EP 51: Giant Bulls, Rams, and Social Media! With Brendan Burns, Jason Carter, and Adam Bronson

The bull is in there bugling, going crazy, and I'll always be proud of that deer, just like a lot of the bigger deer that I've killed later in my life. I smoked him, just smashed him. He ran about 50 yards and died. It was anything to do with Western big game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody, Adam Bronson and Jason Carter here doing another Epic Outdoors podcast sponsored by Under Armour. We appreciate those guys and all that they do, and they sponsor everything we're doing here at Epic Outdoors, so thanks to Under Armour. Today we've got an awesome guest, somebody that Adam and I have known for a long, long time, have a bunch of respect for. He's killed a lot of things. Anyway, we've got Brendan Burns with QU on the phone with us. How you doing, Brendan? I'm doing well. How you guys doing today? Doing good. Pretty good. You're from the world headquarters in Bozeman, the Bozeman chapter of QU, I guess, right? Yeah, I've got a nice little office here. It's a pretty nasty day here in Bozeman. It's really ugly, but yeah, it's a pretty nice place to have an office, for sure. You bet.

Before we get cranking too much, I do want to let our listeners know, I mean, it's hard to toot your own horn, but Brendan, I mean, we've known you to kill giant elk and done it for years and years and years on general tags there in Montana, and of course, I don't know how many sheep you've killed, but it's been a bunch, and some with a bow as well, and so we'll get into some of that, but just want to let everybody know, you know, some of your credentials and some of the different things you've done. I mean, you consider yourself like an elk, sheep, nut? Is that pretty much described, Brendan Burns? Yeah, I prefer to hunt elk as sheep. I mean, I'd hunt sheep more the more opportunities I had, but I've always, elk's always been my thing. I mean, I think you're drawn to what you're good at or have success at, and, you know,

those are my favorite things to do, probably from where I grew up, and you guys are mule deer guys, you grew up in mule deer country, I, you know, this is elk country, so, yeah, I mean, I prefer to, those are what I spend the majority of my time on. I've, you know, hunted extensively in Alaska and all over, but those are definitely my favorite for sure. Well, talk to us a little bit about, you know, just growing up. Where did you grow up? How did you get started in hunting? Was it something that you've always done, or just give us a little background into who you are? Yeah, I grew up in Livingston, Montana, and, yeah, hunting has just always been a part of my life. My dad got me into it super young, and it's just, you know, there's a few things that you just become obsessed with, and I was into it at a super young age.

I mean, the joke in my family, my mom used to say when I was a little kid, I'd save my money to buy Bowhunter Magazine or whatever, and she was always like, wow, don't worry. He'll grow out of it, and it's still the joke today. It's like, yeah, he'll grow out of it. So, yeah, I just grew up in an area with a lot of opportunity. You know, great parents that gave me tons of opportunity to do what I wanted to do and hunted a lot with my dad. Just, you know, again, just really love the sport, and it's been my favorite thing since I was little, so I really don't know much else. Well, yeah, you know, we've known you for probably 15 years or so, it feels like, and, you know, in that 15 years, it feels like you've killed everything, and I know you've killed a lot prior to us knowing you, and you killed some of your first giant bulls before we really got to know you.

But before you got to that, before we dive into maybe just elk hunting and all that, we know you had, you know, you did have some other passions throughout your teenage years and college years, you're a competitive wrestler and whatnot. Talk to us a little bit about, you know, we're not wrestlers. I'm a tall, gangly dude, so I do not have a body to wrestle, nor do, you know, would I have been good at it had I had a body to do it, I'm sure. But I know you're pretty accomplished when it comes to the world of wrestling, both in high school and collegiately. So, tell us a little bit about that, where that took you. Yeah, I was a high school and college wrestler. That was kind of really the only other thing I did growing up, and yeah, I was a pretty good high school wrestler. Got recruited to quite a few schools, ended up wrestling at Ohio State University in college,

and then finished up my career in a small school in Montana. You know, had a good high school, college career, was a couple-time All-American high school, one time in college. Yeah, it was kind of my second passion. Definitely didn't love it as much as hunting, but it was a great sport to grow up in, and it really translates well into hunting. I mean, wrestling is one of those sports that when it's over, it's over. I mean, you don't hear about intramural wrestling, or it's not really something you can transition to, but being an individual sport and being a high-pressure sport where really it all falls on you is real comparable to the same thing that hunting is. I mean, you need training partners, and you need people's help and all that stuff, but at the end of the day, it really all falls on you, and I feel it's definitely helped me in hunting for sure. A lot of parallels.

