EP 35: Staying on Your Feet with Jim Winjum of Kenetrek

When you have blistered up sore feet, it cripples a guy fast. Every single person's foot is different. The shape of the heel, the size of the arch. Anything to do with Western big game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody, Jason Carter here and Adam Bronson with the Epic Outdoors podcast. We've got an awesome guest on the line, a guy that we've known for many, many years, Jim Wengem of Kinetrek Boots. We're way excited to visit with him about his affiliation here in the industry and some of his different hunts that he's been on. He's a well-accomplished hunter and, of course, knows the industry inside and out. Anyway, looking forward to that. Before we get started, I'd like to thank Under Armour for sponsoring the Epic Outdoors podcast and working with us on a variety of different projects. They're a super good partner of ours and we sure appreciate them and their support of the hunting industry. Anyway, Jim, you on the line? I am. Awesome. Well, we sure appreciate you spending an hour or so here with Adam and I.

We just kind of, as we approached you, we definitely wanted to do a podcast with a guy like yourself. You've got a lot of experience in the hunting industry. You've been in it for years and years and years and built a lot of different products for hunters as well as hunted all across the West and, of course, a lot of different places. And so, anyway, you've got a wealth of knowledge and we just sure appreciate you spending some time with us. Yeah, happy to do it. So, anyway, let's start, I guess, maybe with some of your background of your hunting history and kind of what brought you to this point where you're making a living in the hunting industry. Of course, you're doing very well at it. But, you know, what brought you to this point? Like your childhood and just where you were raised in hunting all your life? Or what brought you to this point?

Yeah, I mean, basically, you know, being a kid from Montana, you know, like Canna Trick has two founding partners and myself. So there's three of us and two of us are hunting partners. We actually grew up a block away from each other, didn't know each other as kids. Yeah. But that was in the community of Great Falls. And basically, I grew up hunting and fishing my whole entire life. You know, I spent a lot of time with my father. I can remember even as a little kid running down pheasants and things like that. Crazy. And fly fishing, I mean, at the age of 10, you know, that type of thing. So I just always had a love for the outdoors and wild places. You've been mostly in Montana most of your life or all your life, Jim? Yeah, all my life. I mean, as far as I moved was from Great Falls to Bozeman.

I went to MSU and studied engineering and basically came out of there and then had a whole career at another company called Schnee's Boots and Shoes. I don't know if you remember them. Oh, yeah. You know, spent a whole career there and basically designing their pack boot at the time, their pack boot footwear and marketing and, you know, kind of wore a lot of hats. That was another small company. When you say a whole career there, you know, how many years are, you know, on products? Almost 19 years that I was there. Wow. That's crazy. And they sold that company and, you know, we basically had these two partners that were in one in one ear and one in the other ear for about 10 years before that saying, you need to go out and do your own thing, you know. Yeah. So when that opportunity, that sale came, that was kind of the door open a little bit for you? Yeah, it was. I just recognized it.

I mean, it was an agonizing decision because, of course, the guy who bought Schnee's, you know, they continue on today. And he offered me, you know, a really lucrative reason to stay. And I was just like, you know, if I don't try now. And I agonized. I prayed over it. And my wife was incredibly supportive at the time. And she's like, you know, just don't make the decision that you're going to be miserable down the road. Yeah. And that kind of clarified it for me. And I thought, well, you know, the biggest risk is not trying and failing. It's to not have tried. Not even try at all. Yeah, exactly. Regretting that when I'm 60 or 70. And so, basically, I mean, of course, you said you got a, you know, degree in engineering. I mean, did you feel like that helped you as far as the design of the boots? I mean, or. Oh, yeah. Yeah, no question.

I mean, I've used, you know, they say it's kind of funny in engineering. I mean, you only use it for a certain period of time. And then you kind of move into administration typically because you don't know as much as the new kids coming out of school. And that especially applies today. It's like good grief. Yeah. I mean, I feel like I'm so old that I was using slide rules. Maybe not quite, but it's close. Do you at least have a smartphone, Jim? I do. I do. All right. All right. So, roughly what year was that when you decided with some of these encouragement from eventual partners to break out and form your own business? Yeah, we actually, the formation of the company, of course, that's quite a process, you know, but the formation of the company was actually May 5th of 2005, if you can believe that. Five, five, five. Wow. That's easy to remember.

You know, we didn't sell anything the whole first year. It feels like yesterday. It does. I know it. I mean, too. It won't be long and you're going to be knocking on 19 years with this new company, Jim. Yeah, exactly. Then we can call it two full careers. Crazy. It's just shocking how fast the time goes. But anyway, we, you know, we decided to make the jump and, of course, we didn't sell anything for the whole first year because, you know, everything that I had done at Schnee's was pretty proprietary to them. Yeah. And I didn't want to just be an also-ran either. So, I really spent a lot of time on the design table and kind of looked at, okay, well, all of the things that we had accomplished there. And that was quite a, I mean, and I still have a lot of respect for what I did there. And that line, that boot line remains intact today. I mean, it's still an outstanding product mix.

And I was able to restart. You know, it's not too often that you get the opportunity to reset. Like, if you had to do it over again, what would you do differently? Yeah. And that's a big opportunity. Yeah. And so, you know, I was able to, I was able to basically restart and do it again with the knowledge that I had gained, you know, over doing it the first time. So, so we were better in some ways, still made our share of mistakes, but we didn't sell a boot for the whole first year. And I think the second year we, the only ones we sold were to our family. Yeah. Well, meaning you were just in the design phase. So the first, you spent a year, you spent a year just building your product, like just designing your product or building. Designing the product. Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's a big process.

And then, you know, ranging because a lot of what we produce, it isn't actually domestically produced. And so it's relationship with factories and a lot of travel and, you know, even though sometimes they seem obvious to me, you know, to the factory in Italy or Thailand or wherever we're working with, it's not obvious to them. And so that communication can be a big hurdle to overcome. You have to really lay down a really hopefully clear understanding with them is this is, this is an exact, when I tell you this is what I want, this is really what I want. Don't deviate and improvise. I can't tell you how you guys have the conversation. Do what I ask you to do. No, listen to me. Listen to me. Do not improvise and put styrofoam here and there just to make it lighter because you think that's a good thing. Yeah, cheaper is not necessarily better. That's the truth. Yeah.

