EP 36: Making it Happen with Calvin Halladay

we were broke college kids um adams hunted baby's butte i hunted john day i mean we'd climb up two and three thousand vertical feet in all these different canyons anything to do with western big game welcome to the epic outdoors podcast powered by under armor hey everybody jason carter natta bronson here on the epic outdoors podcast uh knocking out another one um this one's pretty awesome this is a guy up and coming outfit and business uh with cal holiday that's uh representing the business sheep mountain outfitters super excited to have him on here he's kind of been changing the game a little bit in oregon bringing some uh uh you know new energy yeah new energy excitement to to a state that hasn't been that exciting in the recent history here but uh he's definitely knocking down some great animals adam and i've hunted it we actually

are somewhat fond of oregon both taking a sheep up there and so anyway it's going to be a fun podcast um before we get into that we want to thank under armor for sponsoring these podcasts and uh supporting us here at epic outdoors super partner of ours and uh just appreciate them and and all that they're doing for us as well as the hunting industry so with that said let's get him on the line what's going on man oh you know just just wrapping up some last minute loose ends and then headed back out all right on you're not on vacation or something there's nothing to do in late july adam and i were talking figuring you're just out screwing off there's nothing to do in late july in oregon remember i'm a young guy i still got to work for a living all right we know what's going on we know you're pulling your hair out and

babysitting getting to that stressful time babysitting yeah babysitting rams that like to walk or what oh god you're killing me you lose years off your life when you're you know going through these five or six days i found the first gray hair in my beard the other day and i just turned 27 last week it's not a good thing 27 i don't even remember 27 you remember 27 bronson i tell people that they said no way you are 27 i'm like yeah i'm a 90s kid 90s huh is 27 part of the millennials what's the definition of millennial born in 2000 oh okay later right i don't know i was in grade school then so definitely not all right well cool we'll uh well let's dive into this thing tell us a little bit about uh you know how you got started what you did as a kid and then you know what kind of drove you to you know work in the hunting industry yeah sure um i think i started out like a

lot of people my dad was a big influence early on uh as far as hunting goes and i got into it and uh i i tell you it didn't take long for me to realize that i was kind of my passion for hunting was a little bit different than say my father or his his hunting buddies you know i remember going to to rifle elk camp and it was more of a a vacation away from mom and and all the wives and more of a social event now the wives want to go and then and now the wives want to go and nowadays we're supposed to take them or we're jerks yeah so i mean at an early early age i realized you know i had early on success and it's just because i spent more time in the woods i didn't understand why we should go back to camp at 10 a.m and have breakfast and go back out at four you know yeah um so i stayed out all the time and and pretty early on i i just started killing more elk and more

deer and and everybody's going gosh this kid is so lucky this kid is so lucky he does this and that but um early on i just realized that the harder you worked at it the more successful you were you were and uh so i just stuck with that and as i got into college um out of high school i kind of switched over to archery hunting because the season worked better with with school so i could hunt almost an entire month i mean i i went to uh eastern oregon university just so i could hunt i mean that's literally the only reason i chose to go to that school are you from your younger years you were from oregon anyway though i am yep i'm oregon born and raised um but i i grew up on the west side of the state and moved uh to the east side of the state about 10 years ago just for school um met my wife there she's born and raised in le grand um so we've lived there ever since and i i don't have any

intentions or plans on moving i really love it there so when you uh you know so when you're talking about like your childhood and success and hunting camps and all that you're talking about general season over-the-counter type hunts there in oregon like that's what you guys did you're correct yeah and that that's really uh the basis of a lot of this oregon hunting especially with a rifle um i remember it was spike only rifle elk season and that is that is all i knew um yeah so that's how i got my start yeah well to be successful to be successful and over-the-counter you know type hunts that's i mean that tells you a lot right there and to do it on a regular basis grind it out yeah you gotta grind it out you definitely do you gotta outwork the next guy and uh you know highly pressured units highly pressured elk lots of people uh not a lot of roadless areas in the particular units we were

hunting so you just had to you had to grind it out above the rest of the people but um yeah that's that's pretty much how i got my start and then uh i met my wife early on in college and i i think the real stepping off point was my wife drew a sheep tag in 2012 in oregon um and that kind of started me down a rabbit hole that now looking back five six years later i could have never anticipated that i'd be in the position i am today yeah so talk about that yeah talk about that a little more i mean we can all you know remember the picture it's just a freaking awesome ram and and uh you know a gal that did it and whatnot and so it's just one of those things that um anyway but tell us a little bit about that like you just decided you want to start guiding them you wanted more of those experiences what i mean

how did that how did it actually change your direction it uh i really it boils down to mentorship and i i really think that is what has slingshotted me into the position i am at such a young age i've had some of the best mentors a young hunter a young guide young outfitter could ever hope for um so in 2012 we're just college kids and she draws a big horn sheep tag in oregon and hell's canyon arguably probably the top unit in oregon um and i we didn't know crap guys we were we were broke college kids um killing spike elk oh goodness i i was working nights at a grocery store putting myself through school and my wife was working at a local convenience store gas station down the street and we were just making ends meet going through college and here we had this opportunity in a lifetime to fall in our

laps yeah and uh so we i i remember we drove down there i made her quit her job because her boss wouldn't give her time off that's hilarious i did i said for big animals i said we will eat spaghettios and and bread i mean i don't care we're gonna make this happen and we're gonna get 100 pounds of sheep meat at the end of it we'll be all right sheep meat only and we're gonna rely on that so um i remember we we'd skip school and and summer on thursdays and fridays and we basically we'd go four days on down in hell's canyon come back for three days and it's just enough to pass our classes and and pay the rent um that was about it and we got down there and uh we didn't have optics we didn't have four wheelers we didn't have any of the stuff we needed um but early on adam i think you know dan blankenship real well um i had heard this name from people and it said you got to talk to

dan talk to dan talk to dan so i incidentally ran into dan blankenship a guy and it's probably a relationship that changed my life because we walk into his driveway and he comes out and goes you must be shelby right off the bat he knew who we were he knew the draw list or something he knew the draw and dan is really well known at that time you know he really wasn't guiding or anything he was just uh helping out who he felt like helping out and then not helping people he didn't feel like helping so and he lives in the unit he's got a place right on the unit so he's these sheep are in his backyard yeah he does most most incredible hunter i've ever been around in my life extremely talented man and and just a great person and and mentor i couldn't have hoped for a better opportunity but you know dan didn't hand anything over to us he really he made it earth he actually in fact never