What weight did you, and obviously varied as you got from, you know, a freshman in high school to maybe college, but what weights were you at back in the day? Oh, I wasn't the biggest dude ever, but I was going to say, you're pretty heavy on you. Was that back in the, did they have the 90, would they have the 98 weight back then? I remember in high school, I played basketball, but I remember they used to have a 98. I wasn't that small. There were some real little guys, but no, I was a 157 pounder in college. Oh, there you go. Geez. Yeah. So, pretty, yeah, it was good. Yeah. I always. It's a fun, it's a good sport. It's a tough sport. It teaches you a lot of, both in business and in, you know, in hunting, it translates very well. It's a tough sport. I mean, you don't have a lot of discipline. Yeah. Yeah. You, you got to be able to grind it, uh, to, to do it.

So it's a, it's, I encourage anybody to put their kids in it. That's for sure. I've always been intrigued and scratched my head a little bit about the nice round numbers of wrestling weights, 98, 157. Yeah. I mean, we're, I mean, what about 155 or 160? Yeah. Where do those guys fit in? Yeah. Where, I mean, like why the 157s? Is there anything behind that? I'm not a wrestler, so I'm ignorant. So. Well, they actually used to be a lot more rounded. And then, uh, when I actually, when I was a freshman in college, they bumped everybody up. They went from 24 hour wins to one hour before wins, which kind of changed the whole game. And so they basically. Gave you two pounds basically. Oh, you know, like seven. Yeah. It was a huge, huge difference. And so it changed, changed a lot. Seven pounds. Wow. Killing some freaking 400 inch bulls. It doesn't compare, does it? Nah. Yeah.

I mean, I, it's always been my number one passion for sure is, uh, is, uh, I mean, wrestling was great and it's fun to win and, uh, yeah, it's great, but yeah, the hunting, uh, I, I prefer a chase book, big bull. That's, that's for sure. And it translates into, you know, a lot better into life. I mean, it's, it's funny. I mean, wrestlers, you're either, you're either going to the Olympics or you're going to be a coach or, but it really is not a sport. I mean, Adam, I'm sure you can roll down to the gym and still grab that. Yeah. There's no pick. I can pick up basketball games. There's no pick up old man wrestling tournaments. You just don't see them around. And even, and even at basketball, you're worried about an ankle. Oh, yeah. I'm worried about blowing my Achilles and my knee. It's just, it's a ticking time bomb.

I've quit playing for about three years because I'm scared to death that I'm not going to be able to hunt sheep because I'm going to be on a year rehab of an Achilles or something blowing. So, yeah. So speaking of giant bulls, when did you, so you, you, you're cranking out hunting. When did the trophy hunting really kick in for you or, you know, chasing after these giants? Yeah. When did you kill your first giant or what? Give us kind of a rough timeline. Well, I think it's a progression. I mean, I, I, I was just after any elk for a long time. I mean, I'm, I'm a little about my background. My dad was injured in a horse accident when I was two years old. So my dad was in a wheelchair since I was two. So I am basically self-taught that my dad and I hunted together and he basically taught me everything that, um, that he could.

But at the end of the day, you know, when you, when it goes ahead into the mountains, um, hunting elk, he couldn't go with me. And, and in, in hindsight, it was actually, uh, a blessing for me because, you know, that, that old saying of, you know, give a man a fish, uh, you'll feed him for a day. Teach a man a fish. You'll feed him for a lifetime. That kind of applied to me. No one that really ever took me elk hunting. So my dad showed me from an early age, how to read maps and how to look at country and everything he could do. That's awesome. Everything I need to do to find elk, uh, versus, I mean, you, you know, guys that, you know, their dad took them elk hunting. This was their elk hunting spot and they're still on those spots today. Yeah, sure. They just like, that's where we go elk hunting. That, that wasn't how I grew up.

