EP 22: Arizona Bighorn Sheep with Arizona Desert Outfitters

These units have always had big rams. Units that have two or more tags. You know, slightly smaller bases, unique flair. And then it had a die off and it closed down. Anything to do with Western big games.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors podcast, powered by Under Armour.

Hey everybody, Jason Carter here and Adam Bronson of Epic Outdoors doing another podcast. We're going to be talking heavy about Arizona desert sheep and Rocky Mountain bighorns this go around. We've got those applications due here shortly. We've got three different guests on with us. We're super excited to visit with them. Before we dive in, we do want to thank Under Armour for sponsoring this podcast. As well as, you know, some of the different projects we have going on here at Epic. We're working on some new, fun, innovative things that are going to be coming out. Super appreciative of them and their support of the hunting community. And all that they do and have got going on. So, anyway, dealt with Under Armour for a lot of years at the Ridge Reaper TV program. We're continuing to work with that on YouTube and a lot of different avenues there.

So, the name of the game is drawing tags out there. And so, we do want to know everything that you draw. It doesn't matter how easy it is to draw or tough. We want to know about it. We can help you one way or another. We've got a member draw database where we could send you a list of members who've hunted in the past. You know, we've got a lot of experience here in the office across the West. If it's something that you've drawn that we have experience in, we'll definitely want to help you with that as well. Or find an outfitter for it. That's right. These tags, in many cases, are worth tens. Or, in some cases, hundreds of thousands of dollars. If you were to have to go out and buy them on the open market, so to speak. So, we realize that applying for a lot of years is only part of it. When you draw the tag, that's when it really starts to maximize what you have.

So, I encourage you to make the most of it. If you're going to do it on your own, call in. Get an EPIC member experience database list from us. Get prepared. Have gear questions. We'll give you our take on it and whatnot. If you need an outfitter for the unit that you've drawn, we work with the best. We stay on top of that. But, we want to only work with reputable people in the units that you draw. So, we stay on top of that. A lot of research. We write the magazines. So, that allows us to stay in touch with outfitters that are killing the best stuff on the specific units in the West. Yeah. So, to get in touch with us, go to epicoutdoors.com. You can email us. Of course, Jason at epicoutdoors.com or Adam at epicoutdoors.com. General questions, info at epicoutdoors.com as well as 435-263-0777. Anyway, as we get started here, we've got Eric Hunt, Troy Scott, and Travis Scott.

They're all partners in the Arizona Desert Outfitters. And super, super excited to get this thing started with them. They're a wealth of knowledge in many different units and have done it for years and are just energetic guys that get the job done in the hills. And so, how's it going down there? You guys have hit 110 down there yet? We had a little cool down and we had a nice little rainstorm. What was it? Two days ago. So, which is, we had a lot of wind and then some rain came in and kind of got everything wet. So, it's going to be real good for, you know, more feed going into June, the hottest part of the month. So, all the animals are going to have plenty of food to eat. Well, yeah. If you haven't hit it yet, it's coming fast, I'm sure. So, anyway, maybe just to get started and maybe we'll just go through each of you real quick.

Tell us a little bit about yourselves, your age, you know, where you're from, if you're an Arizona resident's lifelong, what you do for work, if you just guide an outfit year long, or what got you into sheep hunting, guiding, things like that. Maybe, Eric, why don't you start off? Okay, sounds good. I'm 35 years old and I was born and raised in Wickenburg, Arizona, which is in southwestern Arizona, Region 4. I'm married to my beautiful wife, Caitlin, who I want to mention has shot a 180-inch desert ram. Yeah, it's a giant. We'll get to that in a bit, but yeah, I remember. Yeah.

I am a captain paramedic with the fire department. I've been doing that for 14 years. And with my schedule there, I work two days on, four days off, so it gives me plenty of time to get out and do scouting and hunting. I got my start in sheep hunting in 2007 when I won the Arizona Super Raffle. So I shot a beautiful desert ram up in the Virgin River Canyon in 13B. Wow, that's awesome. So right away, you know, like you guys know, after your first sheep hunt, you definitely get the bug. Absolutely. So in 2009, I was fortunate enough to kill a Rocky Mountain again on a raffle tag. I went to Alberta, experienced a great hunt up there, 21 days, and killed my ram, an 11-year-old ram, on the last morning of the hunt. Wow. I'll bet you were freaking out coming down to the wire on that thing. Yeah, it was getting to be a nail-biter. And, you know, we rode in.

It was warm weather, and by the end of it, it was down to negative 15 and three feet of snow. And, you know, it was me and another hunter, and we were able to find two legal rams that last day. Together? You killed them both? Yep. Same group. Wow. And made for a great story. So that was 2009. I met Travis and Troy right around that same time, and we partnered up, and we've been sheep hunting ever since. That's awesome. Well, your first ram, Eric, tell them a little bit about the first ram that you guided. Yeah, so 2010 was the first hunt that I guided, and that was in 44A East. And that was typically known for a 150s type unit. That was the average. And I guided Daryl Krantz, and we had a couple big rams on camera that we were attempting to locate. Couldn't find them, couldn't find them. And two days before the season, I located the ram, one of the target rams.

He was with a smaller ram and a herd of ewes. And we harvested him opening morning. Daryl made about a 260-yard shot, and he ended up being a giant ram, 184 and 5A's cross. Geez. Wow. I remember that ram. Unheard of, yeah. Tons of mass. I remember. For Western Arizona. And even, you know, when we got to him, we had to do a little bit of tracking, and Troy got to him first, and he definitely grew on us. And, uh... Started hooting and hollering a little bit over there in the chaguaro? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, Troy was hooting, and I didn't really know what I was really looking at. Anyway. You were looking at a spike. You were looking at a spike. Yeah, I was looking at a giant ram.

Well, that's awesome. It was so heavy that we, I mean, we really underestimated his score, because at that time, our, I call it my ram-o-meter, it didn't go up that high. You know, we were killing 170s-type rams, and so we weren't calibrated to judge rams that are, you know, much over 178. And, um, you know, I'm sitting there looking at him and thinking, well, yeah, he's got 36-inch horns, and so on and so forth. And I'm kind of running some numbers in my head as we're taping him out. And I keep coming up with, like, 182, 183, and I'm looking around at everybody going, there's no way this thing's that big, you know? Yeah. And, uh, so we got him back to camp, and, of course, we put the tape on him, and the tape stretched out, what, I think it was 38 inches, and I just, just, I couldn't believe it. I just kind of had to go shut down by myself.