went out and looking with us a single time never showed us a ram never nothing but he taught me everything i know about scoring sheep and finding sheep and we'd look at maps and review maps we'd roll into his cabin just dusty and tired and and defeated and i'd bring him photos that i had taken and i'd say what what about this ram dan what do you think about this ram and it was about seven or eight weeks into the scouting and uh i finally turned up a really really impressive big ram and and my wife shelby goes uh girlfriend at the time you know she goes that's the ram i want to shoot right there and i knew he was big but i didn't know what i was looking at and i remember sliding the uh the picture across the table to dan and dan just kind of smirked at us and said you found him you better kill it you better kill you found it i mean so he had him named but wasn't saying anything

just going to let you try to find him that's correct and he he just made me earn it from everywhere um he didn't throw me off he didn't give me tip he just said you know cal go out and look and and we just humped it we'd leave we'd leave camp but if you've ever been in that country we'd leave camp at three or four in the morning and we'd climb up two and three thousand vertical feet into all these different canyons and see what we could find um so we turned the ram up but that was just the beginning of the story because we had a tag um in the unit and there was one other hunter but before that the auction tag and the raffle hunter got to hunt and um dan knew the rat the auction hunter at that time and he came into the unit with a i mean a truckload of of guides from utah and different states around and hey don't be bashing utah guys it wasn't me it wasn't me i wasn't up there

there's some utah guys that came in and um so they hunted the unit um real hard and we just you know we were looking at our number two and three ram thinking there's no way this ram is going to survive this story's going to get good lo and behold uh they didn't turn the ram up and he was living in the in the oddest of spots and that's why they didn't find him so did was dan was dan helping them at all or just kind of like with you just friends with everybody he was dan was very good about being mutual friends with everybody and so dan didn't didn't compromise your ram obviously he didn't that's that's correct he just said you know you guys got to be realistic with the possibility more likely than not that ram's going to get killed yeah um you know there was guys here we were with bushnell binoculars you know and there's guys out there with swarovski spotting scopes on every ridge

and and looking and we just didn't think there'd be a chance he survived but i you know like those big old sheep do he found a little pocket that he wasn't getting messed with and he lived there the whole season and they didn't turn him up thankfully wow um so the auction hunter killed a beautiful ram really nice ram uh mid upper 180s and then the raffle hunter killed a nice ram as well and before you know it we were turned over ready to go and uh they killed both of them in your unit or her that's that's correct and uh lately in oregon were these other i don't mean to cut you off but were these other rams the other two rams that they killed the auction raffle i mean were they rams you had seen also they were yes um the one that the the auction hunter killed was our number three ram okay so uh we were definitely looking he was in a pretty easy spot to find and he was found he was

real long in one side broom back on the other beautiful ram i think he was 86 if i remember correctly wow um and the hunter he was from california he killed the ram and and was ecstatic um but before you know it here we are it's your kids and now it's our turn you know and um the ram had boogied and moved like the big ones do right before the season started and uh we went over a week early before the hunt started and i couldn't believe it it was like a it was a total god moment for us climbing the hill in the last evening before the last time hadn't seen the ram in two weeks and really come up over the hill and i throw the spot and scope up and there he is bedded down looking at me 500 yards away wow now you don't have you have bush nails do you have long range gun at all or anything oh my goodness jason we were hunting with a by mark 7mm 08 with a bush nail 7mm 08

i have one of those for my daughters mainly because they're nice fun little guns to shoot they don't kick but they're nice for a mountain lion yeah they're good to shoot from a friend of ours yeah oh geez yeah those are the days all right so there you are 500 is dan with you by chance at all you know i would have loved if he was with me but if dan is a family man 100 his son is the same age as me and was moving into college that weekend okay so he he couldn't be with us so you found this ram the day before the hunt you found him again that's correct and we're watching him and we're elated couldn't believe it and there he is and you guys wouldn't believe this a damn black bear walks off the top of the hill and walks right into that ram and boogies him down into the timber it was the highest of highs and the lowest of lows the lowest of lows and here's our ram and then

this this hell's canyon country is typically kind of one open side of the canyon and the other side is timbered and you got to remember it's 100 to 110 degrees so those rams timber up like mule deer that time of year and yeah you're in september right first september we are we're in september it's actually like the last days of august yeah so it was awful but shelby was uh you know she just she'd hunted but she didn't kind of have that experience and heck neither did i at the time and um there was a lot of pressure we had a lot of guys in camp everybody of course you guys know when a sheep tag is around everybody wants to be part of that hunt and i remember she was just on the verge of a breakdown just with all the pressure around her to to get a big ram killed and do this and that and dan called shelby that night and they talked on the hill and he talked her talked her off the

cliff so to speak and there were tears and and dan dan for being such a great mentor to myself was just like that with shelby as well and and said shelby it is what it is we're going to do our best and you know and so long story short the next day we went after it and and uh thankfully relocated the ram we didn't get him killed all by himself he was with 13 rams that that morning and that's the only reason we found him did he come out of the timber was he out of the timber he was right on the timber right on the edge of the timber at daylight and they had moved embedded under a juniper you could you would have never seen him unless you watched him walk to that juniper in bed so we made a stalk on him and shelby was just shaking so bad with her rifle i wasn't letting her shoot because i could tell you know we're about 300 yards which is about her max range and uh it's about the

max range of a 7mm 08 it really is i've shot them with my kids adam and i both have them and my kid killed his first buck with it and it's just it is it is but anyway so yeah it it uh it really was and she was the pressure was getting to her and and we just decided that uh she couldn't make the shot and the rams had moved to the other side of the canyon so second day of the hunt um we relocated the ram and now he had broke off and was with only two other sheep and uh we we moved in and it was kind of one of those stocks where you were going to pop up and it was going to be a close shot kind of thing and and that wily old ram kind of tried to backdoor us and move out and next thing we know he's coming up a finger ridge 100 yards from us and shelby laid down on the ground real quick kind of one knee deal and and shot the ram as he spun and looked right at us and we we just couldn't

believe it we were elated we didn't know how big he was or really oddly enough you know dan dan doesn't like to throw numbers out there at all but he just told me cal that's the ram you guys need to kill if you have the opportunity and i shared the photos with some you know fairly experienced sheep hunters or or so they thought and um nobody told me that ram would go 180 inches i couldn't believe it looking at the photos of him not even 180 not even 180 yeah um so we walked up to him and i put my hands around his bases for the first time and i i couldn't couldn't believe him and when we got him back to camp he was 17 inch bases and 42 long so so what did he end up going he was uh 193 and how uh how many rams did you put your hands on prior to this ram that was the first that's what i think hilarious i mean i think it's hilarious it's crazy rookies so to speak in every sense of the word

