In this episode of The Epic Outdoors Podcast our hosts talk with an Oregon outfitter Calvin Halladay. Calvin has been a part of many of the largest sheep to be taken in Oregon in recent years. Calvin has a unique story of his start in the hunting industry. From hunting with minimal gear on a college student budget to becoming one of the top outfitters in the state of Oregon. Calvin attributes his success to a lot of hard work and tenacity and especially great mentors. Enjoy another great episode with Calvin Halladay.

Disclaimer: this podcast has been transcribed from the original audio and likely contains errors. This transcription does not reflect the views and opinions of Epic Outdoors LLC. Please consult the original audio with any concerns.

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We were broke. College kids,

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Adams hunted Beatty’s Butte. I hunted John Day. I mean,

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We climb up two and 3000 vertical feet in all these different canyons.

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Anything to do with Western big games.

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To the Epic Outdoors Podcast, powered by Under Armour.

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Hey everybody. Jason Carter, NATA Bronson here on the Epic Outdoors Podcast, knocking out another one. This one’s pretty awesome. This is a guy up and coming outfit and business with Cal Halladay that’s representing the business. Sheep Mountain Outfitters. Super excited to have him on here. He is kind of been changing the game a little bit in Oregon, bringing some, you know, excite new

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Energy. Excitement. Yeah.

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New energy, excitement to, to a state that hasn’t been that exciting in the recent history here, but he’s definitely knocking down some great animals. Adam and I have hunted it. We actually are somewhat fond of Oregon, both taking a sheep up there. And so anyway, it’s gonna be a fun podcast. Before we get into that, we want to thank Under Armour for sponsoring these podcasts and supporting us here at Epic Outdoor Super partner of ours and just appreciate them and, and all that they’re doing for us as well as the hunting industry. So, with that said, let’s get him on the line. What’s going on, man?

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Oh, you know, just, just wrapping up some last minute loose ends and then headed back out.

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Oh, right on.

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You’re not on vacation or something. There’s nothing to do late July. Yeah. Adam,

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Adam and I were talking, figuring you’re just out screwing off. There’s

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Nothing to do in late July in Oregon is guys,

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Remember I’m a young guy. I still gotta work for a living.

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Well, we know what’s going on. We know you’re pulling your hair out and babysitting. It’s

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Getting to that stressful time right now.

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Babysitting, yeah.

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Babysitting ramps that like to walk or what?

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Oh God, you’re killing me.

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Yeah, you lose years off your life when you’re, you know, gosh, going through these five or six days.

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I, I found the first gray hair in my beard the other day and I just turned 27 last week. It’s not a good thing. 27,

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I don’t even remember. 27. You remember 27 Bronson

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Long ago. I, I tell people that and they say, no way. You are 27. I’m like, yeah, I’m a nineties kid.

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Nineties, huh?

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Is 27. Are you part of the millennials? What’s the definition of millennials? No, I

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Could be born in 2000.

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Oh, okay. Right.

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Don’t, I was in grade school then, so definitely not.

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All right. Well, cool. Well, well let’s dive into this thing. Tell us a little bit about, you know, how you got started, what you did as a kid, and then, you know, what kind of drove you to, you know, work in the honey industry? Yeah,

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Sure. I think I started out like a lot of people. My dad was a big influence early on as far as hunting goes. And I got into it and it, I, I tell you, it didn’t take long for me to realize that I was kind of, my passion for hunting was a little bit different than say my father or his, his hunting buddies. You know, I remember going to, to rifle elk camp and it was more of a, a vacation away from mom and, and all the wives and more of a

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Social event.

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Now the wives want to go and now the wives want to go, and nowadays we’re supposed to take them and we’re jerks. Yeah.

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Yeah. So, I mean, at an early, early age, I realized, you know, I, I had early on success and it’s just because I spent more time in the woods. I didn’t understand why we should go back to camp at 10:00 AM and have breakfast than go back out at four. You know? Yeah. And also, I stayed out all the time and, and pretty early on, I, I just started killing more elk and more deer. And, and everybody’s going, gosh, this kid is so lucky. This kid is so lucky. He does this and that. But early on, I just realized that the harder you worked at it, the more successful you were, you were. And so I just stuck with that. And as I got into college outta high school, I kind of switched over to archery hunting because the season worked better with, with school. So I could hunt almost an entire month. I mean, I, I went to Eastern Oregon University just so I could hunt. I mean, that’s literally the only reason I chose to go to that school.

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Are you from your younger years? You are from Oregon anyway,

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Though? I am, yep. I’m Oregon, born and raised, but I, I grew up on the west side of the state and moved to the east side of the state about 10 years ago, just for school. Met my wife there. She’s born and raised in La Grande. So we’ve lived there ever since. And I, I don’t have any intentions or plans on moving. I really love it there. Yeah.

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So when you, you know, so when you’re talking about like your childhood and success and hunting camps and all that, you’re talking about general season over the counter type hunts there in Oregon, like that’s what you guys did. You’re

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Correct. Yeah. And that, that’s really the basis of a lot of this organ hunting, especially with a rifle. I remember it was spike only rifle elk season, and that is, that is all I knew. Wow. Yeah. So that, that’s how I got my start.

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Yeah. Early, well, to early be successful, to be successful and, and over the counter, you know, type hunts. That’s, I mean, that tells you a lot right there. And to do it on a regular basis, you gotta grind it out. Yeah. You gotta grind it out.

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You definitely do. You gotta outwork the next guy. And, you know, highly pressured units, highly pressured elk, lots of people, not a lot of roadless areas in the particular units we were hunting. So you just had to, you had to grind it out above the rest of the people. But yeah, that’s, that’s pretty much how I got my start. And then I met my wife early on in college, and I, I think the real stepping off point was my wife drew a sheep tag in 2012 in Oregon, and that kind of started me down a rabbit hole that now looking back five, six years later, I could have never anticipated that I’d be in the position I’m today. Yeah.

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So, about that. Yeah. Talk about that a little more. I mean, we can all, you know, remember the picture, it’s just a freaking awesome ram and, and you know, a gal that did it and whatnot. And so it’s just one of those things that, anyway, but tell us a little bit about that. Like, you just decided you wanted start guiding them, you wanted more of those experiences. What, I mean, how did that, how did it actually change your direction?

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It, I, I really, it boils down to mentorship. And I, I really think that is what has sling shotted me into the position I am at such a young age. I’ve had some of the best mentors, a young hunter, a young guide, young outfitter could ever hope for. So in 2012, we’re just college kids. And she draws a, a big horn sheep tag in Oregon and Hells Canyon, arguably probably the top unit in Oregon. And I, we didn’t know crap guys. We were, we were broke college kids killing

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Spike elk. Oh, good

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I, I was working nights at a grocery store, putting myself through school, and my wife was working at a local convenience store, gas station down the street, and we were just making ends meet, going through college. And here we had this opportunity long in a lifetime fall in our laps. Yeah. And so we, I, I remember we drove down there, I made her quit her job because her boss wouldn’t give her time off.

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That’s hilarious.

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I did, I

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Said, said, you should do for big animals.

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I said, we will eat SpaghettiOs and, and bread. I mean, I don’t care. We’re gonna make this happen

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And we’re gonna get meat a hundred pounds of sheep meat at the end of it. We’ll be all sheep

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Meat only, and we’re, and we’re gonna rely on that. So I remember we, we’d skip school and, and summer on Thursdays and Fridays, and we basically, we’d go four days on down in Hills Canyon and come back for three days and it’s just enough to pass our classes and, and pay the rent. That was about it. And we got down there and we didn’t have optics. We didn’t have four wheelers. We didn’t have any of the stuff we needed. But early on, I, Adam, I think, you know Dan Blankenship real

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Well. Yeah. Know. Well,

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I had heard this name from people, and it said, you gotta talk to Dan. Talk to Dan, talk to Dan. So I incidentally ran into Dan Blankenship, a guy, and it is probably a relationship that changed my life because we walk into his driveway and he comes out and goes, you must be Shelby. Right off the bat, he knew who we were.

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He knew the draw list or something.

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He knew the draw. And Dan is really well known at that time. You know, he really wasn’t guiding or anything. He was just helping out who he felt like helping out and then not helping people. He didn’t feel like helping. So, yeah.

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And he lives in the unit. He’s got a place right on the unit. So he’s, these sheep are in, in his backyard. He does, yeah.

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He does. Most, most incredible hunter I’ve ever been around in my life. Extremely talented man, and, and just a great person and, and mentor. I couldn’t have hoped for a better opportunity. But, you know, Dan didn’t hand anything over to us. He really, he made it earth. He actually, in fact, never went out and looking with us a single time. Never showed us a ram, never nothing. But he taught me everything I know about scoring sheep and finding sheep. And we’d look at maps and review maps. We’d roll into his cabin, just dusty and tired and, and defeated. And I’d, I’d bring him photos that I had taken. I’d say, what, what about this Ram Dan? What do you think about this ram? And it was about seven or eight weeks into the scouting, and I finally turned up a really, really impressive big ram. And, and my wife Shelby goes girlfriend at the time, you know, she goes, that’s the ram I wanna shoot right there. And I knew he was big, but I didn’t know what I was looking at. And I remember sliding the, the picture across the table to Dan and Dan just kind of smirked at us and said, you found him. You better kill

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It. You better kill that. You found him. I mean, so he had him named but wasn’t saying anything, just gonna let you try to find him.