Yeah, I just walked off in the desert by myself in total disbelief. Well, it's always good to be surprised that way than the other way, so that's, uh, you know, a good way to, was that like the first ram? Then you guys actually, with Arizona Desert Outfitters guided, you said. That's pretty awesome. And, but, uh, I'm sure Troy and Travis, you tell us a little bit about yourselves, too, and what you guys did prior to that point and starting that first hunt as Arizona Desert Outfitters. Did you, I guess, Troy, I'll go to you first. Do you, I know you're a Western Arizona guy, both you brothers, aren't you, from, I don't know if you're born and raised there or whatnot. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, we were, uh, well, go ahead, Troy.

Well, um, actually, we grew up hunting and fishing on the Colorado River there on the Arizona-California border, and, uh, we grew up duck hunting, goose hunting, deer hunting, and learning how to deer hunt in the desert. And, uh, that's the only thing we knew. In 1978, my mom drew a sheep tag, and, uh, she wound up taking a, uh, you know, a nice ram for that unit. At the time, 43A and 43B was all one unit, so it was just unit 43. And, uh, my mom, Karam, and, uh, Travis and I were on that hunt. Of course, I was about, I don't know, eight, eight, nine years old. Travis was about five or six. And, um, you know, we didn't really understand. Yeah, okay. Yeah, we didn't really understand, you know, the magnitude of a bighorn sheep. And then in, um, 1986, we're in New Orleans, Louisiana, and my mom called me. We're at a hotel.

We're on vacation, and my mom called me and said, hey, um, I've got outfitters calling me right now. Um, they're saying that you drew a bighorn sheep tag in, uh, 41W. And, um, that was my second year of flying. That was before the bonus point system. And, of course, um, you know, I really didn't understand the importance of a sheep tag because I was 16 years old. And, um, so we went out there hunting with my dad, and Travis was with us. And it was, uh, back then it was a 15-day hunt. And we basically, on the entire hunt, be seen on the, what was it, Travis? The first day or the second day when we seen that ram on that skyline? Second morning. Yeah, second morning. And, uh, so here we are. We're trying to field judge this ram. Uh, Travis spots it up on the skyline. And my dad looked over, you know, where, it's this total pandemonium.

And my dad had gone and boughten a, uh, a Bushnell, uh, spotting scope with the tripod. That's only about eight inches tall. You know, the kind that you put on a bench. Dang lucky to have, dang lucky to have a tripod back then. Dang lucky to have a tripod. Yeah, yeah. I mean, Travis is 13. Travis is 13 carrying your water. And you're 16. Yeah. It's crazy. And so here we are. We're trying to field judge this ram. We don't know what the hell we're even looking at. Are we going to field judge a ram, you know? Hell, what are we even field judging? So my dad lays down on the ground and he's kind of laying on his side looking through the scope, you know? Yeah. And trying to focus the scope and all that. And me and Travis were going, hey, let me see. I want to look at him. I want to look at him. And so here we all are.

We're all laying on the ground trying to look through the scope at a ram that's about 600 yards away. And he went over the mountain. And we thought, oh, well, shit, we'll just run over there and get up there. We'll find him and, you know, we'll shoot him. But he disappeared. We never seen another ram for the entire hunt. Wow. Come on. For almost the entire hunt. And toward the end of the hunt, we never seen any more sheep. And it rained a lot that year. So anyhow, my dad wound up hiring an outfitter. And then we had a bunch of volunteers come into camp. And on the last day of season, at 1225, I pulled the trigger on the same ram that we've seen the second day. Wow. Within a couple of hundred yards from where we had originally seen him. Wow. And I was so excited. And I didn't know about score back then. But I had one number that I wanted my ram to make. And that was 162 net.

And that would make the Arizona State book. And we pulled the tape on him. He scored 162. And I'll tell you what, I was on top of cloud nine. And he had 36-inch horns with like, I think, 13-and-a-half-inch bases. But he looked a lot like a stone seep or a dull seep, the way he was kept out. Wow. Jeez. But really a beautiful ram. And to this day, you know, I've been on a lot bigger sheep. And I've been on a lot of, you know, help guiding and assisting. But still to this day, that ram that I killed when I was 16 years old, I would not, I wouldn't trade him for another ram. Because I almost got kicked out of school on that hunt. Because I missed so many days. And I was so far behind on my homework and everything else. But nonetheless, at 1225, December 15th, the job was done. So we took it from the first day all the way to the last day. Well, that's pretty awesome.

You know, to hunt desert sheep at 16 or whatever you said you was, there's nobody that can appreciate that fully, obviously. And, you know, even back then in an era, whatever you said, it was the late 80s, especially. It's not like it is now if you were to draw the tag. And fast forward, and I think it was just, what, two years ago, Travis, maybe three, you drew, maybe it was that same unit, if my memory serves me correct. Didn't you draw that same unit yourself? Yeah, yeah, two years ago, I drew that same unit. And it was, you know, it was kind of funny to go down there after, what, 1986 to 2015, you know, go down there. What is that, 29 years later or what have you? After learning so much more, you know, the ballgame really changed. I mean, it did. It was a tough hunt for all of us.

You know, we got down there, and all the wives' tales that we heard from old-timers back in the day and what have you, we dang sure followed all of them back in the early days. But through it all, we went back down on my hunt and just had a phenomenal hunt. We wound up, I wound up taking my ram with a bow on the second day. It was a 14th ram that we saw. And really, to be honest, I mean, I blinked my eyes and the hunt was over. And it's the only regret that I have is I, and that's really my biggest piece of advice to anybody who does get a tag. Absorb it. Take it all in. You know, because you never get to do this again. No, you don't. And I can feel, too. Like, I was 16 when I drew a buffalo tag here in Utah, and, of course, I'll never get that tag again. And it is kind of a shame, like, Troy, like what you were talking about.

You know, at 16, can you fully appreciate it and make the most of it? And, of course, you know, Travis, now you guys are sitting down with not just tripods. We're talking big tripods and big binoculars and knowing exactly, you know, going in with a plan of attack and maybe even hunting named rams from years past, you know. Why don't you chime in a little bit here, Travis? We need to get it from you, too, Troy, for a minute. But just what do you do for regular, everyday living there, Travis? I'm a concrete finisher, concrete contractor, dirt contractor. I work with Troy. Me and Troy are partners. I cover the concrete in, and Troy covers the dirt in and the underground utilities. Oh, that's awesome. I started guiding full-time in 1995, and I guided full-time up until two years ago. So, most of my time was in New Mexico and Arizona, of course.

But, I mean, that used to be my life, 10 months out of the year. But after doing that so long, you know, when you hunt that often, that much, it really starts to wear on you. You really start missing certain aspects of life. And you feel like you're having to go to work when you're hunting. And it really does, it really takes something that means so much to you. And it kind of makes it where it's just like, okay, it's another day at work. So, on your days off, you know, most plumbers have a leaking sink. Most carpenters have an add-on that is not quite finished or a house. Most mechanics have three or four broke cars in their yard, you know. So, I mean, I was glad to get back into the concrete. I'd much rather do concrete than guide 10 months out of the year anymore. And so, where do you guys, are you guys living out where you guys grew up? Where do you actually live?