Well, I remember, you know, I don't know. I wish my boots had a serial number on them because I might have had like boot number 101 or something. I mean, I'm sure the first 100 set went to the family and friends. But, you know, I remember my first set and it was like, I mean, I wore them out and then had to resole them and wore them out again. Oh, yeah. You know, and they fit just unbelievable. Unbelievable. And it did feel like you somewhat revolutionized the sheep hunting boot or at least the mountain boot. Yeah, no question. No question. Was that version, I don't know, I know today's mountain extreme version, was that one of the first designs? It's probably morphed a little bit since the very first, but was that kind of your first boot or was it something else? We actually started more in the pack boot side, you know.

And so we, you know, what Tana Trek is, is different to different people. So maybe to your audience, you know, we're more known for our mountain boots and that's a core part of our company. But we also have the whole, you know, the whole what I call pack boots, which is a rubber bottom, heavy insulated. Snow. For super cold temperatures, that type of boot. We have a whole other part of the company that is in that area as well. Probably a big, you know, outfitting or farming and ranching world. Correct. Probably those are very big in that, right? Yeah, exactly. Well, in Montana, like where you're from. And then colder weather, you know, we don't do a lot down south, but we're more northern for that. You know, it's kind of above the snow line, so to speak. Well, down here in Utah, as far as we ever knew, you only ever did the mountain extremes. Right.

And then up there in Montana, as far as any of them guys know, you know, you're doing those pack boots because you guys live in that crazy, crazy weather. Yeah, exactly. So, well, that's great. Well, so, like tell me, like the name Kinetrek. Just tell me about the word Kinetrek. Why did you name your company that? What brought that to your mind or how'd that come about? Yeah, we, you know, the name Kinetrek, basically I had a really good patent attorney and trademark attorney that gave us some pretty sage advice in the beginning. And, you know, I had come up with some other names and had a whole marketing strategy and all of that. She's like, no, you know, you're going to get sued right off the bat. You're too close to somebody else. I'm like, you know, that's the one part of the experience that I didn't have. Yeah.

And so she said, you need to basically create the word because you'll own it. And then, you know, that could become the most valuable thing that you do. Yeah. She said, I know it's hard, but you need to do it. Well, you know, so we embarked on this, you know, obviously with the hunting and, you know, because I knew that's where I wanted to head. And we created, I mean, I'm serious, we created 50 or 100 words that don't exist, you know, in the human language. And you would type them in on Google and they're a different company or a drug or nothing like a degree. So anyway, we finally, we finally came up with the Kinetrek. And basically it was Kena was Scottish, which is one of my partners. And that's his heritage. And that means to have knowledge. And then Trek, of course, is South African for, you know, to have a difficult journey, in other words.

So to have knowledge of a difficult journey. And so it just kind of all fell into place almost like magic. Yeah. That's a cool story. We have a similar story just, you know, coming up with a name for a company. Of course, Adam and I, John, Chris, and everybody here was just, you know, could not figure out what to name Epic. And anyway, it's amazing how much time that takes. Oh, it's a big process. And you look at any of the names of these companies, you know, Pepsi. What is Pepsi? You know, and I mean, where did they come up with that name? And so it's not, a lot of times, you know, I don't know that it's much about the name. It's just they obviously associate Kinetrek now with what they know it is. But it started out as nothing. It made up word, you know. Yeah. Correct. And you turned it into what it is. That's pretty correct. Anyway.

What was your, like some of your initial, I mean, obviously to be successful and all that, but what were some of your initial goals when you decided to start this company? What niches or how broad did you envision wanting Kinetrek to be? Well, my heritage, you know, is the heart, like I say, that love for the outdoors and that, you know, it's probably the iconic trip, you know, would be the 10-day backpack sheep hunt, you know, where you have everything that you need to survive. And, you know, that's, it's not that I don't love and do other hunting as well. I do. But that one just has, you know, a special place and your equipment is so incredibly important because when that plane flies away, there's nothing like that feeling. It's like, well, forget anything, you know, because it's your on your own, you know, and they just cover so many miles.

I mean, you know, like I can remember my first sheep hunt way back and, you know, getting the letter from the outfitter that said, bring good gear. You know, it's like, okay, what does that mean? You know, it's not really defining much, but also saying that expect to walk 10 miles a day in the mountains. And I'm thinking, 10 miles a day, that sounds like a lot. He probably doesn't mean that. I'm like, yeah, he didn't. It was more like 15 to 20. Every day. I mean, just unbelievable the amount of distance that you cover. And so me, my heritage is that I have this love for the mountains, but I'm a tall guy, and I have horrible bad feet, really narrow, bony feet, blister terribly. And so I'm definitely, my love is not what my physique is set for, right? I always tell my guys right away, I'm like, there's a reason you don't see giraffes in the mountains, right? I mean, it just doesn't work.

Yeah. So anyway, you know, through a lot of pain and torture and trying to find a boot that would fit my foot with better comfort, I started to realize that, you know, European feet are maybe a different shape or, you know, some of the European boots, their quality is just outstanding, you know, as far as what they produce. But they aren't necessarily geared for North American hunting. And so that's where I really recognize the difference between those two. Okay. And really try to work together to create a better boot. Like you say, I appreciate you saying revolutionizing the industry because I feel like in a lot of ways we did that. Yeah. Well, I think that's, you know, I think that's been obvious, you know, especially the mountain hunters and guys that Adam and I are dealing with on a regular basis.

And so, you know, but we were kind of, you know, wondering, like, obviously you're going to build boots, but like, you know, like, you know, and your initial goal was to basically, you know, build the best sheep hunting type boot or maybe pack boot or whatnot. But as you go forward, do you have, do you, what are some akin to without, you know, you know, spilling the beans, so to speak? Like, what are some of the goals you might have? I mean, have you obtained those goals or is it something you, obviously you've, you've got yearly and annual goals maybe to meet sales wise. But what are, you know, is it something, are you going to move into different facets or? Yeah, we did, you know, we definitely, when you start the company, you know, you kind of, you try to be, you know, begin with the end, you know. In mind, but that doesn't always come out the way you think it will.

So you, you know, in order to be successful in business, like you, you make your best estimate and you bring your product to market, but then you have to let the customers kind of drive you. And to have that feedback with our customers, that's been probably one of the strongest things that, that we have going for us as a company. Like a lot of our boots are rebuildable. Yeah. And so we work closely with a, with a repair shop that we don't own, but they're actually in our same building. And I, I mean, I can't even tell you how many boots we rebuild annually. And I absolutely love, that's, that's one of the, my favorite things to do is to go and look at the, this is where these boots come when they die. Right. When they need to be. The knowledge that I gain from that, from those repair racks, when they come in, you cannot imagine what our customers do to our, to our boots.

