In this episode our hosts Jason Carter and Adam Bronson talk with the Antelope Guru Tony Grimmett. In his career Tony of Pronghorn Outfitters has rewritten the record books for Pronghorn Antelope. A quick look at the books will prove Tony as the go-to man for giant Pronghorn. In this podcast we learn the keys of field judging antelope and how to recognize a giant. This episode is full of details and information on different states across the west regarding antelope. Body size, ear length, mass, etc etc. Tony is full of valuable information and anyone with an interest for hunting antelope will love this episode.

Disclaimer: this podcast has been transcribed from the original audio and likely contains errors. This transcription does not reflect the views and opinions of Epic Outdoors LLC. Please consult the original audio with any concerns.

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And then we start doing the breakdown because of the

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Year size, the face size, and the eye size.

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Who knows those kind of statistics. That’s crazy.

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How do you break down score in terms of what matters more?

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Anything to do with Western big Games?

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To the Epic Outdoors Podcast, powered by Under Armour.

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Hey everybody. Jason Carter here, and Adam Bronson as well with Epic Outdoors. Another episode of the Epic Outdoors Podcast. We’re here with a super cool guest, Tony Grimmet of Pronghorn Guide Service, one of the most world renowned outfitters for antelope and, and antelope killers. But before we get to cranking with, with Tony, do want to thank Under Armour for sponsoring this podcast. They’re just super good dudes. Been in the field with the executives there at Under Armour. They’re good hunters and and are in the field with us doing exactly what we’re talking about. So anyway, we do appreciate them. But here at Epic Outdoors, we also book Hunts. We’re a full blown booking agency. Of course, we specialize in western big game animals, Alaska, Canada, Mexico. We deal, deal with some white tail hunts here and there. You know, anything that’s awesome and big we’re interested in. So we deal with the guys in Kansas and Iowa and different things as well. So

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It’s that time of year that, that a lot of the draw results are coming out. And if you’re left with nothing or not enough in your schedule that you’d like, give us a call. Let us know the season dates you may be looking for filling a gap in or the species. And we’ll get to work or immediately give you an opportunity right there on the phone outfit that you might wanna call and talk with. Book a hunt, fill up your schedule. Yeah,

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We’ve got full-time booking agent, Jeff, John two. First names. He’s my brother-in-law. Super good guy, super personable. Loves to talk hunting. He’s dealing with our outfitters on a 24 hour, seven day a week type basis and helps Adam and I stay on top of the openings that we’ve got available. So you can call in and visit any of us, but Jeff’s a super good guy and that’s his main responsibility. So anything you need help with as far as looking for a hunt with guaranteed tags, or even if you drew a tag, Jeff, Adam or I can definitely help you. And so give us a holler. It’s 4 3 5 2 6 3 0 7 7 7 or hit us up on the web epic You there, Tony?

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Yeah, I’m here.

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Awesome. Well, I’ve been looking forward to this podcast. You’re one of those guys that you know, Adam and I, and well, as many of the listeners can learn a lot from and, and antelope are some of the toughest critters to judge and, and, you know, just know exactly what you’re getting into when you’re hunting antelope. I know they’re, you know, seem somewhat easy on the surface to hunt and whatnot, but, but to trophy hunt ’em a whole different ball game. So anyway, maybe right before we get started, just talk to us a little bit about your background, how you got into hunting, and then how you got addicted to antelope.

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Well, yeah, I started hunting antelope when I was a young man. I think I was in my twenties and happened to draw unit 18, a tag, gosh, I can’t remember the year. Probably 84 or 80, somewhere in there. And just

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20, 20, 20 years past the day you were born. Yeah,

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Well it was longer than that. I think I was 24. Okay. 20, 25, something like that. So early,

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Eighties. I just fell in love with them. Yeah. Just the beauty of ’em. And I started to learn about, you know, the fact that their, their, their lungs and their heart, you know, is, is bigger than an elks. And their, the tensile strength on their bones are like 10 times the strength of an Alex bone.

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Come on. How does, how do you know this stuff? Like, who knows? Those kind of statistics. That’s crazy.

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We got the right guy to talk about two points today on the phone.

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That’s right. Well, I, I, I started, I helped a guy with a book out Lander, Wyoming. He started calling me early on and, you know, picking my brain about stuff. I knew about antelope down here while he was telling me about antelope up there. But through all the different biologists that I ran into over the years, that’s the stuff that they were telling me that wow makes ’em so unique.

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That’s crazy.

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And the fact that they’re, they, they’ve, you know, been around longer than any other animal, north American, pretty much on the planet. Yep. And, you know, they’re unique to their own. There’s no other species that’s related,

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So, so you, you end up drawing a tag. What were you doing for a living, you know, at 24 years old back then?

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Well, I was a police officer for Phoenix at that time, you know, I did that for six years and I, I got out on a medical retirement, so yeah, I kinda started doing this after that. And you know, that was back in 1980, so.

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Wow. Been so you’re been while obviously if you’re, if you have any tendency to be interested in antelope, you, you’re in the right state, at least being from Arizona, I mean, that’s a good place to start, start getting after it.

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Well, it’s, it’s hard to get a tag here, but yeah, it’s, it’s a great state for, for big antelope, that’s for sure.

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So were you, did you hunt, like, did you grow up hunting 16, 17, 18 years old, grow up hunting deer or elk, other species or how did, how’d you get started?

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Yeah, I pretty much hunted all those. My, you know, I was originally from Mississippi and my dad was from there. Also grew up hunting and fishing, being a farmer. And he kinda got me into the, you know, dying to go deer hunting every year and Yeah. You know, and started when I was a young boy, so.

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Wow. That’s great. And so once you drew this antelope tag, I mean, what did you kill? How did it kind of tell us about that and then when did you start guiding it?

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Well, I, you know, I just, obviously I scouted a ton because through friends and stuff they said, you know, the key in hunting is, is the scout guys that don’t scout, you know, just get lucky. So I took that to heart and, and scouted pretty much every day off I had. And found a big buck and just kinda kept tabs on him and ended up taking them opening day.

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No way. So what, what, what did he end up going? Or what, tell us

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About it. He was seven 17 with six inch prongs. And you know, he was, he was a big boy. I think he scored right at that 82 number. Yeah. And

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So you started off hunting book, book antelope and never looked back, basically.

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Yeah, yeah. And he taught me that, you know, you needed masks ’cause he was, he was pretty thin. And, and I found out real quick how important masks was on antelope.

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Well, yeah, well no leading right into that, I guess, you know, like Jason alluded big antelope or, or hard to judge for a lot of people you’re, you know, we’re used to deer and elk and all that things that tower at two feet, three feet, five feet above their heads. And that’s not the case with, with antelopes. So let’s maybe get into that a little bit. You know, maybe, maybe first off though, and maybe that’ll get into us about how to judge antelope. ’cause I know there’s some differences state to state, but where do you, I mean, you’re from Arizona, but where is your favorite place to hunt? Big antelope. I’d imagine Arizona’s gotta be towards the top.

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Oh yeah, it’s, you know, actually we work out of New Mexico and Wyoming and Arizona and we live here in Arizona and we do the fewest hunts here because you have to draw a tag and the draw’s tough. So, you know, with that being said, probably New Mexico and Wyoming makes it much easier. So it, it, the older I get, the more enjoyable those two states have become for

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Me. And so you’re doing a lot of like landowner tags in New Mexico and other bid tag work and then in Wyoming it’s just a little easier to draw more tags available.

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Correct. Correct. And you know, it’s kind of an untapped source. There’s just as big a heads up there, it seems it’s anywhere except for the, the absolute giants seem to come outta Arizona, Nevada, and, and New Mexico and, you know, but for that mid-range, mid eighties type of buck, Wyoming’s just got bunches. It has a lot.

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Wow. That’s awesome. Well, so as we get started here, I just, I do want to just talk a a little bit about, I know you said one time you like mule deer or mule deer hunting. I mean, do you guide any other species or are you just pretty much really on the antelope?

