EP 36: Making it Happen with Calvin Halladay

We were broke, college kids. Adams hunted Beatty's Butte, I hunted John Day. We'd climb up 2,000 and 3,000 vertical feet in all these different canyons. Anything to do with Western big game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors Podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody, Jason Carter and Adam Bronson here on the Epic Outdoors Podcast, knocking out another one. This one's pretty awesome. This is a guy, up and coming, outfit and business, with Cal Halliday that's representing the business, Sheep Mountain Outfitters. Super excited to have him on here. He's kind of been changing the game a little bit in Oregon, bringing some, you know, excitement. New energy. Yeah. New energy, excitement to a state that hasn't been that exciting in the recent history here, but he's definitely knocking down some great animals. Adam and I have hunted it. We actually are somewhat fond of Oregon, both taking a sheep up there, and so anyway, it's going to be a fun podcast. Before we get into that, we want to thank Under Armour

for sponsoring these podcasts and supporting us here at Epic Outdoors, a super partner of ours, and just appreciate them and all that they're doing for us, as well as the hunting industry. So, with that said, let's get him on the line. What's going on, man? Oh, you know, just wrapping up some last-minute loose ends and then headed back out. Right on. You're not on vacation or something? There's nothing to do in late July or early August. Yeah, Adam and I were talking, figuring you're just out screwing off. There's nothing to do in late July in Oregon, is there? Remember, I'm a young guy. I still got to work for a living. Alright. We know what's going on. We know you're pulling your hair out and babysitting. It's getting to that stressful time right now. Babysitting, yeah. Babysitting rams that like to walk, or what? Oh, God, they're killing me.

Yeah, you lose years off your life when you're, you know, going through these five or six days. I found the first gray hair in my beard the other day, and I just turned 27 last week. It's not a good thing. 27. I don't even remember 27. You remember 27, Bronson? Ah, sometime long ago. I tell people that, and they say, no way you are 27. I'm like, yeah. I'm a 90s kid. 90s, huh? Are you serious? Is 27 part of the millennials? What's the definition of millennial? I was born in 2000. Oh, okay. I was in grade school then, so definitely not. All right, well, cool. Well, let's dive into this thing. Tell us a little bit about, you know, how you got started, what you did as a kid, and then, you know, what kind of drove you to, you know, work in the hunting industry.

Yeah, sure. I think I started out like a lot of people. My dad was a big influence early on, as far as hunting goes, and I got into it. And I tell you, it didn't take long for me to realize that I was kind of, my passion for hunting was a little bit different than, say, my father or his hunting buddies. You know, I remember going to rifle elk camp, and it was more of a vacation away from mom and all the wives, and more of a... Social event. Now the wives want to go, and nowadays we're supposed to take them, and we're jerks. Yeah. So, I mean, at an early, early age, I realized, you know, I had early on success, and it's just because I spent more time in the woods, I didn't understand why we should go back to camp at 10 a.m. and have breakfast and then go back out at 4, you know. Yeah.

So, I stayed out all the time, and pretty early on, I just started killing more elk and more deer, and everybody's going, gosh, this kid is so lucky. This kid is so lucky. He does this and that. But early on, I just realized that the harder you worked at it, the more successful you were. And so, I just stuck with that. And as I got into college, out of high school, I kind of switched over to archery hunting because the season worked better with school, so I could hunt almost an entire month. I mean, I went to Eastern Oregon University just so I could hunt. I mean, that's literally the only reason I chose to go to that school. Are you from your younger years? You were from Oregon anyway, though?

I am, yep. I'm Oregon born and raised, but I grew up on the west side of the state and moved to the east side of the state about 10 years ago just for school. Met my wife there. She's born and raised in La Grande. So, we've lived there ever since, and I don't have any intentions or plans on moving. I really love it there. So, when you're talking about your childhood and success and hunting camps and all that, you're talking about general season, over-the-counter type hunts there in Oregon. Like, that's what you guys did. You're correct. Yeah, and that's really the basis of a lot of this Oregon hunting, especially with a rifle. I remember it was spike-only rifle elk season, and that is all I knew. Wow. Yeah, so that's how I got my start. Yeah. Well, to be successful in over-the-counter, you know, type hunts, I mean, that tells you a lot right there, and to do it on a regular basis.

You gotta grind it out. Yeah, you gotta grind it out. You definitely do. You got to outwork the next guy. Highly pressured units, highly pressured elk, lots of people. Not a lot of roadless areas in the particular units we were hunting, so you just had to grind it out above the rest of the people. But yeah, that's pretty much how I got my start. And then I met my wife early on in college, and I think the real stepping-off point was my wife drew a sheep tag in 2012 in Oregon. And that kind of started me down a rabbit hole that now looking back five, six years later, I could have never anticipated that I'd be in the position I am today. Yeah, one time. So, talk about that a little more. I mean, we can all, you know, remember the picture. It's just a freaking awesome ram and, you know, a gal that did it and whatnot.

So, it's just one of those things that, anyway, but tell us a little bit about that. Like, you just decided you want to start guiding them. You wanted more of those experiences. I mean, how did that, how did it actually change your direction? It, I really, it boils down to mentorship, and I really think that is what has slingshotted me into the position I am at such a young age. I've had some of the best mentors, a young hunter, a young guide, young outfitter could ever hope for. So, in 2012, we're just college kids, and she draws a bighorn sheep tag in Oregon, Hell's Canyon, arguably probably the top unit in Oregon. And we didn't know crap, guys. We were broke, college kids. Killing Spike Elk. Oh, good goodness. I was working nights at a grocery store, putting myself through school, and my wife was working at a local convenience store gas station down the street.

And we were just making ends meet, going through college. And here we had this opportunity in a lifetime to fall in our laps. Yeah. And so, I remember we drove down there. I made her quit her job because her boss wouldn't give her time off. That's hilarious. Things you do for big animals. I said, we will eat SpaghettiOs and bread. I mean, I don't care. We're going to make this happen. And we're going to get 100 pounds of sheep meat at the end of it. We'll be alright. Sheep meat only, and we're going to rely on that. So, I remember we'd skip school and summer on Thursdays and Fridays, and we basically, we'd go four days on down in Hell's Canyon and come back for three days, and it's just enough to pass our classes and pay the rent. That was about it. And we got down there, and we didn't have optics, we didn't have four-wheelers, we didn't have any of the stuff we needed.

But early on, Adam, I think you know Dan Blankenship real well. I had heard this name from people, and it said, you got to talk to Dan, talk to Dan, talk to Dan. So, I incidentally ran into Dan Blankenship, a guy. And it's probably a relationship that changed my life, because we walk into his driveway, and he comes out and goes, you must be Shelby. Right off the bat, he knew who we were.

He knew the draw list or something. He knew the draw, and Dan is really well known at that time. You know, he really wasn't guiding or anything. He was just helping out who he felt like helping out, and then not helping people he didn't feel like helping. So... And he lives in the unit. He's got a place right on the unit. So, he's the sheep in his backyard. Yeah. He does. Most incredible hunter I've ever been around in my life. Extremely talented man, and just a great person and mentor. I couldn't have hoped for a better opportunity.

