hot doe down in a river bottom or in an area with a high concentration of deer, he nudges her out into the hills and they find, you know, just little nooks, um, you know, little nooks to tender in where he's away from other bucks and doesn't have to deal with all the competition. Uh, pretty, pretty neat seeing them in that open country. Oh, I can imagine. So, well, tell me a little more about, um, maybe the outlook on Kansas, what's going on with it right now. I know I had a lot of big deer pitchers roll in, but I don't know that that's necessarily indicative of the state that Kansas is in right now, as far as, you know, ground, moisture, whatever. Um, yes, sir.

Well, you know, starting off the Western part of Kansas is that country. I think similar to y'all where drought is a serious concern always, you know, every year in Western Kansas, we're, you know, just hoping and hoping for moisture. Uh, and, you know, kind of the state, the state we're at right now in the Western part of the state is we finally started getting moisture. We didn't have a great, uh, didn't have a great winter, relatively mild, relatively dry up through March. And then we started, you know, thank goodness we started getting rain in March. Um, so I think as far as moisture wise, we're definitely not out of the woods in Western Kansas, as far as, uh, you know, rainfall, we, we, we'll take as much as we can get. Um, and then on the Eastern part of the state, you know, things I think are looking a little bit better over there.

Um, you know, I think we're seeing some units kind of coming back, uh, you know, eight, nine, um, a little bit in 14, you know, seeing some bucks, you know, those are kind of historical hotspots in the state that kind of took a downturn due to, you know, some disease issues and some, some drought issues and kind of the 2000s, early two thousands. Uh, but it seems like those units are coming back really good. Um, seeing a lot of just, just big bucks coming from over there. Um, but you know, like we've talked about, man, you know, even we've talked a little bit about units 15 and 16, kind of the historical, uh, you know, gem of Kansas, as far as whitetails, uh, you know, 15 and 16 kind of took a slowdown around, oh, or sometime around 2010 was the big EHD die off over there. And those units are, are getting a little bit better, but they, you know, they really can't catch a break, man.

Um, I've spent today doing a little research for this and read some about the fires that have gone through that country. Yeah. Um, you know, particularly around Ashland, uh, uh, Clark County, that area, you know, millions of acres, um, burned in wildfires between Oklahoma, Kansas, and then the panhandle of Texas. Uh, and that's, that's going to affect the, that's going to affect things a little bit in 16. I think they were kind of starting to look up a little bit and certain parts of the unit that were really affected by those fires are, uh, took a pretty good setback again. So, you know, I, I hope, I hope in time those units will get better, but. You know, I, um, it's, it's going to be a little bit before they come back and really start, uh, really start producing the way they were. Yeah. Well, having said that, you're not going to quit hunting Kansas.

I mean, you're, it's something you're going to do every year, right? No, no. And that's, you know, and that's the, the, even, even with a deer herd taking a little downturns here and there, uh, Kansas is a state that any given time, any given area, you can find just a giant. Um, you know, I think for, for whitetail hunters, guys that are really serious on the whitetails, you know, you bring up Kansas and most of them, it's not really a question of, of whether, whether you go to Kansas, it's where do you go? Um, everybody goes. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's, it's one of those, one of those spots that they're one of those states that just has the diversity and opportunity and will always drought years, down years, bad years. It will still produce some great bucks for sure. Yeah. Well, uh, talk to me a little bit about hunting early versus late.

Like, um, I know the tactics change a little bit too is, and, uh, you know, if like if I were after a specific giant, I would have a tendency and you can correct me if I'm wrong cause I know nothing about it, but I would be like, I would be early. I'd be on it, working it all summer and try to kill them, you know, in a summer hot pattern where they're truly patterned and, uh, you know, try to kill a giant that way. Of course, I know the rut's popular and most, most guys maybe, you know, uh, are addicted to hunting in November, you know, archery, but just kind of want to get your take on that early versus late. And then even, you know, the December hunting as well. Yes, sir. Well, you know, for mule deer, especially that early hunt can be just magical. You know, those, uh, I believe the dates this year, September 11 to 24. Yeah. Yeah, no.