Erickson, Wickenburg, where do you guys call home right now? Well, right now, we live in Salome, Arizona, which is, oh, I don't know about, almost in the center of the state. It's about 45 miles west of Wickenburg. But Draven and I grew up right on the Arizona-California border in a little town called Ehrenberg, Arizona. And then we basically grew up in the construction industry. My dad was a contractor, and so I just kind of, you know, I used to work with him, you know, when I was in high school and stuff like that. And so, you know, as I got older and everything, you know, the heavy equipment operator, and then I got my contractor's license. And then on the side, you know, we would, you know, do the, well, for a while, Travis and I had Southwest hunting adventures. And I used to work with him on that. And then, of course, we morphed into Arizona Desert Outfitters.

And pretty much all we do anymore is just Desert Blue Horn Seat. That's a great introduction. And, you know, obviously you guys are all living in fairly close proximity to a lot of the units that you guys like to guide in. And we'll get to those specifics in here in just a minute. But maybe briefly, I'll just explain a little bit about the Arizona draw system. And, you know, it is the application season there. Application deadline is June 13th. Arizona looks at both your first and second choices in the draw. You're allowed to put in for one or two. You can do two deserts, two Rockies, or one of each, whatever you want. They're just sheet points in Arizona. You don't get rocky points and don't get desert points. When you draw a tag for that species, your points are taken from you. And you can start on the other species. The draw first is conducted statewide.

Arizona reserves 20% of the tags statewide for applicants with the maximum bonus points. And that will come into play here maybe in a few minutes when we talk about a few units where those maximum point holders that are remaining are holding out for. It's pretty obvious some of those units that are always going to those maximum point holders. But talk about those in just a minute. But from an overall perspective in the state, I know you guys are keyed in in some of those western Arizona units. But, you know, there's desert sheep literally from the northern border with Utah in northwest Arizona all the way to the Mexican border. And, you know, not as much obviously in the eastern side of Arizona. But the whole western side of the state, there's some gaps.

But you've got stuff like, you know, unit 12s and 13s where, you know, Eric hunted up there on his raffle tag down through the 15s and 16s. And, you know, all those units are known as the Nelson Bighorn units, known for, you know, slightly smaller bases, unique flair. And then we get to the units down south, you know, and some of the 20s and 30s and 40s where we get the Mexicana subspecies that really is where the giant rams are probably what most people think of when they think of Arizona. So, you know, maybe real briefly, tell us about a little bit of experience. Now, Jason and I have spent some time in 13B and A and 12s up here. And there's some really nice rams to be had. Generally, a little bit better drawing odds. But really, as we study them, which we do because they're close to us up here in Utah,

they're not tremendously better than a lot of what we'd label as the better trophy units down south. So, you know, and then I know moving down to the 15s, 15D has always been a perennial popular unit until maybe just the last year or two. So maybe, I don't know, Eric or whoever, maybe since you spent some time up there in 13B as well as 15D, you all probably have there. Tell us a little bit about your perspective on current conditions in some of those units. And, you know, I know there's been a die-off in 15D and things are kind of bottomed out. Tag numbers have been cut down. But, Amy, give your thoughts on that, Eric. Okay. 13B, I haven't been up there since I did that hunt. But from the guys that I've talked to, it sounds like the sheep herd is doing good up there. Typically, you know, produces 150, 160 class rams with the occasional book ram, 170 plus.

15D has taken a hit the last year, and they've been pretty worried. I know they reduced quite a few tags last year. They had a pneumonia outbreak going through the 15s and 15D, and it had just come back from the last die-off. And the last message I got from one of the Game and Fish employees up there was they think the die-off is almost over, but they have lost, they estimated, over 50% of their sheep herd. And they're starting to finally hear about people finding the heads of dead rams from up there. So I don't know how that is. I know last year they still took a few good rams out of there, but it's still in trouble. Well, and I know we've talked to some guys, you know, maybe a little bit on the 13B hunt that you were talking about. You know, as you indicated, there were some dang nice rams been taken on the top end the last three years.

And, you know, of course it borders our virgin unit here in Utah. But on the south end of that 13B north unit, I know, you know, there hasn't been hardly any pressure at all. And so it's interesting. You just never know where some of these big rams could come from or maybe where some of them are dying of old age, you know. Real quick, maybe I'll just start with a real broad overview of some of the eastern Arizona stuff. That's where primarily, with the exception of Unit 6, some of the Rocky Mountain Bighorns are located in Unit 27, 28. Just seems like they're doing incredible right now. Yeah, seeing a lot of great, you know, 180, 185, even a little bit better Rockies coming out of Arizona now, which I know, Travis and Troy, you're in the Rocky hat now. So, hey, hopefully one of those comes your way.

But regarding the desert units on that end of the state, Unit 22, 24, you know, Aravipa and Unit 31, 37A, 28, they've all got some big, big rams in them. But just one thing to point out to people to keep in mind is some of those units, 22 most notably, almost always has been going to max point holders when they run that 20% draw. So, when the 80% random draw comes around, a lot of times there's nothing left. So, it's nice to dream big, but be aware it doesn't have to stay that way every year. It could have a random tab slip through, but it hasn't been. So, just bear that in mind. If you're going to put in in Arizona and only put, say, the two very best trophy producing units in the state, you may put in for something, if you don't have max points, that you have zero chance to get. That's right.

And it is interesting to note that a lot of residents, you know, there's a lot more residents that have max points than non-residents. And so, anyway, those are, you know, generally drawn by residents and in the max point tier, like you said. And so, in essence, even though they've got two tags and non-residents can apply for units that have two or more tags, it's really possibly that it's not available in theory to non-residents, you know, like you said, unless you have max points. And so, it's not even, it's kind of a waste of a choice if you have less than max. That's right. Units like 22 South or, you know, there's several units that we'll get into, but that one especially. I mean, of course, you've been in there and there's some obvious giants in there. Yep, that's right. So, you know, as we maybe now shift gears to the western part of the state,

just want to briefly talk about that eastern side of the state. But why don't you guys get into a little bit, maybe each of you taking a turn or two, and go through some of the units that you guys really love and spend your time in and kill some of the giant rams that you've been knocking down. And I'll let you just open it up to you three to break down some of the western Arizona desert sheep units for us. Go ahead, Trav.

All my units are secret. No, honestly, you know, I think that these big rams have always been in western Arizona. If you look back at the COFA's back in the, you know, 1965 when they first opened the COFA up, Louis Dees and Bill Rudd both killed, what was it, a 184 and 186 on the same year. The 186 was, or it was 187, it was Jerry Nicklaus the next year killed the 186. These units have always had big rams. And by these units, like, line them out for us. Are we talking 44B South? I mean... 44B South, 44B North. Of course, 44B South is where the legendary granddad came from, which was kind of the main core breeder for the Aravaipa herd, you know? I mean, those sheep in Aravaipa 22, 24, those sheep originated from western Arizona, from basically the COFA complex, which would be 44B North, 44B South, 45A, B and C, 41 West, 41E.