I mean, their, their, their, those are sticking out the end. They've worn them like, you know, chainsaw accidents. You just can't even imagine what they do. I hate to break it to you, but the better business model is to have those boots thrown in the garbage and buying new boots. I know it. I know it. I know it. And the erotic thing is we don't make any money. Yeah. They do, but, but it keeps your, but it keeps your foot, your boot on their foot when it still leaves. They still think of it as kind of trick. It does. And the other thing is we get the feedback. Like I'm able to go out and look at this boot. You know, you have this boot that they're, they're approaching $500, you know, at retail cost. Yeah, they are. Yep. And you look at that boot and you say, well, you know, where is that boot going to fail? Well, you don't really know.

I mean, you don't intentionally design a boot to fail, but until you actually see thousands and thousands of pairs come in, you can't really identify what are the weak points. And so, Adam, you had asked earlier, is the mountain extreme the same? It's not. I mean, it's like I change it constantly. I guess the way that you would, you would probably describe me is, is engineering perfectionist, right? And so I drive the factories absolutely insane. I remember one year he came and said to be, you know, the main factory guy that we deal with. He said, can we just not have any changes for a year? Just let us make some money and produce a bunch of boots. It's like, no, we can't. If I can find a better way to do something, you know, we're going to do that. Yeah. And we don't always get it right, but we, it's not for lack of trying.

Well, and there's also, you know, you've been in business for, what is that, 12 years, based on my rudimentary math. But things, technology changes and materials, material changes, whether it be rubber or leather and everything else that goes into boots. It all changes just like any other gear we have. Our packs don't look like they used to and clothes don't look like they used to. So, yeah, what was, hey, this is perfect. This is the boot I want. You guys are doing a knock-up job. 18 months later, you're like, all right, we're stripping the sole off and we're going to redo new rubber. And they're like, what do you mean? That was perfect 18 months ago. And that's in everything. That's in the chemistry and the adhesives, you know, thermoplastic, you know, counters. There's so many parts inside of the boot that you really don't see.

And the ironic thing is that all of the boots, if you take a picture of them, they all kind of look the same. Sure. But they don't feel the same and they certainly don't perform the same, especially down the road, you know, when you get the durability factor involved as well. Tell us a little bit, so not to backtrack too far, but basically your engineering boots, 2005, you're cranking, you're trying to build the basic product. But as we all know, I mean, there's a, you know, there's a basement in SHOT Show that, you know, is full of products, good products, but without the proper marketing, you know, they may not last more than two or three years. And some of those companies have beat the odds and, of course, are doing well. But you've got to have a good product, but you also have to have good marketing. Like, how have you done that? Are you the marketer? Do you hire that?

Or how do you do that? You've got to wear a bunch of hats. You've got an engineering degree. You do, especially in the beginning, right? When you're a small company, like I say, you know, we started as an employee of one, me, right? And so very quickly I'm like, okay, I'm over my head. We need an employee two. Yeah. We need an employee 10 and we're at one. Yep. Yeah, exactly. So anyway, we're, I think we're just hiring our 16th, 17th employee and we have a whole sales force as well that's out there, you know, independent. And, and again, that comes into the strength of relationships that you have and, and to not try to reinvent the wheel and to go to where the expertise lies. Yeah.

But also to, to not be afraid to, to say, hey, that, you know, even though that's the norm of, of how, you know, somebody operates maybe in advertising or in catalog layout or something like that, to not be afraid to go against the grain as well when it's necessary. Yeah. And so for us, it was really that story, you know, to have the, you know, because two of us have, I mean, we've been very blessed over the years. I mean, just like, we just look at each other and we're just like, really that, I mean, you remember. No. Jason, when I drew the two deserts. No, yeah. One year. We told. How often did that happen? We still, we still throw your name out. Oh, yeah. That guy, you know, that it can happen, you know, when people say. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I really think about it. Yeah. I think I was counting up the other day and, well, I actually just drew a mountain goat. I'm taking Montana this year.

Did you? Congratulations. Awesome. I'm just like, seriously? It's my type of service. Keeps on coming. Killing big deserts, killing 200-inch meelies. Of course, we need to slow that down a little bit for you there. Leave a few of them out there. But, yeah, you've done incredibly well. And, of course, that helps. You're in a hunting industry. It does help. It helps people. People know when they know you're out there doing it and then you're building a hunting product. I mean, that's part of marketing. Yes. That's absolutely. And it gives us a little bit of credibility as well, you know. Absolutely. Yeah. That we're not just some guy on a design table in a lab coat, you know. I mean, it's like we really are using and suffering right alongside of, you know, our customer. Well, and you and I know one of your other owners, I assume you're a friend about Bob.

Both of you guys are avid big game hunters and sheep hunters. And so, yeah, anything, I mean, looking in one of your catalog, you know, 2002, I guess that's you saying when you killed your first dull sheep kind of started. That was before you had your own business. And you're actually right. You can't, I mean, you using your stuff, you're going to be your own worst critic because your name is on what you're selling. And so, if something's not performing up to par for you or Bob or you guys, you're not going to want to sell it. So, I think that has to go. You know, like I said, you're wearing a lot of hats. But because of some of those hats you're wearing, you're making a better product too. You're the R&D guy out there wearing it on the sheep hunt, you know, the first version. So, maybe I guess just we can talk about some of your hunts. Maybe we'll put that off just a minute.

But tell us about, you know, for me, you know, I came on, got, you know, involved with Jason and different businesses about the same time you guys started. And so, I've used a lot of your boots for the last 12 years and really use them on a lot of my, all my sheep hunts and, you know, Desert Southwest. Yeah, you have some of those boots that come back to us. I have. The ones that are supposed to go in the garbage. I have. So, we sell new boots. That's right. The problem is, is when your foot fits that boot perfect, you don't want to break another one in. It's like just re-rubber it and send it back to me. And so, I've done that. You bet. And now I have, you know, a bit of a rotation. Some that are the non-insulated, you know, like the Desert Guides that I use a lot. And then the Mountain Guides, which I probably use more now than I use the Hard Scrabble. Just, I have weaker ankles.