And those dates are going to find bucks extremely, you know, extremely, uh, focused on agriculture. Um, you know, you know, our main crop in Western Kansas, we're going to find the mule deers is Milo, you know, bring out the lawn chairs, that country. Yeah. Yeah. But that'll, that'll, I know all about the lawn chairs. Oh, that's right. Yeah. No, that, that's, that's man. A lot of those deer will be in Milo. And that's the kind of time of year where if you find them in, you know, you find them in August, you find them a month before the season, odds are pretty good. He's going to be not too far off, uh, come that September 11th opener. And that's the special thing about that early season. I mean, the deer movement is minimal. You know, it's, it is, uh, the planes are a hot place, uh, a hot place in late summer.

So your window to find the deers, you know, you got a little time in the morning and a little time in the evening. Um, and doing a lot of movement in the middle of the day, do a lot of many, many hours of yeah, lounging, work on your suntan, you know, it's, uh, but that, that time of year, you know, between the glassing. And then if you can identify some, you know, really water sources that are really getting pounded, man, cameras can be super effective at locating those, those early season bucks. Um, but as far as patternable doesn't get any better than that. Um, you know, as you get into October, they go hard horn. Um, and that, you know, generally speaking with both white tails and mule deer there, they kind of go hard horn and you see their seasonal range shift. Um, you know, they kind of switch from their, you know, whatever area they summer to where

they're going to, you know, rut, uh, where they're going to breed and all that sort of stuff, uh, comes, you know, towards mid October is, is that, as that occurs. And then you get into the rut and the rut, I think similar to you guys on your, you know, Colorado third and fourth season hunts and wherever a big mule deer can kind of pop up anywhere. Um, they're pretty transient that time of year. And, uh, you know, it's crazy with the deer densities up there. You think, man, there's just does everywhere. Well, they don't have to move around. Well, they still like to roam around. Right. Exactly. And sometimes you can find, you know, every buck is a little bit different. You'll find a big, you know, big mature buck. That'll stay, uh, mule deer wise talking mule deer here, but find a mature buck. That'll stay with a group of does and you can locate him pretty consistently.

And, you know, we've had other bucks, we hunted a buck last year that, oh, I found them in one spot and it was just great, big, typical deep forks, just a beautiful, beautiful five point little cheaters. Uh, but anyway, we find him and he moves, you know, find him one day, find him six days later, six miles, one direction, uh, go back there the next day. And he's moved, you know, he's moved two miles, the other direction from where he originally was, you know, he's moving, you know, drawn eight miles square around that middle point. And he was, he was in there somewhere every day, but it was really hard to keep track of him. Um, and that's the, definitely the frustration of the rut, but you know, Kansas is unique in that you can archery hunt every day in the month of November. Um, you know, you get pre-rut, you get the, the rut itself, which tends to on mule deer,

I think out in that country seems to peak sometime around November 18th, somewhere in there. Okay. And, uh, from there you get, you know, you get to hunt them all the way through the post rut too. Uh, yeah, just hunt them. You just hunt them. Yeah. Yeah. You've got, you've got four months, uh, you know, you get to hunt them and pretty much from velvet all the way through, you know, post rut when they're worn down and, and habitually back on food and just, you know, licking their wounds from the rut. Yeah. Well, and let's talk about whitetails. I mean, early season might just be brutal on whitetails. Maybe they're not even real, really killable in, in September. I don't know. Tell me about that. It, it, it can, you know, it can be Jason. That's a, honestly for white sales, that's a season, those early season dates I've kind of avoided.

Um, generally speaking, just the white, the bigger whitetails, man, they're bashed up similar to the mule deer. Uh, and they'll be spread a little bit. There'll be some that's, you know, stay in the river bottom year round. And there'll be some that leave the river bottom and have little bachelor groups miles out into, uh, into the cropland. Um, you know, and I think if you can find them early, uh, if you can find them early out in that open country, I think they'd probably be pretty darn killable. Um, but man, they're, they just, man, they're finicky about moving in the heat. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. I know it. They're tough. They're, they're tough animal and, uh, they're smart. You know, I know that. And I haven't even hunted them that much, but, and I can see how guys get addicted to them and they're, they're hard to kill.

