EP 17: Mule Deer Foundation President Miles Moretti

Everybody grew up hunting mule deer. What can we do that will make a difference? You want higher populations, but you want to keep hunting them and not lose your hunting privileges. It seems like every predator out there likes to eat mule deer. Anything to do with Western big game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors Podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody, it's Jason Carter. Welcome to the Epic Outdoors Podcast, powered by Under Armour Hunt. In these episodes, we generally sit down with some of the leading people in the industry, as well as biologists and DWR guys and different conservation organizations, and just extract good and valuable information and ideas that help us become more educated as sportsmen and also help us become more successful at hunting. So anyway, if you're new to the show, don't forget to subscribe to the Epic Outdoors Podcast, as well as on our YouTube channel. Today's guest, we've got Miles Moretti, the president of the Mule Deer Foundation. Welcome, Miles. Hey, great to be here. Thanks, Jason. You bet. Thanks for taking some time to be with us. I've known Miles for many, many years. Miles has got an extremely long resume.

I'll let him talk about it a little bit, but anyway, he's been a significant person in the Utah Division of Wildlife, as well as now. He's the leader of the Mule Deer Foundation, which is near and dear to my heart because everybody knows I love mule deer and will do anything to hunt those things down. So you provide the opportunities, and I take advantage of those, Miles, and I appreciate that. I appreciate that. Anyway, give us a little bit of your history and background of hunting and how you got to where you are today. Well, you know, I like to always start out because I was born in Wyoming, and so I'm still a Wyoming boy at heart, even though I've lived in Utah a lot of years. And I always tell people I grew up in the golden age of mule deer in southwest Wyoming. That's what we hunted. We didn't have a lot of other things to hunt back then. Antelope were just coming in, sage-grouse.

We had to go north to hunt elk or moose. So I love mule deer, always have loved mule deer. I had a chance to go to Utah State University, and that's where I met your dad, and we went to school together. It was a lot of years ago. It was many years ago. In fact, I was born in Logan, which was while he was going to school. Right, yeah. So we go way back, and then we ended up both working for the division together. And I worked with the Division of Wildlife Resources for 30 years, you know, started out as a biologist, came up through the ranks, and then was director for a short time, and then ended my career as deputy director. And after 30 years, I started looking around and saying, I want to do something different. I want to make a difference. And Mule Deer Foundation offered me the job. They offered to move our headquarters from Reno to Salt Lake. I didn't have to move.

I said, that's the best of both worlds. And I really view Salt Lake, Utah as the center of mule deer habitat. Yeah. Everything, you know, it's, you know. Well, within 10 or 12 hours, you could be about anywhere, Miles. You could be in New Mexico, Colorado. You've got Montana, Wyoming, Oregon. And so it is somewhat centrally located. Yeah. And so, you know, so that last 10 years, when I walked into MDF, it was struggling. It had gone through some budget things and was really struggling with its identity. So we came in, reorganized, refocused. And so we've seen tremendous growth in the last 10 years. We've got over 150 chapters nationwide. We've got over 40,000 members. And I have to laugh because we just signed a charter in Shreveport, Louisiana. Geez. And there are people from Louisiana that come out and hunt in the west and love mule deer.

And they're willing to have a local banquet there. How awesome is that? It's amazing. I would have never thought that. They don't have mule deer there, right? They don't have mule deer. And you don't have plans to put them there, right? We don't have plans to put them there. But we'll take their money. Well, we appreciate them and their support. And that's awesome. You know, there are chapters spread out all over. And sometimes that's what it takes, a great big footprint to make quite a change here in the west. Right. You know? And so, you know, what I find interesting, Miles, is I can't help but think how much knowledge you have by being involved in the DWR. And you were involved on the state side while working with organizations. And now you're on the organization side, the conservation side, working with the DWR. And so how do you feel like that's helped you in your current position?