But, you know, Dan didn't hand anything over to us. He made it to us. He actually, in fact, never went out and looking with us a single time, never showed us a ram, never nothing. But he taught me everything I know about scoring sheep and finding sheep. And we'd look at maps and review maps. We'd roll into his cabin just dusty and tired and defeated. And I'd bring him photos that I had taken. I'd say, what about this ram, Dan? What do you think about this ram? And it was about seven or eight weeks into the scouting, and I finally turned up a really, really impressive big ram. And my wife Shelby goes, girlfriend at the time, you know, she goes, that's the ram I want to shoot right there. And I knew he was big, but I didn't know what I was looking at. And I remember sliding the picture across the table to Dan, and Dan just kind of smirked at us and said, you found him.

You better kill it. You better kill that. You found him. I mean, so he had him named, but wasn't saying anything, just going to let you try to find him. That's correct. And he just made me earn it from everywhere. He didn't throw me off. He didn't give me tip. He just said, you know, Cal, go out and look. And we just humped it. We'd leave camp. If you've ever been in that country, we'd leave camp at 3 or 4 in the morning, and we'd climb up 2,000 and 3,000 vertical feet into all these different canyons and see what we could find. So, we turned the ram up, but that was just the beginning of the story because we had a tag in the unit, and there was one other hunter. But before that, the auction tag and the raffle hunter got to hunt. And Dan knew the auction hunter at that time, and he came into the unit with a truckload of guides from Utah and different states around.

Hey, don't be bashing Utah guys. It wasn't me. It wasn't me. I wasn't up there. We had the Utah guys that came in. So, they hunted the unit real hard, and we were looking at our number two and three ram, thinking there's no way this ram is going to survive. This story's going to get good. Lo and behold, they didn't turn the ram up, and he was living in the oddest of spots, and that's why they didn't find him. So, was Dan helping them at all, or just kind of like with you, just friends with everybody?

He was, Dan was very good about being mutual friends with everybody. And so, Dan didn't compromise your ram, obviously. He didn't... That's correct. He just said, you know, you guys got to be realistic with the possibility, more likely than not, that ram's going to get killed. Yeah. You know, there was guys, here we were with Bushnell binoculars, you know, and there's guys out there with Swarovski spotting scopes on every ridge and looking, and we just didn't think there'd be a chance he survived. But, you know, like those big old sheep do, he found a little pot. He was a pocket that he wasn't getting messed with, and he lived there the whole season, and they didn't turn him up, thankfully. Wow. So, the auction hunter killed a beautiful ram, really nice ram, mid-upper 180s, and then the raffle hunter killed a nice ram as well. And before you know it, we were turned over, ready to go.

They killed both of them in your unit, or her unit. That's correct, and lately in Oregon. Were these other, I don't mean to cut you off, but were these other rams, the other two rams that they killed, the auction and the raffle, I mean, were they rams you had seen also? They were, yes. The one that the the auction hunter killed was our number three ram. Okay. So, we were definitely looking, he was in a pretty easy spot to find and he was found. He was real long on one side, broom back on the other. Beautiful ram. I think he was 86, if I remember correctly. Wow. And the hunter, he was from California, he killed the ram and was ecstatic. But before you know it, here we are. Oh, it's your turn. Yeah.

Now it's our turn, you know. The ram had boogied and moved like the big ones do right before the season started, and we went over a week early before the hunt started, and I couldn't believe it. It was like a total God moment for us climbing the hill in the last evening before the last hunt. I hadn't seen the ram in two weeks. Really? Come up over the hill, and I throw the spot and scope up, and there he is bedded down looking at me 500 yards away. Wow. Now, you have bush nails. Do you have long range? I don't know if you have a strange gun at all or anything. Oh my goodness. Jason, we were hunting with a Bi-Mark 7mm08 with a Bushnell. Oh, 7mm08. You bet. I have one of those for my daughters mainly because they're nice, fun little guns to shoot. They don't kick, but...

They're nice for a mountain lion. Yeah, they're good to shoot for about a hundred guns. We borrowed the rifle from a friend of ours. Yeah. Oh, geez. Yeah, those are the days. Alright, so there you are, 500. Is Dan with you by chance at all? You know, I would have loved if he was with me, but if Dan is a family man 100%, his son is the same age as me and was moving into college that weekend. Okay. So, he couldn't be with us. So, you found this ram the day before the hunt? You found him again? Is that what it was? That's correct, and we're watching him, and we're elated, couldn't believe it, and there he is, and you guys wouldn't believe this, a damn black bear walks off the top of the hill and walks right into that ram and boogies him down into the timber. Nah. It was the highest of highs and…

Five minutes later, the lowest of lows. And here's our ram, and then this Hell's Canyon country is typically kind of one open side of the canyon, and then the other side is timbered. And you've got to remember, it's 100 to 110 degrees, so those rams timber up like mule deer that time of year. Yeah, you're in September, right? First of September. We are. It's actually like the last few days of August. Yeah. So, it was awful, but Shelby was, you know, she just, she'd hunted, but she didn't kind of have that experience, and heck, neither did I at the time, and there was a lot of pressure. We had a lot of guys in camp. Everybody, of course, you guys know when a sheep tag is around, everybody wants to be part of that hunt, and I remember she was just on the verge of a breakdown, just with all the pressure around her to get a big ram killed and do this and that, and Dan called

Shelby that night, and they talked on the hill, and he talked her off the cliff, so to speak. There were tears, and Dan, for being such a great mentor to myself, was just like that with Shelby as well. And said, Shelby, it is what it is. We're going to do our best. So, long story short, the next day, we went after it, and thankfully relocated the ram. We didn't get him killed that first day. Was he all by himself? He was with 13 rams that morning, and that's the only reason we found him. Did he come out of the timber? Was he out of the timber from the back bed? He was right on the timber, right on the edge of the timber at daylight, and they had moved and bedded under a juniper. You would have never seen him unless you watched him walk to that juniper in bed. So, we made a stalk on him, and Shelby was just shaking so bad with her rifle, I wasn't letting her shoot,

because I could tell, you know, we were about 300 yards, which is about her max range. It's about the max range of a 7mm M08. It really is. I've shot them with my kids. Adam and I both have them, and my kid killed his first buck with it. It is. But anyway, so yeah. It really was, and the pressure was getting to her, and we just decided that she couldn't make the shot, and the rams had moved to the other side of the canyon. So, second day of the hunt, we relocated the ram, and now he had broke off and was with only two other sheep. And we moved in, and it was kind of one of those stalks where you were going to pop up and it was going to be a close shot kind of thing. And that wily old ram kind of tried to backdoor us and move out, and next thing we know, he's coming up a finger ridge 100 yards from us.