So even some of these guys that are, you know, made their living hunting giant whitetails, um, you know, haven't killed a 200 inch or yet or whatever. And of course I know that's, that's like killing a 220 or 30 inch mule deer. I mean, it's just incredible. Yeah. That's a, that's a, that's a tall order. And that, you know, with whitetails and, you know, I hunt with some, some Western guys who are, are, are mule deer fanatics and they come out and think, you know, 180 is a number that you can easily assign. You know, it's, it's a, it's a mule deer number. Uh, 180 inch whitetail is a pretty rare, uh, pretty rare animal. Um, yeah, that's a, that's a hard one to come by for sure. Yeah. Well, yeah. Well, Boone and Crockett's 170 net. And so it's kind of telling you, you know, you're asking for 10 inches bigger than that and, and, uh, tells you how tough it can be.

And so anyway, but, uh, but nevertheless, it's, it's quite, it's one of those things I've got to do it someday. And, you know, people don't sell you big whitetails. I mean, and, and, and I know, I mean, it's one of those things like, you know, I've had guys call me and say, Hey, you know, I want to book a hunt to hunt a giant. I want a place that's, you know, consistently producing 170 plus inch or has that potential, you know, 180 year or plus. And, you know, those, those places have guys coming back for the past 15 years and booked for the next 15 and, and really quite rare. It's hard to commercialize big whitetail and, uh, you know, to say, you know, this guy's got an operation, he's phenomenal book with him, you know, and, and that may happen. And I still think you're gonna have to put 20 years in to kill that deer. We're kind of talking. No, I, I agree with you, Jason.

You know, I think in, you know, the principal difference being between mule deer and whitetails are, you know, if you really want a giant muley, uh, and you have the, the means to do it, you can buy some pretty darn good tags and have a pretty good chance at, you know, a 200 inch buck, um, on whitetails, you know, there's just, well, number one, there's so many whitetail hunters, uh, you know, it's a statistics. I always like to look at there's, there's more deer hunters in the state of Pennsylvania than there are elk hunters in the West. Yeah. Um, that's a good way to look at it. So everybody, everybody, a lot of people whitetail hunt. And that being said, when the good spot comes around, um, you know, a place that has that true 170 inch plus potential, uh, man, people, people get in there and they stay. Uh, I don't blame them. I do the same thing. Yeah. Yeah.

You're still looking for good property nonstop, you know, and it, oh, it's, it's a never, never ending. Yeah. It's a never ending cycle for sure. Um, but as far as, yeah, those hunts where, you know, there really is that 170 inch potential, uh, Kansas definitely has it on the good ranches that are there, which there are a lot of good ranches in Kansas. Uh, you know, beyond that, you're looking, some of the Canadian opportunities are pretty good. Some of the Eastern plains of Colorado opportunities are pretty good. Yeah. Uh, but there's not, there's not that one spot. I could tell you like, man, you know, this is, this is where we get you that giant. Um, yeah, it's, it's just, uh, if you hunt it for 10 years, you'll get a giant. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we may have to start doing that. Yeah. Steven, like I'm, it does get me fired up and seeing some of these white tails, which

is ginormous eye guards. Of course, that's what I love about any deer is just crazy amounts of eye guards and length on them. And I mean, it's just my thing and white tails have them, you know, so. Oh yeah. No, that's a little, little different than your muleies. Although I've seen a few of your mule deer have pretty cool prowess. Yeah. Yeah. That's for sure. I sure like them with that. But you know, uh, the interesting thing too, is like to hunt a mule deer in Kansas, you've got to draw that white tail tag, then apply for the mule deer stamp. There's preference points for the white tail tags. There's no preference or bonus points for the stamp and your stamps really tough to draw. The white tail tags easy part. And so, you know, then guys are getting that white tail tag, not drawing the stamp and you're stuck with a $442, you know, white tail tag.