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Well, we have guided a couple of IEX tag hunters in New Mexico, but that’s it. And that was simply, you know, clients that had bought that tag and wanted to hunt ’em. And then my daughter got fortunate enough to draw an IEX tag, which is one in a million. So, you know, it was, it was a blast. And we’ve killed a couple of giant IEX over there. But other than that, no. We we’re pretty much a hundred percent antelope. It just, you know, it takes up pretty much my whole year.

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So they never get, they never get boring to you. I mean, you’ve gotta have killed and guided hundreds and hundreds, I don’t know. Lots.

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Seven, 701.

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Come on.

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Is that a, are you rounding or is that exact,

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Does that include road kills or is that just regular

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Se 701 hunts to date? Geez, 6 656 kills.

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478 of ’em are over 82 B and C

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Come on net Or

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78 net.

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Net or gross.

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That’s net book

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Book books over

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Half. When I talk B N C I talk net. And when I talk SS c I obviously gross. Just gross.

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So you just, they pretty much need the, the Tony Grimmet record book. I mean, that’s pretty much, that’s your section that antelope section’s your section.

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Well, when I started back in the mid eighties, I, I, that was my goal. I wanted to rewrite the record books.

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You really, that was, it didn’t

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Just start out. I wanted to kill, yeah, I wanted to kill the world record and I wanted to, you know, we literally dominated some of the counties. Like Socorro County was unheard of in New Mexico back in the early eighties. And and now it’s number one. Yeah,

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Oh yeah.

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For, for, for numbers of B and C bucks and you know, I think there’s one county in Wyoming that’s ahead of it, but, you know, we’re in there too now, so.

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Well that’s, that’s aggressive. And you know, we’ve, we’ve known you as the antelope guru, obviously there’s nobody that I know of I, I’m pretty sure anybody knows of that just does antelope and specializes in it. And you, I know and your son Eli, have that reputation as being, being it, and, you know, whether it be draw tags or you know, other methods, you’re the turn, you’re the turn two guy, so to speak, to find a giant. And if there’s one to be found in a unit, you’re probably gonna turn one up. But that maybe leads us to Yeah, let’s talk about that. And you know, antelope, you know, they’re maybe not the hardest, hardest to find, you know, they, they live in fairly open country in some regards and obviously interspersed with timber country and other parts of different units. But they

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Always chase my truck. They always chase my

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They want to try to run you down. Yeah.

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They wanna race you every time, but

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Well, they, they do. Yeah.

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Sometimes you can just start driving a little faster and they gravitate toward your vehicle.

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They want, they want on the other side of the road. Yeah. And they wanna cut you off. But you know, Joe,

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Well they, they love to run. They, they love a good run. And, and if they think you’re gonna beat ’em somewhere, regardless of what you’re doing in their mind, they’ve gotta beat you. Gotta

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Find another gear. That’s right. Yeah,

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So let’s, I guess starting from the first, when you’re obviously covering as many antelope as you can and bucks as you can is part of it. But when you, when you start breaking down a big buck, let’s start talking about what you really, how to judge an antelope. Because there’s a lot of different ways to 82 or to maybe 85, I mean 90, you start talking about those giants, they’ve gotta have a bit of everything. You can’t just have height and a little bit of prong. You’ve gotta have the mass to go with it. But, but what do you, what do you look for, you know, what are some of your, or how do you break down score in terms of what matters more? I know a sheep, it’s, you know, 60 40 mass and length, things like that. What do you look for?

00:13:16:01 –> 00:14:14:03
Well, you know, first off, you pro you probably need to know what, what they have in your area. In other words, if, if you’re hunting a state that you’re not familiar with or an area you’re not familiar with, you need to head to the local taxi dermis and start looking at ear size and face size and body size because it changes in every region, which I found out the hard way 30 years ago. But it, it’s, you know, you just, you have to do your, your homework or it’s not going to work once that’s done. ’cause I did a seminar, the first Arizona Founda Antelope Foundation seminar on judging, and I held up two ears mounted ears that were cut off obviously, so I could have them at the, at the banquet. And one was eight and a quarter inches long out of New Mexico, and the other was five and a quarter inches long outta North New Mexico.

00:14:14:20 –> 00:14:18:04
Both cheese, both mature bucks or whatever. Yeah, I was, yeah,

00:14:18:06 –> 00:14:45:08
Both. One was an 83 inch buck and one was the S c I world record. So, you know, had that five inch ear been on the S c I world record, he’d have probably looked 120. Yeah. But yeah, you know, he was 99 7 and still looked giant. But you, you know, I mean there’s, you’ve gotta go by something and if ears is what you’re going by, you need to know the size of the ears in your

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Area. And why, why is that, break that down for us. Like when you’re looking at the ear, obviously you’re, you’re judging height and prong and whatnot, but tell us, tell us exactly what’s going through your mind on comparing the air.

00:14:57:12 –> 00:16:01:01
Well, you know, if, if you’ve got an air size in your, your head and your area, then you can virtually lay the air along the horn and, and come up with, you know, a reasonable length that you’re not gonna be off by a lot. But if you start, you know, if the buck’s got five inch ears, five and a half and you’re thinking seven, well you’re gonna think he’s a lot longer than he is so that, you know, you have to have something to go by. Whether it be the width of the eye, the length of the face, once you have a reference point, you know, then you can start to begin to, to judge the antelope on, you know, his mass, how high his prong is, how long his prong is off the horn. Just these various things. And you know, you know, we did a field judging video back in oh two that, you know, we’ve gotten great response from and, and people are still using it. I mean it’s, it’s very down to earth and basic, but it works.

00:16:01:16 –> 00:16:29:07
So when you, when you talk about, you know, ear size, head size and that area to area, and you’ve identified, I think it was Northeastern New Mexico as having small eared antelope, I mean, is is in that area or 80% of the bucks all small eared and or all of ’em. And, and in other parts of the country, very rare, like to ever find a midgets five and a half inch year antelope,

00:16:30:17 –> 00:16:54:07
You know, somewhere there’s a cutoff line in New Mexico going north to south and, and it varies, you know, and, and different areas going east to west. But the north basically has these smaller faces, smaller bodies, they’re probably 30 pounds on the hoof smaller and they’re, you know, we’ve seen faces as short as seven inches

00:16:55:13 –> 00:16:57:00
From eye to nose. Is that what you’re talking about?

00:16:57:03 –> 00:17:14:25
You know, from, from the tear duct to the end of the end of the face. And you know, we’ve seen them as large as eight six, so you know, that’s an inch and six eight doesn’t seem like a lot, but when you put all the other proportions in that, that’s huge.

00:17:15:12 –> 00:17:36:10
Yeah. So when you’re looking, when you’re judging, you’ll take like an air size, do the math, then might, you might look at the face as well, do the math, like you’re saying the the eye do the math, I mean, so if two or three of those add up, then you’re like, okay, I’m relatively certain that’s a 17 and a half inch goat or, or whatever. Is that how it’s going down?

00:17:36:26 –> 00:18:25:05
Yeah, for for instance, you know, just an overall look because of the experience I have, you know, we’ll look at a buck and, and my son and I or or Dave and I, my other guide, and we’ll look at it and think, okay, wow, that looks like what we’re looking for. Say we’re scouting for the governor’s tag or you know, a premier tag and, and we go, wow, that’s a 90. And then we start doing the breakdown ’cause of the year size, the face size and the eye size, which we know should be a certain number. And we go, wow, I’m only coming up with 86 or seven when we do it that way. So you gotta go by your breakdown. You can’t just, wow, overall look, boom, he’s awesome. And if, you know, if you’re gonna put him on the wall and it’s your buck and he is awesome, what else you want?

00:18:25:05 –> 00:18:51:26
That’s right. For most people that’s probably fine. But if you’re really scrutinizing something, what you’re saying about really comes into play. And when you moved from that part of New Mexico over to say Arizona or up to Wyoming, where would your, where do you find average? Maybe there’s some variation, but I don’t imagine there’s variation from five and a half to eight and a half within in Arizona or Wyoming. Is it just that region of New Mexico that seems to be the smaller stuff?