you know 100 100 but you put in more time i would dare say than nearly anybody on that unit and that's an awesome story for getting your i guess first start so you so to speak in sheep or you want to kill giant stuff or take whatever hunting to another level and 193 inch rocky is world class in any state oh my god you're exactly right and that as i was saying that kind of slingshotted me into the fact uh you know it seems like a local person in eastern oregon draws that tag every year it's pretty popular a unit to apply in um so then it just kind of became you know hey cal would you would you guys mind coming to help us and we just fell in love with sheep and fell in love of sheep hunting um so for a period of you know four or five years there i was just jumping at any opportunity i could to go on any sheep hunts anywhere and i i kind of diversed into mountain

goats as well and and i got it real interested in big elk and big deer and um for a long time there for a period of a few years i was spending my own gas money just to go help these people with tags wherever um if i could be a part of the hunt and if i could be a value you know i was there so not not acting as an outfitter guide necessarily just just because you're loving it yeah you want to taste it yeah it kind of turned into you guys know in the guiding outfitting business there's a lot of outfitters in some of these units at the time and and they were like you know they were concerned that i was doing this illegally and taking money and doing this but i assured to have my t's crossed and i's dotted and you know i didn't take any money ever and it was just i kind of had a plan early on and i knew if i could do this and build my resume and show that i can accomplish this and help these

people do this that if i ever wanted to be a guide or an outfitter um i feel like it would give me a step up and i i kind of project myself into the industry so to speak yeah well you're getting a lot of experience off of you know draw guys and without a lot of the pressure because you're just there helping you know you're exactly right yeah that's uh you know and when you're starting off especially on higher profile species like sheep and goat you experience you can't just say hey i'm a new sheep and goat outfitter book me you you gotta my wife killed a monster she killed a monster but yeah there's i don't want to hit wonder you know you got to get four or five under your belt and they're like hey this guy's always showing up in pictures with people he must know something you're exactly right and it's i that's exactly what i thought early on and there was a lot of people who told me

it was stupid and you know be be careful cow don't get any goat don't get in trouble or anything and i said i'm not worried about getting in any trouble i i'm not doing anything wrong i'm just the guy in the background of all the photos because i'm doing all i can to make these people successful and fulfill my passion for sheep hunting or big elk or big deer mountain goats so yeah so yeah that's so then that let's see that starts in 2012 now you're tell us about your business your partner how a whole all this came about so so incidentally i i kind of started doing that and and my wife would tell me i was crazy when i you know i'd come from one hunt she's telling you to get a job that's what she's telling you they're good at telling us i was out of college now and i was working but i like i said i was

spending my own gas money to go do this buying my you know piece by piece building my toolbox so to speak and buying my first pair of swarovski binoculars or spotting scope or here and there and and really just working my way through it i can't tell you how many nights i'd come home and and shelby would pack me more food and wash my clothes and slap me on the butt and go out the door and i'd say i'll see you in another week you know yeah um yeah you gotta have a good wife to be able to do this industry and we've talked about it several times this industry you know you gotta have a good one if you've got a lucky to have if you got a normal wife you're not gonna make it in this industry i tell you she is she is responsible for so much of my personal success um i can't even i mean probably more so than myself i mean i i could not do what i do without her without a doubt in my

mind yeah texas port we're right there with you we get it so you're you're you know last i don't know a few years tell us how you made the all right i'm gonna be a guide or an outfitter and how you partnered up with who you're partnered up with and what you call sure sure so you know i i was kind of looking for a direction to turn and kind of what i wanted to do and i looked at a couple of these you know oregon has a fairly strange permit system for becoming an outfitter um they like to they like to issue a lot of temporary use permits where you got to basically file for a permit with every hunter in every particular area and it goes through the police department right it's the state police yes and you got to have blm permits forest service permits wilderness permits they definitely don't don't make it an easy deal for an outfitter um and i didn't want to pigeonhole myself

into one particular unit for one particular species there's just a lot of outfitters in the state of oregon that were like that and i had bigger aspirations and dreams than doing that um so i i learned early on that i needed to partner with the right people the right ground and the right individuals that can continue to make me successful and i can help make them successful so um coincidentally i had some great mentors and guys that wanted to partner with me uh dan as well ironically enough yeah um so we decided to do that and move forward and and uh also oregon just doesn't really manage for trophy species um or trophy deer trophy elk or anything like that um it's more of an opportunity managed state um so i kind of came to the realization that these large tracts of privately owned land were the key to growing big deer

or big elk because we could manage that ground ourselves and limit the amount of animals we're taking and take selective animals and you know implement our own predator management systems and then then all of a sudden we're starting to grow these older deer or older elk that's smart because we know oregon state's not going to do it's not like nevada where you know it's the majority is or utah or whatever i mean you do have a lot of private up there in oregon where you can actually do that you're correct and so we uh you know a couple of my partners were able to secure some long-term leases and land purchases and and really starting to monopolize uh the amount of private land to where it was a big enough tract of land that we could manage it and and see see i mean we're already seeing the results of some of the

actions we're taking now and i i think the future looks very very bright um that being said there's nothing wrong with managing for opportunity i mean i think that that makes up the vast majority of hunters yeah especially in oregon but they're just not going to pay you a big money that's the thing you're not going to make money on an opportunity hunter you know well or like yourself you don't want to take your time away from your regular job or your family to just go shoot meat bulls and average bucks you guys are exactly right that's big go back to the over-the-counter spikes isn't gonna it's not gonna cut you're exactly right that's the way i looked at it is i didn't want to miss you know a week's worth of my time to for you know to go hunt a five thousand dollar elk hunt it just wasn't it you know yeah it didn't it didn't benefit myself or my family or i don't think was a

good use of my time take somebody on wanaha walla walla or something all right different story we're having some giant bulls and sometimes you know these the better outfitters they have a drive in them to be for some reason just to to maximize tags to maximize the opportunities in particular units and that's what drives adam and i don't put your hands on the biggest thing that walks oh that that's what that's what drives us that's what we really enjoy um it's not about killing 30 bulls a year on this it's about getting that one particular bull or sheep or goat or whatever it may be and i i but chasing the pursuit guys is what we love you know and i have like i said my mentors and the partners that i've had have just really struck a core with me and really ingrained that into my dna um you know you can look i just don't get as excited looking at 160 inch