Shelby laid down on the ground real quick, kind of one knee deal, and shot the ram as he spun and looked right at us. And we just couldn't believe it. We were elated. We didn't know how big he was. Oddly enough, Dan doesn't like to throw numbers out there at all, but he just told me, Cal, that's the ram you guys need to kill if you have the opportunity. And I shared the photos with some fairly experienced sheep hunters, or so they thought. And nobody would tell me that ram would go 180 inches. I couldn't believe it, looking at the photos of him. Not even 180. Not even 180, yeah. Geez. So, we walked up to him, and I put my hands around his bases for the first time, and I couldn't believe him. And when we got him back to camp, he was 17-inch bases and 42 long. Geez. So, where did he end up going? He was 193. And how many rams did you put your hands on prior to this ram?

That was the first sheep. That's what I think is hilarious. I mean, I think it's hilarious. It's crazy. The rookies, so to speak, in every sense of the word, you know. Oh, 100%. But you put in more time, I would dare say, than nearly anybody on that unit, and that's an awesome story for getting your, I guess, first start, so to speak, in sheep, You're wanting to kill giant stuff or take whatever hunting to another level. And 193-inch Rocky is world-class in any state. You're exactly right. That's ridiculous. As I was saying, that kind of slingshotted me into the fact that, you know, it seems like a local person in Eastern Oregon draws that tag every year. It's a pretty popular unit to apply in. So, then it just kind of became, you know, hey, Cal, would you guys mind coming to help us?

We just fell in love with sheep and fell in love with sheep hunting. So, for a period of, you know, four or five years there, I was just jumping at any opportunity I could to go on any sheep hunts anywhere. And I kind of diversed into mountain goats as well, and I got real interested in big elk and big deer. And for a long time there, for a period of a few years, I was spending my own gas money just to go help these people with tags wherever. If I could be a part of the hunt, and if I could be a value, you know, I was there. Not acting as an outfitter guide, necessarily, just because you're loving it. Yeah, you're exactly right. It kind of turned into, you guys know in the guiding outfitting business, there's a lot of outfitters in some of these units at the time, and they were like, you know, they were concerned that I was doing this illegally and taking money and doing this,

but I assured to have my T's crossed and I's dotted, and you know, I didn't take any money ever, And it was just, I kind of had a plan early on, and I knew if I could do this and build my resume and show that I can accomplish this and help these people do this, that if I ever wanted to be a guide or an outfitter, I feel like it would give me a step up and I'd kind of project myself into the industry, so to speak. Yeah. Well, you're getting a lot of experience off of, you know, draw guys without a lot of the pressure because you're just there helping, you know. You're exactly right.

Yeah, that's a... You know, when you're starting off, especially on higher profile species like sheep and goat, you can't just say, hey, I'm a new sheep and goat outfitter, book me. You gotta... My wife killed a monster. She killed a monster, but yeah, there was... I don't want to hit wonder, you know, you gotta get four or five under your belt, and they're like, hey, this guy's always showing up in pictures with people. He must know something.

You're exactly right. That's exactly what I thought early on, and there was a lot of people who told me it was stupid and, you know, be careful, Cal, don't get in trouble or anything. And I said, I'm not worried about getting in any trouble. I'm not doing anything wrong. I'm just the guy in the background of all the photos because I'm doing all I can to make these people successful and fulfill my passion for sheep hunting or big elk or big deer or mountain goats. So, yeah, that's... So, then that, let's see, that starts in 2012. Now you're, tell us about your business, your partner, how all this came about. So, incidentally, I kind of started doing that, and my wife would tell me I was crazy when I, you know, I'd come from one hunt... She's telling you to get a job, that's what she's telling you.

Yeah, you know, I was out of college now, and I was working, but like I said, I was spending my own gas money to go do that. Yeah, it's just buying my, you know, piece by piece, building my toolbox, so to speak, and buying my first pair of Swarovski binoculars or spotting scope or here and there and really just working my way through it. I can't tell you how many nights I'd come home and Shelby would pack me more food and wash my clothes and slap me on the butt and go out the door and I'd say, I'll see you in another week, you know? Yeah, you gotta have a good wife to be able to do this. This industry, and we've talked about it several times, this industry, you know, you gotta have a good one. We're all lucky to have good ones. If you got a normal wife, you're not gonna make it in this industry.

I tell you, she is responsible for so much of my personal success. I can't even, I mean, probably more so than myself. I mean, I could not do what I do without her, without a doubt in my mind. Yeah, Texas Port. We're right there with you. We get it. So, your last, I don't know, few years, tell us how you made the, alright, I'm going to be a guide or an outfitter and how you partnered up with who you partnered up with and what you call yourselves. Sure, sure. So, you know, I was kind of looking for a direction to turn and kind of what I wanted to do, and I looked at a couple of these, you know, Oregon has a fairly strange permit system for becoming an outfitter. They like to issue a lot of temporary use permits, where you've got to basically file for a permit with every hunter in every particular area. And it goes through the police department, right? It's the state police.

Yes, and you've got to have BLM permits, Forest Service permits, wilderness permits. They definitely don't make it an easy deal for an outfitter. And I didn't want to pigeonhole myself into one particular unit for one particular species. There's just a lot of outfitters in the state of Oregon that were like that, and I had bigger aspirations and dreams than doing that. So, I learned early on that I needed to partner with the right people, the right ground, and the right individuals that can continue to make me successful, and I can help make them successful. So, coincidentally, I had some great mentors and guys that wanted to partner with me, Dan as well, ironically enough. Yeah. So, we decided to do that and move forward. And also, Oregon just doesn't really manage for trophy species, or trophy deer, trophy elk, or anything like that. It's more of an opportunity-managed state.

So, I kind of came to the realization that these large tracts of privately owned land were the key to growing big deer, or big elk, because we could manage that ground ourselves and limit the amount of animals we're taking and take selective animals. And, you know, implement our own predator management systems, and then, all of a sudden, we're starting to grow these older deer. Yeah, that's smart, because we know Oregon... The state's not going to do it for you. It's not like Nevada, where, you know, the majority is, or Utah, or whatever. I mean, you do have a lot of private up there in Oregon where you can actually do that. You're correct. And so, we, you know, a couple of my partners were able to secure some long-term leases and land purchases, And really starting to monopolize the amount of private land to where it was a big enough tract of land that we could manage it and see.

I mean, we're already seeing the results of some of the actions we're taking now, and I think the future looks very, very bright. That being said, there's nothing wrong with managing for opportunity. I mean, I think that makes up the vast majority of hunters, especially in Oregon. Yeah, they're just not going to pay you big money. That's the thing. You're not going to make money on an opportunity hunter. You know what I mean? Well, like yourself, you don't want to take your time away from your regular job or your family to just go shoot meat bulls and average bucks. You guys are exactly right. You want to hunt big rounds. Go back to the over-the-counter spikes. It's not going to cut them anymore. Yeah, you're exactly right. That's the way I looked at it. I didn't want to miss a week's worth of my time to go hunt a $5,000 elk hunt.

It just wasn't it, you know, it didn't benefit myself or my family, or I don't think was a good use of my time. Take somebody on Wanaha Walla Walla or something. All right, different story. We're hunting some giant bulls. And sometimes, you know, the better outfitters, they have a drive in them to be, for some reason, just to maximize tags, to maximize the opportunities in particular units. And that's what drives Adam and I. You want to put your hands on the biggest thing that walks. That's what drives us. That's what we really enjoy. It's not about killing 30 bulls a year on this. It's about getting that one particular bull or sheep or goat or whatever it may be. But chasing the pursuit, guys, is what we love. Like I said, my mentors and the partners that I've had have just really struck a core with me and really ingrained that into my DNA.