It was, uh, my dad's driving me to the trailhead and dropped me off and, you know, I'd get back at night and he'd pick me up and we'd, uh, talk about what we saw and, and, uh, make a, make a game plan for the next time. So it was, you know, pretty self-taught. A little bit of a sink or swim. Yeah. A sink or swim. Yeah. And I go out there and I'll see it dark. And you made, you were the architect of every, every step that day on the hill, basically by yourself. Yeah. And so, uh, it took me a long time to kill a, kill a bull with my bow. And, um. A long time meaning, meaning years or what do we, what do you think? Yeah. Four years. Okay. Four years. So it was like your goal. Like I'm going to kill, I'm going to kill a bull with, uh, with my bow. And, and that was kind of your goal. That was one of your first goals. Any elk that would stand in front of me at that point in time. Okay. Yeah.

Yeah. Exactly. Like the all-star. Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. And, and then, you know, I got a, got a, got a pretty good one. Um, my first one was just that, you know, it's a little six point. And, uh, yeah, I just always looked up to guys that, that were killing. But it always seemed kind of unachievable. Like, you know, guys got elk, but man, the guys that got, you know, good bulls and consistent were, they were fewer and further between back then. I mean, in the early nineties, I mean, a guy that killed a six point bull every year, that, that was. That was a big deal. Oh yeah. Yeah. There was way less elk than there are now. It was a way, you know, I know everybody thinks it was better. Well, and back then the goal was a six point. Like even my dad was clear back in the eighties, late eighties, early nineties. It was just a six point.

It wasn't score wise or this or that, or it was just straight up six.

Yeah. Just to get a, you know, and just to get a bull. I mean, it's really good days now. There's just a lot more elk. And, um, yeah. So, um, I killed my first really good bull with a bow. It was like three 20 when I was, uh, when I was 18. What year roughly are we talking? Uh, 96, maybe. Okay. 1996. So mid nineties, you're, you're, you're starting to kill. Yep. Yep. And then, and then college, um, I didn't get to elk hunt much in college. I would, I would come back in, in, uh, early September when I had a little bit of time. I usually had a couple of days, but it, it really lit the fire in me. Like I really appreciated it more after, you know, when you're gone for college, this wasn't practical when you're wrestling in college. I mean, that's a full-time job. That's your life. Um, and then when I ended up coming back to Montana, um, that was at, in, in 2000 was,

um, was the year that I killed that great big bull. You'd been like penned up for three, four years without basically. And you're like, I'm ready to go now. And what were you studying? Like, what was, what were you going out in or what was your initial goal? You know, besides wrestling off obviously. You mean in college? Yeah. Degree wise. Yeah. Oh, I got a business degree. Yeah. I went into business. Okay. Okay. And so year 2000, you say, you know, I was your first really big bull. Like, tell us about that bull. Like, what was he? How did it happen? Did you find him first or did you find him the day you killed him or how did it all work? Yeah, it was pretty, it was pretty interesting. I, uh, I, I finished up school after I left Ohio state. I finished up school, a small school in Montana. It was kind of the only place that had wrestling in Montana.

And that was the last year that I wrestled in college. And there was a small mountain range. It's actually well known now. And it's probably the toughest, best known area to draw in Montana. When I moved back, there was a small mountain range just out of the, out of, out of the college there. And, uh, I, I drew a tag in 2000. I think it was either 13 guys or 15 guys applied for 15 tags. Man. How times have changed. To draw in Montana. Oh yeah. It's crazy. Cause I, I, I literally, it's like Will Chamberlain's thousand point game. I've literally run into 500 guys that say they've been applying for the area since the beginning. I was like, well, there was only 15 of us in the beginning. You know, there was like, oh yeah, I knew about that. But anyways, it was basically kind of an emerging mountain range that had just gotten out. They, they had, they had just opened the season.