I played a lot of basketball in my days. Sprained a ton of ankles. And so, I, that boot is a little bit sturdier for me or just fits me. And I don't roll them in the mountains as much with that. But talk to us a little bit about, everybody's feet are different. And you alluded to it a little bit earlier about your own feet. Boots, especially when you, and I would say you're somewhat of a custom. You're not a, you know, you're not buying, you know, Tony Lama's off the shelf at Walmart or just some, you know, hey, one size fits all. Now, everybody's feet are a little bit different. But tell us what you think each hunter should be looking for and how you think your boots can help meet the needs for a wide variety of, I guess in this case, western hunting conditions.

Yeah, I mean, you know, like we've done a lot of analysis on this over the years and trying to, you know, there's so much information. And trying to boil it down to what makes the best advice. And to me, like, if you're trying to determine what's the best boot for a particular hunt or a particular hunting activity, number one always is terrain. You know, like what, like, it's a completely different boot to, you know, kill whitetails in Iowa from a tree stand than it is to go on a stone sheep in British Columbia. Right. I mean, just different needs there. So the terrain, then next comes the temperature. And then finally, the required durability. Like when we're talking about that hunt that you may have to go 15 miles without trail every day in the mountains versus, you know, one mile up to a glassing point. You know, I mean, the durability really comes into play as well.

But once you kind of make that decision, then to me, you're going to be looking for what boot fits your foot the best. Because I'll be honest with you, like, obviously I'm biased towards the Kenetrek mountain boots because all the reasons that we've kind of talked about, you know, all of the energy and effort that we've put into, you know, the components and the design and all of those things. But there are other good boots out there. And the most important thing that you can do is find the boot that fits your foot the best. It's like fingerprints. Every single person's foot is different. And, you know, that doesn't have to do just with the length, the width. It has to do with the shape of the heel, the size of the arch, you know, the overall height of the toe box, basically. Like how fat is your foot? All of these things come into play. And everybody's boots fit differently.

And so that, you know, that is a really important, basically a feature in a process is to recognize that, you know, you can have your guy you really look up to or a guide or something like that. What they wear doesn't necessarily mean that's what you should wear. Right. Because it could fit them perfectly, but for you it could be an absolute disaster. Yeah. You definitely need to try on a bunch of different boots and find the one that fits your foot the best. And once you do that, there's some things that you need to do as far as what I call coming up with the perfect fitting recipe. And this is where a lot of times people, you know, they don't go the extra mile, so to speak, to get that boot to fit properly. And that means, okay, so you've got this boot, you've got the right size for your foot, but then you need to address what are the footbeds that are in that boot.

Does that footbed fit your arch, right, the longitudinal arch? And do you have a high arch? Do you have a low arch? Does it cup your heel properly? Then the overall volume needs to be addressed next, you know, with your sock combination, right? Do you want to wear a liner sock and a heavier sock? Are they performance socks? Do they utilize merino wool? All of those things come into play as well. Yeah. Well, I think you make a lot of good points there. You know, when you first started talking, you were talking about terrain, and it reminded me, kind of a funny story, but, I mean, I was taking a guy, and I can name him on here because he's such a good dude, but I was taking Adam Kearney in Nevada, and we went to the base of this mountain. We looked straight up, and it's about 1,000 feet. Of course, I'm lacing up. I'm getting a good boot. Yeah, you are.

You know, and sometimes you just wear, you know, a lighter, like my feet are hot, and I'm in 105-degree weather a lot, and so I'm not even wearing a lighter. I don't wear a tennis shoe that day. It depends on the day, you know, and I'm lacing up, and he's like, you know, I can see he's not going to lace up with a good boot, you know, and so I'm getting ready to go, and we're getting geared up, and he's like, I'm like, hey, you going to wear those shoes? He's like, yeah, those are the shoes. You know, I think I'll be fine. I'm like, all right, and, you know, about halfway up of the 1,000-foot climb, and then, of course, all the rough rocks went through it. By the time we got back, he was hammered, you know, and not necessarily his legs weren't hammered. It was his feet, and when your feet are hammered, you're hammered, you know,

and so I thought you made a great point there, and then on temperature, you know, that's huge. Adam talked about, you know, his uninsulated versus insulated, and I'm one of those guys. I very rarely wear an insulated boot, and if it's insulated, it might be a 400 or something on a lion hunt. I just, I've got hot feet, you know. Right. And it all makes a huge difference, and, of course, you've come a long ways from 2005. Now you're coming up, you know, obviously offering a variety of different boots with the desert conditions, mountain conditions, and whatnot, and so maybe, you know, take a minute and just go through a couple of the different models and what you think they're good for as far as, you know, desert versus the mountain boot. Yeah, like if you think about our mountain boot, you know, we started with the mountain extreme for that classic north backpack sheep hunt, you know,

and that's still our number one seller by far, but some people prefer, like you say, they prefer a little bit less insulated boot, so then it grew into the non-insulated, and then on the flip side of that, we have guys that are, you know, going to, for Marco Polo, like me, for example. Yeah. That's one of my latest trips is coming up this fall for that. Wow. But that's brutal cold temperatures, and so that, we came up with 1,000 grams to cover that, you know, still give you the same support and comfort that the original mountain extreme does, but in those brutally cold environments. So you build a new boot. We don't know it. Did you build a new model for this hunt that you're going on this fall? Yeah, it's our 1,000 gram mountain extreme. Must be nice to own a boot company. You just make whatever kind of boot you want, depending on the hunt you're going on. That's awesome. Good.

Well, that's a good price. Sometimes the first one isn't the best one, though. Well, you're the guinea pig, I guess, in this case. Yeah, exactly. And so then you do have the desert? Yeah, so the desert, same thing there, you know, like most of the boots have the waterproof membrane, and most of the people require that or really want that to keep their feet dry. But in the desert environment, that waterproof membrane, it always breathes, but it doesn't breathe as well as if it's not there. Sure, yeah. So we came up with the desert guide, which has incredible durability, but just has leather, which breathes that much better. So when you're talking about that real hot-footed problem, you know, and you're looking at 90 degrees and you have to have the support, you know, if you have a membrane, you're just going to over-sweat that membrane.