I just don't get as excited looking at a 160-inch deer that's three years old as I do a deer that's much older and much bigger kind of thing. So, how did you get into the big deer? How did you get into big elk? I mean, where are some of those experiences? Did you accompany some people in the Wanaha or other different opportunities that you have there in Oregon? Sure thing. Another mentor of mine, he was an outfitter back in the day, John Wick. I knew him early on. And same kind of thing, I think he recognized the drive that I had, and the passion. And John, whatever people may say about him, he is one of the best, most passionate elk hunters I've ever seen in my life. Extremely, extremely talented individual. So, John, much like all these other guys, I was able to take a little piece from John, and if I took anything from him, it was his drive, passion, and determination.

And he taught me everything I knew about finding big bulls and looking for big bulls, and then went on Mount Emily and Walla Walla, this kind of Oregon's big three units. Yeah. And really, that area still, I'm super passionate about it, love it. If I have a friend that has a tag or something like that, I love to go hunt that country. Yeah. Unfortunately, much like the permit system I was alluding to, they make it extremely hard to guide an outfit in there. Like, there's only one permitted outfitter that can guide in the wilderness. Just one, you know. Well, and to get those outfitter tags here and there, and it's, I don't know, I hate to even use the word tags with an S, because there's so few and far between. You're exactly right. But we did, you know, my dad had one of those years back in, on the Wanawha archery, and that's some thick, nasty country.

And that was like one of the first years GPS even came out, and we were, you know, freaking lost one night. Thankful you had it. Oh, well, and they couldn't find the satellites because we're in this tree forest. Anyway, but the Winaja was a pretty special place, especially considering Oregon. But anyway, yeah, tough to make a living as an outfitter. They have the outfitter tags, but, you know, across the state, sprinkled across the state, but there's just hardly any opportunity for an outfitter like yourself. For top-end. You're exactly right. You know, that's your baby. If you're going to be an outfitter in the Winaja, that is your passion, And that's the only place you're going to be, because you're the only guy for that hunt. And, you know, the outfitter over there, he's a great guy. They run a great outfit. They're successful, for sure.

And it's just not something I was really interested in doing. I didn't want to pigeonhole myself into one place and one species. So, to this day, you know, all I do is, if I have a friend that has a tag, or a family member, or one of my partners, or something like that, You know, we love to go hunt there. I had a friend, Nick, that had a, he actually drew the Oregon raffle elk tag a couple years ago. And we went in there and hunted real hard. I had actually just, I came out of the Frank Church in Idaho after a 10-day backpack hunt, and turned and burned and showed up in the Winawa, and we'd been looking for one particular bull that, between John and myself, we had seven sets of sheds off of him. A real special, big, typical bull, and we were able to locate him and get him killed. He was a .383, .382 typical. It's a freaking monster. For Oregon, just a freaking monster, you know.

Yeah, that's a monster. Yeah, it's a monster. I remember that picture. Dark, dark antler bull, I remember. Beautiful. That bull was kind of...that bull struck a chord with me as well just after watching an animal alive for so many years, And he'd show up on the wintering grounds in the same place like clockwork and shed in, you know, relatively the same area year after year. And walking up to him on the ground was kind of surreal. It was almost sad. It kind of makes it sound weird to say that. Yeah, but you just know you'd never watch him again. You'd never pick his antlers up again. But the bull was 13 years old. I mean, you probably weren't going to watch him very much more anyways. Well, we've experienced that from time to time. It's bittersweet, if you can call it that, Because there's a lot of time and investment in some of these animals, and some years they're down,

or you don't have anybody with a tag to even hunt them, and the next year they get away or whatever. Yeah, it's just one of those things. You get so attached to them and look forward to seeing what they're going to be this year and picking up their sheds. It's very cool. You know, going and hunting and killing an animal that you saw for the first time, that's a great thing for a lot of people. But for me, it takes it to next level, when it's an animal you've lived with and watched and learned his habits and learned what he does and then outsmart that old fox, so to speak. That takes it on another level for me. And so, how about deer? I mean, you're into goats, sheep, deer, elk. I mean, maybe animal, but I don't know. I mean, how did you get into it?

A couple of my other partners, you know, Scott Coe and Todd Longgood, they had this huge mule deer passion we used to joke about all the time. I said, I don't know why you guys like those things. You know, I just didn't get it until I realized how hard it is to find a big old deer. And I think it was that pursuit that drew me to it. And, you know, we have some of the best deer ground in the state of Oregon, in my opinion. I think it's bar none the best opportunity to produce a big deer. And still, you know, those deer that go 190 plus are so rare, so rare to find. What unit are you in? What area are we talking about? We're in the Lookout Mountain unit. Okay. And so, you're talking like your private leases within the Lookout. You think like that's the best opportunity. You got genetics, you got age.

I really do. We have genetics, we have great management. You know, we're killing a lot of coyotes. The deer live a non-pressured life. We kill very, very few deer on over 20,000 acres of private ground. We kill just one or two deer a year. Wow. Very, very few. We're real particular about which deer we kill. This year, we already pretty much have mapped out which deer should be taken, because we've been watching him for five years. He's maxed out. He's maxed out. He's never doing anything different. And then we've got some young up-and-comers. I think I sent you both a picture. We've got a great buck that's got five eye guards and a drop tine and a great frame. But, you know, I think we've made the decision that we're going to let that deer go and go another year or two and see what he does.

We think he's only a four-year-old deer or so. Yeah. Wow. Well, you're pretty fortunate to be able to do that. To be able to just harvest one or two deer because you've got so many other things going and be able to continue. You guys are exactly right. That's why we're able to do it, and we have a big mule deer passion, so we want to see what that deer's potential could be. And, you know, you guys know going four to five on a good year, who knows what that deer could blow up into. Or he could get my mountain lion, you know. Yeah, it can go either way. It could pay off for you big, or you'd be like, man, we should have taken him. He's dead in the rock somewhere. So, do you guide on any of these others, like the late, you know, juniper muzzle, or any of these, you know, steens, or do you do any of these other units, or just pretty much that stick with that?

We have hunted them. We have hunted them personally for our own, and really enjoy the units. The juniper hunt, in particular, can be tough, because it's very migratory. So, it can produce a big deer, but it's still a tough hunt, and we really like the steens as well. I think that area can turn a big deer up any time. But we really, really enjoy it. But as far as guiding down there, again, very difficult permit system. They do offer some outfitter tags to do it. So, we'll of course apply for those outfitter tags, and if we can pull one, there are several people that would definitely be interested in hunting that hunt with us. Yeah. Well, I've hunted, we did one of those outfitter tags on the juniper, and been in the Steens a bit and stuff, and that is some It's crazy, rugged. That steams us some rugged stuff. Just a flat road is rugged.