00:18:52:07 –> 00:19:35:20
Yeah, I think so. I mean there’s, for the most part at the Arizona Bucks are, are lighter in white and you know, they’re the, they just a rule of thumb, most bucks will have a six and a half to seven inch ear and you know, and that’s from the center of the ear, but to the tip of the ear and you know, and, and most bucks will have a seven and a half to eight eight inch face. We, we say, you know, point blank, average is about seven seven and you know, the year is about 6 5, 6, 6. You know, that’s, that’s kind of the rule of thumb that we’re using for most bucks.

00:19:35:23 –> 00:19:38:14
That’s Wyoming or Arizona or

00:19:38:15 –> 00:19:40:04
Wyoming or Arizona. Yeah,

00:19:40:21 –> 00:19:43:15
Colorado, Utah. You know, just a general antelope.

00:19:43:15 –> 00:20:38:05
Correct. And you know, you’ll see, you’ll see charts of top of the top of the shoulder to the brisket. You’ll see charts of 12 inches for an antelope. Well that’s a, that’s a real skinny antelope. We use more 14 to 16. And in Wyoming they’re even thicker than that. A lot of times, even in New Mexico, we’ve killed the bucks that have hit the ground and been 19 inches from brisket to the top of the shoulder. Wow. And clearly it was a monster buck and it was, you know, the new state record at the time. But you know, they, they obviously vary quite a bit from region to region. We’ve had guys say, well geez, this buck down here, you know, I could pick up with one hand and throw it over my shoulder. That’s how small he was like a coyote. Yeah. So I’m sure he was exaggerating, but I’ve run into the same type of stuff.

00:20:38:18 –> 00:20:59:05
Do you generally find that the bigger the body, the bigger the horn? I mean down in like Sonora you’ll find these, you know, bucks with, you know, mule deer, small bodies and they still have some, you know, big antler on top. I mean is so you do have those, you know, odd situations, but I mean, generally speaking the bigger the body, the bigger the buck.

00:20:59:15 –> 00:21:29:10
Well actually no, that’s, that’s usually not the case. In 2011 and 13, we killed two of the biggest bucks ever killed in New Mexico. And, and both of their bodies, of course, you know, they were governor’s tags, so their hair was terrible in August and you know, they literally weighed 90 pounds on the hoof. They were, it was like their heads necks were gonna break watching ’em walk around. The heads were so big, the horns. That’s

00:21:29:16 –> 00:21:29:26

00:21:30:26 –> 00:21:31:22
So not always.

00:21:32:16 –> 00:21:55:27
And, and it, and, and because it was a drought is probably why they were so large because when they were fawns, they obviously had good wet ears. So they, their start was good then when they hit their drought in their prime at four years old, it didn’t, it didn’t matter at that point because the drought forces ’em to eat stuff with a lot of protein.

00:21:56:16 –> 00:22:12:02
Yeah, let’s talk about that. Like, like, so I, you and I’ve talked a little bit on the phone about that. I mean, and, and of course people have their own theory for elk and deer, but, but for antelope, you’re finding those dry years produce the, the best bucks or the best growth? The,

00:22:12:02 –> 00:22:49:14
The the absolute largest bucks Yeah. Are typically on drought years. And it’s because of what they eat. You know, when it’s, when it’s nothing but a dirt field, typically the, the chamise grows, which is a type of sage brush and the winter fat grass grows and they are very high 30 plus percent in protein where, you know, they’re, they’re similar to us on lush years, they’ll eat stuff they like and it’s seven or 8% protein. Kinda like we do, we eat stuff we like, it’s not good for us

00:22:50:29 –> 00:22:52:07
Popcorn and stuff.

00:22:52:27 –> 00:22:53:05

00:22:53:15 –> 00:22:54:17
Chips, whatever.

00:22:55:09 –> 00:23:34:17
Yeah, you got it. So, but that’s Pepsis, I I, you know, from what I’ve been able to learn from ranchers and, and biologists, this is kinda where we’re pointing to be that that factor of growth and, and the hotter, you know, it it something to do with the heat they have, you know, my son has come up with a theory about the the horns and the glands and the way the horns grow, the hotter it is, it helps the horn growth for some reason. And I haven’t quite understood what he’s saying, but, but I think it’s maybe

00:23:34:17 –> 00:24:41:16
Honest something. Well, whatever you guys are doing collectively, it, it’s working. So whatever theories you go with year to year, it’s paying off. But one thing you said a minute ago, you know, got me thinking about sheep, I spent a lot of time sheep hunting and you said something about the start of these bucks when they were fawns or yearlings whatnot. And, and I know with, with bighorns both rocky and deserts and I guess more so maybe with some of the desert that are in areas that are very hostile, you know, two to five inches of moisture a year, you know, is it, and those, those starts from a yearling to three year old Rams will allow their base size to get big during that period of time. And once they get big, they don’t ever go small. You know, you never have a ram that’s, you know, goes from 12 and then goes back smaller once they’re big, they’re big and they stay bigger. Antelope, you know, they’re a little bit more unique ’cause sheep have horns that keep growing throughout their life. And antelope obviously shed ’em, but is that bone core underneath? Is that what you’re talking about? About the starts that gets bigger young and then

00:24:41:19 –> 00:25:19:26
Well, yeah, exactly. It even though they shed every year they’re gonna be where from all our video and photos that we do every year, we can tell from year to year that that a buck has changed drastically. But yet he still in our brains, they, he looks, you know, we know who he is where sometimes they don’t change much at all. And and that’s a lot of, that’s d n a and gene pool and, and areas they live in and the type of growth they have. Some of them are completely smooth horned and other ones have bumps and knots all over ’em.

00:25:19:26 –> 00:25:20:22
Yeah. Cheaters.

00:25:20:26 –> 00:25:22:07
Some of ’em aren’t two points. Yeah,

00:25:23:05 –> 00:25:24:02
Yeah. Cheaters.

00:25:24:09 –> 00:25:56:11
Yeah, exactly. And a lot of people call ’em, oh, I got a buck with four prongs. Well no, it really doesn’t exist. You might think it’s an extra prong, but it’s really not just character cool. They’re, they’re just gross that are off a prong or you know, protrusions. We’ve had, you know, stuff grow out of the back of the head. We’ve had spikes grow out of the bridge of the nose that are actually horn. Yeah. And you know, it, it has nothing to do with their normal set of horns. It’s just

00:25:56:16 –> 00:26:02:16
And does that trait, do those traits carry from year to year if you’ve got a bumpy extra little gross?

00:26:02:20 –> 00:26:32:18
They don’t. They don’t. They, they, yeah, they, they have a, you know, they’re, you can use it kinda a three to five years old is is their, you know, they’re gonna be big. They’re gonna be big at three and then they could be a little bigger at four. They might fill out so to speak. And then, you know, kinda like a kid going from a freshman to a sophomore, sometimes they pack on 30 pounds of muscle. That’s kind of from two to three for an antelope.

00:26:32:25 –> 00:26:47:08
Yeah. So, so that three to five is that, that’s your sweet spot in terms of we’re just talking horn? Yeah, it that, ’cause that’s generally a lot and I know when it was younger than say deer and elk, but, but that’s very interesting. Very

00:26:47:08 –> 00:27:05:04
Unique. Yeah. If you wanna kill a monster antelope, if if he’s not big at five, he’s not gonna be big at six. Yeah. He’s going downhill six, seven, and eight. Yeah. And rarely is there anything aged in the field that that reaches eight. That that’s not a normal situation.

00:27:05:06 –> 00:27:27:26
Yeah. They work, you know, anybody that spends time watching antelope, but you do, they are, they work hard to defend their territories and rutt and it’s, it’s not an easy life. Aggressive, they’re aggressive little farts. And that probably contributes to maybe an early maturity and, you know, shorter life expectancy. You know, they wear out for us. They, they get used up

00:27:27:26 –> 00:28:15:05
Well and the, there’s such a turnover, you know, we hear guys all the time. Yeah, I saw this giant, wouldn’t you see him five years ago? Well, he’s gone. He is not a factor anymore. Yeah. And they swear up and down. No, I just saw him yesterday. Well, they’re seeing relatives. Yeah. Yeah. Needless to say, the way they’re designed, they can have like almost clones year to year. Sure. There’ll be certain areas that are confined for antelope and then around it, there’s not much antelope stuff and there’ll be four or five bucks in this herd or, or you know, they’re spread out. But I mean basically, and they all look alike and you just gotta, you know, figure out which one you’re looking at each time. ’cause one will be heavier or longer or whatever, but they’re all related.