deer that's three years old as i do a deer that's you know much older and much bigger kind of thing so how did you get into the big deer how'd you get into big elk i mean where are some of those experiences did you accompany some people in the wanaha or other different opportunities that you have there in oregon sure thing um another mentor of mine he was an outfitter back in the day uh john wick kind of i i knew him early on and uh same kind of thing i think he recognized the drive that i had and the passion and i you know john um whatever people may say about him he is one of the best most passionate elk hunters i've ever seen in my life yeah extremely extremely talented individual um so john much like all these other guys i i was able to take a little piece from john and if i took anything from him it was his drive passion and determination yeah and uh he taught me everything

i knew about finding big bulls and looking for big bulls and the wanaha and mount emily and walla walla this kind of oregon's big three units yeah um and really like that area still is i'm super passionate about it love it if i have a friend that has a tag or or something like that i love to go hunt that country yeah unfortunately much like the permit system i was alluding to they make it extremely hard to guide an outfit in there like there's only one one permitted outfitter that can guide in the wilderness yeah just one you know so well and you get those outfitter tags here and there and it's i don't know i hate to even use the word tags with an s because it's there's so few and far between you're exactly right but we did you know my dad had one of those years back in uh on the wanaha uh archery and that's some thick nasty country and that was like one of the first years gps

even came out and we were you know freaking lost one night oh well and they couldn't find the satellites because we're in this tree forest and anyway but the wanaha was pretty a pretty special place uh especially considering oregon you know but uh but anyway yeah tough to make a living as an outfitter out they have the outfitter tags but um you know across the state sprinkled across the state but there's just hardly any opportunity for for an outfitter like yourself for top end you're exactly right and yeah you know that's your baby if you're if you're going to be an outfitter in the wanaha that is your passion and that's that's the only place you're going to be because you're the only guy for that hunt and you know the outfitter over there he's a great guy great they run a great outfit um they're successful for sure and um it's just it's just not something i was real interested in

doing i didn't want to pigeonhole myself into one place in one species yeah so uh to this day you know all i do is if i have a friend that has a tag or you know or family member or one of my partners or something like that you know we love to go hunt there i had a friend nick that had uh he actually drew the oregon raffle elk tag um a couple years ago and uh and we went in there and hunted real hard i actually just i came out of the frank church in idaho after a 10-day backpack hunt and uh turned and burned and showed up in the wanaha and we'd been looking for one particular bull that between john and myself we had seven sets of sheds off of him wow and uh a real special big typical bull and and we were able to locate him and uh and get him killed he was uh he was a 380 382 typical it's a freaking monster for oregon just yeah that's a monster yeah it's a monster i remember that

monster dark dark antler bull i remember beautiful that that bull was kind of that that bull struck a chord with me as well just after watching an animal alive for so many years and he'd show up on the wintering grounds in the same place like clockwork and shed in the you know relatively the same area year after year and walking up to him on the ground was kind of surreal it was almost sad because i kind of it makes it sound weird yeah but yeah but you just know you'd never watch him again you'd never pick his antlers up again but the bull was 13 years old i mean yeah probably weren't going to watch him very much more anyways so we've experienced that from time to time it's uh bittersweet if you can call it that because there's a lot of time and investment in some of these animals and some years they're down and or you don't have anybody with a tag to even hunt

them and the next year they get away or whatever and yeah it's just one of those things you get so attached to them and look forward to seeing what they're going to be this year and picking up their sheds and it's very cool i i you know going and hunting and killing an animal that you saw for the first time that that's a great thing for a lot of people but for me it takes it to next level when it's an animal you've lived with and watched and learned his habits and learn what he does and and then outsmart that old fox you know so to speak and yeah that's that takes it on another level for me what uh and so how about deer i mean you're good you're into goats sheep deer elk i mean maybe i don't know i mean how did you get how did you get into my other part you know scott co and todd long good have they had this huge mule deer passion we used to joke about all the time i said

i don't know why you guys like those things you know i i just didn't get it until i realized how hard it is to find a big old deer um and i think it was that pursuit that drew me to it and you know we have some of the best deer ground in the state of oregon in my opinion i think it's bar none the best opportunity to produce a big deer and still you know those deer that go 190 plus are so rare so rare to find what unit are you in what what area are we in the lookout mountain unit okay and so you're talking like your private leases within the lookout you think like that's the best opportunity you got genetics you got age i really do we have genetics we have great management you know we're killing a lot of coyotes um and the deer live a non-pressured life we're letting it we kill very very few deer on over 20 000 acres of private ground we kill you know just one or two deer

a year wow very very few and we're real particular about which deer we kill you know this year we already pretty much have it out you know mapped out which deer should be taken because we've been watching him for five years maxed out he's maxed out he's never doing anything different and then we've got some some young up and comers that uh i think i i sent you both a picture we got a great buck that's got five eye guards and a drop tine and a great frame but you know i think we've made the decision that we're going to let that deer go and go another year or two and see what he does we think he's only a four-year-old deer so yeah wow well you're pretty fortunate to be able to unique you know yeah to do that to be able to just harvest one or two deer because you got so many other things going and be able to continue you guys are exactly right and that's why we're able to do it and we have a

big mule deer uh passion so we want to see what that deer's potential could be and you know you know you guys know going four to five on a good year who knows what that deer could blow up and do or or he could get my mountain lion you know yeah it can go either way could pay off for you big or you'd be like man we should have taken him he's dead in the rock somewhere so do you be a guide on any of these others like the the late you know juniper muzzle or any of these you know stains or do you do any of these other units or just pretty much that stick we have hunted them we have hunted them personally for our for our own and really enjoy the units um they the juniper hunt in particular can be tough because it's very migratory um so it can produce a big deer uh but it's still a tough hunt and

and we really like the steens as well i think that area can turn a big deer up anytime um but we really really enjoy it um but as far as guiding down there again very difficult permit system they do offer some outfitter tags to do it um so we'll of course apply for those outfitter tags and if we can pull one um there are several people that would definitely be interested in hunting that hunt with us so yeah well i've hunted we we did one of those outfitter tags on the juniper and uh been in the steens a bit and stuff and that is some crazy rugged that steens is some rugged stuff just a flat road is rugged oh god you better bring three or four spare tires with you it's unbelievable lava rock puncture stuff yeah it's great you could kill a deer in the sagebrush flats or you could kill them above 9 000 feet i mean it's just absolutely crazy terrain yeah yeah it is so