Oh, gosh. You better bring three or four spare tires with you. It's unbelievable. Lava rock puncture stuff. Yeah, it's crazy. You could kill a deer in the sagebrush flats, or you could kill them above 9,000 feet. I mean, it's just absolutely crazy terrain. Yeah, yeah, it is. So, you're fast-forwarding, I guess, to where we are now, 2017. You're looking to take some mountain goat hunters. Yeah, mountain goat sheep. I mean, it's anything. You're hunting squirrels. You're doing everything. You're doing anything big, that's right. We really are. You're calling yourself sheep mountain outfitters. That's what you're known as, right? You and your partners? Correct. What not? Yep, correct. Okay. And specializing in what? Tell us ideally and for people that, you know, I mean, obviously the draw stuff for sheep and goat, that's where they come along as they come along.

So, deer private land stuff, and maybe a few key elk. Is there anything additional to that? Is that kind of what you guys do? That's really what we're focused on. We get a lot of attention for sheep and goats, of course, because it's kind of your top tier species. We do guide roughly 35-ish hunters on private land for deer and elk archery and rifle. So, just not that. You talked about two on that ranch, but you've got other ranches where you hunt more opportunity deer and elk. That's correct, that are more opportunity-based. And then, usually, we'll hunt with one or two statewide deer hunters, maybe a statewide elk hunter. The only thing we don't really do a whole lot of is antelope. How come? I'm just teasing. We need a good antelope outfitter. And you guys got big bucks.

We do have just giant antelope, and I've got some funny stories about, you know, glassing up an antelope and calling a friend that had a tag, and he goes, how big do you think it is, Cal? I said, gosh, I don't know. It's a two-point. How long do you think it's hornet? I said, well, 16 or 17, maybe. He said, are you kidding me? They're similar that way to sheep. That's why nobody wanted to call your ram over 180. You're scared to, because they're hard to judge. Yeah, yeah. Antelope, even more so that way. It's extremely tough to judge. I just don't, yeah, and I'm not afraid to admit, I just don't know anything about them. And so, the hunter came over and killed this goat, and it was just spectacular. He looked in the scope at him for, you know, three seconds and said, oh my goodness, are you kidding me? And they shoot this antelope, it was 86 inches, you know.

There you go. You can be an antelope guide, it's that easy, Cal. That's it, you're on the board, Cal. Yeah, I got one. That's the equivalent of a 193 initial bighorn ram, you know, 86 inch antelope, first one. How many antelopes have you touched, Juan? How big was it, 86 inches? Yeah, and that's just how it goes. I got a friend that's got an antelope tag, and I saw a couple bucks last week in antelope bucks while I was out watching sheep, and he goes, how big do you think they are? I said, gosh, I don't know. They're bucks. I don't know. Yeah, exactly. You're going to have to drive up alongside them, have them chase your truck so you can get a closer look. Yeah, yeah. So, I guess if I'm fast-forwarding to this year, we usually, the last few years, we hunt seven to ten sheep hunters a year, state of Oregon. Tell us, yeah, rattle off some you either prefer or are willing to do or can do.

Adam's hunted Beatty's Butte. I hunted John Day. I mean, can you get permits in any unit you want to get them in? That is, yeah, with sheep, the permit system is actually easier, ironically enough. Okay. So, we just file with the state of Oregon for a particular hunter in a particular unit, and then we're good to go. There's really no permit issues with sheep, so it's just a matter of, you know, if it fits into our time schedule, if it's a hunter we want to hunt with, and if we can make it happen, we're definitely going to make it happen and deliver a great product to the hunter. What units on the sheep do you, those you guys specialize in? Yeah, we really like Lookout, it was our kind of home unit. We like Snake River, and now Snake River and the Chess-Nemis unit are kind of combined as one for sheep. I really like that. We do a lot of John Day hunts as well. Both sides?

Adam, you had a John Day tag, right? I did. I had a West John Day. You do both sides there, East and West? We prefer the East side. We have some land lease there on the East side. Last year, we killed 178-inch. And another mid-170s ram in there. That's awesome. So, some absolute brutal California rams. These are California bighorns. Those are all. Yeah, they're California rams. Yeah, that's awesome. The Potamus unit, which is just kind of upper John Day, off the North Fork of the John Day River. We've killed a 180-inch ram in there as well, California bighorn. Wow. So, that's a sneaker unit. Unfortunately, residents can't apply for that one, but phenomenal. Any others, or is that the bulk of them? That is the bulk of them, and then we'll, of course, address if a hunter has a tag somewhere else.

You guys got time or something? Between the team, yeah, we've been in almost every unit that has sheep in the state, you know, so if we can make it happen, we definitely will. Yeah, it'll just keep adding to your portfolio, and it's not like you haven't proven yourself, and with a little bit of time, I mean, you'd be able to figure out any unit, I'm pretty certain. Yeah, you know how it is, guys. Just got to commit the time and be honest with the hunter and do him right by what he's paying you and make it happen. So, I know you're taking mountain goat this year a little bit, and of course, we've texted back and forth some pictures, you know, you and I and Adam and whatnot. Tell us how you got into that. I mean, there's hardly any goats tags. Sheep and goats, where you're talking, kind of overlap in the same country.

Yep, yep. So, yeah, we spent a lot of time in the, the sheep and goats spent a lot of time in the same country and just started hunting some goats with some different hunters, and boy, mountain goats are tough. They still fool me all the time, and like we're talking, you know, texting pictures back and forth, they can be so tough. And Oregon just started implementing an auction goat tag, which has been great. I think it raises some really good money for the state. I can't believe how much money it goes for sometimes, but... How much? Around 35,000, 40,000. Wow. For a spike. A small spike. We're talking a nine-and-three-quarters spike. Maybe 10. Well, maybe 10, yeah. That's awesome. Oregon does grow some absolutely outstanding goats. You got some big ones. You do. Yeah, 50, 52-inch type stuff. Yeah, we can definitely do that. And the crazy thing is, almost any goat unit in the state.

Yeah, okay. So, we like Hell's Canyon a lot. We like the Elkhorns grow great mountain goats. Hex, the Strawberries grow great mountain goats. The only unit I feel like it would be tougher to kill a big mountain goat is some of those Eagle Cap Wilderness hunts. I think the goats just have a harder winter there, so it's harder to get to that age. But that being said, a guy killed a 50 plus goat in there last year. I mean, it happens. What is your, I mean, of all these species or all these hunts, which ones of each year do you really get most excited about? Is it the sheep? I'd have to say it's sheep for myself, you know, but that's the beautiful thing about having partners in this business is we all kind of have our individual passion, if you will, and big sheep just turn my crank just like nothing else. So, I definitely would have to say sheep, but then, you know, there's others that, you

know, other buddies of mine that deer is what, you know, that's their thing. So, I can understand that one. Yeah. For sure. Big deer, nothing wrong with that either. You bet. What, well, so, when you're calling them partners, I mean, they're probably true partners in the business. Are they sub-guides that guide for you? That's exactly it. Yeah, we have true business partners that are part of the business, and then we have guides, And then, of course, we have a long list of guys that just want to be involved with what we're doing, whether that be guiding or they're out scouting for us. They just want to be a part of what we're doing. And they know our vision. There hasn't really been an outfitter that's really dominated the state. And I don't know if dominates the right word, but has taken over the state as far as going statewide and not focused in one little niche. Yeah.