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That’s correct. And he, he just made me earn it from everywhere. He didn’t throw me off. He didn’t give me tip. He just said, you know, Cal, go out and look. And, and we just humped it. We’d leave, we’d leave camp at, if you’ve ever been in that country, we’d leave camp at three or four in the morning, and we’d climb up two and 3000 vertical feet into all these different canyons and see what we could find. So we turned the ram up. But that was just the beginning of the story, because we had a tag in the unit, and there was one other hunter, but before that, the auction tag and the raffle hunter got to hunt. And Dan knew the ra, the auction hunter at that time. And he came into the unit with a, I mean, a truckload of, of guides from Utah and different states around. And, Hey,

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Don’t be bashing Utah guys. It wasn’t

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Me, me, it wasn’t me. I wasn’t in particular, there was some Utah guides

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That came in. And so they hunted the unit real hard and we just, you know, we were looking at our number two and three ram thinking, there’s no way this ram is gonna survive and

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This story’s gonna get good.

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Lo and behold, they didn’t turn the ram up and he was living in the, in the oddest of spots. And that’s why they didn’t find him.

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So did, was Dan, was Dan helping them at all, or just kind of like with you just friends with everybody.

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He was, Dan was very good about being mutual friends with everybody.

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And so Dan didn’t, didn’t compromise your ram, obviously he didn’t. That’s

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That’s correct. He just said, you know, you guys gotta be realistic with the possibility, more likely than not that Ram’s gonna get killed. Yeah. You know, there was guys here we were with Bushnell binoculars, you know, and there’s guys out there with Swarovski spot scopes on every ridge and geez. And looking, and we just didn’t think there’d be a chance he survived, but I, you know, like those big old sheep do, he found a little pocket that he wasn’t getting messed with, and he lived there the whole season and they didn’t turn ’em up, thankfully. Wow. So the auction hunter killed a beautiful ram, really nice ram, mid upper one eighties. And then the raffle hunter killed a nice ram as well. And before you know it, we were turned over ready to go. And they killed

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Both of them in your unit or her,

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Her unit. That’s, that’s correct. And lately in Oregon,

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Were these other, I don’t mean to cut you off, but were these other Rams, the other two rams that they killed the auction, the raffle? I mean, were they rams you had seen also?

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They were, yes. The one that the, the auction hunter killed was our number three ram.

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So we were definitely looking, he was in a pretty easy spot to find. And he was found, he was real long in one side broom back on the other beautiful ram. I, I think he was 86, if I remember correctly. Wow. And the hunter, he was from California. He killed the ram and, and was ecstatic. But before you know it, here we are, turn a of kids, it’s, yeah. And now it’s our turn, you know, and the ram had boogied and moved like the big ones do right before the season started. And we went over a week early before the hunt started, and I couldn’t believe it. It was like a, it was a total god moment for us climbing the hill in the last evening before the last time. Hadn’t seen the ram in two weeks and

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Come up over the hill. And I throw the spot and scope up and there he is, betted down looking at me 500 yards away.

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Wow. Now you don’t ha you have bush nails. Do you have long range gun at all, or any peak?

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Oh my goodness, Jason, we were hunting with a bi mark, seven M oh eight with a Bushnell scope

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Seven M oh eight bet.

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I have one of those for my daughters, mainly because they’re nice, fun little guns to shoot. They don’t kick, but they’re nice

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For a mountain lion. Yeah.

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They’re good to shoot, shoot about a hundred a rifle from a friend of ours. Yeah. Oh, geez. Yeah. Those were the

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Days. All right, so there you are, 500. Is Dan with you by chance at all?

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You know, I would’ve loved if he was with me, but if Dan is a family man, a hundred percent. His son is the same age as me and was moving into college that weekend. Okay. So he, he couldn’t be with us,

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Unfortunately. So you found this ram the day before the hunt, you found him again, is that,

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That was, that’s correct. And we’re watching him and we’re elated. Couldn’t believe it. And there he is. And you guys wouldn’t believe this. A damn black bear walks off the top of the hill and walks right into that ram and buggies him down into the timber. Yeah. It was the highest of highs and the lowest of lows. Five minutes later, the lowest of lows. And here’s our ram. And then this, this hell’s Canyon country is typically kind of one open side of the canyon, and then the other side is timbered. And you gotta remember it’s a hundred to 110 degrees. So those rams timber up like milder that time of year. And

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Yeah. Goodness, you’re in September, right? First September?

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We are, we’re in Sep. Oh, it’s actually like the last few days. Late August, few days of August. Yeah. Yeah. So it was awful. But Shelby was, you know, she just, she’d hunted, but she didn’t kind of have that experience. And heck, neither did I at the time. And there was a lot of pressure. We had a lot of guys in camp, everybody, of course you guys know, and as sheep tag is around, everybody wants to be part of that hunt. And I remember she was just on the verge of a breakdown, just with all the pressure around her to, to get a big ram killed and do this and that. And, and Dan called Shelby that night and they talked on the hill and he talked her, talked her off the cliff, so to speak. And there were tears. And, and Dan, Dan for being such a great mentor to myself, was just like that with Shelby as well. And, and said, Shelby is what it is. We’re gonna do our best. And, you know, and so long story short, the next day we went after it and, and thankfully relocated the ram. We didn’t get him killed that first day.

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Was he all by himself?

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He was with 13 Rams. Oh, wow. That, that morning. And that’s the only reason we found him. Did he

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Come out of the timber? Was he out of the timber from the blackberry?

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He was right on the timber, right on the edge of the timber at daylight. And they had moved, embedded under a juniper. You could, you would’ve never seen him unless you watched him walk to that juniper in bed. So we made a stock on him, and Shelby was just shaking so bad with a rifle. I wasn’t letting her shoot. ’cause I could tell, you know, we’re about 300 yards, which is about her max range, and it’s

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About the max range of a 7:00 AM M oh eight. It really is. Yeah. I’ve shot him with my kids, Adam and I both have them. And my kid killed his first buck with it, and it’s just It is, it is. But anyway, so yeah, it,

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It, it really was. And she was, the pressure was getting to her and, and we just decided that she couldn’t make the shot. And the Rams had moved to the other side of the canyon. So second day of the hunt, we relocated the ram, and now he had broke off and was with only two other sheep. And we, we moved in and it was kind of one of those stocks where you were gonna pop up and it was gonna be a close shot kind of thing. And, and that Wiley hole ram kind of tried to backdoor us and move out. And next thing we know, he’s coming up a, a finger ridge a hundred yards from us. And Shelby laid down on the ground real quick, kind of one knee deal and, and shot the ram as he spun and looked right at us. And we, we just couldn’t believe it. We were related. We didn’t know how big he was, or really, oddly enough, you know, Dan, Dan doesn’t like to throw numbers out there at all, but he just told me, Cal, that’s the ram you guys need to kill if you have the opportunity. And I had shared the photos with some, you know, fairly experienced sheep hunters or, or so they thought, and nobody tell me that ram would, would go 180 inches. I couldn’t believe it. Looking at the photos of him.

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Not even 180.

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Not even 180. Yeah. Wow. Geez. So we walked up to him and I put my hands around his bases for the first time, and I, I couldn’t, couldn’t believe him. And when we got him back to camp, he was 17 inch bases and 42 long, so, geez.

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So what did he end up going?

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He was 1 93.

00:17:03:08 –> 00:17:07:25
And how, how many rams did you put your hands on prior to this ram?

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That was the first sheet I

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Ever see. That’s what I think’s. Hilarious. I mean, I think it’s hilarious. It’s

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Crazy, the rookies, so to speak, and every sense of the word, you know. Oh, a hundred,

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A hundred percent. But

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You put in more time, I would dare say, than nearly anybody on that unit. And that’s an awesome story for getting your, I guess, first start. So you, so to speak in sheep or, you know, wanting to kill giant stuff or take whatever hunting to another level. And 193 inch rocky is world class in any state. Oh my gosh,

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You’re exactly right. That’s ridiculous. As I was saying, that kind of sling shotted me into the fact that, you know, it seems like a local person in eastern Oregon draws that tag every year. It’s pretty popular unit to apply in. So then it just kind of became, you know, Hey, Cal, would you, would you guys mind coming to help us? And we just fell in love with sheep and fell in love with sheep hunting. So for a period of, you know, four or five years there, I was just jumping at any opportunity I could to go on any sheep hunts anywhere. And I, I kind of diverged into mountain goats as well, and, and I got real interested in big elk and big deer. And for a long time there, for a period of a few years, I was spending my own gas money just to go help these people with tags, wherever, if I could be a part of the hunt and if I could be of value, you know, I was there. So

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Not, not acting as an outfitter guide necessarily, just just because you’re loving it. Yeah, yeah. You wanna be, you’re

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Right. It

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Taste it. Yeah.

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It kind of turned into you, you guys, knowing the guiding outfitting business. There’s a lot of outfitters in some of these units at the time, and, and they were like, you know, they were concerned that I was doing this illegally and taking money and doing this, but I assured to have my t’s crossed and i’s dotted and, you know, I didn’t take any money ever. And it was just, I kind of had a plan early on, and I knew if I could do this and build my resume and show that I could accomplish this and help these people do this, that if I ever wanted to be a guide or an outfitter, I feel like it would give me a step up. And I, I kind of project myself into the industry, so to speak.

00:19:11:15 –> 00:19:19:29
Yeah. Well you’re getting a lot of experience off of, you know, draw guys and without a lot of the pressure because you’re just there helping, you know, and so you’re

00:19:19:29 –> 00:19:21:02
Exactly right. Yeah.