00:28:16:02 –> 00:28:34:21
So how do you, I mean obviously like we, we follow deer or elk and sheep year to year to year and you’re, you’re doing the same thing on these antelope and naming ’em and I mean, is it something you can look and just, you know, that that’s Ernie or that’s bird or whatever, like, you know, right off the bat, like that’s that parking pretty,

00:28:35:01 –> 00:28:49:20
Pretty much, it doesn’t usually take us more than a few seconds and one of us will pipe up, oh, that’s so and so, or that’s, you know, and then, you know, even if one of us isn’t quite sure, you know, it only takes a few seconds more to figure it out. So

00:28:50:11 –> 00:29:30:11
One thing, one question I had, you know, we talked about antelope shedding that black sheath every year here in Utah at least, it’s usually late November and December. I don’t know how much it varies everywhere, but that’s when they do it here. When you, how would you characterize, you know, obviously some of that growth going on when we would all consider the bad, you know, deer and elk aren’t growing, they’re shedding that time of year. It’s brutal, it’s winter and all that, but antelope are, are making a start. So at what point does the most growth take place and at what point do you guys say, all right, we can start scouting now because what they’ve got’s pretty much what they got for the year year?

00:29:30:11 –> 00:30:14:15
Yeah. Well it’s, it ch it changes obviously in every region or every state and sometimes it doesn’t. But you know, I, I’ve been in New Mexico in December and had had bucks that hadn’t lost their horns yet, which blew me away because here in Arizona, mid mid-October they’re all gone. Oh really? You know, if you’re seeing a two horn buck, you’re looking at a small buck that already shed a month ago. Wow. And of course we drop our Fs in April and May here. Yeah. I mean we, you can go up to Prescott Valley or Chino Valley and, and see, you know, FSS everywhere in the middle of April. The end of April. And you just won’t see that any other state. Oh.

00:30:14:18 –> 00:30:19:08
So when are they, when do you see ’em, when are they grown out fully? Generally,

00:30:20:02 –> 00:30:31:00
You know, here we start scouting probably, you know, middle of May toward the end of May because they’re, they’re probably 95% done, 90% somewhere in there.

00:30:31:09 –> 00:30:36:15
How do you think that would vary from the more northern states? So Utah, Wyoming, these other states? When would you

00:30:36:22 –> 00:32:10:23
Well, New Mexico is, is a little behind us. They, they dropped their Fs as late as June, the end of June sometimes. And, you know, blows me away every year. I’m like, how can we be almost side by side and they’re six, eight weeks behind us and in Fs survival, I mean drop and, and you know, and the way their, their growth is because obviously, you know, the longest growing season is the reason for the biggest horns. And that’s why Arizona, New Mexico always shine over Utah, Wyoming, these other states, Oregon because they have a shorter growing season. Whoa. They don’t drop until late November, December and right in the dead of winter. Yeah. So their tops, their tops are the first things that come out. Okay. They got their sheath and their tops start growing and if their tops don’t get good moisture, good feed and bad winter doesn’t happen, then they could be good. Otherwise they’ll be thin. Which is usually the, the, the problem we see in Wyoming all the time, we get great bottoms ’cause it’s summer growth and they get great prongs because it’s also summer and late spring. But their tops grew in the worst time of the year in the winter. Wow. So it’s rare to get super heavy tops in Wyoming as often as you would see it down here where we get the smaller bases because of the hot summers. Hot

00:32:10:23 –> 00:32:11:08
Summer. Yeah.

00:32:11:20 –> 00:32:19:04
You know, they, they get long here and long in New Mexico, but their bottoms start to thin down long before they get killed.

00:32:19:15 –> 00:32:27:23
So so do you, you know, do you, shed hunt ’em like you’re following specific bucks, you wanna hold onto these sheath and score ’em and

00:32:28:01 –> 00:32:30:17
Shed hunting. Shed hunting is tough for antelope.

00:32:30:28 –> 00:32:32:26
I know it, but I, but still like,

00:32:33:04 –> 00:32:43:01
Seems like the dogs and stuff chew ’em up. They eat ’em, don’t they? I mean, I know when I’ve been out in the past out with the dog, the dog will bring them back to you and then they’re chewing ’em up. Yeah.

00:32:43:18 –> 00:33:24:18
Well think of ’em as scabs on your leg when they’re moist. When they’re moist and fresh. They’re really big. Well that, that’s, that’s an antelope set of horns in May. Yeah. You know, April, may, they’re, they’re softer. They actually move and flex if, if obviously if you get ahold of one where in June they really start to get hard and solidify and then they get harder as the summer goes on and they eventually get to where they hitch ’em and they pull ’em off and that’s, you know, just same thing that goes through a scab on your leg and you know, and as it does, it gets smaller. So the horn’s absolutely at the smallest when they shed it. Yeah.

00:33:24:19 –> 00:33:32:20
So you can’t put even ift you find one you’re just like, well he, he’s pretty big, but it’s a shell of what it probably was when it was, you know, well yeah,

00:33:32:22 –> 00:34:14:22
You can, you can bet he was probably two or three points bigger per side at his max. Yeah. And then, and then as he dries up, he gets smaller and smaller and then of course, you know, if you look to where they pull ’em off, they’ve gotta have a fence or bush or something along those lines. So a lot of times the horn will fall in there or if it does hit the ground, any rains, you know, they’re real light once they dry out so they float and run down all these river bottoms and stuff. Yeah. And creek beds and so you’ve really gotta know where to look and you’ve gotta look early in the spring, otherwise, you know, it’s, it’s, you know, they’re gonna get eaten up by rodents. Yeah.

00:34:14:27 –> 00:34:36:26
So when you, so when you’re, you’re starting to scout here, mid-May, end of May, June. Tell us about, you know, their patterns. Like do they, do you find them, you know, for the next four months within a square mile, two miles, five miles? I mean, what’s stopping ’em from Roman? Like, or do they, do they have a home like other critters?

00:34:38:08 –> 00:35:09:10
They do, but I’ve also known them to, to leave that home. They get pressured in there, they will leave and sometimes I’ve seen them, you know, 4, 5, 6 miles away and take up residency somewhere else. And it’s frustrating when that happens. ’cause you know, you think they got shot or or whatever and, and here they were alive the whole time. They just moved. And it doesn’t usually happen in a season. It usually happens from season to season.

00:35:09:28 –> 00:35:37:11
I see. I would, I’d imagine, and I’d imagine states like, you know, the northern states, Wyoming wa not where they have to migrate to just simply survive winters sometimes, you know, dozens or you know, dozens of miles and do they always go back to the same place? Maybe you guys are you guys that you guys have up there in Wyoming know that, but there’d be probably more variability when you got winter and snow like that. Arizona, that’s never really an issue. They can can live

00:35:37:28 –> 00:36:35:14
Right. Grow. Well, when I first started in the antelope, you know, everybody including the biologists in Arizona, you know, nobody thought they migrated but you know, they obviously do in Nevada and Wyoming and some of the colder areas because they can’t live where they live in the summer there in the winter, at least in some of the regions. So yeah, they, they they have to. Yeah. And no, sometimes they don’t go back to the same places we, we know bucks that, that make it year to year and and Wyoming and we go back to find them and sometimes they’re not there. Wow. It’s like, well they apparently didn’t come back or they just moved across the mountain or across the water and they found homes so they stayed. So they’re not as, as you know, territorial I I should say, as some animals get.

00:36:36:05 –> 00:36:52:14
Tell us about some of your scouting and hunting tactics. Like obviously glass, I mean obviously you’re glass and that’s, that’s a no brainer, but I mean there’s a lot of ways to hunt antelope and you know, just tell us about some of that and what you find to be pretty effective.