Well, when I left, I was, you know, a lot of the directors were my peers. And so as times changed, those individuals that have come up out of the ranks of these state wildlife agencies, I was on committees with a lot of those guys. You know? And now they're directors and deputy directors and chief of wildlife. And so it's all about relationships. It's all about relationships. You build those relationships. You meet people through your career. You never know where they're going to end up. I run into people all the time that are my seasonals back in the 70s and 80s. And they're now in positions of authority and where they can make a difference and give us funding and partner. So that part's really critical. And state wildlife agencies, we view them as our partner. We're maybe not as political as some groups and in there every day asking to change regulations. Sure.

But if there's something they're doing we don't like, we're willing to tell them. Absolutely. You know? Well, and you've got to have a backbone. You've got to stand for something. And we all need to do that. And that's what makes a good leader. And I think that shows with your leadership. And so, yeah, there's a lot of good things that come from Mueller. I can see how relationships is everything, you know, with our business as you go throughout time. And, you know, we're relatively a young company, but we're doing extremely well in the short time that we've been doing it. And it's based on relationships. It's 100% relationships and how you treat people. Absolutely. You've got to have those. And you've got to have credibility. And that's a big thing. You know, you do what you say you're going to do, you know, and you follow through. And that makes a huge difference.

And I think that's one of the things that's really helped us is when we commit to fund a project or do something or get our volunteers out there, we're there. You're following through. We're following through. Yeah. Others sometimes commit money, and they go, well, that was just a pledge. I can't do that, you know. Yeah. Well, that's great. And so what are some of maybe some of the goals of Mueller Foundation, you know, like where you've been, where you are, and where you're headed? I know Mueller Foundation, you know, everybody grew up hunting Mueller. I mean, every single deer, elk, sheep, and bear hunter is a Mueller hunter at heart. Right, right. I mean, we all grew up doing that. And so you would think you'd be one of the largest organizations there is. What are some of the challenges with that?

I know we're all trying to grow, whether it be a private business or a conservation organization. We're all trying to grow, and that's the name of the game. And so what do you feel like some of the challenges are of that? Well, interestingly, a year ago there was an organization formed, National Deer Alliance, which I'm on that board with some whitetail groups. And they're more of a political group. But one of the statistics that came out of that is there's 11 million deer hunters in the United States. Of course, there's a lot more whitetail hunters than mule deer hunters. But less than 1% of those deer hunters belong to any group. Yeah. And I just wish. Why is that? Because deer have always been so plentiful. And I think you're 100% right. We've always had deer tags. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Always had deer tags, and you can go buy them over the counter.

Well, in the West, that's not happening anymore. It's changed. It's changed. And so people are really starting to come on board and say, wait a minute, what can we do? What can we do that will make a difference? Yeah. And that's where our habitat projects and all the other things we do, research, everything else comes in. We're now saying, here's how you can help us. Well, and I've seen, so speaking of change, I know back in the 80s you could get an over-the-counter strip tag even. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, look, it's once in a lifetime basically for a non-resident now. Right. And same thing with General Utah. You know, I mean, we used to have, basically you could just buy them over-the-counter. We did buy them over-the-counter. Oh, yeah. And that's somewhat gone away. I mean, yeah, it's still easy to draw, but you are under a draw system.

And so we are seeing that before our very eyes changing. And I think a large part of it is you've got a limited, finite resource and habitat to support that resource. And then you've got a growing population of hunters, which is good. We want to encourage hunters. We want to encourage that. But it does, it comes with a price, so to speak. Yeah. And the other thing I always tell a lot of our people, you know, some of the opportunity we've lost is our hunters have demanded better quality deer. Yeah. They got tired of shooting the two points. Yes. You know. And so what I say, they always say, how do you get big deer? And I say, first of all, you've got to have old deer. Yes. They've got to get beyond two years old to get big where people like them. So if you're going to do that, that means you're stockpiling bucks and your range can't carry as many deer.