And, and yeah, I was out there coyote hunting in the winter time and had come across the elk and I started doing some more investigating and looking around and I, I drew that permit and, uh, I got a tip about a great big bull. I had no idea how big it was. I don't think anybody did. Um, and yeah, I just went out there and got pretty lucky first couple of days I was out there. I turned him up and I wasn't the most skilled at the time. I didn't know it, but, uh, I basically did just, just played my cards pretty smart at the time and ended up, uh, ended up getting an opportunity and killing this, this giant bull that everybody had been at, at scene. And, uh, yeah, that kind of started me down a pretty cool path. And it's, it's, you know, it was the state it's, it's still the largest non-typical ever kill with a bull in Montana. It's a 425 grows for 10 net.

Um, 20, I got the longest G three times in history. They're 31 inches long. Just a massive. Come on. In history of Montana or history. I don't know. That feels like the longest I've heard of. Wow. Yeah. Pretty nice bull, Brennan. You probably just probably, you know, you, I don't know if you're ever going to kill them bigger than that, but if there's somebody that could, it would be you got that drive. Yeah. I don't know that you can set a goal to kill something. I mean, that's like the Shaquille O'Neal of elk. And like I said, at the time, I, you know, I'm just glad that I didn't, uh, I'm glad I didn't screw it up. Um, I could be that guy. That's. Uh, sitting at the end of the bar going, I swear to God. I had 30 years for that bull.

What, uh, so yeah. Did it, I mean, was it just happened? Like. No, I, I watched him. Um, I, I found the bull. He had, uh, he had 11 cows with him and I found the bull and I, I, the wind was wrong. And I, you know, against everything that I normally would have done, I, I actually stayed away from him until I had a good opportunity to get close to him. I still hunted up on him. And, uh, he was in this little bull with, with the cows and I had counted the cows up, uh, which turned out to be, you know, one of the smarter things I'd done on that hunt. And, and, uh, the cows started feeding out of this little, little brush patch and I counted them up and then 11 cows came out and fed over the hill and the bull was in there bugling, going crazy. And I, uh, I, I basically, he was, I caught him at a weak moment. He was in a frenzy. As you've seen him occasionally.

And I basically ran right up to him to 12 yards and, um, I was six yards from when I ran up to him and, and, and he rolled up on it. He was laying on the ground, rolling around and, and, uh, I just got ready and he stood up. I let him walk out. I, uh, shot him at 12 yards and, uh, didn't make the greatest shot on him in the world. But even I could maybe hit that one. Yeah. I made it, I made it, I made it okay. I made a, made a, a good enough shot on him and then I'm finding him the next morning. Oh, right. Yeah. Just one of those things where right place at the right time. And, uh, you know, you get a few of those opportunities in life where you just, you know, for whatever reason, I didn't, I didn't have that type of skill set at the time, but, but made it happen and, uh, and, and, and killed him and just set me on a pretty cool path. Oh, yeah.

It was, you can look at something, you know, killing a giant bull like that is like, oh man, you're never going to repeat it or, you know, like I looked at it to me, I looked at it like, I don't want to be a one hit wonder. I want to, it lit a fire to do it again. Yeah. It really did. I was just like, man, you see guys kill one great big thing and then never heard from again. And that was, you know, more terrifying, terrifying really than, than, than anything. Like, man, I, I, you know, I want to do that again. Well, and then there's the opposite. They kill one and you never, you do never hear from you or you hear about them every day. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's, that's, yeah. No, that definitely happens quite a bit nowadays. That's for sure. But yeah. Yeah. Don't get the, don't get the tattoo. That's for sure. That's right. Yeah.

But, but yeah, it was just a, it was a, you obviously, you know, you look at it, you're in the right place at the right time. Something amazing happens and that feeling and, and killing a giant bull like that and doing everything right. Like that, that was, you know, I wanted to do that more. Pretty awesome. Yeah. Do you have buck fever? Did you have buck fever? Like, could it do, I mean, just freaked out or was it just you're in kill mode? You go up and you slam him and then it kind of sets in.