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That’s, you

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Know, and when you’re starting off, especially on higher profile, it’s hard to species like sheep and goat, it’s hard to get

00:19:27:28 –> 00:19:28:02

00:19:28:02 –> 00:19:33:00
Experience. You can’t just say, Hey, I’m a new sheep and goat outfit, or book me, you, you gotta,

00:19:33:16 –> 00:19:34:24
My wife killed a monster, but

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She killed a monster, but, you know, I don’t wanna hit wonder, you know, you gotta get four or five under your belt. And they’re like, geez, this guy’s always showing up in pictures with people he must know, know something.

00:19:44:11 –> 00:20:10:19
You’re exactly right. And it’s, I, that’s exactly what I thought early on. And there was a lot of people who told me it was stupid, and you, you know, be, be careful, Cal, don’t get any go, don’t get in trouble or anything. And I said, I, I’m not worried about getting in any trouble. I I’m not doing anything wrong. I’m just the guy in the background of all the photos because I’m doing all I can to make these people successful and fulfill my passion for sheep hunting or big elk or big deer mountain goats. So,

00:20:10:24 –> 00:20:13:11
Yeah. So yeah, that’s,

00:20:13:13 –> 00:20:23:07
So then that, let’s see, that starts in 2012. Now you’re, tell us about your business, your partner, how all this came about.

00:20:23:28 –> 00:20:32:08
So, so incidentally, I, I kind of started doing that and, and my wife would tell me I was crazy when I, you know, I’d come from one hunt, come home, she’s telling you

00:20:32:10 –> 00:20:34:20
To get a job, what she’s doing. Yeah. They’re

00:20:34:20 –> 00:20:35:23
Good at telling us where crazy.

00:20:36:00 –> 00:21:01:16
I was outta college now and I was working, but I, like I said, I was spending my own gas money to go do this. Yeah. And buying my, you know, piece by piece, building my toolbox, so to speak, and buying my first Paris ky binoculars, or it’s spotting scope or here and there and, and really just working my way through it. I, I can’t tell you how many nights I’d come home and, and Shelby would pack me more food and wash my clothes and slap me on the butt and go out the door and I’d say, I’ll see you in another week. You know? Yeah. So it,

00:21:01:27 –> 00:21:14:02
You gotta have a good wife to be able to do this, this end. And we’ve talked about it several times. Lucky this industry, we’re lucky. You know, you gotta have a good one. If you we’re all lucky to have good, if you’ve got a normal wife, you’re not gonna make it in this industry.

00:21:14:16 –> 00:21:15:17
You gotta have a really good one.

00:21:15:18 –> 00:21:26:07
I tell you. She is, she is responsible for so much of my personal success. I can’t even, I mean, probably more so than myself. I mean, I, I could not do what I do without her, without a doubt in my mind.

00:21:26:14 –> 00:21:39:16
Yeah. Texas port, we’re right there with you. We get it. So you’re, you’re, you know, last, I dunno, few years. Tell us how you made the, all right, I’m gonna be a guide or an outfitter and how you partnered up with who you’re partnered up with and what you call yourselves. Sure,

00:21:39:16 –> 00:22:01:08
Sure. So, you know, I, I was kind of looking for a direction to turn and kind of what I wanted to do, and I looked at a couple of these, you know, Oregon has a fairly strange permit system for becoming an outfitter. They, they like to, they like to issue a lot of temporary use permits where you gotta basically file for permit with every hunter and every particular area. And of, it goes through

00:22:01:14 –> 00:22:04:12
The police department. Right. It’s the state police. Yeah.

00:22:04:27 –> 00:23:20:04
Yes. And you gotta have B l m permits. Forest service permits. Wilderness permits. They definitely don’t, don’t make it an easy deal for an outfitter. No. And I didn’t want to pigeonhole myself into one particular unit for one particular species. There’s just a lot of outfitters in the state of Oregon that were like that. And I had bigger aspirations and dreams in doing that. So I, I learned early on that I needed to partner with the right people, the right ground, and the right individuals that can continue to make me successful and I can help make them successful. So coincidentally, I had some great mentors and guys that wanted to partner with me, Dan as well, ironically enough. Yeah. So we decided to do that and move forward. And, and also Oregon just doesn’t really manage for trophy species or trophy deer, trophy elk or anything like that. It’s more of an opportunity managed state. So I kind of came to the realization that these large tracks of privately owned land were the key to growing big deer or big elk because we could manage that ground ourselves and limit the amount of animals we’re taking and take selective animals and, you know, implement our own predator management systems. And then, then all of a sudden we’re starting to grow these older deer or older

00:23:20:04 –> 00:23:22:18
Elk. That’s smart. Because we know Oregon, the

00:23:22:18 –> 00:23:23:14
State’s not gonna do it

00:23:23:15 –> 00:23:30:29
For you. It’s not like Nevada where, you know, it’s the majority is, or, or Utah or whatever. I mean, you do have a lot of private up there in Oregon where you can actually do that.

00:23:31:28 –> 00:24:05:02
You’re correct. And so we, you know, a couple of my partners were able to secure some long-term leases and land purchases and, and really starting to monopolize the amount of private land to where it was a, a big enough tract of land that we could manage it and, and see, see, I mean, we’re already seeing the results of some of the actions we’re taking now. And I, I think the future looks very, very bright. That being said, there’s nothing wrong with managing for opportunity. I mean, I think that that makes up the vast majority of hunters Yeah. Especially in Oregon. But if

00:24:05:07 –> 00:24:10:20
They just not gonna pay you big money. Yeah. That’s the thing. You’re not gonna make money on an opportunity hunter. You know what I mean? Well,

00:24:10:21 –> 00:24:19:02
Or, or like yourself. You’re don’t want to take your time away from your regular job or your family to just go shoot meat bulls and average bucks. You guys are

00:24:19:02 –> 00:24:19:18
Exactly right.

00:24:20:17 –> 00:24:23:04
Back to the over the counter spikes. Isn’t gonna, it’s not gonna cut

00:24:23:04 –> 00:24:37:07
Anymore. Yeah, that’s, you’re exactly right. That’s the way I looked at it is I didn’t wanna miss, you know, a week’s worth of my time to, for, you know, to go hunt a, a $5,000 elk hunt. It just wasn’t it, you know? Yeah. It didn’t, it didn’t benefit myself or my family, or I don’t think was a good use of my time. Yeah.

00:24:37:09 –> 00:24:42:26
Take somebody on one Aha. Walla Walla or something. All right. Different story. We’re having some giant bulls

00:24:42:26 –> 00:24:56:14
And sometimes, you know, these, the better outfitters, they, they have a drive in ’em to be for some reason just to, to, to maximize tags to maximize the opportunities in particular units. And that’s what drives Adam and I, you don’t wanna put your hands on the biggest thing that walks

00:24:57:02 –> 00:25:32:08
Oh, that, that’s what, that’s what drives us. That’s what we really enjoy. It’s not about killing 30 bulls a year on this. It’s about getting that one particular bull or sheep or goat or Yeah. Or whatever it may be. And I, I, the chasing the pursuit guys is what we love. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And I have, like I said, my mentors and the partners that I’ve had have just really struck a core with me and really ingrained that into my d n a, you know, you can look, I just don’t get as excited looking at 160 inch deer that’s three years old as I do at deer. That’s, you know, much older and much bigger kind of thing. So

00:25:32:08 –> 00:25:42:10
How did you get into the big deer? How’d you get into Big Elk? I mean, where are some of those experiences? Did you accompany some people in the one aha or other different opportunities that you have there in Oregon?

00:25:43:01 –> 00:26:49:26
Sure thing. Another mentor of mine, he was an outfitter back in the day. John Wick kind of, I, I knew him early on and same kind of thing. I think he recognized the drive that I had and the passion. And I, you know, John, whatever people may say about him, he is one of the best, most passionate elk hunters I’ve ever seen in my life. Yeah. Extremely, extremely talented individual. So John, much like all these other guys, I, I was able to take a little piece from John and if I took anything from him, it was his drive passion and determination. Yeah. And he taught me everything I knew about finding big bulls and looking for big bulls and then win Aha. And Mount Emily and Walla Walla. This kind of Oregon’s big three units. Yeah. And really I, that area still is, I’m super passionate about it. Love it. If I have a friend that has a tag or, or, or something like that, I love to go hunt that country. Yeah. Unfortunately, much like the permit system I was alluding to, they make it extremely hard to, to guide an outfit in there. That’s tough. Like there’s only one, one permitted outfitter that can guide in the wilderness. Yeah. Just one, you know, so

00:26:50:01 –> 00:26:58:26
Well, and to get those outfitter tags here and there and it’s, I don’t know, I hate to even use the word tags with an SS because it’s, they’re so few and far between. You’re

00:26:58:26 –> 00:26:59:16
Exactly right.