So the agencies are restricting how many tags, you know. Yes. And so. That's quite a challenge to manage. You're not just managing deer, Miles. And you know this from the DWR days. You're managing the social aspect. It's social. You know, you're trying to keep everybody happy while also trying to manage the deer and do what's right for the deer. If you just did what was right for the deer. Yeah. You would have somewhat of a different management plan from the game and fish. Absolutely. But we are trying to keep people happy. Yeah. And so, yeah, you're right. People do want to go out there and feel like they can harvest a mature deer or maybe even a 30-inch buck. Now we measure in inches. Yeah. And, you know, grow score instead of inches wide. Yeah. Back when you were a kid, it was 30 inches wide. Yeah. And how many points a side?

You know, a lot of times when I was a kid, I remember we just shot a deer. Yeah. We saw a deer, we shot it, and generally it was a big deer. It wasn't a small deer. Yeah. And a long time ago, there was even party hunting. There were so many deer. I mean, it has changed so much, you know. Yeah, it really has. So, anyway, and I think, you know, also from the management and biology side of things, it's healthy for herds to have a large number of mature bucks. Absolutely. To do the breeding. Absolutely. And maybe there's a lot of theories, I know, behind that. Yeah. Where the breeding takes, you know, takes place and, you know, the intensity of the rut and the timing of the rut, which the timing of the fawns hit the ground. I mean, there's a lot of theories and different things where predation can come involved. Yeah. And depending on when the fawns hit the ground. Yeah.

You know, if they're spread out, there could be a lot more predation versus all hitting at the same time. Yeah, and there's some real merit to that. And, you know, and that is another factor that we're challenged with all the time is the P word, predators. Yes. Is, man, now we got wolves on the landscape and in some places grizzlies on the landscape, more coyotes than ever. States are wanting to ban lion hunting and they're wanting to ban bear hunting. Yes. And, you know, from the social, and it's all social. It's not biological. And so there's a lot of pressure because it seems like every predator out there likes to eat a mule deer. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, it's kind of an easy target, you know, so to speak. And they are plentiful and generally speaking compared to other animals. And so anyway, yeah, I think there's a lot that goes into that.

And two, when we manage wildlife, you know, there's a lot of things we can't manage. We can't manage the snowfall you guys had this year in northern Utah. And Wyoming and Colorado and Oregon and Idaho and even Montana. You get this where it comes in. It just crushes our deer herds. And so all this work for the last five, six, seven, eight, ten years, you're like, oh, my gosh. We're starting over square one. Yeah. And you hope you have just enough does to keep the breeding going, you know, and now we've got to double our population again. And how are we going to do that? Well, I can tell you one of the things that's helped is with everybody, us, and focusing on some habitat improvement and across the whole range. But when you have these winter events, hopefully there will be a few more deer that survive, except, you know, this has been an unused 50-year event. Yeah. Yeah.

But the thing of it is, I think everybody's focusing on deer. And so when we have these weather events, hopefully we can recover a little bit faster now. Whereas before, our habitat was getting so bad that when you had a nice weather, the productivity wasn't there. Well, and I think it's important, too, is there's only so many factors we can control. Yeah. And so we try to control those. And that might be doing a chaining, predator control. Like, we can control some of those things. Yeah. Although it was extremely effective using 1080 back in the day when you were first with the DWR. Yeah. You know, and we had no predators because of poison. And then we had high deer numbers because of, thankfully, the poison. But then, you know, times change. We can't use that. So what are the other methods? And then we do have predator issues. But we're always going to have predator issues.

But sometimes, you know, we feel like, well, let's control the things we can control to help the deer the best we can. Because the things we can't control, we truly can't control. Yeah. And the thing of it is, I think we've accelerated those things. We're finding new with this new technology. We're finding out more about migration corridors, about nutrition, about things like CWD, you know, things like that. We're learning so much more that now we're able to focus on some of those things that maybe if we can do one or two small things, that we may actually have a big impact. So tell me some of the different avenues, if you will, things that you're involved in. So like you said, you're doing studies. You might be doing habitat. You're doing, do you donate to predator control? I mean, what are some of the things, what does the Mule Deer Foundation do? Well, we kind of do it all.