00:36:53:15 –> 00:37:28:18
Well we, we like to, you know, the, for lack of better terms cover as much ground as as you have scouting time for, you know, and the only, and obviously glass scope, whatever, but you know, it’s until we locate, you know, the, the bigger bucks or whatever we’re looking for and you know, whether it be that or Fons or dough, usually if you find the D early you can bet there’ll be bucks later.

00:37:29:05 –> 00:37:29:13

00:37:30:04 –> 00:38:12:17
And Bucks typically will go to the dose. It’s not the other way around. Do don’t go to the Bucks. But a lot of times the bucks will go to the dose and then they bring the dose back to where they were. So if you don’t find bucks early, which is a lot of times the case because they don’t have those looking out for ’em early on and they’re roaming by themselves and they’re really hard to find because they just, you know, for lack of better words, they’re like nomads it, it’s hard to know what’s in their head because it doesn’t seem to be anything until the dose. That’s what I think when they chase terrible.

00:38:14:25 –> 00:38:35:19
What so have you, you know, I see all these decoys and the, you know, white t-shirts and you know, a lot of times when I think about you, I think I see you the most common side is a white T-shirt. I didn’t know if that had to do with the hunt or you know, tell us about that kind of stuff. The decoy or Well any of that work or you use any of that, those kind of tactics.

00:38:36:18 –> 00:39:34:19
Yeah, I think early, early on. I mean I remember having a white hanky in my pocket and laying out in the field and started flagging and you know, like I had read in some sports of field or field of stream book, you know Yeah. Many moons ago when I was a boy and I thought wow, that really works. But you know, it, it always comes to a point, the bigger bucks obviously are at least three or older that works a lot on two year olds decoys. Yeah. All that stuff will work. Yeah. It just works to a point. Yeah. Once a buck has seen it, he’s going to circle to the wind side of you and try to wind you before he gets real close. Yeah, I’ve seen that a lot. But like I say, everything kinda works to a degree. Everybody comes out with new objects, you know, antelope suits. It’s like, okay, you’re not gonna catch me in an antelope suit.

00:39:35:27 –> 00:39:37:06
Come on Tony, come on. My,

00:39:37:06 –> 00:39:41:29
The older I work I get the more I like living. Yes. You know?

00:39:43:00 –> 00:39:43:19
Yeah, that’s true.

00:39:44:02 –> 00:40:34:29
My, I did, I did hunt in a white t-shirt quite a bit back when it benefited me. Yeah. You know, governor’s tag a lot of times, you know, I, I’ve had guys say, get behind me, they’ll see you, they’ll see you. Well I’ll serpentine behind the hunter, you know, the, the guys that, that wanna lead the pack instead of follow. But Yeah. But it confuses the animal and I can hold them longer. Yeah. Because they are curious. They wanna know what the heck’s going on. Why do I see, why, why do I don’t. Yeah. But you know, it’s, you know, hunting them, you know, it’s like once they see you stay seen. Yeah. Don’t try to hide once they, once they know you’re there. Yeah. That, that’s probably the one of the biggest mistakes hunters make for antelope. ’cause they’re not deer and elk.

00:40:35:10 –> 00:40:58:07
Well, and when you’re talking about flagging them and decoyed ’em and stuff, it’s probably a lot like when Adam and I are, you know, other guys are hunting elk or something, a lot of times, you know, if you want to just hunt elk Yeah. Go calling ’em. But if you want to hunt a specific elk or a specific bull or a specific antelope, you’re, you know, it’s not about just decoyed the masses or calling the masses or, or whatever. So.

00:40:59:18 –> 00:41:12:26
Well that’s, that’s true. That’s true. They’re, they’re different worlds. I’ve, you know, I’ve been around guys that, that guide for antelope and they hunt ’em like deer certain guys and I said, no, you gotta hunt ’em differently.

00:41:13:07 –> 00:42:05:28
So if you were, if you were talking, I mean you guys talking about like we did earlier, the, the ear length, the face length to get real references based on where you’re hunting and things like that to really ultra break down a buck for, you know, score, you know, 85, 90, 90 plus. Those are very important things in the, and the average that you give us, I think are probably more applicable to the average guys. But for, for most people that draw an antelope tag or get an antelope tag and they’re, they’re gonna go hunt, what do you, what emphasis do you think when you’re looking at horns and, and you know, if we’re, if we’re just taking an average face an averaged eared antelope, what do you, what do you think you’d impress upon them to look for if they’re trying to kill an 80 inch plus or 82 inch plus buck? What do you, what emphasis should you say look for this more than this for instance?

00:42:06:18 –> 00:42:50:24
Well, you know, I I, you know, obviously length is the easiest thing to see. Prongs are the easiest thing to see. Both are length, you know, you got two length measurements per horn prongs and the length of the horn all the way to the tip. So those are what most people can do easily. The hardest thing to score and is the most important to me is the mass. There’s four measurements per side ’cause of the quarters. And, and you have to have a reference for that mass. And we use the, i the i width is typically one seven on, you know, 85% antelope probably it’s, it’s right close to that number. It’s

00:42:50:24 –> 00:42:52:28
1, 1 7, 8, 1 and seven eight.

00:42:53:05 –> 00:43:08:01
Yes. From, from black to black on the eye. And you know, we use that and then place it on the base and kind, you know, visualize that and, and figure out how heavy the buck is.

00:43:08:09 –> 00:43:26:01
Since you’re dealing with a diameter of the horn obviously, and you’re looking at a flat side of the base versus an eye, what, what are you looking for? How, how much wider than the eye or, or whatever do you try to, is a, is a great width. ’cause obviously they can, they can be fat, you know. Oh

00:43:26:01 –> 00:44:31:18
Yeah. On the side too. Yeah. They can be real. Correct. I mean I’ve had bucks that look tremendous from the side and they turn to look at you and I go, where’d the buck go? You know, I mean you literally think it’s a different buck because he’s super thin from the front. Yeah. So he has to be even that much bigger from the side to get to that number that you’re so-called looking for, you know, or that, you know, you visualize what he was from the side and from the front you may either go up or down on that and there’s, you know, obviously it’s math and my son’s probably better at that than I’m, but he, he’s come up with, you know, ways, you know, to, because it’s not an oval but it’s Yeah. Like an oval with a, you know, more of a triangular front. Yeah. So the way they’re shaped. So, you know, and he’s developed little systems that, that he uses and he’s, he is kind of a numbers guy that way. And I kind of got a gut instinct type of thing the way I do it.

00:44:32:02 –> 00:44:32:16
Old school.

00:44:32:18 –> 00:44:33:26
Yeah. Old school. So just get

00:44:33:26 –> 00:44:34:20
Outta the way, like

00:44:34:20 –> 00:44:47:18
It works very well. Shoot him, it works very well together. But usually I defer to the, the computer numbers that, that he comes up with. Do you? When all the, if I’m not sure, you know. Yeah. But

00:44:48:05 –> 00:45:06:18
Well that’s like we, us and mule deer, when they’re like 10 by 10, you pretty much shoot ’em, but Exactly. If you wanna break, but you can break ’em down and break down their frame, break down the extras and the mass. But what are you, you’re talking about the, the numbers, like what are the magic numbers? What do you want that first circumference second, third? Well,

00:45:06:19 –> 00:45:38:12
You know, probably an old number that you’ve heard a lot is 7 7 7 on, you know, the bottom two mass measure, you know, bottom two mass and top mass, the two combined on top. If, if, if that re that’s 21 a mass, well, you know, then on length you gotta, you know, 16 and a five or a a 15 and a six as far as a prong and the length. And then you’ve got a 42 inch, 21 and 21. Yeah, that’s, yeah, that’s two. That’s an 84 inch, that’s 84 inches.