00:26:59:23 –> 00:27:35:14
But, but we did, you know, my dad had one of those years back in on the Waha archery and that’s some thick, nasty country. And that was like one of the first years G P Ss even came out and we were, you know, freaking lost one line, thankful you had it. Oh, well. And they couldn’t find the satellites ’cause we’re in this tree forest and anyway, but the waha was pretty, a pretty special place, especially considering Oregon, you know, but, but anyway, yeah. Tough to make a living as an outfitter out. They have the outfitter tags, but, you know, across the state, sprinkled across the state. But there’s just hardly any opportunity for, for an outfitter like yourself, for

00:27:35:14 –> 00:27:35:29
Top end truck

00:27:35:29 –> 00:28:41:25
Stuff. You’re exactly right. And yeah. You know, that’s your baby. If you’re, if you’re gonna be an outfitter in the win, aha. That is your passion. And that’s, that’s the only place you’re gonna be because you’re the only guy for that hunt. And you know, the outfitter over there, he is a great guy. Great. They run a great outfit. They’re successful for sure. And it’s just, it’s just not something I was real interested in doing. I didn’t want to pigeonhole myself into one place in one species. Yeah. So to this day, you know, all I do is if I have a friend that has a tag or you know, or a family member or one of my partners or something like that, you know, we love to go hunt there. I had a, a friend Nick that had a, he actually drew the Oregon raffle elk tag Wow. A couple years ago. And, and we went in there and hunted real hard. I had actually just, I came out of the Frank Church in Idaho after a 10 day backpack hunt and turned and burned and showed up in the wenaha. And we’d been looking for one particular bull that between John and myself, we had seven sets of sheds off of him. Wow. And a real special big typical bull. And, and we were able to locate him and, and get him killed. He was, he was a 3 80, 3 82 typical. It’s

00:28:41:25 –> 00:28:42:24
A freaking monster

00:28:43:05 –> 00:28:44:10
For Oregon. Just a freaking

00:28:44:10 –> 00:28:45:02
Monster, you know?

00:28:45:07 –> 00:28:45:19

00:28:45:19 –> 00:28:47:17
A monster. Yeah. It’s a monster, monster. I remember a

00:28:48:19 –> 00:28:50:25
Dark, dark antler bull I remember. Beautiful.

00:28:51:16 –> 00:28:51:23

00:28:52:00 –> 00:29:12:01
That, that bull was kind of, that, that bull struck a chord with me as well. Just after watching an animal alive for so many years. And he’d show up on the wintering grounds in the same place like clockwork. And shed in the, you know, relatively the same area year after year. And walking up to him on the ground was kind of surreal. It was almost sad. I kind of, it makes me

00:29:12:01 –> 00:29:14:00
Sound weird to say the saga was over. Yeah. It’s,

00:29:14:02 –> 00:29:20:19
Yeah. But you just know you’d never watch him again. You’d never pick his antlers up again. But the bull was 13 years old, I mean Yeah,

00:29:20:26 –> 00:29:21:05

00:29:21:14 –> 00:29:23:25
Probably weren’t gonna watch him very much more anyways. So. Well

00:29:23:26 –> 00:29:38:14
We’ve experienced that from time to time. How it’s bittersweet, if you can call it that, because there’s a lot of time in investment in some of these animals and some years they’re down and, or you don’t have anybody with a tag to even hunt ’em and the next year they get away or whatever. And yeah,

00:29:38:23 –> 00:29:45:16
It’s just one of those things you get so attached to ’em and look forward to seeing what they’re gonna be this year and picking up their sheds. And it’s

00:29:45:16 –> 00:30:06:06
Very cool. I I, you know, it going and hunting and killing an animal that you saw for the first time, that, that’s a great thing for a lot of people. But for me it takes it to next level when it’s an animal you’ve lived with and watched and learned his habits and learned what he does and, and then outsmart that old fox, if you know, so to speak. Yeah. Yeah. That’s, that takes it on another level for me.

00:30:06:20 –> 00:30:17:12
What, and so how about d dear? I mean, you’re, you’re into Goat sheep Dear Elk. I mean, maybe how help, I don’t know. I mean, how did you get, how did you get into the, how did you get

00:30:17:12 –> 00:30:50:05
Couple of my other part, you know, Scott Coe and Todd Long Good have, they had this huge mul deer passion we used to joke about all the time. I said, I don’t know why you guys like those things, you know? Yeah. I, I just didn’t get it until I realized how hard it is to find a big old deer. Yeah. And I think it was that pursuit that drew me to it. And you know, we have some of the best deer ground in the state of Oregon, in my opinion. I think it’s bar none the best opportunity to produce a big deer. And still, you know, those deer that go one 90 plus are so rare, so rare to find

00:30:50:05 –> 00:30:52:22
To what, what unit are you in? What, what area are we

00:30:52:22 –> 00:30:54:12
Talking? We’re in the Lookout Mountain unit. Okay.

00:30:54:20 –> 00:31:01:14
And so you’re talking like your private leases within the lookout, you think like that’s the best opportunity. You got genetics, you got age.

00:31:01:24 –> 00:31:17:23
I really do. We have genetics, we have great management. You know, we’re killing a lot of coyotes and the deer live a non pressured life. We’re letting it, we kill very, very few deer on over 20,000 acres of private ground. We kill, you know, just one or two deer a year.

00:31:18:07 –> 00:31:18:13

00:31:19:03 –> 00:31:30:02
Very, very few. And we’re, we’re real particular about which deer we kill, you know, this year we already pretty much have it out, you know, mapped out which deer should be taken because we’ve been watching him for five years. He’s

00:31:30:02 –> 00:31:30:11
Maxed out.

00:31:30:15 –> 00:31:49:01
He’s, he’s maxed out. He is never doing anything different. And, and then we’ve got some, some young up and comers that I think I, I sent you both a picture. We got a great buck that’s got five eye guards and a drop tie and a great frame. But you know, I think we’ve made the decision that we’re gonna let that deer go and go another year or two and see what he does. We think he’s only a four year old deer. So. Yeah.

00:31:49:21 –> 00:31:58:23
Wow. Well you’re pretty fortunate to be able to unique, you know Yeah. To do that. To be able to just harvest one or two deer. ’cause you got so many other things going and be able to continue to

00:31:58:25 –> 00:32:14:29
Make you guys are exactly right. Yeah. That’s why we’re able to do it. And we have a big mul deer passion, so we wanna see what that deer’s potential could be. And you, you know, you guys know going four to five on a good year, who knows what that deer could blow up into. Yeah. Or, or he could get e my mountain wine, you know, it’s a risky

00:32:14:29 –> 00:32:22:00
Take I guess. Yeah. It guess can go either way. Could pay off for you big or you’d be like, man, we should have taken him. He’s dead in the rock somewhere.

00:32:22:04 –> 00:32:32:26
So do you be a guide on any of these others? Like the, the late, you know, Juniper muzzle or any of these, you know, steams or do you do any of these other units or just pretty much that stick with that one?

00:32:32:26 –> 00:33:12:00
We, we have hunted them. We have hunted them personally for our, for our own and really enjoy the units. They, the juniper hunt in particular can be tough ’cause it’s very migratory so it can produce a big deer, but it’s still a tough hunt. And, and we really like the steams as well. I think that area can turn a big deer up anytime. Sure. But we really, really enjoy it. But as far as guiding down there, again, very difficult permit system. They do offer some outfitter tags to do it. So we’ll of course apply for those outfitter tags. And if we can pull one, there’s several people that would definitely be interested in hunting that hunt with us. So Yeah.

00:33:12:11 –> 00:33:23:18
Well I’ve hunted, we, we did one of those outfitter tags on the juniper and been in the steams a bit and stuff. And that is some crazy rugged, that steams is some rugged stuff. Just a flat road is rugged.

00:33:24:08 –> 00:33:27:08
Oh God. You better bring three or four spare tires with you. It’s

00:33:27:14 –> 00:33:27:26

00:33:28:13 –> 00:33:28:19

00:33:28:19 –> 00:33:30:11
Could kill a unbelievable LaVar

00:33:30:11 –> 00:33:31:19
Rock puncture stuff.

00:33:31:19 –> 00:33:32:20
Yeah. It’s crazy.

00:33:32:26 –> 00:33:40:16
You could kill a deer in the sagebrush flats or you could kill ’em above 9,000 feet. I mean, it’s just absolutely crazy terrain. Yeah,

00:33:40:27 –> 00:33:41:14
Yeah. It is.

00:33:41:19 –> 00:33:47:06
So you’re, you’re fast forward and I guess to where we are now, 2017, you’re you’re

00:33:47:06 –> 00:33:49:12
Looking to take some mountain goat. Yeah.

00:33:49:26 –> 00:33:50:13
Mount goat.

00:33:50:27 –> 00:33:56:16
You’re, I mean it’s in you thinking you’re hunting squirrels, you’re doing everything big. That’s right. But you’re calling

00:33:56:18 –> 00:33:56:26
Yourself, we

00:33:56:26 –> 00:34:21:19
Really are Sheep Mountain Outfitters. That’s what you’re, you’re known as, right? You and your partners, correct. Whatnot. Yep. Correct. Okay. Correct. And, and specializing in what, tell us, I ideally, and for people that, you know, I mean obviously the draw stuff for sheep and goat, that’s where they come along as they come along. Deer, private land stuff and maybe a few key elk. And is that, is there anything additional to that? Is that kind of what you guys do?

00:34:22:07 –> 00:34:36:18
That’s really what we’re focused on. We get a, a lot of attention for sheep and goats of course, because it’s kind of your, your top tier species. We do guide roughly 35 ish hunters on private land for deer and elk archery and rifle.

00:34:37:11 –> 00:34:43:20
So just not that you talked about two on that ranch, but you’ve got other ranches where you hunt more opportunity, deer,

00:34:43:29 –> 00:34:58:10
Elk, that’s correct. That are more opportunity based. And then usually, we’ll, we’ll hunt with one or two statewide deer hunters, maybe a statewide elk hunter. The only thing we don’t really do a whole lot of is antelope,

00:34:59:03 –> 00:35:00:17
How come I’m just cheese. We

00:35:00:17 –> 00:35:04:16
Need, we need a good antelope outfitter. And you guys got picked bucks.