Yeah, that's the boot that I use probably 75% of my year, mainly because we're doing a lot of desert sheep hunts. And that's what I really found. I noticed a big difference on my hot feet. When your feet get hot, they get really, I mean, they're always going to sweat, but when they get ultra hot and then they get tender, you got to stop more, get them dried out, get the pruning, for whatever lack of a better word, gone away so they're not so soft and tender, susceptible to blisters and all that. Right, you bet. And then the same version of... Yeah, that's another thing about that I didn't mention was about break-in, too, that especially with a mountain boot, you know, it's a stiff, supportive boot and you need that stiffness and that support for walking in the rocks and that rugged terrain and side hilling. I mean, there's almost never anything level.

I can remember oftentimes I'm on a trail, like I'll actually go back and do a flat spot again just for the treat of it, you know? Yeah. But anyway, it's like to break the boots in. I can remember years ago on one of the sheep hunts, we were getting picked up out of the Northwest Territories and a guy came in and we dropped, you know, they were doing kind of the taxi thing, you know, and dropped the guy off at a lake and he, no kidding, pulled out a brand new pair of cows out of the box. That's going to be trouble. And I'm just like, oh man. You just, I mean, there's just no way that that, the odds of that working out in his favor are like nil. 10% that it's going to go, lace him up and you'll have no problems probably. He's just going to have bulletproof feet. I mean, it doesn't break in either. And the thing is, to me, like sometimes I get in trouble because I almost chastise hunters

sometimes that look like if you go and you get all blistered up, right? Like on a hunt or something like that. Yeah. It's kind of like shame on you because you should have known that that boot did not fit your foot properly way in advance. Or yeah, you didn't have the right socks. It just tells you that you did not really put the effort in to break that boot in. Yeah. And it's a process. I mean, it's toughening your foot up. That's right. I was just going to say that, you know, I, I've been out doing some spring turkey and bear hunting and that, and my feet, Jason and I, we sit in an office for about five or six months of the year. Not by choice. Not by choice, but you know, that's what we do here. We're researching, we're writing a magazine, we're consulting all that. And so our feet right now are not tough.

And, um, and, and I noticed that you're, you, when you're out starting about now, we're working trail cameras or scouting and everything else, all that. You build calluses up a little bit thicker layers of skin. And I, you know, in this, in the spring, I can get a blister in a weirdest spot in between my toes somewhere where I've never seen one. And it's just because they're, they're baby feet. You were even complaining about a couple of back pains the other day. Oh yeah. You get 40 plus, you get north of 40 and yeah, I mean, it's, uh, every day you wake up it's a good day. Yeah, that's right. But, but you brought that up. I would say his buddy, just, buddy, just wait till 50. Yeah. That's what I've been told. It doesn't get better. No. So, but, but along that lines that I, I, I agree. Cause I, I take a lot of sheep hunters and I, and I see that.

And that's the number one thing I tell people. Yeah. You want to, you want your legs in shape. You want your legs hard when you get on a sheep hunt, but you need to use what you're bringing both in the form of, um, whether it be your trekking poles, your pack, your gun, all that. But your boots, if they have their legs under them, meaning they're hardened, you know, some of them live at sea level and they can't climb mountains and not, but if they get them ready and their boots are broken and used, we almost never have a problem. And if you have happy feet, you have a happy hunter. Like you can get sore legs and you know, but it feels good to feel like you worked hard. But when you have blistered up sore feet, you, it cripples a guy fast. Yeah. So. And there's, the sad thing is there's no solution at that point. No, no. There's nothing that you can't do.

Can't take ibuprofen for blistered feet. I mean. Run out of duct tape. So. But my feet, one thing I was going to bring up too, along those lines is, is, and maybe you can talk a little bit about this. Partly it's probably going through that aging process and maybe everybody's feet don't do this, but I, mine have, I, I, I guess my arch is flattened or something as I've gotten older. My foot's gotten a little longer. I wear like 11 and a half now. I never, 11 fit me forever. And I'm talking, you know, whether I buy tennis shoes or whether I buy your boots, I'm 11 and a half now and I don't need any break in anymore. So something's changed even throughout 10 or 20 years of your life, your foot changes to where I used to have to break them in or else I'd get blisters. Now I don't. And now I need a half size longer on every shoe I buy. Is that common? I mean, I'm not a podiatrist, but.

It's almost a hundred percent. I mean, it just is, uh, uh, the way I look at aging, what my, my, in layman's terms, it's a slow, steady progression to the ground. I don't mean just your arch. It's everything. You're getting shorter. You're, you're six, three. Now you're six, two. Now you're six, one. Jeez. It's fairly depressing, but it's, it's just a part of life. And you think about what your foot, you think about the pounding that your foot takes, the anatomy of your foot and that arch and all of the ligaments and musculature that, that needs to be, to hold that up. Like, uh, over a period of time, it's just inevitable that those collapse. I mean, there's a reason why the average podiatrist, you know, their, their average customer or patient, you know, that they see is, is definitely over 50, you know, and they're doing custom

cast to try to get that foot back into its natural position and support it because the foot just can't hold itself up anymore. Yeah. I see young kids, teenagers, teenage girls in particular running around with flip flops all the time. It's like, that's the worst thing. Like, do that while you can because, I mean, there's just no way. Yeah. You can't do it later. Before we, uh, well, before we leave the subject to blisters, like, you know, obviously, you know, you need breaking in your boots and, and whatnot can help you and lacing them up tight and whatnot, but is there, uh, is there any other tips you can give us, you know, and the listeners out there on, you know, avoiding how to prevent blisters and, and work with blisters once you get one? Yeah. I mean, the, the, the biggest thing is, is, uh, like you had alluded to it earlier is keep your feet dry.

I mean, it's really important to keep your feet dry. And so to have a really good wicking sock, to have a really good fitted sock, because, you know, when you put on a sock and it feels good when it's dry, that's one thing, but now completely saturate that with, with perspiration and see, does, does it lose its shape? You know, does it have the right amount of, of elastic and spandex and, and the right heel pocket? So it stays in shape, you know, to conform to your foot, whether it's wet or dry. Uh, those, those are all important things as well. Like I say, that's part of that whole recipe with the boot, because what you're looking for is maximum performance under these really stringent, difficult conditions. Wow. Well, that's great. And I noticed here in the catalog, one of your latest catalogs, of course, you've been

doing it for quite some time, but, um, looks like you're producing socks. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I mean, that's a, that was a, kind of an obvious, uh, like I say, when we're driven by our customers, that was kind of an obvious one was to, uh, to get into the, the manufacturer of socks. I mean, there's a lot of good sock, uh, plants and manufacturers out there, but, uh, to be able to go in and dabble with those designs and again, create, uh, different thicknesses. And so a lot of what we've done, even though the colors are different, they're basically the same design of sock, but more for a low volume, medium volume, high volume foot. And so that allows you to, uh, perfect the fit of our, our, of our boots for performance, you know, based on the thickness of sock. Uh, and so usually I tell people, a lot of times people want to put on a heavier sock in colder weather.