00:45:38:24 –> 00:45:39:20
Yeah. You

00:45:39:20 –> 00:46:03:06
Know that that’s, that’s been our average over the 701 bucks. So that would be what we would consider a shooter. You know, obviously 80 two’s Buckhead and it’s a shooter. We look for bigger, but you know, it depends on where you’re at. What yeah. Where are you in your hunting? You the first 20 minutes or you in the last day or

00:46:03:06 –> 00:46:09:29
Are you in a unit that hasn’t killed the book buck in 20 years, you know Exactly. There’s an 82 or three entry, you probably ought to shoot it.

00:46:10:07 –> 00:46:18:01
Talk about, talk a little bit about what you guys look for like in the position of the prong, you know, how far up the horn and that, how that changes the mass.

00:46:19:08 –> 00:46:43:05
Okay. That the prong positioning is strictly it. It’s which book you you’re interested in. S C I or Boone and Crockett. The lower the prong in Boone and Crockett, typically the better off you are because you got a better first, first quarter and base, which are the two biggest mass measurements on the buck. So that, ’cause

00:46:43:05 –> 00:46:50:24
You’re starting to get that swelling on the prong if it’s lower. Correct. It’s starting to swell a little bit on the correct on the second mass measurement. Correct. Okay.

00:46:50:25 –> 00:47:07:00
Yeah. And then ss c i it’s relative, it’s not easy, but it’s easier to get three under the prong because if it touches a prong anywhere on the second quarter, you go below, below to the biggest measurement, either the first quarter or the base.

00:47:07:07 –> 00:47:11:17
And BNC is always two below and two above, right? Is that right?

00:47:11:28 –> 00:47:23:26
Well, most of the time, probably 98% of the time. That’s correct. There you can get three under the prong if the prong is so high that there’s no prong swelling in the measurement.

00:47:24:14 –> 00:47:32:25
I see. So that’s the definition. Any prong swelling, it’s, it’s gonna go below and you’re and you’re moving to the third one above, I guess is what you’re saying?

00:47:34:00 –> 00:47:35:01
Yeah. And being sued.

00:47:35:01 –> 00:47:35:12

00:47:35:25 –> 00:47:44:17
Yeah. And, and and then if the second quarter is anywhere on that prong, even the very bottom, if if they consider that part of the prong, it goes above

00:47:46:05 –> 00:47:46:09

00:47:46:24 –> 00:47:48:20
Why the second quarter? So second, third quarter be

00:47:48:24 –> 00:48:21:08
Above. And that ex that explains, you knows for me especially you, why you’ll see some bucks a wide discrepancy in an S c I would and a B C gross versus score. Oh yeah. That’s why you see that four to six, I don’t know, inches on, on a, on a rare occasion that’s a big swing when in reality like A B N C gross, an s c i gross typical mule deer Yeah. Should be the exact same without Right. With minor variations in the score where this is, it can be a dramatically, dramatically different number. Well

00:48:21:08 –> 00:48:37:25
We had two bucks this year that were killed in Wyoming that were actually this year, that one in Wyoming, one in Arizona that were 87 and 87 2 net. So Boone and Crockett, that’s what they were in s c i one was 94 2 and the other was 93

00:48:38:00 –> 00:48:39:22
Because you got three below.

00:48:40:14 –> 00:49:30:20
Yeah. Instead of a a four and a half or five inch second quarter you got seven something. Yeah. That’s crazy. So you know, you’s you can grow as many as three inches per side. Yeah. So it can be six inches difference. Yeah. But you know, so it’s, it’s, other than that particular thing, inches, the books are virtually the same. Yeah. That’s the, the prong is a, the prong is a little bit different because it’s the upper outer edge of the prong for Boone and Crockett and the outer upper. So they just switch the two. So it’s just slightly different on the prong. So the prong should never be more than a half inch difference from, from, you know, book to book. Yeah. Or rarely more than that. But yeah.

00:49:31:12 –> 00:49:40:07
Well, let’s, let’s jump into, you know, a big buck story or two. I mean, tell us about this giant Wyoming buck. We just kinda want to hear the story behind him state

00:49:40:07 –> 00:49:40:27
Record, but,

00:49:41:26 –> 00:50:27:24
Well, the one, the one we took, I believe it was four or five years ago, we were kind of in a oil field area of Wyoming and southern Wyoming. And you know, we, we pull up and, and you know, I, I see this buck way out a mile and a half. It’s got giant prongs. So we’re trying to find a way to get to it. And of course we run into dead end after dead end ’cause these roads don’t go anywhere. And we see two hunters get out of their truck with rifles and spotting scopes and they hike up to this one buck that’d been chasing a dough back and forth. And we noticed a button and knew it was pretty big. It just, he had this wide alkali all over his horn, so it kind of didn’t give you any depth perception of the horns.

00:50:28:09 –> 00:51:06:26
So we didn’t realize how big it was because of that. ’cause we weren’t close anyway. So we watched these guys look at this bucket a hundred yards and turn around and go back, get in their truck and leave. Yeah. And, and, and on the guy in the back seat, he’s 81 years old, he says, Hey, if that buck’s over 83, I’m shooting him. And we got closer obviously. I said, oh yeah, he’s over 83. You know, so guy gets out and shoots a buck. Well, you know, walking up on him, I’m like, holy cow. You know, the buck was 91 4 net. It was seven 17 inches long. I’m like, what were they looking for? Wow. You know?

00:51:07:00 –> 00:51:17:26
What did you, what was your, what did your gut, of course Adam and I, there’s so many questions, but what did your gut tell you when you, when he asked you, is he over 83? I mean, did you feel like that was, that you were looking at a 90 inch?

00:51:18:26 –> 00:51:19:02

00:51:19:27 –> 00:51:20:14
What made

00:51:20:14 –> 00:51:51:00
Him absolutely not. I’d love to tell you. I I I was right on. But, but no, I just knew he was over 83 and that was, that was what was in my head because they didn’t look for more than that. Yeah. I was, it was only like my second or third year up Wyoming and we weren’t familiar with that unit and, you know, never seen a 17 inch in Wyoming. So it was hard to picture that. But my goal was 83, that number was in my head. And I I I saw that and knew it was that. So

00:51:51:05 –> 00:51:52:06
Get out and kill it, you

00:51:52:06 –> 00:52:14:05
Know? Yeah, yeah. Exactly. So I wasn’t really nitpicking for a bigger buck and so I didn’t spend any time and let it process. And, you know, that that’s, that’s what scouting’s all about. But see, we’d just seen the buck saw these guys pass and I thought, why are they passing this buck? He looks big enough. And you know,

00:52:14:14 –> 00:52:20:16
You always wonder, I, I mean my mind’s thinking, I wonder if those two guys know that you killed that.

00:52:20:23 –> 00:52:22:12
Do they know it was a 91 inch or no?

00:52:22:17 –> 00:52:24:27
Do they ever know? No, probably don’t ly, but

00:52:24:27 –> 00:52:27:03
Like they No, absolutely not seen.

00:52:27:03 –> 00:52:28:28
They would just assume not know. I’m sure I,

00:52:29:00 –> 00:52:55:24
I’ve seen that dozens of times up there. I really have. ’cause guys are looking for a particular look. Yeah. They want hooks or they want width or you know, my son for instance on Facebook and blogs and message boards all the time. And he keeps hearing this same statement said over and over that, oh, if it’s big, you’ll know it’s big from different people,

00:52:56:05 –> 00:52:56:16
Not true.

00:52:57:06 –> 00:53:18:14
And, and then he’ll throw a picture up. Well how big’s this one? The guy will say 80 inches. Well it’s a 91 inch buck. Yeah. And it was, it’s a live photo. So, you know, you know, throwing his theory right out the window of oh, you’ll know it when you see it. That’s not true with antelope. They hide it so well when they’re heavy. Yeah.

00:53:18:20 –> 00:53:28:19
Well and that’s why we’re having this discussion with you so heavy on scoring. It’s like when you see a big mul deer, you do know it. You know, when you see a big antelope, I mean, seems

00:53:28:19 –> 00:53:33:00
Like half the time you might know it and the other half you’re like, ah, what’s that? You know?