00:35:05:07 –> 00:35:22:25
I’ve got, we do have just giant antelope and I, I, I’ve got some funny stories about, you know, glassing up an antelope and calling a friend that had a tag. And he goes, how big you think he is, Cal? I said, gosh, I don’t know. He’s a two point and how long do you think his hornet is? Oh, I said, well, 16 or 17 maybe’s. Are you, are you kidding me? They’re

00:35:22:25 –> 00:35:33:28
Similar, they’re similar that way to sheep. That’s why nobody wanted to call your ram over 180. It’s you’re scared to because they’re hard to judge and Yeah. Antelope or so even more so that way it’s extremely tough to judge.

00:35:35:14 –> 00:35:50:11
I just don’t Yeah. And I’m not afraid to admit I just don’t know anything about ’em. Yeah. Yeah. So the hunter came over and killed this goat and it was just spectacular. He looked in the scope at him for, you know, three seconds and said, oh my goodness, are you kidding me? And they, they shoot this an animal ’cause 86 inches, you know, and I,

00:35:51:02 –> 00:35:54:19
There you go. You could be an antelope guide. It’s that easy. That’s

00:35:54:19 –> 00:35:55:26
It. You’re, you’re on the board, Kyle?

00:35:56:15 –> 00:35:57:10
Yeah, I got one.

00:35:58:00 –> 00:36:04:02
I got, that’s the equivalent of a 1 93 initial Bighorn round. You know, 86 antelope, first one.

00:36:04:02 –> 00:36:07:14
Yeah. How many antelope have you touched? One, how big was it? 86 inches.

00:36:09:06 –> 00:36:21:25
Yeah. And that’s just how it goes. I got a friend that’s got an antelope tag and I saw a couple bucks last, last weekend, antelope bucks while I was out watching sheep. And, and he goes, how big you think they’re, I said, gosh, I don’t know, they’re bucks. I don’t know,

00:36:22:27 –> 00:36:24:14
They’re Yeah, exactly.

00:36:24:28 –> 00:36:29:00
You’re gonna have to drive up alongside ’em, have ’em chase your truck so you can get a closer look. Yeah.

00:36:29:03 –> 00:36:41:16
Yeah. So I guess if I’m, if I’m fast forwarding to this year, we, you know, we usually, the last few years we hunt, you know, seven to 10 sheep hunters a year. State of Oregon

00:36:41:29 –> 00:36:42:25
In various years. Tell us,

00:36:43:04 –> 00:36:44:04
Rattle off some,

00:36:44:11 –> 00:36:44:26
What are these units

00:36:45:23 –> 00:36:46:06

00:36:46:19 –> 00:36:49:13
Prefer or or willing to do or can do? Rattle

00:36:49:21 –> 00:36:55:00
Adam’s, hunted Beat’s Butte. I hunted John Day. I mean, can you get permits in any unit you want to get ’em in?

00:36:55:14 –> 00:37:18:26
That is, yeah, with sheep, the permit system is actually easier, ironically enough. Oh really? So we just filed with the state of Oregon for a particular hunter and a particular unit and then, and then we’re good to go. There’s really no permit issues with sheep. So it’s just a matter of, you know, if it fits into our time schedule, if it’s a hunter we wanna hunt with and if we can make it happen, we’re definitely gonna make it happen and deliver a great product to the hunter.

00:37:19:02 –> 00:37:22:08
What units on the sheep do you tools you guys specialize in?

00:37:22:23 –> 00:37:40:05
Yeah, we really like, lookout is a, is our kind of home unit. We really, we like Snake River and now Snake River and the chest NamUs unit are kind of combined as one for sheep. Really Like that. We do a lot of John Day hunts as well. So both sides. I think it was Adam, you had a John Day tag, right? Jason?

00:37:40:08 –> 00:37:41:02
I did Jason.

00:37:41:07 –> 00:37:41:16
Oh, it

00:37:41:16 –> 00:37:43:13
Was Jason. I had a West John Day. You

00:37:43:15 –> 00:37:45:05
Do both sides there. East and west.

00:37:45:22 –> 00:37:58:02
We, we prefer the, the east side. We have some land lease there on the east side. Last year we killed 178 inch and a hundred and another mid one seventies ram in there. That’s awesome. So some absolute brutal. Californias these are

00:37:58:02 –> 00:38:00:02
California big horns. Those are all, they’re

00:38:00:02 –> 00:38:21:11
Yeah, they’re California rams. Yep. That’s awesome. The POTUS unit, which is just kind of Upper John Day off the North fork of the John Day River. We’ve killed 180 inch ramming there as well. Wow. California Bighorn. Wow. So that’s a little, that’s a sneaker unit. Unfortunately residents can’t apply for that one, but yeah. Yeah. Phenomenal. So

00:38:22:08 –> 00:38:24:14
Any others far that the bulk of them there, those

00:38:24:14 –> 00:38:30:13
4, 4, 5, that is the bulk of them. Okay. And then we’ll of course address if a hunter has a, has a tag somewhere else. You guys

00:38:30:21 –> 00:38:32:04
Got time or something between

00:38:32:13 –> 00:38:39:06
The team? Yeah, we’ve been in almost every unit that has, has sheep in the state, you know, so if we can, if we can make it happen, we definitely will.

00:38:39:12 –> 00:38:48:20
Yeah. It’ll just keep adding to your portfolio and it’s not like you haven’t proven yourself and with a little bit of time. I mean, you’d be able to figure out any unit. I’m pretty certain, so yeah,

00:38:48:20 –> 00:38:57:18
If we, we just gotta, you know how it is, gotta just gotta commit the time and, and be honest with the hunter and, and do him right by what he’s paying you and, and make it happen.

00:38:58:05 –> 00:39:09:14
So know you’re taking some like mountain goat this year a little bit and of course we’ve texted back and forth some pictures, you know, you and I and Adam and whatnot. But what, tell us a how you got into that? I mean, not there’s hardly any coach

00:39:09:21 –> 00:39:13:13
Sheep and goat where you’re talking kind of overlap in the same country, so

00:39:13:14 –> 00:39:41:04
Yep, yep. So yeah, we spend a lot of time in the, the, the sheep and goats spend a lot of time in the same country and just started hunting some goats with some different hunters and boy mountain goats are tough. They still fool me all the time and like we’re talking, you know, hard to tell texting pictures back and forth, they can be so tough. And Oregon just started implementing an auction goat tag, which has been great. I think it’s a, it raises some really good money for, for the state. I can’t believe how much money it goes for sometimes. But

00:39:41:11 –> 00:39:41:24
How much?

00:39:42:20 –> 00:39:44:11
Around 35, 40,000. Oh

00:39:44:11 –> 00:39:46:20
Wow. Yeah. Wow. A spike. Yeah.

00:39:47:06 –> 00:39:47:14

00:39:48:00 –> 00:39:48:25
A small spike. Yeah. You

00:39:48:29 –> 00:39:49:01

00:39:49:26 –> 00:39:50:02

00:39:50:06 –> 00:39:53:02
Nine inch, nine and three quarters spike. Maybe 10.

00:39:53:12 –> 00:39:56:24
Well maybe 10. Yeah. That’s awesome. That’s

00:39:56:24 –> 00:39:58:00
Crazy. Oregon does grow some

00:39:58:07 –> 00:40:02:18
Absolutely bigly outstanding though. 50 52 inch type

00:40:02:18 –> 00:40:09:10
Stuff plus, yep. Yeah, we can definitely do that in And the crazy thing is in almost any goat unit in the state. Yeah. So

00:40:09:12 –> 00:40:09:20

00:40:09:20 –> 00:40:32:07
Okay. So we like Hell’s Canyon a lot, we like the Elkhorn grow great mountain goats, heck strawberries grow great mountain goats. It’s the only unit I feel like it’s be tougher to, to kill a big mountain goat is some of those eagle cap wilderness hunts. I think the goats just have a harder winter. Yeah. There, so it’s harder to get to that age. But that being said, a guy killed a 50 plus goat in there last year. I mean it happens. Awesome.

00:40:32:20 –> 00:40:43:10
What is your, I mean, of all these species or all these hunts, which ones of each year do you really get most excited about? Is it the sheep? I,

00:40:44:13 –> 00:41:07:21
I’d have to say it’s sheep for myself, you know, but that’s the beautiful thing about having partners in this business is we all kind of have our individual passion, if you will, and big sheep just turn my crank just like nothing else. So I definitely would have to say sheep. But then, you know, there’s others that, you know, other buddies of mine that deer is what, you know, that’s their thing. So

00:41:08:00 –> 00:41:09:07
I can understand that one. Yeah,

00:41:09:29 –> 00:41:12:19
For sure. They’re big deer. Nothing wrong with that either. You bet.

00:41:12:25 –> 00:41:20:09
What Well, so on when you’re calling ’em partners, I mean they’re probably true partners in the business. Are they sub guides that guide for you? Yeah,

00:41:20:17 –> 00:41:59:26
That’s exactly it. Yeah. We have, we have true business partners that are part of the business and then we have guides and then of co we have a long list of guides that just want to be involved with what we’re doing. Sure. Whether that be guiding or they’re out scouting for us, they just wanna be a part of on the hunt of what we’re doing and they know our vi there hasn’t really been an outfitter that’s really dominated the state and I don’t know if dominates the right word, but has taken over the state as far as going statewide and not focused in one little niche. Yeah. So they, they see the vision and passion we have and I think just like anything else, natural human nature, they wanna be a part of that too. And we love to have ’em. It’s, it’s the right guy and the right fit. Yeah. We’re all about

00:41:59:26 –> 00:42:53:17
It. Well, and that’s what I wanted to kind of get into with you a little bit on this podcast a little bit. I, and Adam and I have talked quite a bit, but, and we’re trying to keep track of who’s doing what and it’s, it’s all interesting to us. The animals are interesting, but also the people like yourself that are passionate about it and we wanna be affiliated with those people here at Epic. But anyway, you relatively new, bringing a, a huge awareness to a state like Oregon. I would lump it in similar to California or similar to, you know, Washington or some of these states that are maybe lesser known than, than the other western states. So you’re bringing this awareness and almost feels like an untapped market up there in Oregon for as far as an outfitter perspective. You, not a lot, I mean you, you talk about some other outfitters, but like you said, they like to stick in certain units or maybe they’re a Blacktail outfit or a Roosevelt Elk or both or or whatever.