It's kind of frustrating for a mule deer hunter. You've got to, when you apply in Kansas, you kind of got to plan on, you know, or at least it makes sense financially to, to apply for Kansas for the mule deer stamp. If you're going to hunt white tails as well. Yeah. And that's where, you know, I think in some of these Western units in the state, I think, you know, I'm sure it happens. Guys draw the white tail tag, don't draw the mule deer stamp and then they don't come. Yeah. There's a $440 application fee. That's an awfully expensive application. And that's, you know, the, and that's kind of the reality with the Kansas mule deers. There are, and there are some tremendous bucks in that country for sure. You know, every year, I know locally they're all here of, you know, a 220 type buck or something like that that's been harvested in Western Kansas.

But, you know, it's a big geographic area. Deer densities are high and the numbers of giants are just like everywhere else. They're pretty dang low. You know, you're talking about a couple bucks every year to kind of keep us all interested in, in Kansas mule deer, you know, not, not, not a bunch, just a few of them. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Well, good. Well, I know the application period's like April 1st to the 28th. So it's coming up on us. I'll be applying. I imagine I have drawn a few tags. So speaking of which, I do want to quiz you a little bit. So today the New Mexico draw results come out. I know you indicated on text that you drew a tag. So what did you end up with? Oh, I ended up drawing a 23 first archery tag. And, uh, oh, let me tell you, man, I'm, I'm the kind of guy, I will say I have the black

cloud in the draws because I've drawn, I've drawn a few tags over the years here and there, but I'm just, just juiced up. And, uh, you know, I, I, heck, as soon as I draw it, I called you. That's one of those tags that, you know, through what you guys are doing, I kind of, uh, you know, I think the unit ended up drawing as a unit that fits my style of hunting. It's a unit I'm really going to enjoy, I'm sure. And wouldn't really know about if it wasn't for you guys and what you're doing. And I sure do appreciate that, man. I'm, uh, going to be, going to be a fun September. Well, you know, I, I drew that same exact tag a few years ago. It was featured on the Ridge Reaper TV show, but it did end up killing like a 367 inch gross bull. Yeah. So not like September 7th, but he was full rut. Like he was bugling and carrying on. It was a great hunt.

And it was a very low, lower densities of elk, I would say. And there, of course, there were a couple of other, you know, giants in there, but, uh, but I, uh, yeah, I know a guy that could help you a little bit with that, Steven. I'll be, uh, I'll be getting in touch with you for sure. Cause you know, it's one of those units that I've, oh, I've researched it some, but, uh, you know, it's kind of an intimidating unit. It's pretty big. And it sounds like there's a lot of country where there isn't a whole lot of elk. Um, so getting, getting started, it's going to be a long summer of prep for that. And I'll probably get out there a couple of weeks early and just get after it, see what happens. Yeah. And that's the one thing about you. I know you've spent a lot of time and, and I kind of want to do talk about that as some of the guys that you hunt with and what you've learned from them.

They're pretty significant hunters in the industry. I know a few of them and, and, uh, and you guys, I mean, you've spent months with these guys. I know you, you've come out here out West and, and I keep asking everybody like, what's he having for a job? I mean, this guy doesn't do anything, but just hang with people that got good tags. And so anyway, I know you've got the time. If there's anybody that would spend, you know, 20 to 30 plus days on, on one tag, it would be you. Um, but anyway, tell me about some of these guys you've hunted with and a, and a little bit about what you've learned over the years. Well, and that's, you know, for me, I had a, I had a regular job up through 2015. I was in wildlife consulting and I worked with private landowners, helping them with, you know, helping them really helping them grow big deer.

Um, and I looked at, I looked at things at that point and said, you know, I really want to do more Western hunting. I want to go and experience some of these things. I just don't have time to experience. And anyway, I stepped off, uh, left my job there and just started hunting and writing about hunting and trying to make my way kind of in the outdoor industry at that point. Um, and since then, you know, I started around that time. I started hunting a lot with, uh, Dave and Pat Losher, which are, oh, we've got a Cedar city boy and then an Arizona. That's right. Yeah. Dave lives a couple of blocks from me. That's right. Neighbor Dave started running around with him. And, um, you know what, man, those guys, I just, I've learned so much from those guys, you know, um, was able to spend, you know, I've hunted whitetails with them. We've hunted elk together.