Most of those sheep came from those areas. But the areas have been hit. Some years are good years. A lot of years are tough, dry years. I mean, a lot of people say, well, it's going to be a dry year down there. Well, the difference between a dry year and a wet year is about an inch and a half of rain. You know? I mean... So we get that in an afternoon. One rainstorm. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, a wet year is four inches, and a dry year is two inches. I mean, it's really cut... There's a lot more gray out here in the desert, a lot more gray area there as far as what is drought and what is not, because pretty much it's always a drought. But that being said, I'm really anxious to see what starts happening back in the COFA again. You know? I mean, without the COFA, we wouldn't have the sheep in Arizona that we have today. And I'm super excited to see that herd get back up.

The Lions have been under control for quite some time. Brian Jansen has done a fantastic job, along with Arizona Game of Fish, you know, getting that back under control. I'm super excited about all those areas inside the COFA and then the outline from, you know, 44 B South especially. I'm super excited every time that I get to hunt that unit. I'm just... I'm as pumped as I can be to go in there, just as I would be going to 45 A, B, or C. Yeah. Oh, yeah. For sure. And then I know that 44 B North seems like the cream's come off of it a little bit, and maybe it's just stats on paper. I know we've talked to you guys, I've talked to Troy about it, and maybe you feel the same way. What's your feelings on that? Well, I was going to say 44 B North, plain and simple. They've had a lot of tags for quite some time now.

And, you know, you get people going in there shooting a 6- to 7-year-old ram that looks big. He's not going to have the chance to grow old. Yeah. You know? I mean, I... So do you think they're still there? I was fearful. There's a 180 ram there? Do you think there's still that potential? All right. No. No, we had two hunters in there last year. We had two non-residents drawn there. And we spent a lot of time in there during the summer. We ran cameras. We did a lot of preseason scouting. Brooke Stilts and I did. And Game and Fish actually flew their survey last year, and they flew a capture survey. And they didn't find a Class 4 ram. And, like, during our scouting time, I mean, we looked over a lot of country, looked over a lot of rams. We just weren't seeing that size. I mean, we were happy to try and find a book ram. And we ended up finding them.

But it wasn't until the day before the season we found a group of 10 rams. And we ended up taking two rams right in that 170 class. But other than that, I highly doubt there's a 180 ram in there. Gotcha. I mean, all through history, there's only been two killed out of that unit since 1953. And that was Ken Millers and Vince Smith in 2014. You know, I mean, 180 is a big, bigger ram. I didn't mean to throw that around like they grow on squirrels down there, even though, because since you don't got trees. But, yeah, 180 just kind of rolls off the tongue when you talk about giant areas. Well, we're always just interested in those giants as we all are. And, you know, at some point we're going to ask you where one lives. But for now, we'll just keep going. That's like all those 400-inch bolts that everybody sees in the Gila and everybody sees it in every unit in Arizona. Yeah, exactly.

So do you guys, between the three of you, do each of you have like, hey, there's my little pet unit. I like these two. And maybe Troy likes these two better. Do you all like the same one or two units, but you do four or five or six of the others around it? Or tell me a little bit about what, you know, you've talked about the 44s and, you know, the 43s and 45 COFA units and the 41s. But what do you like best, Eric, where you spend a lot of your time? And same down the line with you, Troy and Travis. Well, we kind of, we all kind of hunt the same units together. But, like, coming before the season, we try to stay ahead of the curve. A lot of people go year to year and they look at what was killed last year, and that's usually where you get a lot of applicants. So we try to stay ahead of the curve and look at units that have the genetics and haven't had a big ram killed there for a while.

And we'll kind of break it up before the season, you know, when we start our summer scouting. So I'll talk to Troy and Travis and Tom and Brooks and all our guys and say, okay, you know, I usually cover unit 42, 44. I'll cover the Plamosas this year, 44B South, and then Troy and Travis like to break it up. And that's kind of usually what we do each year. And then once we get the hunters, then we kind of just kind of disperse everybody. And, but we all can hunt any unit. Yeah. And then do you guys, I mean, how far south do you guys tend to push? I mean, I know down, I know 43B, you guys have spent time there. That unit seems to be, you know, doing fairly well. Lots of sheep. It's a huge unit. I know some of that's easy to access. Other of it is just rugged mountain stuff that can't be getting hunted that hard. And then even south of there, down into some of those 40 units to the south.

Do you guys go clear to Mexico and make it back now and then or what? We've been right on the fence. Yeah. We did a hunt down in 40 B. Canaja altars last year. And really, you know, that mountain range is definitely different than anything that we've hunted here and, you know, further up north. It's just basically a big pile of boulders. Wow. And, but it's a tough hunt. And, you know, it's just those rams, they, it seemed like they were either way up on the top or they were a quarter mile, a half a mile out in the flat. You know, and, you know, not much in between. So it was, and the weather is quite a bit warmer down there too. Sure. There's some good, there's some good rams been coming out of there. What do you, what did you leave? Did you leave anything good down there?

Yeah, we definitely left. Crickets. It's kind of crickets. I'm hearing silence. You know that, that hula.

Well, we had one last year. We had a big ram in the Tanahas and we ended up booking a hunter and we were, we were very excited about it. And Ken couldn't start his hunt until December 10th. Oh. And the other hunter, a kid from Yuma ended up taking the ram and he was, I think 178. He was a giant ram, 16 inch bases. Yeah. But there was some good rams in there and the gila and that Tanaha range, they joined together. And that sheep population is booming right now. I know we went and set cameras in there last summer. And I think in a month and a half, we went back and checked them and our, our cards were full. Weren't they, Troy? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There was a couple of the water holes where the ground is, the ground was just completely littered with sheep droppings. There was, no matter where you stepped, you were stepping on a sheep droppings. Wow.

It looked like somebody had fertilized for a garden. So, do they move in and out of that 46B a little bit or? They segregated from that.

No, I haven't hunted any of that. Yeah. We, over the years, we've just, you know, mainly stayed up north, you know, basically in the, the 44s and the 41s and the 43s. That's primarily where we... It was a big day, though, back in 2005 and we killed a 173-inch ram in there. But I, I, I tell you, those Cabeza hunts and those Southern Arizona hunts, they're not just for anybody. And when you see those special notes, they're, they're on that unit about it being an extreme hunt. Yeah. And that's not to be taken lightly. Yeah. I mean, those are tough hunts. Oh, yeah. And it's not just, not just that, hey, you got to backpack in because a lot of people think, oh, I'm a strong, it's December, it's not hot, I can backpack anywhere, I'm in shape. It's, there's not any free water for you. Yeah.