And it's like, well, that'll actually make the boot colder often because it constricts your circulation and all that. Yeah. And restricts, yeah, recirculation. So, um, a lot of times, especially with the mountain boots, you're looking for performance. And so you want that, that sock to be just the perfect snug fit, not ridiculously tight, but definitely to stop movement. Uh, because like you, you had said to lace up your boots snugly, well, that's part of it as well. Uh, so, uh, all of these things come into play together. But the, again, the biggest thing is you, you have to wear them. I mean, you have to become, uh, your boots have to become an extension of your feet. And the only way to really do that and to find out, you know, what do you need is to be using them in a way in advance of, you know, when that plane flies away and you're in the

middle of the wilderness, that's not the time to figure it out. So, so, um, you know, you talked a little bit about, you know, kind of that colder weather sock, but what do you recommend for a guy that's in 90 plus degrees? Um, the same thing. I mean, it, it, uh, you can still have some merino wool, but typically you're going to want more of a blended sock. I mean, again, you alluded to technology changing and you think of the old, man, you think of the old days, it was cotton tube socks, right? No shape to them. Whatever the sophistication of sock manufacturer today is unbelievable. You know, as far as the blending of the materials, uh, so that they can have durability together with wicking, uh, you know, thermal properties. I mean, it's just amazing what you can accomplish with sock manufacturer today. And there's a lot of good ones. There's a lot of, you're right. There's a lot.

It's a lot. And you're in them so much. I mean, I remember 20 years ago, you'd wear a pair of socks one year and the balls of your feet and the heels were down to the thread, you know, because they would wear out because they just weren't constructed well or blended well enough for that. Now you got. And they were overused because we were in college. Yeah. And we had three pair of socks. That's all we had. We wore them to school and hunting. That's right. So there's a lot of other reasons, but, um, also talk a little bit about. But, and, and this is probably comes down to an individual foot, but when do you, do you always recommend to somebody to start with a liner when they're, when they're trying their new boots out? Like a liner and then a sock? And then a sock? Or what do you do? Or why use it? We still do. We, we, we still recommend a liner.

And the reason that you want the liner is because that typically fits really snug. It's almost like you got to think of a liner as a second layer of skin. And so with blisters, I mean, blisters come from, from foot movement, uh, and then moisture has an effect. And then also it's friction, right? And so that basically it's the heat that's built up from friction. Yeah. So the theory with a liner is that it's like a second layer of skin that the socks slip between the layers and not against your skin. Yeah. And thereby reducing the heat buildup, you know, in those, what would be called a hot spot. Yeah. And those are very, very, you know, and they're not as thin as like women's pantyhose, but just a step above they're thin. And so, I mean, there's a lot of different liners out there and I've used a lot. I I've gone away from them more just simply because I haven't felt, goes back to what I

think, I think I told you. Yeah. My, my, I don't need them. And if I don't need them, it's just another layer of socks. Part of the reason for that, Adam, is because the, the outer sock is so good now. That's probably part of it too. You're right. Yeah. They actually fit. They conform. They don't move around. You know, like you think of the old days, you had to have a liner because you're wearing this big old wool sock or a tube sock or something like that, you know, well, it didn't have any structure to stay in place. And so that thing was moving all over. Whereas now the socks are so good and they're blended fibers as well. So they really do stay in place. So it kind of almost comes down to a personal preference. We have lots and lots of customers that just want to wear one pair of socks and they're perfectly fine to do that. What are you, do you offer liners? Are you selling liners?

Do you know? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. We have a deluxe liner that is, well, obviously I'm biased, but it's the finest liner the world has ever seen. You bet. I wouldn't accept you or expect you to describe it any other way. If you use our liner with our sock, with our boot, you are a happy hunter and we'll kill more stuff. Guaranteed a 40 inch ram. What about mule deer? Let's put it in mule deer terms. 200. Yeah, there you go. 200 inch. What other, you know, just for a minute while we're on some of these products, of course we've talked, you know, you know, I hate to leave. I hate, well, let me back up. Tell me about insoles. You know, I mean, is there, there's been super feet out there and there's all these other different insoles and of course you're making insoles. Talk about the importance of that and how to choose an insole and maybe, you know, what,

what are, what makes insoles different. Versus, yeah. Versus what you just put in your boot. footbed, like when I talk about that recipe, really I address the insole first because the insole is, it's not just volume, it's so structurally important. You know, when, Adam, when you're talking about your collapsing arches, right, it's very common for people to suffer the, you know, foot elongation over time. You know, that that arch basically is collapsing and dropping down. Well, that tells you that you, you know, somebody who has a flat foot doesn't necessarily have the same problem. That's me. Somebody who has a really high arch, somebody who has a high arch, that arch just drops and so then the foot becomes longer and longer over time. So what you need to do is you really need to make certain that you're supporting that arch as much as you can.

And so you want to, like say for example, you, Adam, if you have a higher arch, you may be able to wear a footbed that supports you perfectly and then you stick that in Jason's foot, he, it would be like a torture crime. It kills me. It'd be like he's walking on a tennis ball. So bad. It is. It's terrible. It's incredible pain. Yeah. And so to customize that, that, that bed of the boot, because, because all of the boot, the insole of the boot is basically flat. I mean, they can't have contour because you have to fit everybody with the same boot. So if that makes sense, that's the, that's the adaption between your foot and the, the insole inside of the boot, the bottom of the boot, if that makes sense. So that, that's what you do it with is with the footbed. Yeah. So you don't have to make a $500 boot to fit your perfect foot.