No, I knew what it was when I was hunting. I knew, I mean, when I killed him, I thought it was the, I mean, I knew it was giant. I actually, you know, after I found him, I thought it was, you know, the new world record. It ended up being number three at the time in the world, but it was, I knew what it was. And I just, you know, again, it kind of boils down, I don't know whether it's wrestling or not, but being able to focus under pressure, you know what I mean? Like that was more pressure than I probably should have been able to handle. But, you know, I mean, again, you gotta, you gotta just breathe and make it happen. I mean. Do you think now, that's a question I have. I mean, do you think if you had that same, this, that was your, that was your first giant and biggest bull, do you think now, 20 years or whatever that's been, maybe not quite, would you be more nervous now?

You find a bull like that and get in that same position, you think you'd be more nervous now or do you've killed several more, I'm going to call anything 380 plus in that same league, even though a 425 is in a different league all into itself. But in some ways I find myself, the more I've been around a big deer or something like that, the more nervous I get because I just, you love something so much, you want it even more, you know, you put one on the ground, it doesn't just make it easier the next time, I guess is what I'm trying to say. Would you think you'd be more nervous in that same situation today versus a 22 year old, you know, even though you were pretty, you know, you had your college background, you discussed that, would you be more nervous now, do you think, in that same bull 425 situation?

I don't know, I hope to get in that situation again, I guess we'll see, but I think it boils down to, you know, I was hunting with Randy Ulmer in 2004 and I actually missed a really nice bull with my bow and I was walking through this place, you know, picking me up and we were driving out and I remember asking him, I said, you know, what do you think the difference is, because I was pretty bummed out, I missed a, it's actually one of the first straight 7x7s I ever got a chance at, I just made a mental area, I thought he was at, cows crossed me at 20 and he walked out at, oh actually the cows walked out at 40 and I ranged him at 40 and then the bull ran halfway between me and them and stood there and I freaking shot over his back and I was just bummed out that I had made that kind of an error on a bull that I really wanted and I asked him, I was like, you know, what's the

difference, you know, that guy's stone cold and he's like, the last 10 seconds and he's like, you know, it's, everybody has the same reaction, you want to just jump out of your skin, you want to screw it up, like, can you contain that in the last 10 seconds? I've always kept that with me and, and the other thing about killing a giant bull like, like the one I killed back in 2000 is, I don't look at it like elk of a lifetime anymore, I mean, I look at every opportunity as, you know, I probably killed the biggest elk I'm ever going to hunt, it's not like I'm never going to get another chance, it's not like, you know, I got the biggest one I'm probably ever going to hunt, I don't look at it like this is a once in a lifetime opportunity, I look at, you know, this is another great opportunity if I execute right now, and I'm not saying I haven't messed up or missed big bulls because

I have, but I don't look at it, I definitely don't beat myself up when stuff doesn't go right, I just go, hey, on to the next one, I have a super short memory, and when it goes really well, you just, you just try and be contained and, and, and be cool in the moment, and, and, you know, it'll work out because, you know, if you don't, it won't work out, I mean, if you, if you let it go to the edge. Yeah, the hardest thing about some of that stuff nowadays is just like these tags are hard to come by, the, of course, you're, and we'll get into some of that, you're, you're making it happen in places you can, you can hunt every year as well, but these tags are so hard to come by nowadays, and, and we do want it to happen so bad, and you end up putting two or three months or whatever in on a particular animal, and then it comes down to the last 10 seconds, it feels like,

to me, that those last 10 seconds are, you know, the pressures mounted so much more. Back in 2000, you know, it's not like you were, you weren't, quote, Brendan Burns, everybody knows you as a killer now, and so there just feels like every, it's an expectation that no matter what, you're going to be successful, and, and when, you know, when in reality, stuff happens to you too, and excitement sets in, or the wind changes, or whatever, but, but everybody just expects a lot more out of you now too, and so just feels like, I don't know, feels like there'd be a little more pressure there. Yeah, and, you know, you got to just look at it, none of that stuff's really real, I mean, at the end of the day, I like hunting out, because it's the same challenge it was 18 years ago, every single big bull I chase, they got us, you know, I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm getting better,