So, they see the vision and passion we have, and I think just like anything else, natural human nature, they want to be a part of that too, and we love to have them. It's the right guy and the right fit. We're all about it. Well, and that's what I wanted to kind of get into with you a little bit on this podcast a little bit. Adam and I have talked quite a bit, and we're trying to keep track of who's doing what, and it's all interesting to us. The animals are interesting, but also the people like yourself that are passionate about it, and we want to be affiliated with those people here at Epic.

But anyway, relatively new, bringing a huge awareness to a state like Oregon, I would lump it in, similar to California or similar to Washington or some of these states that are maybe lesser known than other western states. So, you're bringing this awareness and almost feels like an untapped market up there in Oregon as far as an outfitter perspective. Not a lot, I mean, you talk about some other outfitters, but like you said, they like to stick in certain units, or maybe they're a blacktail outfitter, or Roosevelt elk, or both, or whatever. But you're kind of changing the game a little, I want to say. And, you know, it's, you know, props to you for doing that. And it's just, it's quite fun to watch you guys grow. And, of course, you're in on all these, you know, some of these statewide tags.

And so, people are trusting that you'll find some big animals and putting a lot of faith and money and whatnot into the projects. And so, anyway, it's quite interesting, intriguing, and pretty awesome to see Oregon get some of the recognition from guys like you that are helping out. Well, thanks, Jay. We really appreciate that. I think on behalf of all of us, yeah, we really think that you recognize that. And we're trying to do the right thing. It's tough. The permit system is real tough in this state, so you've got to make sure everything is above board all the time, and you're doing the right thing, and you're with the right people. So, it takes a lot of work, as you guys know, as outfitters yourself.

But we've got, like I said, these older guys have just given me such great mentorship along the way, and have humbled me repeatedly, and said, you know, just continually keep your head down and keep doing this, and doors will continue to open for you as long as you continue down this path. And that's really what we're trying to do. You know, we want, we pass on, if it's a hunt that we can't do, you know, if it's a reputable outfair that we have a great relationship with, we, you know, have no problem at all passing that hunter on. We're putting that hunter onto that outfitter, just making sure everybody gets taken care of, especially if they're, you know, epic clients and stuff like that.

So, we really appreciate what you guys are doing for us as well. It's been a big help. You guys have been responsible for some great hunters that have come and booked with us this year, and I think we're set to have an absolute banner year coming up this year. Well, we're glad to do it. Like I said, you know, Jason and I picked up, you can kind of get a feeling. I mean, even if you don't know somebody, in our case, you know, We've been through this last, you know, roughly years when we've gotten to know you more or less, connected with you, reached out to you, things like that. Wanted you as a outfitter source for our clients that we felt we could trust. Obviously, that we can then have long-term relationship and trust with our clients. They book with you there or have a great hunt with you there.

They're going to trust us with their New Mexico elk tag or their Montana sheep tag or whatever they draw down the road. And that's what it's about is long-term partnerships that make everybody better at what they do and make everybody, you know, stay relevant and stay cutting edge and new and all that. And I think that is kind of the, I don't know, fresh perspective that maybe what we're seeing that you guys are offering in there because it is a tough state. You know, we're not as privy to the ins and outs of the outfitter permitting system that you've kind of alluded to, But we're very familiar with the regular state permit process there. It's frankly, you know... Like you've talked about, it's been a little frustrating. It's tough, especially from a non-resident perspective. It's very frustrating.

Oregon's not one...it's not a no-brainer for people to apply up there. The only really saving grace for like sheep and goat, in our opinions, is they don't have a point system. So, at least you've got as good a chance as anybody. And Jason and I, I guess, are living proof that non-residents can draw it. We shouldn't draw it. You guys have both beat the odds. Yeah, we did, and so you can, but obviously, it was the, you know, $160 license and $8 per speech. You could spend a couple hundred bucks a year in Oregon and maybe not get anything ever out of it. Exactly right. That's real tough to justify for a non-resident, and I totally understand that. But at the same time, you know, somebody's gonna get them, and it's nice to have somebody like you and your guys for when that happens, because, you know, most people,

In Oregon, they're looking to burn points on their elk or deer if they've been doing it for a long time. They want what you can probably help them with, and that's a big elk or a big deer or obviously sheep or goats. So, nice that we got, you know, somebody like yourself to send them to because, you know, we all maybe wish Oregon was a little bit different, but the West is what it is, and each state, you know, has a certain system, and it is what it is. And so, you got to adapt and do it. Like I said, you got some of these raffle tag programs, private land, Some of these auction tags that you're all able to keep and do, you know, what you want to do. And you got to be flexible and adapt to that because, yeah, otherwise you can't really make a real living up there doing it, you know, in one set unit, like I said.

Yeah, exactly right. And, you know, I realize we are kind of the young guys on the block, so to speak, especially myself. And a lot of the outfitting businesses in the state of Oregon have been established for a long time. And I don't mean to speak demeaningly of them if I call them mom and pops outfitters' businesses, but that's kind of how they've been. They've been family-run businesses for decades, and they may not be kind of tapped into the way Epic has so much clientele and what your business has to offer. So, if anything, if it's a hunter we can't guide or we can't fit them in, we're very tapped into the market in Oregon and know who the best guide to give them to is, kind of thing. What is your, you know, advice for non-residents? Should they be applying? Should they just go on private land with you?

Should they, you know, just wait until they want to go and then try to book a hunt and figure it out? Should they gain in points? I mean, say I want a 190-inch deer or 185 or 80-inch plus deer and a, you know, 330, 340 plus bull. I mean, would you be applying? Would you be buying? What's your advice to non-residents there in Oregon? I have a hard time discouraging a non-resident from applying, just because there are tags given away at random in the state of Oregon, as far as applying. So, you always have a chance, especially for sheep and mountain goats. There are some fantastic... We grow some of the biggest bighorn sheep and mountain goats in the state, and up until recent years, it really hasn't been common knowledge, if you will. But we're producing some fantastic sheep and goats. So,

So, if you're looking for an upper-level deer or an upper-level elk, though, elk in particular, some of these wilderness units in Oregon are the way to be, in my opinion, if you want to get a bigger, older, mature bull. But the private land opportunities from some of the bigger private land managing outfitting businesses or companies is probably the way to go. For deer and elk, yeah. For deer and elk, I agree. They just, that's where you can grow older deer and you can grow older elk, and with the right feed and the right management. That's what's going to grow them to the trophy level.