you're you're uh fast forwarding i guess to where we are now 2017 you're you're looking to take some mountain goat hunters yeah mountain goat sheep i mean it's anything you're hunting squirrels you're doing everything big that's right but we really are cheap mountain outfitters that's what you're you're known as right you and your partners correct whatnot yep correct okay correct and uh specializing in what tell us ideally and for people that you know i mean obviously the draw stuff for sheep and goat that's they come along as they come along deer private land stuff and maybe a few key elk and is that is there anything additional to that is that kind of what you guys do that's really what we're focused on we get a lot of attention for sheep and goats of course because um it's kind of your your top tier species uh we do guide roughly 35 ish hunters on private land for

deer and elk archery and rifle so just not that you talked about two on that ranch but you've got other ranches where you hunt more opportunity deer that's correct that are more opportunity based um and then usually we'll uh we'll hunt with one or two statewide deer hunters uh maybe a statewide elk hunter um the only thing we don't really do a whole lot of is antelope how come i'm just jeez we need because i just don't know and you guys got big bucks i've got we do have just giant antelope and i i've got some funny stories about you know glassing up an antelope and calling a friend that had a tag and he goes how big you think is cal i said gosh i don't know he's a two point how long do you think it's hornets i said well 16 or 17 maybe well are you kidding me they're similar they're similar that way to sheep that's why

nobody wanted to call your ram over 180 it's you're scared to because they're hard to do much and yeah even more so that way it's extremely tough to judge i just yeah and i'm not afraid to admit i just don't know anything about them and so the hunter came over and killed this goat and it was just spectacular he looked in the scope at him for you know three seconds and said oh my goodness are you kidding me and they they shoot this antelope it's 86 inches you know and i there you go you can be an antelope guide it's that easy that's it you're you're on the board now yeah i got one that's the equivalent of a 193 initial bighorn ram you know the 86 inch antelope first one yeah how many antelope have you touched one how big was it 86 inches and that's just how it goes i got a friend that's got an antelope tag and i saw a couple bucks last

last weekend antelope bucks while i was out watching sheep and and he goes how big you think they are i say gosh i don't know they're bucks i don't know they're yeah exactly you're gonna have to drive up alongside them have them chase your truck so you get a closer look yeah yeah so i guess if i'm if i'm fast forwarding to this year we uh you know we usually the last few years we hunt uh you know seven to ten sheep hunters a year state of oregon in various tell us yeah rattle off some what are these you either prefer or are willing to do or can do right adam's hunted baby's butte i hunted john day i mean can you get permits in any unit you want to get them in that is yeah with sheep uh the permit system is actually easier ironically enough um so we just file with the state of oregon um for a

particular hunter in a particular unit and then uh and then we're good to go uh there's really no permit issues with sheep so it's just a matter of you know if it fits into our time schedule if it's a hunter we want to hunt with and if we can make it happen we're definitely going to make it happen and deliver a great product to the hunter what units on the sheep do you so those you guys specialize in yeah we really like uh lookout is a was our kind of home unit uh we really we like snake river and now snake river and the chest namus unit are kind of combined as one for sheep uh really like that we do a lot of john day hunts as well so both sides it was adam you had a john day tag right jason oh it's jason i had a west john day you do both sides there east and west we we prefer the of the east side we have some land lease there on the east side um last year we killed 178 inch and 100 and

another mid-170s ram in there that's awesome so some absolute brutal california big horns yeah they're california rams um the potamus unit which is uh just kind of upper john day off the north fork of the john day river um we've killed 180 inch ram in there as well california big horn so that's a little that's a sneaker unit unfortunately residents can't apply for that one but um phenomenal uh so any other is that the bulk of them there those that is the bulk of them and then uh we'll of course address if a hunter has a has a tag somewhere else you've got time or something between the team yeah we've been in almost every unit that has sheep in the state you know so if we can if we can make it happen we definitely will yeah it'll just keep adding to your portfolio and it's not like you haven't proven yourself and with a little bit of time i mean you'd be able to

figure out any unit i'm pretty certain so yeah if we we just got it you know how it is guys just got to commit the time and and be honest with the hunter and and do him right by what he's paying you and and make it happen so i know you're taking some like mountain goat this year a little bit and of course we've texted back and forth some pictures you know you and i and adam and whatnot but what tell us how you got into that i mean not there's hardly any goat sheep and goat where you're talking kind of overlap the same country yeah yep um so yeah we spend a lot of time in the the sheep and goats spend a lot of time in the same country and just started hunting some goats with some different hunters and boy mountain goats are tough they still fool me all the time and like we're talking you know texting pictures back and forth they can be so tough and um oregon just started implementing an

auction goat tag um which has been great i think it's it raises some really good money for for the state i can't believe how much money it goes for sometimes but how much around 35 40 000 wow yeah for a spike yeah yeah a small yeah you know we're talking a nine inch nine and three quarters spike maybe well maybe 10 yeah that's awesome that's oregon does grow you got some big outstanding you do so yeah 50 52 inch type stuff yep yeah we can definitely do that in and the crazy thing is almost any goat unit in the state yeah so yeah okay um so we like hell's canyon a lot we like uh the elk horns grow great mountain goats heck strawberries grow great mountain goats it's uh the only unit i feel like it's be tougher to to kill a big mountain goat is some of those eagle cap wilderness hunts i think the goats just have a harder winter yeah there so it's harder to get to

that age but that being said a guy killed a 50 plus goat in there last year i mean it happens what is your i mean of all these species are all these hunts which ones of each year um do you really get most excited about is it the sheep i'd have to say it's sheep for myself um you know uh but that's the beautiful thing about having partners in this business is we all kind of have our individual passion if you will and uh big sheep just turn my crank just like nothing else uh so i definitely would have to say sheep but then you know there's others that you know other buddies of mine that deer is what you know that's their thing so i can understand that one yeah for sure big deer nothing wrong with that either you bet what uh well uh so on when you're calling them partners i mean they're probably true partners in the business are they sub guides that guide for you that's exactly it yeah