00:42:53:20 –> 00:43:27:04
But you’re, you’re kind of changing the game a little, I wanna say. And, and to it, you know, it’s, it’s, you know, props to you for doing that and it’s just, it’s quite fun to watch you guys grow and, and of course you’re in on all these, you know, some of these statewide tags and so people are trusting that you’ll find some big animals and putting a lot of faith and money and whatnot into the projects. And so anyway, it’s, it’s quite interesting, intriguing, and pretty awesome to see, you know, Oregon get some of the recognition, you know, from guys like you that are helping out.

00:43:27:04 –> 00:44:25:22
Well thanks Jay, we really appreciate that I think behalf of all of us. Yeah, we really think that, you think that you recognize that and, and we’re trying to do the right thing. It’s tough. The permit system is real tough in this state, so you gotta make sure everything is above board all the time and, and you’re doing the right thing and you’re with the right people. So it takes a lot of work as you guys know, as outfitters yourself. But we’ve got, like I said, these guys, these older guys have just given me such great mentorship along the way and have humbled me repeatedly and said, you know, just continually keep your head down and keep doing this and doors will continue to open for you as long as you continue down this path. And, and that’s really what we’re trying to do. You know, we want, we, you know, we pass on a, if it’s a hunt that we can’t do, you know, we have, if it’s a reputable outfit that we have a great relationship with, we, you know, have no problem at all passing that hunter onto that outfitter, just making sure everybody gets taken care of, especially if they’re, you know, epic clients and, and stuff like that.

00:44:25:25 –> 00:44:38:18
So. Well that’s awesome. We really appreciate what you guys are doing for us as well. Yeah, it’s been, it’s been a big help. You guys have been responsible for some great hunters that have come and booked with us this year and I think we’re, we’re set to have an absolute banner year coming up this year.

00:44:39:08 –> 00:45:29:22
Well we’re, we’re glad to do it and like I said it, you know, Jason and I picked up, you can kind of get a feeling. I mean even if you don’t know somebody, in our case, you know, this last, you know, roughly years when we’ve gotten to know you more or less connected with you, reached out to you, things like that wanted you as a outfitter source for our clients that we felt we could trust obviously, that we can then have long-term relationship and trust with our clients. They book with you there or have a great hunt with you there, they’re gonna trust us with their New Mexico elk tag or their Montana sheep tag or whatever they draw down the road. And that’s, that’s what it’s about is long-term partnerships that, that make everybody better at what they do and, and make everybody, you know, stay relevant and stay cutting edge and new and all that.

00:45:29:22 –> 00:46:13:07
And I think that is kind of the, I dunno, fresh perspective that maybe what we’re seeing you guys are offering in there because it is a, it is a tough state. You know, we’re, we’re not as privy to the ins and outs of the outfitter permitting system that you’ve kind of alluded to, but we’re very familiar with the regular state permit pro process there. It’s frankly, you know, like you’ve talked about, it’s been a little frustrating. It’s, it’s tough, especially from a non-resident perspective. It’s Oregon’s not one, it’s not a no-brainer for people to apply up there. The only really saving grace from like sheep and goat in, in our opinions is they don’t have a point system. So Correct. At least you’ve got as good a chance as anybody and, and Jason and I guess are living proof that non-residents can drop. We shouldn’t drawn it.

00:46:13:07 –> 00:46:14:22
You guys have both beat the odds. Yeah,

00:46:14:24 –> 00:46:26:02
Yeah, we did. And crazy. So you, you can, and, but obviously it was the, you know, $160 license and $8 per speech, you could spend a couple hundred bucks a year in Oregon and maybe not get anything ever out of it.

00:46:26:15 –> 00:46:31:07
Exactly. Right. That’s, that’s real tough to justify for a non-resident and I totally understand that.

00:46:31:11 –> 00:47:26:23
But at the same time, you know, somebody’s gonna get ’em and it’s nice to have somebody like you and, and you, your guys for when that happens. Because you know, most people in Oregon that are looking to burn points on their elk deer if they’ve been doing it for a long time, they want, they want what you can probably help ’em with. And that’s a big elk or, or a, a big deer or obviously sheep or goats. So nice that we got, you know, somebody like yourself to, to send them to because you know, we all maybe wish Oregons a little bit different, but the west is what it is and each state, you know, has a certain system and it is what it is. And so you gotta adapt and do it. Like you said, you got some of these raffle tag programs, private land, some of these auction tags that you’re all able to keep and do you know what you wanna do and, and you’re, you gotta be flexible and adapt to that ’cause Yeah. Otherwise you can’t really make a, a real living up there doing it, you know, in one set unit like you said.

00:47:27:09 –> 00:48:03:10
Yeah, exactly. Right. And, and, and you know, I realize we are kind of the young guys on the block, so to speak, especially myself and a lot of the outfitting businesses in the state of Oregon have been established for a long time. And I don’t, I don’t, I don’t mean to speak demeaningly of ’em if I call ’em mom and pops out businesses, but that’s kind of how they’ve been. They’ve been family run businesses for decades and they may not be kind of tapped into the way Epic has so many, has so much clientele and, and what your business has to offer. So if anything, if it’s a hunter, we, we can’t guide or we can’t fit ’em in, we’re very tapped into the market in Oregon and know who the best guide give them to us kind of thing. What do

00:48:03:10 –> 00:48:31:19
You, so what do, what is your, you know, advice for non-residents? Should they be applying? Should they just go on private land with you? Should they, you know, just wait until they want to go and then try to book a hunt and figure it out? Should be, they gain in points. I mean say I want 190 inch deer or 185 or 80 inch plus deer and a, you know, 3 30, 3 40 plus bull. I mean, would you be applying, would you be buying, what’s your advice to non-residents there in Oregon?

00:48:31:25 –> 00:49:18:28
I have a, I have a hard time discouraging a non-resident from applying just because there are tags given away at random in the state of Oregon as far as applying. So you always have a chance, especially for sheep and mountain goats, there’s some fantastic, we grow some of the biggest big horn sheep and, and mountain goats in the state. And up until recent years it really hasn’t been common knowledge, if you will. Yeah. But we’re producing some fantastic sheep and goats. So if you’re looking for an upper level deer or an upper level elk, though elk in particular, some of these wilderness units in Oregon are, are the, are the way to be, in my opinion, if you want to get a bigger, older, mature bull. But the private land opportunities from some of the bigger private land managing outfitting businesses or companies is probably the way to go because for

00:49:18:28 –> 00:49:19:16
Deer elk. Yeah,

00:49:19:23 –> 00:49:28:29
For deer elk. I agree. They just, that’s where you can grow older deer and you can grow older elk and with the right feed and the right management, that’s what’s gonna grow ’em to the trophy level. So

00:49:28:29 –> 00:49:58:10
Well do you generally get, those would be units, I’m assuming some of them that you have a little bit higher permit numbers because of the amount of private land the state wants to appease landowners opportunity, you know, either to hunt or lease ground or whatever, or the opportunity to have a few more of the outfitter tags out there. So if you don’t have the points to draw, maybe it doesn’t take 18 or 20 to draw those type of units. But if you can’t draw ’em, then you also maybe have another alternative picking up an outfitter tag if you do it early enough.

00:49:58:22 –> 00:50:38:17
That’s correct, yes. You know, the outfitter draw the outfitters in Oregon will come out early and what you can do is always check with us or any of the other Organ outfitters and see what outfitter tags they drew or what they have available. And then if you’re ready to hunt here and now the landowner tags are really what you gotta look at. And you know, we’re allotted a certain amount of outfitter ta or l o p tags based off of acreage as well as the game management plan in that particular G M U. So every year it varies a little bit. They cut tags back on us pretty bad because of the winter this year. But that’s no problem, you know, if anything, we’d like to see these tag numbers stay where they’re at right now forever. Yeah. To grow some older deer and, and, and things like that. Well,

00:50:38:17 –> 00:50:40:02
Oregon doesn’t like old deer, you know, that

00:50:40:15 –> 00:50:42:16
They don’t, they, I the average deer, like,

00:50:42:18 –> 00:50:43:24
They don’t like dead deer and tag one

00:50:43:24 –> 00:50:45:01
And a half years old and killed

00:50:45:04 –> 00:50:55:25
From a road. So, well, how big do you guys want to get, you’re talking 35 deer and elk and X amount of, you know, seven to 10 sheep and all of this, like how big, I mean partners,

00:50:55:27 –> 00:50:56:20
Is that about what it’s

00:50:56:20 –> 00:51:03:11
Need money and partners, you know, like are you looking to grow? Are you looking to stay the same, just kill bigger stuff, get a better reputation? What’s your goals?