00:53:33:15 –> 00:54:15:22
Yeah. We took a buck two years ago in New Mexico for instance, one of our governors tag guys shot ’em, it was netted 90, so it gross more than that, but it netted 90. And another fella that that works in New Mexico found it and he showed it to me. He said, I know you won’t wanna shoot him because I’ve showed you 10 bucks bigger than this. And he still can’t understand to this day how that buck was that big because he just didn’t see it. Yeah. And when I saw it, I said, oh, this is a good buck. And he thought I was nuts. And it was all about the mass that, you know, he thought that was the, in the, you know, second 10 bucks instead of the top buck. Yeah. So,

00:54:16:06 –> 00:55:04:13
Well that’s just obviously a testament to your experience to some extent in a totally different way. But sheep can be a little bit like that too. Some people come to hunt sheep with something in their mind with a big twist of ram that flares out, which are almost non-existent in the desert sheep and to some extent Rocky Mountain, Bighorn world. But they get it in their mind and that’s what they want. Even though that’s usually means it’s a four, five year old ram that hasn’t broomed anything yet. You know, and with Antelope, you know, and I know growing up, I mean there’s people that love looking for white antelope. If you’re ever born bred hunting mule deer, you grow up, you want those flared out 20 inch wide antelope ’cause that, hey, I killed a 20 here. You know, and that means nothing on an antelope other than that’s a unique look I guess.

00:55:04:14 –> 00:55:52:16
You know what I mean? So it does. Yeah, that’s true. If you get somebody with something stuck in their mind, it’s, they can overlook what if they’re really thinking they’re wanting for a book Antelope. You know, I had a chance last year just got flat out lucky and drew an antelope tag last year in unit 10 myself. And you know, by no stretch of the imagination of I hunted antelope a lot, but, you know, knew that if I ever drew an Arizona antelope tag, I probably had something worthwhile to try to look over. And you know, you’ve, I know you guys killed some giants there like you do everywhere else, but it would just simply cover the numbers, but I, you know, I, I used a lot of your, I guess you and Eli’s stuff from your, from your website and whatnot to give me some reference and things like that, because you’re right.

00:55:52:20 –> 00:56:47:20
I mean, I, I, I just about drove to Flagstaff a day or two before my hunt and got my tag in my son’s name because I just was, I don’t wanna say unimpressed, but it was like, I figured if I saw something, you know, Gish Yeah. Like you’ve killed before Tony so many times with, you know, Mike Gallo or any of these other guys, these monsters. Like, alright, that’s what I want. But I just felt like I was looking at nice antelope, which, which I was anyway, circumstances, you know, pulling him outta school and all that didn’t last. So I ended up, I ended up going shooting, opening day shooting the best one that I thought I had found. And, and he was a little better than I thought. He was like 86 and seven inches. And I’d found him earlier in the summer. In fact, Eli sent me pictures of the buck. You guys had seen him too. It’s not, and I’m like, yeah, you can’t get anything by then. But you guys were, after the 90 inches and I I 86,

00:56:47:20 –> 00:56:48:17
You were 87. Yeah.

00:56:49:16 –> 00:56:50:04
You know, so,

00:56:50:16 –> 00:57:44:14
But the biggest buck in the state last year was in unit 10. And we actually, I actually, we took it on the second buck. We’d kill a different one right. At Daybreak. And this buck, we called him hooks and, you know, at a thousand yards, everybody thought he was 80 inches. There were guide after guide that passed him. And, but I, we had seen that buck close, so we knew that he was way bigger than that. And we killed him at 785 yards. And, you know, he blew me away. ’cause I thought he was pushing 90, but I had no idea he was 93. Geez. Because because he, he never stood around very long and clearly, you know, there were a bunch of mad guides. They, they came back to look at the buck and they said, I can’t believe it. I thought he was 80 and I just looked at him this morning,

00:57:44:18 –> 00:57:52:15
Be 13 inches and not, it’s not like a 200 and versus a 213 inch mule there, it’s a 80 versus 93

00:57:53:28 –> 00:57:54:09

00:57:54:10 –> 00:57:57:24
Yeah. Mine well be 50 inches difference in all reality. It,

00:57:57:29 –> 00:57:58:05

00:57:58:05 –> 00:58:10:28
Feels like that. Yeah. When you figure in Boone and Crockett from the top to the bottom of the book is, is 14 and a half inches. Yeah. The number one buck to the bottom buck. And that, that includes like 3,500 animals,

00:58:11:02 –> 00:58:13:21
82 to 96 and change. Yeah. Wow.

00:58:14:01 –> 00:58:16:26
Yeah. So there you go. What,

00:58:17:02 –> 00:58:39:15
What, what kind of glass do you like to use? Like, tell me about your optics and your setup. You’re, you know, you’re judging these very minute tiny, you know, measurements and whatnot compared to an elk or something. So glass would make an important, you know, difference. Are you using doctor optics or cows or just the Swarovski’s or Zeis? I mean, what do you guys like to use?

00:58:40:16 –> 00:59:14:18
Well actually we’ve got, I used to use Swarovski. My son had a LICO scope and now he’s moved on to the X SROs scope, which is great for video and stuff with the wide angle lens. And I’ve been using a MoPTA, which is just as good as far as I’m concerned other than that few minutes early and late. And I love the eye piece of it. And of course, you know, with that being said, we both have, BTX is coming from Roski. Oh yeah.

00:59:14:23 –> 00:59:16:01
We, we’ve got ’em on order

00:59:16:28 –> 00:59:42:28
And we’ve got the Highlander, you know, the, the, the cows, the, the fancy one, you know, the expensive one. Yeah. And they’re just, they’re just heavy. I mean, other than that, they’re, they’re fantastic. Yeah. And we use, you know, Leica Leica and the Sig Sour Range finders and, and the new Leica, you know, goes out to a thousand yards. We can dial our rifles right in,

00:59:43:07 –> 01:00:03:07
You know, it’s hard to range find out there in those wide open flats. I mean, on Adam, Adam had a little bit of that here and there, but on his hump. But I mean, it’s hard to range find them if you have you got a little, any tips on how to do that more effectively? I mean, you’re looking across those wide open expanses and stuff.

01:00:04:08 –> 01:00:06:24
Yeah, probably learn how to guess Well

01:00:08:19 –> 01:00:09:26
Go with your gut again, huh?

01:00:10:12 –> 01:00:57:02
Yeah, it, it, I mean literally I’ve, I’ve, I’ve got a vetros who, you know, used to have to have Homeland Security to buy those. And now they, they actually have a commercial model and they, I have range out the 4,800 come on, 4,800 plus yards and with an antelope. The farthest reading I have ever got on an antelope was I think 1,110 yards. Yeah. And that was with the TROs, obviously with Leica and Zeiss and all the others, if you’re lucky and the light conditions are good, you’ll get a 700, maybe 800 yard reading. So you, you, you’re probably gonna be hitting ground or rocks or, or a vehicle or a barn or something other than that to tell you how far an animal is. Yeah. At least for an antelope.

01:00:57:02 –> 01:01:18:29
Unfortunately, the only, yeah, if you’ve got an area with scattered, you know, pinion juniper or something like that, you’re, you’re lucky because you might have a chance to hit that. But when it’s flat, it’s, and as you all know, looks flat, you, you hit where the antelope’s standing or if you’re hitting the ridge slightly behind it, 125 yards and it’s, well, that’s a big difference. It’s, it’s, you’re gonna miss him. It’s not even gonna be close. So.

01:01:19:23 –> 01:01:45:08
Yep. And that’s why I tell guys the, the flattest shooting rifle that you bring, the better, obviously we have 1500 yard rifles, all three of us, and they all work and we dial ’em in and our longest shot to date is 10 26 and we’ve got a 9 83 bunch of 800 pluses. So yeah. You know, we’re able to do it, but you have to have the right get,

01:01:45:19 –> 01:01:57:19
I gotta have the right range. We’ll, any other crazy, crazy experiences or notable stories that you’ve had out there in the field? You know, knocking down hundreds and hundreds of bookbook?