So, you've got to have stuff a lot of times, you know, supplemented with mules or something like that to, to be able to just get enough supplies or water in there and so you can actually hunt. Am I wrong or right there? Yeah. And, and then you better hide it really well because if you go in there ahead of time and you stash like water for your mules or what have you, you may come back a week later and all of it's gone. There, there is so much illegal activity through there that, I mean, they, they tell you like they're, they're at the Cabeza headquarters. When you leave your vehicle, leave water and food outside your vehicle. And what that's going to do, it's going to keep your vehicle from getting the windows busted out and somebody getting in there to get your water and your food, you know? I mean, it, it, that, that has a whole new challenge. Yeah.

Baiting the illegals away from your truck. Yeah. You know, I mean, for all intents and purposes. And I know guys are, you know, hunting those units pretty aggressive. Of course, we've even had friends of ours like Brian Martin, extreme backpacking some of that country in the 46B and, and, you know, coming out with a nice sheet, but, but working dang hard for it. And, you know, of course, some guys are, you know, taking spy camps in with horses and whatnot, but that's pretty aggressive, but it does have good genetics. And of course, Adam and I are always thinking maybe we're tougher than we are and we want to go do it and kill some giant, you know? And there's, there, there are rams down there that people don't know about. There are big rams there. There are great genetics down there. You know, 46A, which is now split in half. We hunted the west side.

We hunted the growlers and we spent some time in all the build phase, but the, I believe the unit record for 46A is 186, but they, they have, there's a half a dozen rams that have come out of there that are right around in that 180 mark. I mean, there's, well, well, and the Coons ram was found dead, not far from there, you know? I mean, it definitely has the genetics. That ram haunts Adam and I. I mean, we, you know, of course, what a giant. And then, you know, the 186 was killed by Marvin James, if I'm not mistaken. And of course, he's, he's, he's since died, but what a super guy. And I, we always went and admired his ram. I mean, he had a full body mount there and we just, just in awe, you know? And of course, Marvin makes it sound or made it sound super easy and you'd be dumb if you didn't kill anything 180 plus.

And so we were just, you know, thinking, thinking it was just easy pickings. And then you find out, no, it, it took a lot more effort than maybe he let out, let on. I did want to talk about the 41 East on the Eagle tails a little bit. I know on paper, it shows not being so great. I hunted it with my dad years ago and mid 2000s, I want to say anyway, ended up taking 176 incher and, and it was good back then. It was really good. And I know on paper, it's not showing so good. Are you guys seeing any signs of promise in the Eagle tails there? Well, we're going to be scouting up this year, you know, putting cameras up and everything. And that's kind of what we like to do is, as Eric said before, stay ahead of the curve. You know, we like to, like 41 East, we like to go into those units that, you know, on paper, they're terrible, but they have the genetics.

And, you know, in the past, it's been really good. And the thing with a lot of these units is they start to, they, they set a trend. And once that trend gets started, it, it, people have a tendency to do the same thing year in and year out, year in and year out. And like, so if, if for four or five years in a row and everyone says, you know what, there's no 170 rams or 180 rams in that unit. The people that get the tags, they go in there and, you know, they have a mindset of, I'm just going to go in here and shoot the first 160 ram I see. And they're not hunting the unit, you know, all the way through. They're not giving the unit a chance. And that's kind of what happened in 44B North, where for years, that was pretty much considered a low ranking unit. And if you drew the tag, yeah, you know, 150 average.

And then once, like, we started hunting in there and started pulling some big rams out of there. All of a sudden, everyone's eyes wake up. And now everybody that's applying there, they're all strictly trophy hunting. People are holding out for the trophies. And there's only a certain amount of trophies in every unit before, you know, eventually the green's taken out the top. And, you know, and you're down to, you know, killing six, seven-year-old rams. And, you know, even rams that are eight or nine years old that aren't breaking over much over 160. Well, and that's what Adam and I have talked a lot about is, you know, when you start issuing these four and five tag-plus type areas, you do have the potential of knocking off the top, especially hiring good outfitters like yourselves and guys that know what they're doing.

But if you do get into these low tag number units, like, for example, the Eagle Tails or the 41 West, you know, you end up with one and two tags depending on the year total. A lot of what's on paper is a product of who draws the tags. And, you know, are they serious? That's exactly right. Yeah, are they serious guys? Well, look at our 41W, like 41W last year. If you didn't know that Chappo was in there, it was, you know, why did you even apply for 41W? Well, I got told that as soon as I called down to the Game of Fish office and I was trying to get a little bit more information on access and what have you. And they're exact, we're just, we're all sitting here trying to figure out why you applied for 41W. Well, I knew about a Ram down there from three years previous and I kept it under my hat, you know, because there was only one tag.

I mean, it's not like I cheated anybody out of that by any means, but there was one big Ram. That was it, you know? I mean, but it takes that ahead of time looking to go in there before you make that opinion. And you brought up a good point about the Eagle Pills. 05, 06 were great years there on the lamb recruitment. So if you're looking at that, for those years of 05, 06, those Rams are 11, 12-year-old Rams now. Now, in Western Arizona, it takes a Ram 11 or 12 years to get up into that mid-170s or better range a lot of times. Well, there was a lot of Rams born at that time, but they're not where everybody else looks. If you want to find a 12-year-old Ram, you've got to look where other people did, because obviously he wasn't standing where the other Rams were that already got shot when they were seven. Yeah, that's a good point.

And I, you know, these units, you know, we're looking at them on a map, and, you know, they're separated by power line or road or whatever. But like you guys alluded to earlier, this part of Arizona is just all desert. And there's really no barriers for sheep. And they can wander, as we well know, Rams will go long, long distances. And so all of a sudden a Ram shows up somewhere, and you're like, where'd that thing come from? Well, it literally was one Ram that did a walkabout a few years ago or that year or whatever, and, you know, got killed somewhere. And like, where did he come from? And, you know, some of the units, you know, that you guys are hunting, that's probably going on. You mentioned the Chopo Ram last year. You guys helped Clay Goldman kill. And I appreciate you guys submitting that to us for our story for our June-July issue. Just an awesome Ram. And Clay's an awesome guy.

And can't wait to see what he works up on his taxidermy with that one, because I'm sure he'll do that Ram justice. And, you know, like you said, it takes one Ram like that to get you applying there. I mean, he's nearly, you know, 180 caliber Ram. And, hey, yeah, that's what you're there for. You know, and I know, Eric, you mentioned it earlier, your wife. I remember maybe it's been three years ago or two or three years ago. 2015. Yeah. We, you know, we text when charges start getting hit. And you'd hit a charge, and you're fired up because you had a bunch of points. And I think she had three or four or something like that. So the odds of her drawing probably wasn't as good as you. But lo and behold, she got it. And you made the most of it. Maybe tell us just briefly about her Ram. If I remember right, it was in a, it's either a one tag year or a two tag year. I can't remember that year.