but they're still way better than me, I still got to do a lot of things right to get them killed, and, you know, it's, it's one of those things, I don't think I feel the pressure as much on that level, I'm, I'm disappointed when stuff doesn't work out, but they don't, it, it's, it's more of the challenge than, I guess, maybe the, the, the elk used to mean more than it does now to me, I mean, they're all just hanging upside down in my garage, it's not like I'm obsessed with, you know, the giant racks or anything like that, I do it for the challenge, I do it because not a lot of guys can do it, and I just, I really enjoy, you know, the fact that I can chase these big bulls, and I, you know, it never gets easy, the elk I'm hunting this year doesn't care what I've killed in the past, they're always are the same exact challenge, especially big old bulls,

and I don't think people realize, you know, like, I mean, until an elk hits six, five or six, they're not even that smart, I mean, you're, I mean, these great, big, huge bulls, everybody can say, oh, I could kill this, I could kill that, like, they're a different animal, I mean, they are just a different animal, they have, they have different habits, they've seen every trick in the book, they're, they're not dumb, so to, to hunt those kind of things, you gotta be as sharp as you can be every single time, and that's why I enjoy it, is, you know, it's just like you, Jason, with the big mule deer, you know, 140 inch, you know, three-year-old, three-year-old mule deer, I mean, I'm not a mule deer expert, but they don't seem that smart, and those great big bucks you guys are killing, they're on a different level, I mean, there, there's some of them that are, you know,

I mean, we, we've both hunted animals that, you know, seem to be self-aware, you know, that, that know you're after, and that makes it even tougher. Yeah, well, there's, there, you, yeah, there's no question you're hunting a different animal, it's almost a different species, I mean, it's one thing to, to shoot a, you know, two-and-a-half, three-and-a-half-year-old deer, it's another thing to shoot a six-and-a-half to nine-year-old deer, and same thing with these bulls, like you're saying, you made a mention, I want to go back to these upside down on a rack, you know, just, your 425-inch bull isn't upside down on a rack, is it? No, no, it's, it stays in downtown bows, and I got it. All right, all right, all right, all right. Since I killed it, but there's 10 other great big ones that are just hanging in the ground, you know, I mean, you know,

you can't fit elk in a house. What are you going to do with all of them? And that's what I'm, I'm at, where I'm at with some of these deer, too, mostly my wife's at that point, she's just disgusted if I take another one to the taxidermist, so anyway, but, but I remind her that they built the house, so. Yeah. The builder built the house. I look at a lot of these, you know, if I mounted every, you know, my, it used to be like, I'm going to mount every bull over 350, and, and, you know, I'm glad I didn't, because now, you know, I'll be able to sort through them all, and I'm going to build a trophy room here coming up, but, you know, at the end of the day, it's cool, and it's a reminder of what you did, but, you know, it's not that important to stare at that stuff, and I look at taxidermy anymore, you know, I got a bunch of sheep to get done, I think

I got seven rams in the freezer right now, and, um, I've got a couple mounted is all, but I, I, I look at taxidermy anymore, and it's like, I can, I can, I can get that stuff mounted and, and, and stare at stuff I've already done, or I can save that money, and I can go do more cool shit. Yeah. That's how I look at it, you know, I mean. Well, and you are, I mean, just what you're saying is what we found with you, like, like your Instagram, there's pretty much no posts on there, but yet you could load it up with giant bulls, and, and, uh, rams, and all of these crazy experiences, and sometimes I wish you would, because I think it, it's good for business, it's good for QU, it's good for you, you know, in business-wise, but, you know, yeah, but this is my hunting, and I do it for me, I don't do it

for Instagram, I don't do it for the glory of the noriety, although, you know, it's hard not to be noticed when you're killing the kind of bulls you are year after year. Oh, yeah, I mean, at some point, I may throw a couple pictures up there or something, but I just, I don't know. Yeah, let's, yeah. Give me your password. Just tag us, we'd like to, we'd like to see the first. Or give me your password, we'll, we'll throw some posts up there of you. Oh, yeah. No, I mean, it's one of those things. Get something good from your wife, or from, how about from Harrison, some camp when you're asleep at camp or something with your mouth, a quarter in the bag. In your mouth open, drooling in a camp chair or something with Harrison one day. That'll be your first one. I'm going to post a couple of cat photos, like house cat photos or