We definitely do habitat. We're a habitat-based organization. And we have a landscape habitat program where we're working on the forest. We're working on the BLM, cutting down pinion juniper, which, you know, invades a lot of winter range. One of the things we found is that the transition range and the summer range has gotten in such poor condition from lack of forest management, lack, you know, and then you get these big, huge fires. Variables that you're not in control. Yeah, you can't control. But if we can go in and do some pre-work before that fire hits. Yeah. Or open up that canopy. It helps increase the productivity of the health of that forest. Because we're finding if those deer come off the forest in poor condition, they do not make it through the winter. Yeah. But if they can come off the forest in good condition. A little bit of fat. They can take a little harder winter. Yeah.

And a mild winter, they do really well. Yeah. And the fawn survival is better because those fawns are bigger, healthier. Yeah. So we're really focusing not only just on the winter range, but on the summer range. We're also actively, anytime there's predator control or predator studies, we're involved in that because we want to know and we want to help do that. Unfortunately, with the social aspects of it, now Colorado decided they wanted to remove some cougars. Okay. Well, the public just went crazy. Yeah. You know, Colorado's getting pretty anti-hunting. Yeah. And so what they had to do is move that into a lion study. Oh, okay. So they put it into a study and they're going to remove some lions. Yes. In one unit and not in the other. Yes. And it's frustrating because we all know lions eat deer. Yes. A lot of deer. We don't need another study. A lot of deer. So.

Let me show you some studies. Yeah. You know. Yeah. Oh, geez. Yeah, that is a challenge. And so what, speaking of challenges, what are, you know, some of the biggest challenges facing mule deer? Well, I think two things. I mean, with these big catastrophic fires, a lot of, because we've been real dry in the West up until this year, you know, when you have a fire in Nevada, it all turns to cheatgrass. Yeah, it does. Cheatgrass is not. At least properly be properly seeded. So having some sort of, we're working nationally on the fire budgets for BLM and the Forest Service that they can get in and do some pre-commercial work, you know, timber work, they call it. But it's thinning out that forest, trying to get some of that so those forests, those fires just don't sweep those huge areas. So we're working hard there. That's something we can work on.

And so that's, we're focusing on that kind of stuff on the habitat arena. We're focusing on trying to do some, you know, legislation like getting wolves delisted in Wyoming and fighting, you know, wolves at the Mexican wolf reintroduction. Because if the Mexican wolves find the Arizona Strip and the Pontiacon, it's going to hurt. It's going to hurt. It's going to hurt. Yeah. And fast. Yeah. And so we're trying to keep that from happening. So we're on the political side of it when we have to be. And then we're on the habitat side. It just feels like there's battles everywhere you turn, doesn't it, Miles? It is. It is. It's like you're, some days I feel like Don Quixote tilting at windmills. I'm just glad it's you, Miles. I'm just glad it's you. Well, good. And so tell me about, like, tell me about some of your funding. Like, where do you get the funding?

How does that all, how does that all work? And then how do you decide, you know, do you have percentages that you distribute funds? And how do you distribute funds and where do you distribute them? Well, we're a banquet-driven organization with 150 chapters across the country. A majority of our revenue comes from banquets. Okay. And in those banquets, we leave a certain percentage at our local level for them to do a project locally. And then, you know, all the money comes to national. But then we reallocate it back out to where the need is and the priority. And we focus on getting the money back to the states where it was raised. But that's a majority of what we do, memberships. So to put in a plug for Mule Deer, go to muledeer.org and join. Okay, yeah. $35. Absolutely. You know, that's something. Anybody that hunts deer should join. They should be a member. They really should.

And they get a nice magazine and a few other things. Yeah, absolutely. But then also, you know, we're now starting getting more and more grants. Of course, we sell over $2 million worth of state auction permits. And when that goes back to the states, in almost every state, it has to go back to projects for the species that was raised. And we get to sit on committees to help to pick those projects with the state agencies. We return over 93% of that money back to the states. Okay. And so let's say 7% to 10% of it is used for administrative costs. Yeah. I mean, it takes money to run an organization. Like this expo, you know. Absolutely. It does. And your day-to-day operations, your buildings, all. And let's face it, if you weren't paid, Miles, like you wouldn't do as good a job. We want you in there and we want to pay you. Yeah. And I want to be paid. Absolutely. We all do.