It was a two tag year, yeah. And that was unit 48. And that's another unit that historically has produced a lot of giant Rams. And then it had to die off and it closed down. And I believe in 2014 it reopened, had one tag. Unit started to get better. And so that was kind of on our radar. I believe Travis applied there too, first choice. And so when I had that hit on my card, automatically, you know, I'm in the 20-something point range. I'm thinking it's me. You know, I'm excited. And when results come out, I checked myself first and it said not drawn. And my jaw dropped. And we happened to be in Wisconsin at the time. And I'm thinking, oh my gosh, Caitlin drew, you know. And so three points she drew. Three points. Wow. Three points. Yep. And so she was tag number one. And, you know, it was one of those units I hadn't hunted. Travis and Troy hadn't hunted.

You know, there wasn't a lot of information on it because it was closed for 10 years. So, you know, we just kind of went to the drawing board and started scouting. And 40A is an immense unit. You know, a lot of mountain ranges. And the sheep are scattered. You know, a lot of rolling hill, rolling country. And so, you know, we kind of narrowed down where we wanted to hunt. And it turns out we had a picture sent to us from one of the Berry Goldwater Range guys. And it was her ram. And I believe it was in 2013 of when he had that picture taken. And during her hunt, it just happened to be one of those years where those rams were rutting pretty hard. And those rams were on the move. And so we didn't, you know, we saw a lot of rams. Saw, you know, some rams we considered taking. And we had a tough time. We backed out. Took a break. She went back to school. She's a teacher. We came back.

We were able to locate her ram. And he was a very cagey ram. We had stalks on him twice before. And for whatever reason, he knew something was up. And he would get up and get out of there. And so it would take us a couple days to relocate him. Finally, that last day, he met up with another big group of sheep with some other rams. And they were head cracking and everything. And we went in, planned our stock, and were able to get 250 yards. And Caitlin made the most of it and killed a giant ram. He's 180 and 7 ace grows. And Adam and I are just wondering what's left. That's all. You guys are whacking and stacking them like cordwood down there, these 180 rams, you know. But I know we're minimizing that. It's in the right area. It borders all that good country. There's a lot of country that's not hunted and can't be hunted.

So there's just a lot of interest there, you know, over the years at least anyway. And I'm sure there's other good rams or good potential depending on the year. You know, I know there's some good rams in there. Last year, I think they killed a 140s ram and a 160s ram. But the genetics are just great. I believe that year, the other ram taken was a 6-year-old ram. And it was 178 gross at 6 years old. Well, you know, as we move forward, I just wanted to talk about 43B a little bit. I did talk about it with Troy a little bit. But whoever can chime in. I know, you know, of course, you guys are kind of excited about that one as well with some 160, 170-plus rams. Even maybe 100 and approaching that 80 potential. But jump on that one with me for a minute. Just visit about 43B a little bit. The biggest thing about 43B is you've got to keep your finger off the trigger.

Because, I mean, literally, there are so many rams in there. And there's a lot in that mid-150s to low-160s range that you kind of, after 5, 6, 7 days of seeing the same size over and over. And now you've seen 52 rams in four days. You kind of start getting the feeling every ram in this unit is this way. And a lot of times people, I feel, get, I guess, burnout because every ram looks to be that size. It's a very difficult unit to go in and do summertime scouting. I mean, it's excruciatingly hot. I mean, many days it'll be 128 degrees down there in the summer. Who wants to hike five miles into the wilderness and put a camera on a waterhole? Let's change that. Let's just change that. Like, who can? Who can? Yes. Yes. Yes, exactly. But really, I feel, and Troy and I have talked about it a lot, and Eric and I, all of us have talked about it.

There's a lot of country in 43B that never gets lift at. And there are some big rams in 43B. It used to be 43B. Most of those rams were smooth horn rams. You didn't get a lot of overlay. But it seems that about the late 90s, when the COFA herd started going down, well, the 43B, Trigo herd, and a chocolate herd started going up. So if you put that together, that tells you a lot of those rams moved out of the COFA and went over into 43B. Now you're starting to see some big rams, good overlay, 15.5-inch bases occasionally. And I think when you combine those kind of genetics with that kind of inaccessible terrain and a decent amount of rain, you have all the recipe to make a mega ram. You mentioned the COFAs, which, you know, maybe real quickly summarize the 45 ABCs, which one you think's, I mean, they've all got the potential. They're just boundaries. No big deer there, by the way.

No big deer there either? Speak. No, no, no. Well, and I know we talked. Nobody can go deer hunting there. And I know we brought that up. And, of course, you know, last time you and I talked, we did talk about some of those giants. And I'm going to have to go down there and hunt them at some point. But it sounds like they're fairly unhunnable, you know, so. Yep, yep, yep. They're all dead. But as far as sheep, give us a quick rundown on the COFAs on that 45A, B, and C.

Troy, do one of you guys want to answer that or you want me to? Yeah, go ahead. Back in 2008, there was only one tag in the COFA.

They're in 45A. It got a lot of line pressure. A lot of the older rams were dying of old age. A lot of the lambs were getting paid up by the cat. You know, we really saw a big decline in there. But the thing about the COFA, especially 45A, there is so much country in there. There are so many pockets that these rams really can grow without people ever finding them. Most of it is totally wilderness. There's a system of about four or five roads, basically the Wilt Banks Road, the MSC and T Tower Road, COFA Queen.

So there's really not a lot of access in there, but it's extremely rugged.

For the sheep to come back the way they did really tells you what still potentially was left and also how great that whole area is. It wouldn't surprise me if in five years from now people are talking about 45A the way they were back in the mid-80s when 45A was just, I mean, basically the king of a desert bighorn sheep. I mean, that's including everywhere. People wanted a COFA tag over pretty much anywhere else except for, you know, maybe going down to Baja and killing one of the big old crimna baits. But that was the place to hunt. And I think that that place was going to come back. Well, you heard it here, folks. Right there is a prediction by Travis Scott, Arizona Desert Outfitters. Yeah.

No, that's good info. I wanted to make a point real quick on 43B, how that unit can be.

Because there's a lot of tags in there. But it was, I believe it was in 2012.

I think it was in 2012. We were guiding a guy down there. And, you know, we went into that unit, you know, hoping that we could find a 170 type ram and harvest him. Well, we wound up finding a really big magnum ram. And our hunter missed five shots at him. And we knew he was big. And then, I don't know, about a week later or so, another outfitter had a client in there. And they went in and wound up finding that ram. And they shot him. And he was right at 180. So, but up until that point, you know, there was a lot of people, you know, killing a lot of 160s, you know, 150s and stuff like that. And so, the point is, is like Travis was saying, when you hunt that unit, if you want to go in there and just kill a nice ram, that's a great unit for it.