we have uh we have true business partners that are part of the business um and then we have guides and then of course we have a long list of guys that just want to be involved with what we're doing whether that be guiding or they're out scouting for us they just want to be a part of what we're doing and they know our there hasn't really been an outfitter that's really dominated the state i don't know if dominates the right word but has taken over the state as far as going statewide and not focused in one little niche yeah um so they they see the vision and passion we have and i think just like anything else natural human nature they want to be a part of that too and we love to have them it's the right guy in the right fit yeah we're all about it well and that's what i wanted to kind of get into with you a little bit on this podcast a little bit and adam and i've talked quite a bit

but um and we're trying to keep track of who's doing what and it's it's all interesting to us the animals are interesting but also the people like yourself that are passionate about it and we want to be affiliated with those people here at epic but um anyway you relatively new bringing a huge awareness to a state like oregon i would lump it in similar to california or similar to you know washington or some of these states that are maybe lesser known than than other western states so you're bringing this awareness and almost feels like an untapped market up there in oregon for as far as an outfitter perspective you not a lot i mean you you talk about some other outfitters but like you said they like to stick in certain units or maybe they're a blacktail outfitter roosevelt elk or both or or whatever but you're uh you're kind of changing the game a little i want to say and

and to you know it's uh you know props to you for doing that and it's just it's quite fun to watch you guys grow and and of course you're in on all these you know some of these statewide tags and so people are trusting that you'll find some big animals and putting a lot of faith and money and whatnot into the projects and so anyway it's it's quite interesting intriguing and pretty awesome to see you know oregon get some of the recognition you know from guys like you that are helping well thanks jay we really appreciate that i think behalf of all of us yeah we really think that you think that you recognize that and and we're trying to do the right thing uh it's tough the permit system is real tough in this state so you got to make sure everything is above board all the time and and you're doing the right thing and you're with the right people um so it takes a lot of work as you guys know

as outfitters yourself um but we've got like i said these guys these older guys have just given me such great mentorship along the way and have humbled me repeatedly and said you know just continually keep your head down and keep doing this and doors will continue to open for you as long as you continue down this path and and that's really what we're trying to do you know we want we you know we pass on if it's a hunt that we can't do you know we have if it's a reputable outfitter that we have a great relationship with we you know have no problem at all passing that hunter on to that outfitter just making sure everybody gets taken care of especially if they're you know epic clients and and stuff like that so we really appreciate what you guys are doing for us as well yeah it's been a big help you guys have been responsible for um some great hunters that have come and booked with us this

year and i think we're we're set to have an absolute banner year coming up this year well we're we're glad to do it like i said it you know jace and i picked up you can kind of get a feeling i mean even if you don't know somebody in our case you know this last you know roughly years when we've gotten to know you more or less um connected with you reached out to you things like that wanted you as a outfitter source for our clients um that we felt we could trust obviously that we can then have long-term relationship and trust with our clients they book with you there or have a great hunt with you there they're going to trust us with uh their new mexico elk tag or their montana sheep tag or whatever they draw down the road and that's that's what it's about is long-term partnerships that that make everybody um better at what they do and and make everybody you know

stay relevant and stay cutting edge and new and all that and i think that is kind of the i don't know fresh perspective that maybe what we're seeing that you guys are offering in there because it is it is a tough state you know we're we're not as privy to the ins and outs of the outfitter permitting system that you've kind of alluded to but we're very familiar with the regular state permit process there it's uh frankly you know like you've talked about it's been a little frustrating it's it's tough especially from a non-resident perspective it's very frustrating not one it's not a no-brainer for people to apply up there the only really saving grace for like sheep and goat in in our opinions is they don't have a point system so at least you've got as good a chance as anybody and and jason and i i guess are living proof that non-residents can draw it we shouldn't

you guys have both beat the odds yeah we did and so you can and but obviously was the you know 160 dollar license and eight dollars per speech you could spend a couple hundred bucks a year in oregon and maybe not get anything ever out of it exactly right that's that's real tough to justify for a non-resident and i totally understand that but at the same time um you know somebody's going to get them and it's nice to have somebody like you and and your your guys for when that happens because you know most people in oregon that are looking to burn points on their elk deer if they've been doing it for a long time they want they want what you can probably help them with and that's a big elk or a big deer or obviously sheep or goat so nicely we got you know somebody like yourself to to send them to because uh you know we all maybe wish oregon is a little bit different but the west is what it is

and each state you know has a certain system it is what it is and so you got to adapt and do it like i said you got some of these raffle tag programs private land um some of these auction tags that you're all able to keep and do you know what you want to do and you're you got to be flexible and adapt to that because yeah otherwise you can't really make a a real living up there doing it you know in one set unit like i said yeah exactly right and and you know i realize we are kind of the young guys on the block so to speak especially myself and a lot of the outfitting businesses in the state of oregon have been established for a long time and i don't i don't i don't mean to speak demeaningly of them if i call them mom and pops outfitters businesses but that's kind of how they've been they've been family-run businesses for decades and they may not be kind of tapped into the way uh

epic has so many has so much clientele and and what your business has to offer so if anything if it's a hunter we we can't guide or we can't fit them in we're very tapped into the market in oregon and know who the best guy to give them to is kind of thing what do you uh so what do you what is your you know advice for non-residents should they be applying should they just go on private land with you should they you know just wait until they want to go and then try to book a hunt and figure it out should be the gain in points i mean say i want 190 inch deer or 185 or 80 inch plus deer and a you know 330 340 plus bull i mean would you be applying would you be buying uh what's your advice to non-residents there in oregon i have i have a hard time discouraging a non-resident from applying just because there are tags given away at random in the state of oregon as far as applying

so you always have a chance especially for sheep and mountain goats there's some fantastic we grow some of the biggest bighorn sheep and and mountain goats in the state and up until recent years it really hasn't been common knowledge if you will um but we're producing some fantastic sheep and goats so if you're looking for an upper level deer or an upper level elk though um elk in particular some of these wilderness units in oregon are are the are the way to be in my opinion if you want to get a bigger older mature bull um but the private land opportunities um from some of the bigger private land managing outfitting businesses or companies uh is probably the way to go because you know yeah for deer and elk i agree they just uh that's where you can grow older deer and you can grow older elk and uh with the right feed and the right management that's what's going to grow them to the trophy

level so you generally get um those would be units i'm assuming some of them that you have a little bit higher permit numbers because the amount of private land the state wants to appease landowners opportunity you know either to hunt or lease ground or whatever or the opportunity to have a few more the outfitter tags out there so if you don't have the points to draw maybe it doesn't take 18 or 20 um to draw those type of units but if you can't draw them then you also maybe have another alternative picking up an outfitter tag if you do it early enough that's correct yes uh you know the outfitter draw the outfitters in oregon will come out early and what you can do is always check with us or any of the other oregon outfitters and see what outfitter tags they drew or what they have available