You just pull out the footbed and put in the insole that fits your foot shape, arch, all about the best for 20, 30 bucks. And you, thereby you, you get a more of a customized boot fit. And so this didn't happen for a long time. I mean, you know, in the old days they just used to have boards, right? I mean, maybe people were tougher back then. No, they just didn't hunt as hard. They didn't hunt as hard, Jim. They just didn't hunt as hard. They hunted in, they hunted in cowboy boots. They were wood bottom. Those were tough. Those were tough men back then. Yeah, they were tough, you know. We got a baby our feet. That's right. Quit your whining and saddle up. We're office dwellers. Well, so do you sell, I mean, do they come, so let's just say I buy a boot from you that comes with a, kind of comes with a flat one made for a guy like me and then like Adam would

actually want to order an insole with his boot? No, we actually, again, we actually kind of went against the grain in the industry because the industry basically says, well, you know, if you want to replace a footbed, you would go and purchase a super feed or, you know, a Dr. Scholes or some type of aftermarket footbed and we're just going to put in a low cost alternative. Well, the footbed that they're putting in is like $1.49, you know, is the manufactured cost. It's just terrible garbage, you know, just a flat piece of foam. And they send that out with a $400 pair of boots. And so I'm like, wait a minute, something's wrong with that. And so I kind of thought about, well, the super feed guys basically years and years ago, they came up with, you know, it was a whole bunch of podiatrists that got together on that

project and they came up with what is a arch that fits 75 or 80% of the populace. And that's pretty correct. And so we kind of followed that same thought process and actually put in what I call our 70% of the population footbed standard in our boots. So we were the first company to do that. And so the guys like you then, Jason, we also offer a flatter cushion insole. But instead of just offering the flattest insole, we kind of went for the large majority of people. Does that make sense? Yeah, that totally makes sense. And so if I ordered, let's just say, and I've got your boots, but let's say I ordered a new pair of boots, would I want to order or can I just tell the gal on the phone, hey, you know, this is coming. I'm a flat foot, so throw in a set of the. If I have a flat foot, then we'll automatically put the, you know, that version of the footbed in there.

Still a good quality footbed, but more safe to fit your foot contour. Well, that's awesome. And we sure appreciate that as a consumer. Maybe this is a good point in time just to, you know, maybe quickly tell us, I know you're selling other people's products as well in your catalog, but just tell us, is there other products that you manufacture and sell? Of course, you're doing some of the gators and whatnot, but maybe just take a minute. Yeah, we sell a lot of gators and like our sock line, we've really expanded that. And we've had the hunting gator, the tall gator, which is up below the calf. And that's been a fantastic product for us for many, many years. We really designed that to go over a pack boot, but it works perfectly with the mountain boots as well. I mean, we can't tell you how many gators we've sold over the years.

When I started that project, I thought, you know, we could design a really good gator for hunters, specifically for hunters. And if this, you know, we found out the minimum quantities that you'd have to produce, you know, in order to get one in. And then it was like, okay, here's Christmas gifts for the next decade for the whole family. It just doesn't work. Yeah. No. But anyway, so that's been a successful product for us. And we just launched a new hiking gator, you know, for a shorter, hotter weather safaris in Africa, that type of thing. Just to keep a lot of the grass seeds and stuff like that.

So, well, maybe we can kind of, maybe this is the time to talk about some of your hunts. Of course, you've led on to kind of what couple of the different hunts you're doing this year. But yeah, that's a Marco Polo and a mountain goat. What else you got lined up? Yeah, well, I have a doll sheep that I'm going to the Northwest Territories, but that's not until next year. And I'm trying to, you know, I've never really set out to do this, but that will complete my archery grand slam. That's awesome. I never thought I'd ever be in this position. And I don't even know if I have enough gas in the tank to get it done. What are you talking about? You don't get it done. You keep those things to yourself. As far as the world's concerned, you're the biggest, baddest hunter out there. And I so bad want to retire from sheep hunting, I can't even tell you. You can't.

You're not in the business to retire from rugged dude country. Then you'll start on it with the muzzleloader or something after that. Yeah. Anyway, so that's for next year. And so I thought, well, I have this year off so I can get all fat and happy and take the kids hunting, hunt deer and elk, and just have a good time. And then, you know, so I am going with a friend for archery coos deer in Arizona. Good. Then I drew this mountain goat tag, which is the month of September, and that I have to try with a bow. I'm like, oh, my God. Not really, Jim. That's only self-inflicted pain and misery. You don't have to do it. Self-inflicted misery. Then I have a Sitka blacktail hunt on Prince of Wales. That's like the end of October. And then I threw my name in the hat at the Wild Sheep Foundation show, and it was just funny or sad. It depends on how you look at it.

But I'm sitting in the chair with my partner, Bob, you know, at the end of the show, and I'm like, buddy, I'm a little bit nervous about that Marco Polo hunt. I don't know what I was thinking. He goes, well, how many tickets did you put in there? I said, only about five. He goes, well, for you, buddy, that's a lock. Boom. They called my name. Are you serious? I literally fell out of the chair. He's like, I told you. Jeez. Wow. So when is that? October? When are you doing that? That's November, November 15th. That'll be nice and warm over there about then.

I'm a little bit concerned about the altitude. Yeah, I hear it gets really warm at 16,000. No, I don't think so. Well, that's an adventure, though. That'll be something for us to look forward to. That's a, you know, international sheep. Once in a lifetime. Something that I've not got into yet. I'd like to someday, but that'll be awesome to see how that one pans out for you. You got a big year, sounds like, for sure. Yeah. All I can say is so much for taking the year off. Yeah. Yeah. And that Marco Polo with a bow is going to be incredible. All right. All right. I had one of the guys to ask me, are you going to bring your bow? I'm like, can't go. No. I'm not going to bring that bow. I'm going to bring a long-suit rifle. Yeah. Oh, no. Well, good. Well, what, I know you've done a lot of hunting. Of course, we've kind of led to that. But just maybe, what's your most memorable hunt?

You know, something that was just incredible, maybe on the bucket list and that you have accomplished? I don't know. I mean, that's just such a tough question. You know, like, people always ask me, you know, like, what's your favorite hunt? And my typical response would be the next one. Yeah. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Because they all are, I mean, I actually get probably more of a thrill today out of taking, you know, nieces and nephews to shoot their first cow elk, you know. Yeah. Or just a deer hunt, you know, shoot a mule deer buck. I mean, it's, I don't know. I just have a through and through love for the sport. Yeah. Well, we share that. I get it. And you're right. And I know, well, I'm sure some of your sheep, you know, when you finish your grand slam, that was probably one. And then, you know, maybe next year, I imagine you slip an arrow and a big white ram.