If you want to go in there to kill a trophy, you've got to be disciplined and, you know, know what you're looking at and keep your finger off the trigger. Yeah, but like you said, and what's exciting about that is there's a lot of country that's not been hunted for 20 plus years, you know. Oh, yeah. Yeah, definitely. Even though you've got high tag numbers, there's a lot of it that's uncovered. But, yeah. And a lot of the hunters have a tendency to, they all kind of go, there are certain areas where everyone goes because that's where they hunted last year. Yeah. And, you know, once again, you start getting these trends going on. Well, and 25 years ago or so, much of that was not wilderness. So, you had people all over throughout the unit, whether they're deer hunting, quail hunting, whatever, but they would also go back to those same areas and hunt sheep.

Well, now that there's so much wilderness in there, it's almost not accessible. Yeah. So, it's not that the sheep left. The sheep are still there. It's just harder to get into. It's just that nobody's going in there to hunt them. Yeah. You just got to draw when you're 40 years and younger. Yeah. You know. Right. We did. Yeah. So, we did want to, you know, we're kind of coming toward the end of the podcast here. We did want to give you guys a little bit of time to talk about one of the most famous rams to ever hit social media, Curly.

And so, Adam and I, I know Adam's talked to you, Eric, and, of course, we've all visited about it a little bit. But what a great story, and I just kind of wanted to kind of get a quick lowdown on it. Yeah. Maybe start off first by telling us how you, when it was you guys first laid eyes on him, found him. I know part of it was through trail cams and things like that. But tell us a brief history of that and. When it started. Yeah. How long ago it started. When that quest started for you. Well, really it started. And it really started out by a rumor. And there was a gentleman in Quartzsite, Arizona, that had been saying that there's a big ram over there. And where Curly was living at, that was just humongous. And he had a curl and a quarter. And I remember hearing a few of those stories now and then, going back to, you know, that's what everybody says.

You know, everybody sees a big, giant monster ram. And historically, that unit that hasn't produced in the past hasn't really produced that big of a chief. I was at the banquet, the recognition banquet, a year later. And I happened to be sitting across from the guy that had the tag in there the year before. And he had shot a 182 ram. And him and I, I got to talking to him. And he had some pictures, some aerial survey pictures from Game of Fish. And he says, actually, I wasn't hunting this ram. And there was another ram in there that I was hunting that was supposed to be bigger. And just by looking at a phone, I, you know, I was looking at the pictures. And I thought, you know what, you know, I'm starting to connect all the dots. I said, I told Travis and Eric, I said, hey, I'm going to get in there and go see if this mythical ram even exists.

And I went in. I set some cameras up. And I came back a couple of weeks later. And the first year, I really didn't get a lot of pictures of him. But I got enough pictures of him that we knew he existed. And we didn't really know what his movements were. We didn't know how far he traveled or anything. And so what I did is I started spreading out through the unit, putting cameras in other waterholes. And there he is on these other waterholes. And he was actually crossing underneath Interstate 10 through the Corvents, going from the north to the south. And so, of course, I didn't know how far south he was going. And, you know, we kind of kept him a secret. You know, I didn't really want to let a whole lot of people know about him. We were hoping that maybe one day we would get a governor hunter on him or possibly draw somebody in there. And what was it? In 2015, I decided...

We were falling in 2013, right?

It was 2013, I believe. Yeah, 2013. And then 2014. And then in 2015 is when I went even further to the south. And I really didn't even think I was going to get him on camera down there. And this is a really remote waterhole. And I would say it was probably, as the crow flies, maybe 15, 16, 17 miles from where he... We had him on the north end, yeah. Yeah, up on the north end. And Travis and I rolled up. We were checking the cards. And the only ram that hit that water, and it wound up being Curly. And we thought, wow, you know, this sucker is really traveling. And so what was funny is, is I started going through all of my trail cam picks. And what was ironic about, from year to year, is he was hitting the same waterholes on the same exact day within maybe 30 minutes. You know, so like on July 4th, he would hit waterhole number two at 9 in the morning, you know, in 2014.

And then in 2015, he'd hit the same water within an hour. Yeah, yeah, pretty much. And he followed the same pattern. And we could almost, you know, I mean, you could almost predict where he was going to be. And then by the time we got into 2016, and we had made the deal with the Oxygen Hunter and everything, we thought, all right, this is not going to be all that difficult. Swimed up. Yeah. We know where he's going to be on this date. You know, it might take, you know, a few days, and we'll find him, and it'll be done with. Well, that didn't happen. He wound up completely changing his pattern altogether. And to the point to where he got on one waterhole that in two years previous, he either never hit or he only hit once. Okay. He lived on the same waterhole.

And you can go to my Instagram, and I have, you know, all the days, you know, of when he was hitting that waterhole day after day after day. And there were several days he would hit that same waterhole three times in one day. And we were starting to get a little concerned. Maybe he was, you know, he was getting ready to die. Yeah. And he had bedded down underneath the big ironwood tree, maybe 10 feet from the waterhole. And I'd say for almost a month that he probably didn't move much more than a few hundred yards. Yeah. So he was an old ram, and he was getting worn out. And his traveling days were coming to an end for the most part and about to shut down. And fortunately, you guys, it was the right year you guys had the connections and got lined up with the auction hunter. And maybe tell us just, you know, kind of briefly how that, you know, you got him killed. You got him on the ground.

How old was he? And how long were his horns? I mean, he's one in a million look. We all know that, and the pitchers tell that story. But, you know, very interesting habits that you've described there because it is very atypical, you know, for it to do that. And it had to have something to do with his age and condition, I'd imagine. Yeah. The funny thing was, you know, for so long he stuck to one pattern and then completely broke his pattern off. And then every time we, the one thing that we learned about Curly is how little we really knew. Every day we were learning something new. And, you know, once you think you got something figured out, you know, he'd pull the carpet out from underneath you. And, but going into the hunt, I'll let Eric or Travis talk about that if they want to. That sounds good. One thing to note with Curly was he was such an odd ram.

You had to throw everything you knew about sheep hunting out and start over because Curly lived in the washes like a mule deer. So a lot of times when we were out scouting for him, we'd go to a water or we'd go to a place that he likes to go to. And we'd start checking for ram tracks. And that's actually how Travis and I found him a couple of times. We'd just start following a ram track out and there he'd be. Wow. That's crazy. Laying in the bottom of a wash buried in an ironwood tree. You know, complete opposite of what sheep were supposed to do. Yeah. So then fast forward, I guess, at some point late in the fall last year. Yeah. So mid December, Curly was located and we were able to get the hunter out there. And we basically, he was in such bad shape. He was an old ram. I mean, he couldn't, he couldn't really move. He couldn't really go uphill. So he, he pretty much stayed put.