You generally get, those would be units, I'm assuming, some of them, that you have a little bit higher permit numbers because the amount of private land the state wants to appease landowners opportunity, you know, either to hunt or lease ground or whatever, or the opportunity to have a few more of the outfitter tags out there. So, if you don't have the points to draw, maybe it doesn't take 18 or 20 to draw those type of units, but if you can't draw them, then you also maybe have another alternative picking up an outfitter tag if you do it early enough. That's correct, yes. You know, the outfitter draw, the outfitters in Oregon will come out early, and what you can do is always check with us or any of the other Oregon outfitters and see what outfitter tags they drew or what they have available, and then if you're ready

to hunt here and now, the landowner tags are really what you got to look at. And, you know, we're allotted a certain amount of LOP tags based off of acreage, as well as the game management plan and that particular GMU. So, every year it varies a little bit. They cut tags back on us pretty bad because of the winter this year. But that's no problem, you know. If anything, we'd like to see these tag numbers stay where they're at right now forever. Yeah. To grow some older deer and things like that. Well, Oregon doesn't like old deer, you know that. They don't. The average deer in Oregon is one and a half years old.

Killed from a road. Well, how big do you guys want to get? You're talking 35 deer and elk and X amount of, you know, 7 to 10 sheep and all of this. Like, how big, I mean, partners need money. And partners, you know, like, are you looking to grow? Are you looking to stay the same, just kill bigger stuff, get a better reputation? What's your goals? You know, guys, we've had that discussion a lot lately, and we have such a great deal going where we're at. But I really think with the particular people we have in place now, the sky is the limit. So, I think a couple of our future moves are going to be continuing to increase, you know, sheep and mountain goats. And then we're going to pick up some bigger tracks of private land as well throughout the state. The only problem with that is having the right guy in place to continue to make that happen.

So, in order to manage more land and manage more hunting at the quality level we want to, we'll definitely be bringing in some more partners in the business with us because we want to continue to grow and turn into an even bigger deal. Yeah. Well, it's natural. Every business wants to grow, but what we've found over the years is there's a sweet spot, you know, and you end up where there's a diminishing return where, you know, X amount of more clients requires X amount of more and more and more, And maybe you give up a piece of your reputation because you don't have your hands in a little bit of everything. Yeah, and that's the last thing we want. Because if there's a bad experience, it falls on all of our shoulders, right? It does, yeah. We accept that, and we need another Calvin, or a Todd, or a Scott, or a Dan.

And they don't make them. They don't make guys like you every day. They just don't. They're tough to find. They're tough to find, you know. You'll feel the sweet spot, more or less. I mean, you're obviously, it sounds like you're fairly new as a crew of you guys. You've got a lot of experience, but as far as being together, you're new. But you'll feel it. You guys aren't going to want to be the kind of guys, you know, and what I know about, at least Dan and you, that is quality. The over quantity, that's never going to change. And so, you'll feel that, and when something starts to give or feel like it, you'll naturally back off slightly and settle into the groove wherever that sweet spot is. Agreed, and that's what those mentors were for, for me, to check me and humble me and tell me, you know,

So, this is where we think we should be to maintain the quality of experience and the quality of animals that we currently have. Well, I just personally want you guys to stay in Oregon, because I don't want to have you guys down here killing all our deer and stuff. Oh, good. With your personality and your aggressiveness, you could put the herd on some things. So, anyway, just stay in Oregon. We'll probably be sticking to Oregon for quite a while. That's where we're pretty rooted over here. All right, good. What about this year, 2017? What's on tap for some of your bigger hunts you got, either personally or... Seems like something's going on tomorrow or next day, next day. I mean, you got some things coming down the pipe right here. Yeah, yeah. We have a statewide sheep hunter starting on August 1st, Brock. You guys both know Brock.

Really, really excited to hunt with Brock. He's coming down with his bow. We got some fantastic rams for him. Really gonna try to push to break the Oregon Archery State record on Bighorn. Wow, cool. And I think we've got a couple rams that'll do it. So, we're really, really looking forward to that. And then we've got a number of sheep hunts coming. We have a real fun one this year. We have a 12-year-old kid who drew a lookout sheep tag. Wow. He's coming to hunt with us. That's awesome. That's awesome. Resident? He is a resident local kid. We know his family real well, and they drew the sheep tag. And we reached out to them and said we'd love to take him hunting. Wow, good for you. We're gonna take him, and I just think if this kid has a great experience, he's gonna be a hunter for the rest of his life, and maybe he'll be a sheep guide for Sheep Mountain Outfairs one day. You never know.

There you go. I just know the kind of passion that something like that and a good experience can spark. Oh yeah, it happened with you and your own. We're gonna have him and his dad and his family and kill a ram. We're really, really looking forward to that. We got a great ram picked out for him. That's a great nine and a half, ten and a half year old ram. And when we can kind of decide which rams in the unit get killed, it really is showing that it can help with our management a ton, and we can grow the right rams and kill the right rams at the right age kind of thing. So, we love that opportunity to do that. Well, that's what's, again, a unique spot up there, because you're not competing against, you know, 14 other outfitters and trying to, you know, and then you can almost have your private management strategy on a public land type draw tags. You know what I mean?

That's exactly our intent. That's what we're trying to do. It's pretty crazy. It's pretty fun. It's a strange dynamic. It really is. But that's what we're striving to do, and I tell you guys, we're seeing the results of it. It's doing well. It's doing real well. And after the sheep, we've got some goats coming up. I think we're going to kill a real big goat this year as well, and we're really excited about that. And some more sheep hunts on the John Day down there in the rut. We really enjoy those hunts all the time. Wow. We're looking forward to that. And then some great archery elk hunting on some of our private ground, and then rifle elk hunting. And we may kill a deer or two. We've got a statewide deer hunter hunting with us as well, and looking forward to that. So... That's awesome. Good. What about anything personal for you? You guys do... Probably no time for personal.

Yeah, it doesn't sound like it, but... You're either going to have to quit her job again, or whatever. Yeah, it's real tough. I think we've committed to opening two days of archery season. Shelby's gonna try and kill a bull with her bow. I got to watch her kill her first archery elk last year. That's awesome. A nice six-point bull. And I was so elated to watch her kill a bull. It was just the most fun thing in the world for me. She even alluded to, just killing something with your bow is so different, she says. Oh, it is. You're just so much closer to the action. You hear your heartbeat on archery hunts every day, even though you maybe don't fire a shot. And then if you take those rifle tactics where you're picking out specific animals and then do it with a bow... Oh, that's next level stuff. Yeah, it's just retarded. Love it. That's the rush. Just awesome.

I'm going to archery hunt deer myself. I've got a deer picked out, like in one of those older deer we spoke about that hasn't really turned into what we'd hope he'd turn into. But he's just genetic, maybe a genetic inferior just a little bit. Yep, kind of deer that's kind of peeking out at 180 inches, real heavy buck. Just a great, great deer. Great, great deer, but never going to be the next level kind of deer. And we've all agreed that that's the deer we should kill, so I'm going to try and get him killed. And then I do have a controlled rifle elk tag in Oregon that I've waited eight years to get. So, I'm looking real forward to that. I haven't killed an elk with a rifle in a long, long time. So, that's going to be fantastic. Well, that's awesome. Well, is there any specific stories from this last year, anything crazy that really, you know, besides, obviously,

We talked about your wife's ram, and you've sent us some crazy deer pictures, and we actually, you know, you guys posted a picture the other day, and it's one we know about, but a dead deer that's a giant that's surprising come from Oregon. I mean, is there any of those that just stand out that you'd like to share with the listeners? No. Yeah, you know, we killed one deer last year, Jason, that was, he was a 204 inch deer, and it was the craziest deer I've ever seen. Like I said, I don't have any problem admitting that I don't have nearly the experience of some of my partners and mentors on big deer. But when we saw this deer for the first time, he had nine points on one and seven on the other. Crazy deer, but he had an 18-inch inside spread kind of deer. Yeah. We call him the ugliest 200-inch deer we've ever seen in our lives.