00:51:04:14 –> 00:51:43:12
You know, guys, we’ve, we’ve had that discussion a lot lately and we have such a great deal going where we’re at, but I really think with the particular people we have in place now in the sky is the limit. So I think a couple of our future moves are gonna be continuing to increase, you know, sheep and mountain goats and then we’re gonna pick up some bigger tracks of private land as well throughout the state. The only problem with that is having the right guy in place to continue to make that happen. So in order to manage more land and manage more hunting at the quality level, we want to, we’ll definitely be bringing in some more partners in the business with us because we want to continue to grow and grow and turn into even bigger deals. So, yeah.

00:51:43:25 –> 00:51:50:26
Well it’s natural. Every business wants to grow and, but what we’ve found over the years is there’s a sweet spot, you know, and you end up where there’s

00:51:50:26 –> 00:51:51:22
A Yeah, ly agree.

00:51:52:06 –> 00:52:02:11
Yeah. Diminishing return where, you know, x amount of more clients requires X amount of more and more and more and maybe you give up a piece of your reputation because you don’t have your hands in a little bit of everything and really,

00:52:02:11 –> 00:52:07:11
Yeah. And that’s the last, last thing we want. ’cause if there’s a bad experience, it, it falls on all of our shoulders, right?

00:52:07:14 –> 00:52:08:10
It does. Yeah. We,

00:52:08:10 –> 00:52:13:01
We accept that and you’ll fill it. We need another Calvin or a Todd or a Scott or a Dan or you. And

00:52:13:01 –> 00:52:15:24
They don’t make ’em, they don’t make guys like you every day. They just don’t, they’re

00:52:15:24 –> 00:52:17:19
Tough to find. Yeah. They’re tough to find. You know,

00:52:17:26 –> 00:52:46:19
So you’ll feel the sweet spot more or less. I mean, you’re obviously sounds like you’re fairly new as a, as a crew of you guys, you’ve got a lot of experience, but as far as being together, you’re new, but you’ll feel it. You guys aren’t gonna wanna be the kind of guys, you, knowing what I know about at least Dan and you, that that is quality, the over quantity, that’s never gonna change. And so you’ll, you’ll feel that and when something starts to give or feel like it, you’ll naturally back off slightly and settle into the groove wherever that sweet spot is, that’ll it’ll

00:52:46:19 –> 00:52:58:28
Happen. Agreed. And that’s, that’s what those mentors are for, for me to, to check me and, and humble me and tell me, you know, this is where we think we should be to maintain the quality of experience and the quality of animals that we currently have. So, well

00:52:59:02 –> 00:53:14:22
I just, I just personally want you guys to stay in Oregon because I don’t want to have you guys down here killing all our deer and stuff because Oh good. With your personality and your aggressiveness. You could put the herd on some things. So anyway, just stay just,

00:53:14:26 –> 00:53:17:01
We’ll, we’ll probably be sticking to Oregon for quite a while, dude.

00:53:17:10 –> 00:53:18:00
Alright. Alright.

00:53:18:00 –> 00:53:19:22
That’s where we’re, we’re pretty rooted over here.

00:53:19:29 –> 00:53:21:10
Alright, good. Well what

00:53:21:10 –> 00:53:27:23
About, what about this year, 2017? What’s on tap for some are your bigger hunts you got either personally or

00:53:28:09 –> 00:53:33:20
Seems like something’s going on tomorrow or next day or next day. I mean, you got some things coming down the pipe right here.

00:53:34:06 –> 00:54:06:29
Yeah. Yeah. We have a statewide sheep hunter starting on August 1st. Brock, you guys both know Brock. Yeah. Really, really excited to hunt with Brock. He’s coming down with his bow. We got some fantastic rams for him. Really gonna try to push to break the Oregon archery state record on Bighorn. Wow. And I think, I think we’ve got a couple rams that’ll do it. So we’re really, really looking forward to that. And then we’ve got a number of sheep hunts coming. We have a real fun one this year. I have a 12 year old kid who drew a lookout sheep tag Wow.

00:54:07:04 –> 00:54:07:17

00:54:07:17 –> 00:54:08:23
To hunt with us, so Geez,

00:54:08:23 –> 00:54:09:05
That’s awesome.

00:54:10:00 –> 00:54:19:10
Resident resident. He is a resident local kid. We know his family real well. Oh. And they drew the sheep tag and, and we reached out to them and said we’d love to take him hunting. So, wow.

00:54:19:24 –> 00:54:20:10
Good for you.

00:54:21:02 –> 00:54:29:06
We’re gonna take him. And I, I just think if this kid has a great experience, he’s gonna be a hunter for the rest of his life and maybe he’ll be a sheep guide for sheep mountain outfits one day. You never know.

00:54:29:16 –> 00:54:29:29
There you

00:54:29:29 –> 00:54:30:04

00:54:30:26 –> 00:54:35:29
Yeah. I just know the kind of passion that something like that and a good experience can spark. So, oh yeah.

00:54:35:29 –> 00:54:36:29
It happened to, we’re gonna have

00:54:37:03 –> 00:54:59:16
Him and his dad and his family and, and kill a ram. We’re really, really looking forward to that. We got a great ram picked out for him. That’s great. Nine and a half, 10 and a half year old ram And when we can kind of decide which rams in the unit get killed, it really is, it’s showing that it can help with our management a ton and, and we can grow the right rams and, and kill the right rams at the right age kind of thing. So we, we love that opportunity to

00:54:59:16 –> 00:55:14:12
Do that. Well that’s what’s you’re again, a unique spot up there. ’cause you’re not competing against, you know, 14 other outfitters and trying to, you know, and then you can’t, you can almost almost have your private management strategy on a public land type draw tags, you know what I mean?

00:55:14:14 –> 00:55:17:23
That’s exactly, that’s exactly our intent. That’s what we’re trying to

00:55:17:23 –> 00:55:20:01
Do. It’s pretty crazy. It’s pretty fun.

00:55:20:19 –> 00:55:55:12
I’m sure it’s a strange dynamic. It really is. But that’s what we’re striving to do and I tell you guys, we’re seeing the results of it. It’s, it’s doing well, it’s doing real well. And after the sheep, we’ve got some goats coming up. I we think we’re gonna kill a real big goat this year as well. And we’re really excited about that. And some more sheep hunts on the John Day down there in the rutt. We really enjoy those hunts all the time. Wow. We’re looking forward to that. And then some great archery elk hunting on some of our private ground and then rifle elk hunting and we may kill a deer or two. We’ve got a statewide deer hunter hunting with us as well and looking forward to that, so

00:55:55:17 –> 00:55:56:17
That’s awesome. Good.

00:55:56:17 –> 00:55:58:26
What about anything personal for you? You

00:55:58:26 –> 00:56:00:07
Guys do probably no time for personal,

00:56:00:13 –> 00:56:01:18
It doesn’t sound like it, but

00:56:02:03 –> 00:56:04:25
Why’s gonna have didn’t quit her job again or whatever. Yeah,

00:56:04:27 –> 00:56:25:26
It’s, it’s real tough. I think we’ve committed to opening two days of archery season. Shelby’s gonna try and kill a bull with her bow. I got to watch her kill her first archery ye last year’s. Nice. That’s awesome. A six point bull. And, and I, I was so elated to watch her kill a bull. It was just the most fun thing in the world for me. Yeah. She even alluded to just killing something with your bow is so different, she says

00:56:25:27 –> 00:56:35:14
So bad. No, it is. You’re just so much closer to Yeah. The action. You hear your heartbeat on archery hunts every day, even though you maybe d don’t fire a shot if you take,

00:56:35:14 –> 00:56:41:04
And then if you take those rifle tactics where you’re picking out specific animals and then do it with a bow know

00:56:41:04 –> 00:56:42:23
Oh, that’s next level stuff. Yes.

00:56:42:26 –> 00:56:44:13
Oh, it’s just retarded. Love it.

00:56:45:03 –> 00:56:46:07
That’s the rush. Just

00:56:46:07 –> 00:56:57:08
Awesome. I’m gonna, I’m gonna archery hunt deer myself. I’ve got a deer picked out at like a, in one of those older deer we spoke about that hasn’t really turned into what we’d hope he’d turn into genetic. It’s

00:56:57:08 –> 00:57:00:07
Real old genetic, maybe a genetic inferior just a little bit. Yep.

00:57:00:07 –> 00:57:17:14
Kind of deer that kind of peaking out at 180 inches real heavy. Yeah. Buck just a great, great deer, but never gonna be the next level kind of deer. And we’ve all agreed that that’s the, the deer we should kill. So I’m gonna try and get him killed. And, and then I do have a, a controlled rifle elk tag in Oregon that I’ve waited eight years to get. So awesome.

00:57:18:09 –> 00:57:18:18

00:57:18:19 –> 00:57:25:00
Looking real forward to that. I haven’t killed an elk with a rifle in a long, long time, so, so that’s gonna be fantastic.

00:57:25:07 –> 00:57:48:19
Well that’s awesome. Well, is there any, any specific stories from this last year? Anything crazy that really, you know, besides, obviously we talked about your wife’s ram and, and you’ve sent us some crazy dear pictures and we actually, you know, you guys posted a picture the other day and it’s one we know about, but a dead deer that’s a giant that’s surprising come from Oregon. I mean, is there any of those that just stand out that you’d like to share with the listeners? Oh

00:57:49:17 –> 00:58:19:05
Yeah. You know, we killed one deer last year, Jason, that was, he was a a 200, 204 inch deer. And it was the craziest deer I’ve ever seen. Like I said, I, you know, I don’t have any problem admitting that I don’t have nearly the experience of some of my partners and mentors on big deer. But when we saw this deer for the first time, he had nine points on one and seven on the other crazy deer. But he had an 18 inch inside spread kind of deer. Yeah. We, we call him the ugliest 200 inch deer we’ve ever seen in our lives.