something funny. Yeah, you patting your head, we just decided to make this account, you know, me and Fluffy here enjoying the Bozeman winter air. Yeah, I mean, honestly, it just boils down to, I don't have the time to manage, you know, like, I mean, yeah, that's fine and everything, but at the end of the day, you know, like, this, this, this job is, it's a lot of work. I mean, I think people, you could look at it and go, ah, that's amazing. And it is amazing. It's a, it's an amazing job. Just like what we do. We love what we do, but it is a lot of work. I mean, it looks way better from the outside. No, no question. You know, it, it, you know, they don't, they don't give you a paycheck because it's fine. Um, well, that's what we find you. They don't pay you to wet a line. That's what Adam and I always say. They don't just pay you to wet a line to hunt fish. Like

that just doesn't, you know, this is office work. You earn everything we get. Yep. Well, and maybe transition to that, take a brief segue from just elk. We'll get right back to that. Some of the other bulls and obviously sheep, but you mentioned your job. So let's talk about that. Your role within QU, you know, we've known you from the very, very start, but for everybody else, tell us how you became affiliated with, with Jason and QU and what's your role. Really? I mean, it's not changed in terms of what you do, but obviously it's, it's grown a lot since QU has grown. So. Well, and we remember you guys coming down and visiting us clear at the office back when. Yeah. Was that like December of 2010 or something like that? Yeah. Yeah. Sounds about right. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. So, um, I knew Jason from his

former company and we were, we were buddies and, uh, and I had helped him at that company with some designing stuff and all that. And I was, you know, again, just, just kind of doing my thing. And then, uh, when, when he was starting to you, he reached out to me and, and I was, uh, I was building super high end houses off the power grid. It was kind of what I was doing at the time. And I was kind of over it, you know, the, the, the crash had just happened and, you know, construction was not as good as it had been in the past. And, uh, he reached out to me and asked me if I want to be a part of, uh, to you. And it was pretty, pretty no brainer for me. Just perfect timing. Yeah. Yeah. And just some other thing. I mean, you know, obviously Jason is a super smart guy. And when he explained the consumer direct model

and showed me a carbon fiber backpack frame, I was like, Whoa, you know, like you don't get a lot of times where somebody invites you to be a part of a startup, um, that, you know, is going to be successful. And so, you know, that was a no brainer for me. And, um, yeah, my role in the company is, it's changed a bunch. I mean, I was the first employee, first person he hired. Um, so, you know, I ran that, you end up doing lots of different things. It's like what you guys do. I mean, you empty the trash, you, uh, if you do whatever you need to do, but, uh, I run a guide and outfitters program. Um, I do, I do a lot of the development stuff. Um, I don't do all of it. Obviously we have a full time development guys in the office. Um, but I, I, I test a lot of our stuff. I, I obviously give input on a lot of stuff that, that what I want to

see us building, which is, which is really cool to see how big our line has got. Um, I do, uh, a lot of the industry relations and, uh, and kind of oversee, um, just give the green light on, on a lot of stuff that we're doing. I mean, authenticity is very important to you. I mean, if you don't, we don't do anything that's fake, we don't, you know, we want to make sure all our stuff's tested. We want to make sure that it all makes sense and it's translated well to, uh, to, to the consumer. And then I do a lot of advising hunters. I mean, when, when somebody calls up and they have a really difficult question, my phone rings and it's whether it's helping guys out with, uh, with gear for the next son or advise them where to, where to book their next cheap on or, or, you know, give them realistic expectations on, on what they should be looking

at. Or, uh, you know, it's, it's, it's a, that's probably what I enjoy the most out of the job is interacting with our, with our customers. I mean, I've got so many really good friends I've developed that, that started as customers at Kuyu that it's, uh, it's really, really cool. So it's fun. And then, you know, an industry guys like yourself, I mean, we, I think we came down there, I think it was December of 2010 and we showed you the full, the full line, which consisted of five pieces in a backpack, which was, uh, you know, it was pretty amazing to look back on, but it was, uh, it was cool. I have some of those pieces and, and, and I know you've given me crap when you see me in pictures with some of the first, you know, bias pattern would look different back then. You've given me crap and you're like, Bronson, why you still got that old stuff? I'm like, dude,