and then uh if you're ready to hunt here and now uh the landowner tags are really what you got to look at and uh you know we're allotted a certain amount of outfitter or lop tags based off of acreage as well as the game management plan and that particular gmu so every year it varies a little bit they cut tags back on us pretty bad because of the winter this year um but that's no problem you know if anything we'd like to see these tag numbers stay where they're at right now forever yeah um to grow some older deer and and things like that oregon doesn't like old deer you know that they don't they the average deer like dead deer one and a half years old and killed from a road so well uh how big do you guys want to get you're talking 35 deer and elk and x amount of you know seven to ten sheep and all of this uh like well how big i mean partners is that about what i need money and partners you

know like are you looking to grow are you looking to stay the same just kill bigger stuff get a better reputation what's your goals you know guys we've we've had that discussion a lot lately and we have such a great deal going where we're at um but i really think with the particular people we have in place now the sky is the limit um so i think a couple of our future moves are going to be continue to increase uh you know sheep and mountain goats and then we're going to pick up some bigger tracks of private land as well uh throughout the state the only problem with that is having the right guy in place to continue to make that happen so in order to manage more land and manage more hunting at the quality level we want to uh we'll definitely be bringing in some more partners um in the business

with us uh because we want to continue to grow and and turn into even bigger deals so yeah well it's natural every business wants to grow and but what we've found over the years and there's a sweet spot you know and you end up where i totally agree yeah diminishing return where you know x amount of more clients requires x amount of more and more and more and maybe you give up a piece of your reputation because you don't have your hands in a little bit of everything yeah and that's the last last thing we want because if there's a bad experience it falls on all of our shoulders right it does yeah we accept that and you'll feel another calvin or a todd or a scott or a dan or and they don't make them they don't make guys like you every day they just don't they're tough to find you know you'll feel the sweet spot more or less i mean you're obviously sounds like you're fairly

new as a as a crew of you guys you've got a lot of experience but as far as being together you're new but you'll feel it you guys aren't going to want to be the kind of guys you know and what i know about at least dan and you that that is quality the over quantity that's never going to change and so you'll you'll feel that and when something starts to give or feel like it you'll naturally back off slightly and settle into the groove wherever that sweet spot is that'll it'll agree and that's that's what those mentors were for for me to to check me and and humble me and tell me you know this is where we think we should be to maintain the quality of experience and the quality of animals that we currently have so well i just uh i just personally want you guys to stay in oregon because uh i don't want to have you guys down here killing all our deer and stuff because with your personality

and your aggressiveness you could put the hurt on some things so anyway uh just stay in oregon we'll probably be sticking oregon for quite a while that's where we're we're pretty rooted over here all right good what about what about this year 2017 what's on tap for some are your bigger hunts you got either personally or seems like something's going on tomorrow or next day next day i mean you got some things coming down the pipe right here yeah yeah we have a statewide sheep hunter starting on august 1st brock you guys both know brock yeah really really excited to hunt with brock he's coming down with his bow um we got some fantastic rams for him um really going to try to push to break the oregon archery state record on bighorn um and i think i think we've got a couple rams that'll do it um so we're really really looking forward to that uh and then uh we've got a number of sheep

punts come we have a real fun one this year we have a 12 year old kid who drew a lookout sheep tag coming home with us so geez yeah he is a resident local kid we know his family real well and and they drew the sheep tag and and we reached out to them and said we'd love to take him hunting so wow good for you we're gonna take him and i just think if this kid has a great experience he's gonna be a hunter for the rest of his life and maybe he'll be a sheep guide for sheep mountain outfirs one day you never know there you go i just know the kind of passion that something like that and a good experience can spark so oh yeah we're gonna have him and his dad and his family and and kill a ram we're really really looking forward to that we got a great ram picked out for him that's great nine and a half ten and a half year old ram um and when we can kind of decide which rams in the

unit get killed um it really is it's showing that it can help with our management a ton and we can grow the right rams and and kill the right rams at the right age kind of thing so we we love that opportunity well that's what's you're again a unique spot up there because you're not uh competing against you know 14 other outfitters and trying to you know and then you can't you can almost almost have your private management strategy on a public land type draw tags you know what i mean that's exactly that's exactly our intent that's what we're trying to do it's pretty crazy it's pretty fun it's a strange dynamic it really is but that's what we're striving to do and i tell you guys we're seeing the results of it it's it's doing well um it's doing real well and after the sheep we've got some goats uh coming up i think we're going to kill a real big goat um this year as well and we're

really excited about that and some more sheep hunts on the john day down there in the rut we really enjoy those hunts all the time um we're looking forward to that and then some great archery elk hunting on some of our private ground and then rifle elk hunting and we may kill a deer or two we've got a statewide deer hunter hunting with us as well and looking forward to that so that's awesome good what about anything personal for you you guys probably no time for yeah it doesn't sound like it but you're gonna have to quit her job again or whatever yeah it's it's real tough i think we've committed to opening two days of archery season shelby's gonna try and kill a bull with her bow i got to watch her kill her first archery elk last year a nice six point bull and and i i was so elated to watch her

kill a bull it was just the most fun thing in the world for me um she even alluded to just killing something with your bow is so different she says oh it is you're just so much closer to the action you hear your heartbeat on uh archery hunts every day even though you maybe don't fire a shot and then if you take those rifle tactics where you're picking out specific animals and then do it with a bow oh that's next level stuff yeah it's just retarded love it so that's the rush just awesome i'm gonna i'm gonna archery hunt deer myself i've got a deer picked out like a in one of those older deer we spoke about that hasn't really turned into what we'd hope he'd turn into but he's real old maybe a genetic inferior just a little bit yep kind of deer that kind of peeking out at 180 inches real heavy buck just a great great deer but never going to be the next level kind of deer and uh we've all

agreed that that's the deer we should kill so i'm gonna try and get him killed and and then i do have a controlled rifle elk tag in oregon that i've waited eight years to get so awesome um looking real forward to that um i haven't killed an elk with a rifle in a long long time so so that's gonna be fantastic well that's awesome well is there any uh any specific stories from this last year anything crazy that really you know besides obviously we talked about your wife's ram and and you've sent us some crazy deer pictures and we actually you know you guys posted a picture the other day and it's one we know about but a dead deer that's a giant that's surprising come from oregon i mean is there any of those that just stand out that you'd like to share with the listeners yeah you know we killed