And that's totally understandable. But then you also have, so let's say, how many on your committee that are paid? Like how many paid employees? We have 27 employees across our whole organization. Okay. And our goal is to keep that at a minimum. Yes. And because we want to stay above 90% of our income going to our mission. So we don't want to be a big bureaucratic. Right. Right. So we run Lean and Mean. But luckily, we've been able to do well enough. So I was able to put a full-time regional director in Idaho this year. Which really needs some help. Yeah. So, you know, we. I love Idaho. Which is just a real. We try to stay as lean as we can for staff. Yeah. It makes sense. Yep. Well, Idaho. Idaho's got some giants. And they've got some of the best genetics in the entire west. And so I'm a little partial to Idaho. But, you know, I live in Utah. And I love Utah.

And harvested some good bucks down here, too. But on those funds. And so, like, when you sell. We're going to sell some tags tonight, Miles. Yeah. And large part. We're going to make some money. Yeah. And so let's say a tag sells for $100,000. Let's just throw that out there. Do you give. Let's say it's $93,000 goes back to Utah DWR. Or does it go into your account where they help you with the projects? Every state's different. Arizona and Nevada, we return 100% of it. Okay. We don't get to keep it. No commission. No commission on those guys. You're just doing it to be nice. Yeah. Arizona, we get to sit on a committee. We can bring projects there and help pick projects that are going to be funded. So Builder Foundation, for example, might be a part of a guzzler project in Arizona. Well, we not only will sit on that committee. Our volunteers probably are installing that guzzler. Okay.

So that's how we work. And in Nevada, it goes into more of a pot that they select the projects. A heritage account. Yeah. Yeah. A heritage account. And then Utah is the unique one. We keep 10% for us. 30% goes immediately back to the division. Okay. We hold 60% in a restricted account. Okay. That's conservation permits. Okay. So we hold that in an account. We can't spend that for anything else other than projects. Okay. The Director of Wildlife Resources signs a project form. I sign it. And then... So it has to be approved by Utah DWR, you guys, a board committee. Yeah. And it goes into the Utah Watershed Initiative, which we were able to fund $1 million in projects last year. Wow. From the funds raised here in Utah. Wow. And so if a Utah Deer Tag sells, do those funds stay in Utah or will you use them across the West? They all...

Every state, when you sell it for that state, it stays in that state. Okay. Yep. Makes sense. Yeah. And so like the Antelope Island Tag, how does that work? Now that's a little unique in that it goes to state parks. Okay. Because parks, the state parks manages the island. Makes sense. The island just burned. Half the island burned this year. They spent $400,000 reseeding the island. Okay. That money was able to buy that seed. Okay. They didn't have that in their budget. Yeah. So that money, we only keep 10% of that and the rest of it goes back, goes into Parks and Rec. Okay. What do you feel like are some of the best projects, most effective projects that you've seen while you've been the director? Well, I can tell you it varies. In Arizona, it's water. It's all about water. Okay. And we do more water projects there than anywhere. Nevada, I know it's water. Yeah. Nevada...

Maybe, and like you said, there's some seeding that needs to happen. We've done some real rehab of fires. And as you get north, it's more pinyon juniper removal. It's more forest management. It's, you know, rehabbing springs. An interesting project that you never think of is the Charles Russell Wildlife Management Area in Montana is huge. They had a barbed wire fence that was a migration bear deer to antelope and mule deer. Yeah. And our guys went out and rolled up 40 miles of fence. Wow. Yeah. I mean, barbed wire, we got these rollers, these automatic rollers. Yeah. And they did that. Another neat project, a couple of states, Montana and North Dakota, is public access. We just opened 20,000 acres of public access in North Dakota. Hunters can go into this private ranch and their neighbors are watching. There's 30,000 more acres sitting there.