Uh, they're like you, they're trying to get their, the mule deer hooks in me. Um, but, uh, you know, those guys have just taken, uh, the learning curve, you know, coming from Georgia, I'm always up against a pretty stout learning curve just because I didn't grow up in the mountains. Um, and I'll tell you what, those guys have just taken that learning curve and been very patient with me and just kind of taking me under their wing and man, I've learned tremendous, tremendous amounts from them. And, you know, seeing what makes those guys successful and, you know, this goes, there's Dave and Pat, and then I've hunted a little bit with Dan Evans, uh, spent some time with him on the mountain and what makes those guys successful, you know, number one, I think everybody you have on picks it up quick. It's, it's a lot of time.

And the second thing I noticed with those guys, Jason, is they just wake up, whether it's day one or day 20, uh, they wake up every day and just work at a good pace and they're optimistic and they're awesome to hunt with. And, you know, I think that's just that positive thinking, man. I think that's what makes a lot of those guys successful. Um, you know, they just go at it a really hard every day and, um, man, they're just upbeat and positive, a blast to hunt with. Well, you know, I don't know how you've weaseled your way into their hunting camps, but you sure have. Those are guys I'd want to hunt with. And, uh, and I know, you know, their success speaks for itself. I mean, we all know what Dan Evans has done in the elk world and, and I'm, uh, I'm super proud of him. And, and, you know, it may be even a little envious. I like them big bulls too.

And, and he's made a living at it, you know, and, but like I say, you can only have so many addictions. And so anyway, I'd have to slow down on these deer and, and I don't know if that can happen. So anyway, and I know the lochers, uh, Pat just killed an absolute giant of a bull this last year in Arizona. He's killed out on the plains. He's killed some giant stuff. He's killed big mule deer, um, you know, Colorado and other States. He's just, you know, he's a serious hunter and an animal. And of course, Dave is the same, his brother. And they've done, you know, they hunt together a lot and, and, uh, you know, they've hunted with some of the, you know, Greg Krogs of the world and Jason Campbells and some of these guys that are just serious about big deer and big elk and about anything they put their mind to, they're successful at, you know?

Well, just, uh, you know, from watching those guys and actually I was, was with Pat in Arizona this past year when he, when he took his, his, his Arizona bull and you know what that was the, that bull was, we saw that was the last hour of the last day, um, went into the day without a whole lot of good things on our, you know, I didn't, didn't know, I didn't have him found, didn't know where he was. I kind of heard rumors about him, but that's, you know, Pat just keeps, keeps at it. I mean, doesn't, doesn't give up. And that's, uh, you know, I think that, that, that resilience is really what makes all those guys so dang successful. Yeah. Yeah. They go at it as if they're okay to eat a tag every day. And they also wake up, like you said, with a renewed vigor, almost like it's day one. Like you don't see a 20 on their face, you know, they may grumble a little bit in the

middle of the day, but, but those guys aren't giving up, you know, they are not giving up. Oh, that's, that's, that's it, man. And, you know, for me, I'm a, I'm a young guy. I'm 29 now. I'll be 30, got the big 30 coming up here before too long. Well, you know, beyond the hunting, those guys provide, man, just life advice. Look after me, keep me, uh, you know, keep me in check. Young guy can act up sometimes. And those guys, man, couldn't ask for a better group of friends. Yeah, you bet. Well, uh, as we kind of wrap this one up, is there anything you want to leave us with, Steve, I mean, anything that you think we've left out or that, uh, maybe a significant part of your success or success of others that you've seen over the years? Oh, you know, Jason, I think it's just consistent, consistency and a lot of time, man. You know, uh, I, I don't think there's really any secrets.