one deer last year jason that was uh he was a 200 204 inch deer um and it was the craziest deer i've ever seen like i said i you know i don't have any problem admitting that i don't have nearly the experience of some of my partners and mentors on big deer but uh when we saw this deer for the first time he had nine points on one and seven on the other um crazy deer but he had an 18 inch inside spread kind of deer yeah um we we called him the ugliest 200 inch deer we've ever seen in our lives jason and i were looking at choke and picks on one of those yesterday yeah he's 200 but like i think you could get him to 200 i'm like oh he's 200 but he's the grossest yeah he's exactly like and he's yeah maybe 18 inside that's exactly what this deer was to me and and but i was just mesmerized by him i couldn't believe

how cool he was and but when we looked at him he looked really young to me um he just looked super young in a summer coat in velvet and he wasn't overly heavy and and we watched the deer all archery season and just he was one of those deer we said let's give that deer a couple years and see what he turns into he might turn into a giant kind of deer and um i went up there and one of my partners todd his wife had the rifle tag in the unit and uh it was the day before rifle season and i went up to where he'd been living during archery season and we had decided if i turn the deer up let's kill him if i don't see him it's meant to be and we're not going to kill him and uh i sat there and glassed all evening didn't turn him up and right before dark of course i find him um and lo and behold i took a bunch of photos of him and when that deer went hard horn his cape changed over from red to gray

he looked like he aged 10 years on me i couldn't believe how much older he was face changes their body it's just a weird it was weird change and you know i i took some photos and i sent them to some my experienced partners and buddies and said what do you guys think this deer looks a lot older now and uh we had made the the group decision as in you know every decision we make is as a group and said let's kill that deer in the morning so his wife come up early in the morning and and we get set up on this deer and he was uh bedded up in the rim rock and he was seven 720 yards and and uh we killed him right there and i walked up to the deer and the first thing i did was open his mouth up he had one tooth in his head oh my gosh couldn't believe it um absolutely crazy he had him had him age just

because we were so curious he's nine and a half years old wow perfect i don't know how we messed that up but um well it's tough i've got trail camera pics of them you know like you're saying in velvet and then i'll get a trail camera pic of them hard horned end of october when they're getting ready to rut and it is amazing the difference that they look he just had this mousy nose i don't know he just didn't grow that big block head you know and it fooled us it really did it in the in the velvet and then when he went hard horn he changed his look so much i learned a lot from that experience learned a lot and uh and we got that deer and uh really happy so you know we killed the right deer and he was as big as he was ever going to get real cool non-typical buck with a bunch of in lines and yeah and uh so that really stood out last year as a fun time and a great learning deer too 200

inch deer out of oregon they don't happen every day no they don't just because of management but it's not because of genetics oregon's got some incredible genetics i agree i think we've got we've got some great where our private land is a lot of non-typical you know split kickers and kickers and in lines and uh you know even drop tines and and stuff like that we can do it we can definitely do it in a few more years of managing this ground like we are and um i gosh i just think the future is real bright a few more years and adam and i'll be bringing up you guys will be coming to hunt with us yeah we'll be putting on an epic hunt up there so yeah we'd love to have you that'd be a fun time we've talked about having you guys up it'd be a fun it would be awesome well i'm i'm jealous i don't mean to switch topics again but you're you're killing stuff in about five days and we're down here

waiting for hunts to start and so we're looking forward to we got archery deer august 10th is the earliest we're going but you're getting after it here so yeah we wish you luck on that hunt and everything else you got going and is there anything else you you want to share with us about your outfit and we just really like to thank you guys for the opportunity and what you guys helped us grow tremendously um you know i speak on behalf of everybody and and uh we've got some fantastic clients made some great connections because of you guys and and your willingness and to entrust us with your clients so we just like to say thank you again and we can't wait to share with you you know the successes and the failures and the you know everything we got going on so we'll stay in close touch let's just have you on again at the end of the season and you can tell us about

what what got away and what and then what what died i'll tell you all the young guy dumb moves i make and uh how these guys will square me away and and help make me successful well that's what's going to make you successful is is how you know uh i mean i don't know if humble is the right word but at least you're willing to you know you you're you're confident there's no question you're confident but you're also willing to uh you know listen and understand that you're you're growing in the sport and whatnot and i expect you'll be in this for 20 30 years and knocking down some absolute or continuing to knock down some absolute monsters and we're uh happy to be a part of that with you so we wish you the best i i sure hope so i think the future is bright for everybody and for all of us so i'm really looking forward to it okay calvin appreciate your time and uh yeah we'll look forward to

hope for some picks within five or six days all right guys we're headed up on the hill again so uh we will keep you in in the loop just don't just don't shoot the wrong ramp just oh don't even say that hey it happens a bad parting shot right there that is a bad mojo oh it's hard they get grouped up yeah just ignore that that was jason that was that had nothing to do with that he stands out pretty well i don't think we're going to kill the wrong one no you're going to do you're going to do well and we wish you guys luck brock yeah if there's anybody that can get it done with the bow up there it'll be him so wish you guys the best on that so okay buddy thank you guys again appreciate everything get back out there you bet take care all right talk to you later if you draw a tag and you know you're going to need an outfitter for your hunt give us a call we work with

hundreds of outfitters across western north america we don't just simply work with any outfitter that that calls us that has a hunt to book or things like that we realize our names our reputation and your ultimately your hunting tag is what's most important we do the research we help you find the guys that we know will produce in the unit you've drawn a great tag in so give us a call trust our experience trust our expertise to help steer you in the right direction of guys or gals that you should consider hiring for the tag that you've drawn if you don't draw enough tags or you just simply want to use booking a hunt with an outfitter with a guaranteed tag whether it be a landowner tag outfitter tag as a way as a way to supplement your hunting schedule give us a call on those as well we we help represent hunts all over the western canadian provinces alaska all the western states as well

so if you're looking for doll sheep stone sheep brown bear black bear deer elk antelope moose sheep goat everything in between we can help you uh start off with a brief visit about what you're looking for price point species type of hunt horseback backpack all the different variables that go into that glad to help you out we've got jeff john jason carter myself adam bronson all willing to help visit with you about that to help you fill up your hunting schedule with the type of hunts you got that you're looking for maybe that you can't just draw