00:58:19:26 –> 00:58:22:14
Jason and I were looking at TRO camp picking one of those yesterday,

00:58:23:07 –> 00:58:23:22
Remember? Yeah.

00:58:23:23 –> 00:58:26:05
He sold, he’s 200, but like

00:58:27:13 –> 00:58:31:08
I think you could get him to 200. I’m like, oh, he’s 200, but he’s the grossest 200.

00:58:32:08 –> 00:58:36:07
He’s ugly. That’s exactly what, like, and he’s yeah, maybe 18 inside. Yeah,

00:58:36:15 –> 00:59:34:02
That’s exactly what the deer was to me. And, and, but I was just mesmerized by him. I couldn’t believe how cool he was. And, but when we looked at him, he looked really young to me. He just looked super young in his summer coat and velvet and he wasn’t overly heavy and, and we washed the deer all archery season and just, he was one of those deer. We said, let’s give that deer a couple years and see what he turns into. He might turn into a giant kind of deer. And I went up there and, and one of my partners, Todd, his wife had the rifle tag in the unit and it was the day before rifle season. And I went up to where he’d been living during archery season and we had decided if I turn the deer up, let’s kill him. If I don’t see him, it’s meant to be and we’re not gonna kill him. And I sat there and glass all evening, didn’t turn him up and right before dark, dark, of course I find him. And lo and behold I took a bunch of photos of him and when that deer went hard, horn and his cape changed over from red to gray. He looked like he aged 10 years on me. I couldn’t believe how much older he looked.

00:59:34:02 –> 00:59:36:25
Their face changes their body. Oh, it’s just a weird change.

00:59:37:02 –> 01:00:09:23
It was weird change. And you know, I, I took some photos and I sent them to some my experienced partners and buddies and said, what do you guys think? This deer looks a lot older now. And we had made the, the group decision as in, you know, every decision we make is as a group and said, let’s kill that deer in the morning. So his wife come up early in the morning and, and we get set up on this deer and he was beded up in the rim rock, I think he was seven, 720 yards and, and we killed him right there. And I walked up to the deer and the first thing I did was open his mouth up. He had one tooth in his head.

01:00:09:29 –> 01:00:11:05
Oh my gosh. Hmm.

01:00:11:07 –> 01:00:17:25
Couldn’t believe it. Absolutely crazy. He had him had him age just because we were so curious. He’s nine and a half years old.

01:00:18:06 –> 01:00:18:23
Wow. Perfect.

01:00:19:00 –> 01:00:20:24
So I don’t know how we messed that up, but,

01:00:21:16 –> 01:00:33:07
Well, it’s tough. I’ve got trail camera pics of him, you know, like you’re saying in velvet. And then I’ll get a trail camera pick of him hard horned end of October when they’re getting ready to rutt. And it is amazing the difference that they look, I could,

01:00:33:07 –> 01:01:01:13
He just had this mousy nose, I don’t know, he just didn’t grow that big blockhead, you know, and it, it fooled us. It really did it in the, in the velvet. And then when he went hard horn, he changed his look so much. I learned a lot from that experience. Learned a lot and, and we got that deer and really happy. So, you know, we killed the right deer and he was as big as he was ever gonna get. Real cool. Non-typical b with a bunch of inlines and Yeah. And so that really stood out. Last year was a fun, fun time’s, a great learning experie.

01:01:01:13 –> 01:01:10:17
It’s a big year too. 200 inch. You’re outta Oregon. They don’t every day. No. Or they don’t just because of management, but it’s not because of genetics. Oregon’s got some incredible genetics.

01:01:11:09 –> 01:01:29:12
I agree. I think we’ve got, we’ve got some great, where our private land is a lot of non-typical, you know, split kickers and kickers and inlines and you know, even drop times and, and stuff like that. We can do it, we can definitely do it in a few more years of managing this ground like we are. And I, gosh, I just think the future’s real bright. A

01:01:29:12 –> 01:01:32:02
Few more years. And Adam, and I’ll be bringing up that epic truck. You guys

01:01:32:05 –> 01:01:33:03
Will be coming to hunt with us.

01:01:33:05 –> 01:01:36:13
Yeah, we’ll be putting on an epicon up there. So yeah,

01:01:36:15 –> 01:01:40:06
We’d love to have you. That’d be a fun time. We’ve talked about having you guys up. It’d be a fun time.

01:01:40:10 –> 01:02:04:23
It would be awesome. Well, I’m, I’m jealous. I don’t mean to switch to topics again, but you’re, you’re killing stuff in about five days and we’re gonna here waiting for hunts to start and so we’re looking forward to, we got archery deer August 10th. 10th is the earliest we’re gone, but you’re getting after it here, so yeah, we wish you luck on that hunt and everything else you got going. And is there anything else you, you wanna share with us about your outfit and do we have cut?

01:02:04:29 –> 01:02:30:06
I we just really like to thank you guys for the opportunity and what you guys helped us grow tremendously. You know, I speak on behalf of everybody and, and we’ve got some fantastic clients, made some great connections because of you guys and, and your willingness and to entrust us with your clients. So we’d just like to say thank you again and we can’t wait to share with you, you know, the successes and the failures and the, the, you know, everything we got going on. So we’ll stay in close touch.

01:02:30:11 –> 01:02:33:13
Let’s just have you on again at the end of the season and you can tell us about

01:02:34:02 –> 01:02:35:01
What, what got

01:02:35:03 –> 01:02:37:08
Away and, and then what, what died.

01:02:38:09 –> 01:02:44:25
I’ll tell you all the young guy dumb moves I make and how these guys will square me away and, and help make me successful. So,

01:02:44:25 –> 01:03:13:26
Well that’s what’s gonna make you successful is, is how, you know, I mean, I don’t know if humble’s the right word, but at least you’re willing to, you know, you, you’re, you’re confident, there’s no question you’re confident, but you’re also willing to, you know, listen and understand that you’re, you’re growing in the sport and whatnot and I expect you’ll be in this for 20, 30 years and knocking down some absolute or continuing to knock down some absolute monsters and we’re happy to be a part of that with you. So we wish you the

01:03:13:26 –> 01:03:19:13
Best. Well, thank you guys. I, i sure hope so. I think the future’s bright for everybody and for all of us, so I’m really looking forward to it.

01:03:19:20 –> 01:03:19:29

01:03:19:29 –> 01:03:26:10
Calvin. Well Calvin, appreciate your time and yeah, we’ll look forward to hope for some picks within five or six days.

01:03:27:02 –> 01:03:32:14
Alright guys, we’re, we’re headed up on the hill again, so we will keep you in in the loop. Just don’t,

01:03:32:18 –> 01:03:35:01
Just don’t shoot the wrong ram. Just don’t, oh,

01:03:35:01 –> 01:03:35:23
Don’t even say that.

01:03:37:15 –> 01:03:38:13
Hey, it, it happens.

01:03:38:21 –> 01:03:41:20
That’s a bad, bad parting shot right there. That is a bad

01:03:41:27 –> 01:03:46:05
Mojo. Oh, it’s hard to get Dred up. Yeah, just ignore that with said that was Jason.

01:03:46:06 –> 01:03:48:12
That was, that had nothing to do with that. So

01:03:49:11 –> 01:03:49:18

01:03:49:21 –> 01:03:52:28
He stands out pretty well. I don’t think we’re gonna kill the wrong one. No,

01:03:52:28 –> 01:03:55:13
You’re gonna do, you’re gonna do well and we wish Brock, wish

01:03:55:13 –> 01:04:00:22
You guys luck, Brock. Yeah, if there’s anybody that can get it done with the bow up there, it’ll be him. So wish you guys the best on

01:04:00:22 –> 01:04:01:05
That. Yes. It’s so,

01:04:01:05 –> 01:04:02:04
So. Okay buddy. Hey,

01:04:02:05 –> 01:04:02:29
Thank you guys again.

01:04:02:29 –> 01:04:04:12
Appreciate everything and get back out there.

01:04:04:25 –> 01:04:05:24
You bet. Take care. All right,

01:04:05:24 –> 01:04:06:04
Talk to you later.

01:04:06:14 –> 01:04:54:23
If you draw a tag and you know you’re gonna need an outfit for your hunt, give us a call. We work with hundreds of outfitters across Western North America. We don’t just simply work with any outfitter that that calls us, that has a hunt to book or things like that. We realize our names, our reputation, and your ultimately your hunt and tag is what’s most important. We do the research, we help you find the guys that we know produce in the unit you’ve drawn a great tag in. So give us a call. Trust our experience, trust our expertise to help steer you in the right direction of guys or gals that you should consider hiring for the tag that you’ve drawn. If you don’t draw enough tags or you just simply want to use booking a hunt with an outfitter, with a guaranteed tag, whether it be a landowner tag, outfitter tag as a way, as a way to supplement your hunting schedule, give us a call on those as well.

01:04:55:10 –> 01:05:32:01
We, we help represent hunts all over the western Canadian provinces, Alaska, all the western states as well. So if you’re looking for doll sheep, stone, sheep, brown bear, black bear, deer, elk, antelope, moose, sheep, goat, everything in between, we can help you start off with a brief visit about what you’re looking for, price point, species type of hunt, horseback, backpack, all the different variables that go into that. Glad to help you out. We got Jeff, John, Jason Carter, myself, Adam Bronson all willing to help a visit with you about that. To help you fill up your hunting schedule with, with the type of hunts that you got that you’re looking forward maybe that you can’t just draw.