Um, you know, I, I think growing up, I thought that, oh man, these guys, they just, they all know something that I just, most people just don't know. And they certainly know a lot of, of, of stuff, but at the end of the day, they just take it and face it every day. And man, they don't, uh, don't give up, man, you know, uh, work really hard at it. And, you know, and the reality is tech, all these big animals we see every year, man, it just takes tremendous. It takes a tremendous amount of work. Yeah. There's no, especially consistency, you know, and, and of course we all get lucky at times and I take that every time it comes around. Oh, no doubt. Yeah. No, that, well, that doesn't happen often, but what it does, man, that's just fantastic. Yeah. Well, and I think a big part of some of the success is just knowing these different Western States fairly intimately. Look at what you've done.

I mean, you're traveling to Nevada, you're spending time with guys, you're spending 30 days and you don't even have a tag. It's not even your tag, but you're doing it so you can learn more. If you want to get lantern tags, buy a lantern tag or, or, uh, applying the draws and maybe you find one specific bull and you start naming them. And I mean, you've gone to great lengths to learn some of this country and, and, uh, and that's what it takes. There's no substitute for it. It's just really sinking in, diving in whether you've got a tag or not. Oh yeah. And that's, you know, and I really admire, you know, I'm in a situation where, you know, I'm a, I have a girlfriend home and I have a dog, um, but I don't have kids yet, not married yet. Um, so I'm able to, to, you know, sacrifice some of that time at home.

And it's always so remarkable to me, man, these guys that balance a great home life and a great hunting schedule. Um, dude, you know, I've, I've met, I met, I know I got to meet one of your boys in Vegas one year at, at, at SCI and man, that's being able to do what you do and then maintain the family life, Jason. That's the really impressive thing to me, you know, um, that's tough. Well, it doesn't go without having a good wife. And then to, um, you know, just involving him, they want to go more than I can possibly take them more than their sports will allow the school will allow. I mean, a couple of them are probably on the verge of getting kicked out. I don't know. I just, it's hard. I've never known a kid to get kicked out and not graduate for it, but, but it might happen and my kids will probably be the first.

So anyway, but, uh, but yeah, we are extremely fortunate to be able to, you know, live out here. Like you talked about your 20 hours from Kansas. And I mean, we are, we live right here in the middle of some of this stuff. I still, you know, it's still a good John. If I ever want to get serious about Kansas, you know, it's a long ways for me too. So absolutely. But anyway, I just want to thank you, Steven, for spending some time with me today and just visiting about some of this stuff. I know Kansas isn't an easy one and everybody has questions about it and we all see the pictures and there's always, you know, a few giant mule deer and a few giant, you know, white tails and just, I don't know. I don't know that we even, you know, captured what it really takes. It's, I guess it's a lot of luck. Outfitter situation's hard. You know, we were drought stricken.

I mean, there's a lot of different variables that come into play. Well, and you know, for, for guys that are interested in, in big white tails and interested in Kansas, particularly, uh, you know, I, I really think the hardest part of the process going the first time, taking that first step and, you know, realizing year one, year one might be a lot of learning. Uh, it might be a lot of, it might be a lot of pain and misery and not many big bucks, but you're going to learn things. And, you know, over, over the few years of doing that, you're going to isolate down some areas that have the kind of deer you're looking for. Uh, it's just taking that first step with it, with any, you know, with any hunting, that's always the hardest part. Uh, just getting there, getting there the first time and getting started. Yeah.

Well, the nice thing is if you're hunting white tails anyway, you can pretty much draw every year. The odds are easy. So that's right. That's right. And that's, uh, that's a big help for sure. Okay. Well, thanks again. I sure appreciate your time. No. All right, Jason. Thank you. You betcha. Hey, uh, just want to throw a shout out out there to Under Armour. Appreciate them and, and for sponsoring this podcast and a lot of different projects that we're working on here at the Epic office. So anyway, hope you enjoyed visit, learning about this one here in Kansas with Steven and some of the different stories. He's a good dude. I've known him for quite a few years and just can't say thanks enough. And, uh, we'll go from there. Good luck in the draws, everybody.