01:01:59:06 –> 01:02:19:12
Yeah, prob probably, you know, I mean, they’ll all come to me when I, when we hang up, but no, I, you know, nothing that I can think of that, that was just kind of a funny story and, and the fact that it worked out for us made it even better. Yeah.

01:02:19:25 –> 01:02:35:25
Of the 701, you said 400 and some odd were being seen net official books, but take it to the next level. You probably know like how many, how many 90 inches or things like that have you taken and, and notable giants

01:02:36:21 –> 01:02:47:09
66 over 90 B and C and 114 over 90 Ss c i, including obviously the world record in both books,

01:02:48:24 –> 01:02:50:21
Which is Tell us, which is

01:02:51:02 –> 01:03:01:06
90 96 4 B and C. And actually my brother in 1986 in New Mexico killed the S c I World record at 99 7.

01:03:01:25 –> 01:03:06:23
Couldn’t quite hit a hundred. Dang it. What an eighth, right? There’s there’s needed

01:03:06:26 –> 01:03:08:15
To be just a little drier that year.

01:03:09:26 –> 01:03:11:20
It was an eighth off. Geez.

01:03:11:29 –> 01:03:18:03
Oh wow. You think that’ll ever happen? You think there’s a hundred inches if possible. And I know we’re talking probably

01:03:18:29 –> 01:03:34:07
S c i. Yeah, we took number, we took number two over in New Mexico in a different area and he had a broken horn. So his one horn was 14.7, his other one was 16 and he grossed 99 2. So had he had that tip Ooh,

01:03:34:18 –> 01:03:34:25

01:03:34:25 –> 01:03:40:05
We’re talking 16 inches he had inch and an eighth. Yeah, 16 inches. That would’ve been a hundred inches. So

01:03:40:05 –> 01:03:47:08
That shows you how important mass is. I mean, people might think it needed to be a 20, a 21 inch or something, something

01:03:47:08 –> 01:03:54:01
Ridiculous. Well, his second quarters were as big as most bases. I mean they were like six one and six three above the prompt.

01:03:54:06 –> 01:04:06:24
Above the prompt. Six plus. That’s unbelievable. So it’s ridiculous. Yeah. Sounds like that’s possible. It’d be a triple digit official antelope would be pretty, not that a 90 inches not special.

01:04:06:24 –> 01:04:12:19
What’s your goal? Let’s talk about the, what’s your, what’s your goals? You, you met all your original goals now, what are the new goals?

01:04:13:17 –> 01:04:32:08
Yeah, my, you know, in fact I just passed one of my goals of 190 enter a year ago, a year and a half ago. But, so yeah, I kind of had to develop new goals and that’s one goal I would like to is, I mean, my brother doesn’t wanna see me do it, but I’d like to break the sci world record.

01:04:32:21 –> 01:04:39:00
Yeah, yeah. That’s about all else that’s left for you is a hundred inch your official I guess is something

01:04:39:04 –> 01:04:48:00
Yeah. That, that would be sweet. And, and maybe even break the Boone and Crockett record again. Yeah. I don’t know if that’s entirely possible, but maybe,

01:04:48:10 –> 01:04:55:17
Maybe the right buck. Well, tell us about Eli a little bit. How old is he? When did he start, you know, get major involvement?

01:04:56:04 –> 01:05:11:18
Eli’s 36 and he pretty much started when he was six and seven every birthday. I said, what do you want to do? He says, take me antelope scouting. Yeah. And not, not camping, not to the toy store, but take the Antelope Scout. So that’s kind how

01:05:12:02 –> 01:05:15:29
He’s probably probably the only kid in the United States that I know probably ever said that.

01:05:17:11 –> 01:05:19:13
Yeah. Might, might be. Might be.

01:05:19:20 –> 01:05:23:17
Well, and that’s why he is, is what he is. Chip off the old block. Sounds like

01:05:24:13 –> 01:05:46:02
I had a guide get hurt back in when he was, I don’t know, 16 or 18 or whatever it was. I got an emergency 10 day guides license that they allowed in New Mexico. And that’s kind of how he started. And he killed I think one of the biggest bucks that year and we had a tough area. Yeah. And I think he killed one close to 84 with his client.

01:05:46:21 –> 01:05:46:29

01:05:47:15 –> 01:06:07:26
Crazy. And that was kind of how he started. And, and he’s just been getting better and better and better. And, and him and Dave Brown, my other guide, there’s just three of us and Dave’s been with us for 19 years and Yeah. And as good as they get. So these two guys will be running the show before too long.

01:06:08:06 –> 01:06:12:06
Yeah. Well, maybe not. You got plenty of years left. So

01:06:12:07 –> 01:06:19:00
That’s a good thing about Antelope is I think you’re saying, was that, is that Wyoming client? Was he 80 years old? 80, 81.

01:06:19:12 –> 01:06:21:00
Yeah. Well that’s why I,

01:06:21:16 –> 01:06:26:16
I mean you, you got, you know, an antelope when you’re, I mean, you can pull a trigger still, you can still hunt antelope most

01:06:26:16 –> 01:06:36:08
The time. Well, you asked me what, what drew me to them. And other than the other things I said, I, I thought to myself, well this is something I can do when I get really old. Well, I’m almost there.

01:06:38:08 –> 01:07:00:00
Well, it’s a lot of experience and you know, we sure appreciate you taking time today and what a, what a treat it is for us to learn from one of the best there ever has been as far as killing giant antelope and making a li livelihood out of it. Never, you know, just almost didn’t dream that a guy could make a full on, you know, livelihood for geez, decades. Yeah. Killing big

01:07:00:01 –> 01:07:17:08
Anl. Yeah. We had had 44 hundreds last year, one of our bigger years. I mean, we’ve had two or three years of that kind of number and yeah, it’s, it’s a lot of work. It, and like I say, it’s pretty much year round for us now. The hunting isn’t, but everything else is.

01:07:17:11 –> 01:07:26:28
Yep. Yeah. It takes a lot to, to do it full time and Well, that’s great. Well, anything else you wanna leave us with as we, as we shut this thing down? Well,

01:07:27:24 –> 01:07:48:23
You know, if a guy doesn’t, doesn’t wanna hire us or talk to us or, or you know, he can always learn from our two videos that we have out. And you know, one is, it sizes everything one and sizes everything two. And got, I think 17 kills on the second one of 90 inch bucks or bigger.

01:07:49:13 –> 01:07:49:20

01:07:49:25 –> 01:08:14:05
And the first one does a, I do a 30 minute field judging seminar in it. And pretty much a lot of that stuff I, I probably couldn’t quote you today because you know, you, you don’t religiously do it on every buck. You tend to forget some of the important things. Yeah. The videos. Sometimes I have to look at it to refresh my brain.

01:08:14:11 –> 01:08:18:04
Yeah. Well good. And how can, how can people get ahold of those? Tony?

01:08:19:10 –> 01:08:30:05
On our website, pronghorn guide Okay. And they can order it through there. And Sportsman’s Warehouse used to carry it. Cabelas. Yeah.

01:08:30:07 –> 01:08:39:12
Okay. All right. Well we sure appreciate you taking time. You know, we’ve learned a lot and God, what a treat it was. So really appreciate you.

01:08:39:12 –> 01:08:53:02
Thanks a lot and wish you a great year. You guys this summer kicks in here a lot of the draw results. I know Arizona and New Mexico are out and Wyoming’s yet to come. Yeah. So hope you guys have a great year and we look forward to seeing a bunch of giant photos from you later in the fall.

01:08:54:00 –> 01:08:59:28
Well cool. I appreciate it and it was fun. Okay. We’ll get you some big photos of big bucks this year.

01:09:00:01 –> 01:09:13:14
Sounds great. Yeah, we just wanna close down. We really appreciate Under Armour and being able to sponsor this podcast and work with us a on it and well, we’ll go from there and looking forward to putting our hands on some more big Antelope

01:09:14:26 –> 01:09:16:06
Alrightyy. Thank you. All right,

01:09:16:06 –> 01:09:16:20
Thanks Tony.

01:09:17:12 –> 01:09:18:02
Okay, bye-Bye.