Um, so Ray Alt and Scott Hill and I, we found him the day before we killed him and we watched him all day. And he, all day, he only moved probably 200 yards. And so we got the hunter out there, um, the next day, the next morning, we couldn't find him for probably, what, Trav, an hour and a half. Yeah. And everybody took off. Yeah. And he, he ended up being right there. Um, you know, I stayed put, um, Trav and I were on the same hill and boom, we found Curly and we, uh, let Dan know. And Dan came up and said, Hey, I want to do it with a bow. And we kind of looked at him and said, all right, well, this is the way he's headed. And we put Dan kind of in the direction Curly was headed and he came out at 25 yards and he made a great shot. And that was it, man. Wow. How old did that ram end up being? We had him. I remember we had him, Eric, at 15 and I think game of fishing at 13 plus, right?

Or was it 14 plus? Wow. That's almost unheard of, you know, whether it's 13, whether it's 14 or 15. And, you know, that's one thing about. Jason, the hair was falling out of him. I mean, this ram literally a week after we had taken Curly, uh, there was a big winter storm moved in. And when I say winter storm, it's not like a snow storm or anything. Dropped a half inch of snow down there. A full half. A full half. No. We got almost two inches of rain. Oh, just rain. On one storm. Oh, yeah. I'm teasing you. And cold. Cold. Cold for us. 30, 35, 40 degrees, right? Exactly. Don't listen. That is cold for us. I know. I know. That is really cold for these animals. Yeah. These animals, their DNA allows them to live, which, which we laugh at what most people think is hot. We go, we're still wearing sweaters. Okay. Oh, yeah. That's how these sheep are, though.

So, so when it's, you know, 34 degrees and raining and stays that way for two days, an old ram like, like, uh, Curly, he had nothing left. Yeah. Nothing left. That winter, he's probably was going to be his last. Well, you guys took him in the right, the right time, obviously in the nick of time, maybe in some regards, but what a special ram. An old ram. He's walked hundreds and hundreds of miles. And so that's awesome you guys were able to take part of that. And like, like I said earlier, he's a very famous ram. He, he occupied, I mean, for three years, there, there wasn't a day that went by where we were thinking about him or whatever. And, um, you know, and then getting out there in the heat, you know, we were trying to find him. And I remember one occasion, there was an area, uh, uh, spring and I had talked to Eric and we couldn't find him.

And, you know, Curly would, he would go missing for a month at a time. And so we were always, you know, trying to stay on top of him. And Eric and me and Eric and Travis were talking. And I said, well, I'm going to head up into the spring and maybe go and see if there's water up there and see if, um, um, you know, he might be up there. And, uh, cause this spring was in, in between a couple of water holes and there was about 105, maybe getting into 108. And I wasn't thinking, and I thought, yeah, it's just right up, you know, right up the trail here, but it's about a mile, mile and a half. And I didn't take any water and it was already 1030, 11 o'clock in the morning. And I was moving along and I wound up overshooting the spring because there was no water in it. And I walked past the spring by a half a mile and finally came back. And by now the temperature is like 112, 113.

And I was like, I can't believe I walked so far and I didn't bring any water with me. And so I wound up having to walk out of that, that canyon with no water, um, completely dry. And by the time I got to my side by side, I could feel my legs starting to cramp up a little bit, but I had gone probably four and a half, five hours without a single drop of water. And the ironic thing is the second time me, Travis and Eric went in there, I wound up having a, uh, a massive kidney stone attack. Jeez. And, uh, you guys, yeah, that's, uh, you guys probably got a lot of stuff. Yeah. So, so we, so I get all the way in there and I'm killing the guys, you know, I said, guys, I'm, I feel like I'm dying right now. I'm in excruciating pain. And so I just laid down underneath the, um, underneath the pallority tree and Trav and Eric went looking.

And finally they walked by and they kicked my foot and told me to get up. And, uh, but there was at one point when I was going out, I was, I was in so much pain and everything. I was telling Trav and Eric that they may have to call life flight and get me out of here. But, uh, well, there's, there's been, there's been life flight called for a lot less than that. So that's crazy. You guys, that would have, that would have flat put up the rest of us in a fetal position. Well, and that's also a testament to what you guys are going to do to hike and find the next spring. And where's he water and all that's just a, a testament to what a big, big giant ram like, like Curly will push you to do because you want to, you want to put your hands on. Well, and it's like, it's like you guys said, uh, you know, there probably isn't a day that went by that you didn't think about him.

And that's what happens with anything. You know, when you get obsessed with one specific animal, you name them, you follow them. And, and pretty soon you become somewhat obsessed and maybe even, you know, I don't know, addicted to them or whatever. And so, you know, guys, when, when he hit the ground and I just want to say this, cause not a lot of people understand how hunters really are. When that ram hit the ground, I ran, I mean, like a mile and a quarter down a hill through the wash back up. I got there. I was dry. Even I was so excited and I couldn't talk and tears just started to flow. And once I dried my tears and I could talk, I looked up and I'd ask the hunter. I, the only thing I could think to say is I said, what are me and my kids going to go look for now? Yeah, that's true.

I mean, I really felt like I was a part of my best friend dying, you know, I mean, that, that's what he meant. Yeah. Well, you know, I mean. That's what big rams can do. And that rat one was not just a big ram. He was, he was a legend and congrats to you guys for, for helping him put on the ground and a lot of money put in the ground for desert sheep all over Arizona. So we appreciate you guys' time today. I know we could probably go on for another hour and a half or two and, and maybe we'll have to do that another time. But Eric, Troy and Travis, we, we really appreciate your time you spent with us today, your knowledge and experience. And obviously in Arizona shine through and just, just listening to you guys talk about your unit. So we really appreciate it. And, and let's cross our fingers that, that some, somebody gets lucky this year.

And, and you guys obviously get some hunters to, I'm sure you will get out there and chase one of these rams. We'd enjoy having you guys down here too. Well. We would enjoy having you guys down anytime. Well, maybe when we get off the air, we'll talk about some rams. How's that sound? All right. Sounds good. All right. Well, we, we do, we do appreciate you guys. And as we wrap up here, I just want to let everybody know that we do publish a lot of information here in the Epic Outdoors Hunting Magazine. The June issue, June, July, we did cover Arizona as well as California, Arizona deer and sheep. And we've got all the units in there available to non-residents. As we do publish a lot of the different sizes and information and whatnot. And you can find that.

Appreciate Under Armour and all they do for us sponsoring this podcast and, and some of the different activities we're involved with them. And so, anyway, again, guys, it was our pleasure. We sure appreciate you guys taking time out of your busy schedule. And, and what a blast it is. We guys have a lot of passion for what you do. And that's like Adam says, it does shine through. And, and we could all learn a lot from you guys. You've got a lot of years and, and time invested and, and a lot of knowledge on all the different units. So, thank you.