Jason and I were looking at trail cam picks on one of those yesterday. Remember? Yeah. He's 200, but like... I think you could get him to 200. I'm like, oh, he's 200, but he's the grossest 200 of them. Yeah, he's ugly. Yeah, maybe 18 inside. That's exactly what this deer was to me, but I was just mesmerized by him. I couldn't believe how cool he was. But when we looked at him, he looked really young to me. He just looked super young in a summer coat and in velvet, and he wasn't overly heavy. And we watched the deer all archery season, and just, he was one of those deer we said, let's give that deer a couple years and see what he turns into. He might turn into a giant kind of deer. And I went up there, and one of my partners, Todd, his wife had the rifle tag in the unit, and it was the day before rifle season, and I went up to where he'd been living during archery season,

and we had decided, if I turn the deer up, let's kill him. If I don't see him, it's meant to be, We're not going to kill him. And I sat there and glassed all evening, didn't turn him up, and right before dark, of course, I find him. And lo and behold, I took a bunch of photos of him, and when that deer went hard-horned, his cape changed over from red to gray. He looked like he aged 10 years on me. I couldn't believe how much older he looked. Their face changes, their body. It's just a weird change. It was a weird change, and you know, I took some photos, and I sent them to some of my experienced partners and buddies and said, You guys think this deer looks a lot older now? And we had made the group decision, as in, you know, every decision we make is as a group, and said, let's kill that deer in the morning.

So, his wife come up early in the morning, and we get set up on this deer, and he was bedded up in the Rim Rock. He was 720 yards, and we killed him right there. And I walked up to the deer, and the first thing I did was open his mouth up. He had one tooth in his head. Oh my gosh. I couldn't believe it. Absolutely crazy. We had him aged just because we were so curious. He's nine and a half years old. Wow, perfect. I don't know how we messed that up. Well, it's tough. I've got trail camera picks of him, you know, like you're saying in velvet, and then I'll get a trail camera pick of him hard-horned end of October when they're getting ready to rut, and it is amazing the difference that they look. He just had this mousy nose. I don't know, he just didn't grow that big blockhead, you know, and it fooled us. It really did in the velvet.

And then when he went hard horn, he changed his look so much. I learned a lot from that experience. Learned a lot. And we got that deer and really happy. So, you know, we killed the right deer, and he was as big as he was ever going to get. Real cool, non-typical buck with a bunch of inlines. And so that really stood out last year as a fun, fun time. A big deer, too. 200-inch deer out of Oregon, and they don't run every day. No, they don't, just because of management, but it's not because of genetics. Oregon's got some incredible genetics. I agree. I think we've got some great, where our private land is, a lot of non-typical, you know, split kickers and kickers and inlines and, you know, even drop tines and stuff like that. We can do it. We can definitely do it in a few more years of managing this ground

We're going to be doing like we are, and gosh, I just think the future is real bright. A few more years, and Adam and I will be bringing up an epic truck. You guys will be coming to hunt with us, yeah. We'll be putting on an epic hunt up there, so. Yeah, we'd love to have you. That'd be a fun time. We've talked about having you guys up. It'd be a fun time. It would be awesome. Well, I'm jealous. I don't mean to switch topics again, but you're killing stuff in about five days, and we're down here waiting for hunts to start, and so we're looking forward to... We got archery deer August 10th is the earliest we're going. But you're getting after it here, so yeah, we wish you luck on that hunt and everything else you got going. And is there anything else you want to share with us about your outfit?

We'd just really like to thank you guys for the opportunity and what you guys helped us grow tremendously. You know, I speak on behalf of everybody, and we've got some fantastic clients, made some great connections because of you guys and your willingness to entrust us with your clients. So, we'd just like to say thank you again, and we can't wait to share with you, you know, the successes and the failures and the, you know, everything we got going on. So, we'll stay in close touch. Well, let's just have you on again at the end of the season, and you can tell us about what got away and what died. I'll tell you all the young guy dumb moves I make and how these guys will square me away and help make me successful.

Well, that's what's going to make you successful is how, you know, I mean, I don't know if humble's the right word, but at least you're willing to, you know, you're confident. There's no question you're confident, but you're also willing to, you know, listen and understand that you're growing in the sport and whatnot. And I expect you'll be in this for 20, 30 years and knocking down some absolute, or continuing to knock down some absolute monsters. And we're happy to be a part of that with you. So, we wish you the best. Thank you guys. I sure hope so. I think the future is bright for everybody and for all of us. So, I'm really looking forward to it. Okay, Calvin. Well, Calvin, appreciate your time. And yeah, we'll look forward to some picks within five or six days. All right, guys. We're headed up on the hill again, so we will keep you in the loop. Just don't shoot the wrong ramp.

Oh, don't even say that. Hey, it happens. That's a bad parting shot right there. That is a bad mojo. It's hard. They get grouped up. Yeah, just ignore that. That was Jason. That had nothing to do with that. He stands out pretty well. I don't think we're going to kill the wrong one. No, you're going to do well. Wish you guys luck, Brock. Yeah, if there's anybody that can get it done with the bow up there, it'll be him. So, wish you guys the best on that. Yes, it is. Hey, buddy. Thank you guys again. Appreciate everything. Get back out there. You bet. Take care. All right, talk to you later. If you draw a tag, and you know you're going to need an outfitter for your hunt, give us a call. We work with hundreds of outfitters across western North America. We don't just simply work with any outfitter that calls us, that has a hunt to book, or things like that.

We realize our names, our reputation, and ultimately your hunt and tag is what's most important. We do the research. We help you find the guys that we know will produce in the unit you've drawn a great tag in. So, give us a call, trust our experience, trust our expertise to help steer you in the right direction of guys or gals that you should consider hiring for the tag that you've drawn. If you don't draw enough tags, or you just simply want to use booking a hunt with an outfitter with a guaranteed tag, whether it be a landowner tag, outfitter tag, as a way to supplement your hunting schedule, give us a call on those as well. We help represent hunts all over the western Canadian provinces, Alaska, all the western states as well. So, if you're looking for doll sheep, stone sheep, brown bear, black bear,

deer elk, antelope, moose sheep, goat, everything in between, we can help you. Start off with a brief visit about what you're looking for, price point, species, type of hunt, horseback, backpack, all the different variables that go into that. Glad to help you out. We've got Jeff John, Jason Carter, myself, Adam Bronson, all willing to help visit with you about that, to help you fill up your hunting schedule with the type of hunts you got that you're looking for, maybe that you can't just draw.