That's probably going to be a special moment. They all are. You remember those sheep punts. And then, like Jason alluded to, I mean, a few years back, you killed a giant mule deer with your bow in Nevada that we all know. Yeah. And we all take notice of things like that because we like mule deer. But they got a soft spot for you, I imagine. Yeah. Oh, no kidding. Yeah. Well, I think you're right. Yeah. And I love it all, too. I mean, I'm not a dedicated, you know, a lot of the guys might criticize me for that. I'm not a super dedicated bow hunter. I love it. It's very difficult, but I still love rifle hunting as well. I mean, shoot, I even like duck hunting, you know, shotgun, pheasant hunting. I mean, I just, I really love it all. And I have an appreciation for each different type of hunting and all of the animals. Well, and Adam and I are the same way. We do everything.

I may be, you know, somewhat, you know, known, I guess, to a degree for mule deer, and he's known for sheep, but he's killed his fair share of deer and elk and all kinds of species, and I'm the same way. And so it's just hunting. We just love hunting. What tag you can get. Yeah. And tell us, you know, we alluded to it, but just for maybe the listeners, in case they're scratching their heads, what two desert sheep tags you drew. Tell us a little bit about that and those two, because that had to be a very special year, I'm sure. Yeah, that was 2004, and I, you know, had applied for many years. I remember going as a fairly young kid, when I was working for Schnee's, we went to the shows, and I remember wandering around there, and this was maybe even early on, you know, before, you know, any of the publications.

You know, the information that's out there now is a lot better than it used to be in that day, but I remember walking around and talking to, you know, some of the, you know, biologist reps and stuff from the different states that were at that show and saying, you mean if I apply for this tag and I draw it, I can come hunt there? I was just completely, completely naive. And they're like, yeah, you draw it, you can. And so I was actually putting in, you know, not using any of the services that are available today and trying to figure out, you know, it's almost like, you know, doing those applications on your own. It's a pretty daunting task. And if you'd have used Epic back then, we would have drawn you three sheep tags, probably. Probably would have. Well, I got my fair share of, you know, rejections.

You know, I can't remember which date it was that rejected me because they got the application two days early. Early. You know, from the Red. I'm like, really? You printed it, I paid you, and you give it back to me, you know? But they didn't let you know it advanced. They waited until the end and you had the Red tab rejection on it. I'm like, oh, that hurt. Oh, geez. But yeah, 2004, actually, the stars all aligned, and I drew both. I drew Nevada first, and that was just, like, unbelievable to me. I remember I was going on a hiking trip, and I was driving back, and we had just sold our house, and we were building another house. So I was taking on that job as my own contractor, you know? And so I was pretty full, you know, at that time. But I remember I got a message from my brother, and he says, all these guys are calling, all

these outfitters, and they said something about Desert Sheep, Nevada. And I seriously almost drove in the ditch, you know? I thought you'd go out and be kidding me. Wow. Then a couple months later, it's like Arizona comes out, and I had drawn to Arizona as well. Unbelievable. Yeah, that's unheard of. And you took one with a rifle and one with a bow, right? Correct, yeah. And I've been really lucky to draw permits, but I'm pretty much known as a last day guy as far as shooting anything. So I've had more than my favorite year. That makes the wife happy. Long marathons.

Well, that's great. Yeah, 2004 was the year I drew Oregon Sheep on the John Day. Yeah. We drew the same year. Yeah, I remember that. Yeah. Wow. But, well, awesome. Well, we sure appreciate you, Jim, spending some time with us, and sure appreciate, you know, what you've done in the hunting industry and all the support you've lent everybody. And you're a friend of many, everybody you come in contact with. You've just got such a great reputation and good personality and way about you. And so we just want to tell you how much we appreciate you as well here at Epic. Yeah, we do. We appreciate that. And you're, you know, obviously we knew each other for about 10 or 12 years now. But, you know, when we were getting Epic up and cranking, you were one of the first to step up and support us. And without hesitation, we really appreciate that and love to help recommend your products

to people that take their hunting out west seriously. So, yeah, thanks for your support. You bet. You bet. I appreciate it. I appreciate what you guys are doing as well. I mean, it's, like I say, none of these services, you know, they didn't exist like they do now, you know, as far as information and assistance. And it really is just incredible. Yeah, it is. And it makes us all better. Competition's good. Oh, yeah. No question. All right. Well, good luck this year. We'll be in plenty of good contact. I know we will. And I just want to wish you the best and continued prosperity in your business. And we're sure going to do our best to help you out. Thank you. I really appreciate it. Okay. We'll talk to you later. See you, Jim. Thanks. Okay. Bye-bye. Here at Epic Outdoors, we produce a hunting magazine, nine issues a year.

The first six issues are state-by-state research-driven issues, breaking down the states, the drawing odds, kill percentages, best places to go, whatever your goals are for that state, whether you should even apply for that state or not. Coming from January through June, we break those down. The rest of the year, we go every other month. Very informative magazine. $100 a year gets you that magazine as well as the ability to call and consult with us consultants. Develop a strategy. Bounce ideas off us. Things like that. Yeah. So with this magazine, you know, it just covers Western big game hunting. That's what we specialize in. That's what we stick to. So the Western states, Canada, Alaska, Mexico, from a big game hunting perspective. So $100 a year. And it should be everything to do with Western big game hunting.

We also offer a full service license application service. If you're too busy, you find yourself missing deadlines or you travel a lot with your work, missing deadlines in some cases will put you years behind drawing a certain tag that you're after. We offer for a maximum of $500. We'll handle all of your Western state applications. We'll incorporate the information you give us. You can be as interactive with us in picking your units as you want. Or you give us a criteria. We can pick your units, match the weapon type, species, states, all those types of things that you're looking for. We do that for a lot of guys. We help them draw a lot of tags. If you find yourself, like I said, too much going on in your life, whether it be business or travel or whatever, you miss deadlines, consider calling us for your license application service needs and be glad to help you out.

With our license application service, of course, one of the big things besides just applying and submitting your license applications is the people doing it. So Adam and I, we touch all the applications and we actually choose the units for you depending on what you're looking for. And that's a big deal. We've done this for many, many years as well as for ourselves. And we've hunted all the Western states. We have quite a bit of experience with everybody here in the office. And this is what we've done for a living for a lot of years. And so anyway, we feel like we offer some of the most knowledgeable consultants and the ability to really choose accurately what you're looking for so you don't waste your points or waste your money and especially waste your time in places that don't really suit you. And so anyway, like Adam said, for a maximum of 500, we can do anything and everything that

pertains to applying for Western Big Game.