If that's successful and as hunters, we don't ruin that opportunity, we can open up 50,000 acres to public access. Wow. Because North Dakota is private land. Yeah. And so, you know... There's a lot of things going on. A lot of things going on. A lot of things going on. A lot of things going on. We do... Every state has different issues. Yeah. You know? And so, one size doesn't fit all. Yeah. You know? And so, we just have to... You know, my first visit to Montana, I was talking to our volunteers. And of course, here I came out of Utah and I was talking habitat, habitat, habitat. And the first person raised their hand and they said, I have a question. And I said, what's that? And he says, we have plenty of habitat in Montana. We want some deer. We just don't have access. We got these guys... Or access. Yeah. We don't have any access. I know. I've heard that about Utah.

That's why I say that is, you know, people say, well, we got plenty of habitat. We just want some deer. And there's a lot of moving factors to getting more deer. Exactly right. You know? A, people want to still hunt deer every single year. Yeah. But... And yet, you know, they... Anyway, you want higher populations, but you want to keep hunting them and not lose your hunting privileges. Yeah. You know, every single year. And so, there's lots and lots of changes. Of course, we've got weather that we've been talking about. Absolutely. Yeah. There's just a hundred different variables. Although, I must say, you know, with the exception of this winter, super, super happy with the results we've had the last four or five years here in Utah, at least. Yeah. Well, the Mule Deer Working Group puts out their biannual status of mule deer and black-tailed deer.

The one they just put out before this winter showed every state on an uptick in their population over the last four or five years. Yeah. Except Wyoming. And they've got some CWD issues that had no virus issues in fawns that is causing mortality. But everybody was on an uptick. We're really all holding our breath to want to see what the spring counts show. I've heard a lot of people say that, you know, even though we were scared, but maybe the winter kill's not as bad as we all once thought. And I think they went into the winter so good in shape. There's a few areas. Jackson Holes had like 400 inches of snow. Cody and some of those areas, they're going to take it. Gunnison Basin was really bad in Colorado, but I think now they've opened up with this milder winter. They were actually feeding more to keep them off the highway than feeding them because they were in bad shape.

So how can the average sportsman get involved, Miles, and just donate his time? And like some of these things I see, you know, you guys will post or somebody will post on Instagram or Facebook or something about a, you know, a mule deer project or a capture or different things. And I kind of want my kids involved in those. But I'm also, you know, I don't, I guess I've just, I'm not involved quite enough to know when those things are happening. How can somebody know when those things are happening and the help that you need? Well, one of the things, all our local chapters in our states or our state chapters have a Facebook page. And when those things that come up, like we're Hayward trapping Saturday and this is like a Wednesday, so subscribe to our local, your local Facebook page for, or for our, because we always link those to a mule deer Facebook page. Yeah.

And when you become a member, we send e-blasts out to people and say, Hey, we got this project coming up. We need your help. Okay. And so we try to communicate and then we've got, we've got follower, 10,000 followers on Instagram. Yeah. We got 5,000 on, on Twitter. We're trying to build that up. It's the way everybody communicates now. It is. So if you, if you subscribe to our account, to mule deer, you're going to figure some stuff out. Just open your eyes. There's opportunity. There's opportunity. Yeah. To involve our kids and just be a, make it a family activity or whatever. Yeah. And it's everything from, from planting bitter brush to helping tear out an old fence to building a guzzler or helping on things like deer trapping. Our volunteers manned the feeding stations here in Utah. That's great. I mean, that was almost a hundred percent volunteers. Yeah. Wow. Yeah.

Well, that's awesome. I just want to encourage everybody out there listening, definitely become a, you know, a member of the mule deer foundation. It's one of those things that we are coursework critical of different organizations and we all have opinions on how things should be run and different management practices of division wildlife offices. But, but overall I've got to say, you know, I've, I've been pleasantly impressed with the, with some of the strides we've made and we just got to keep working toward that. And we do it with people and we do it with support and help and, and just got to work together. So anyway, just want to say thanks again, Miles for, for joining us here on this podcast. Want to throw a little shout out to Under Armour. Really appreciate them for the sponsoring of the Epic Outdoors podcast and all that they

do for our company, as well as hunting and conservation across the West. So anyway, thanks again, Miles. Looking forward to it. Let's do it again.