I remember you got that, you got that spin drift from like 2010. Oh, I've still got the brown spin. Yeah. And that, you know, I wore just, I don't know, when you go hunt and you throw a bunch of gear in and like when you're gone for a week or 10 days, you know, you're pulling stuff out. And I remember the day I killed my bear a couple of years ago, I had the original, my original Merino. I don't remember which weight it was, but it's, that's a lighter color. And I remember you gave me crap. I'm like, why are you wearing that old stuff? And I'm like, dude, I don't know just what I had. It's not wore out. It works great. And, uh, anyway, yeah, that was the 2000 or the, whatever you call it, prototype. Well, the downside of making good products is they don't wear out, Burnsy. Yeah. They keep it around forever. So, so yeah, that's, that's, that's what my job is. And,

uh, that's full time. And, and I've got an office here in Bozeman. Um, the main office is down in California, but I've got an office here in Bozeman. So it works out really good. Is it just you up there or, or you got another, you know, got somebody that works with you or just me up here. We have, we have, uh, our, our supply chain guy, Jason Witteman, uh, works for a full time for the company. He lives in Missoula, but it's just me here in Bozeman. And then, you know, with me, with technology nowadays, I mean, uh, my assistant at the office, I literally push one number and her phone rings and we talk and it's like me being in another office. Um, so it works, works really good. And, you know, I actually get way more done. Keep your residency in Montana. Yeah. You maintain Montana hunting residency. That's a big deal. Instead of California.

You're able to hunt and scout and crush these big giant bulls year after year. Yeah. So, so yeah, moving into that, I guess that, you know, as far as you're, it's you, you've had your head in the sand if you're in the hunting industry and not noticed where you guys have come in the last, I guess we'll just say seven years. It's been as rapid a rise as a lot of, a lot of outdoor industries. I mean, you can't, you can't really go from nothing literally to where you have without a lot of work and a lot of innovation, a lot of great products. And so you guys have, you guys have stormed on the scene, so to speak. And I, and obviously you're not, it's not like you're arrived and aren't, aren't still thinking about new things. And so we'll, uh, I'm sure continue to see awesome products from you guys in the, in the future. Do you still do the guide and outfitter program mostly, or is it,

I mean, you've probably got many hats like you were saying, but. Yeah. Yeah. You wear a bunch of different hats, but that's, that's my, one of my main gigs is, uh, is the guide and outfitter program and then, you know, helping out with everything else you need to. I mean, um, yeah, you wear a lot of different hats and we got a great team down there. We have, you know, obviously Jason leading the whole deal, but we have grown from two people to three people that, I mean, I think we got about 37 people now and just a, just a great team of people, whether it's customer service or development or, you know, IT or anything else we've got, um, just everybody is doing their job, which is really cool to see. It's been cool to watch, to, to watch the growth, to be on the inside. And, uh, yeah, it's just been, it's been a great ride and it's continuing. I just got back. I was down there for a week.

We had our company Christmas party and, uh, and spent a week looking at new development stuff for 2018, 2019 stuff that we got coming out. It's, it's, uh, I saw pictures of you hunting ducks. You weren't doing all that work that you're talking about. I did shoot a couple of ducks. I had a buck out there. We, we, we decoyed them all in. And then there was a, there was a group of mallards landed about 80 yards away. And I told them, I said, I gotta go spot. Spawn stock one. Spawn stock. With a bow and a flu flu? Or did you use a shotgun? No, it was a shotgun. Did you even, did you even let them fly up off the water? Did you just crush them right on the water? No, he got, he got me there. Yeah, he got me there. Just barely. All right. All right. Those were still tough. No, no, it was pretty fun. That's awesome. Well, cool. We'll talk,

tell us a little bit more, like maybe tell us about the one of your, besides the giant, maybe, you know, I know a lot of bulls in Montana and other states and Wyoming, you hunt in Arizona. Like, is there a particular story or something that, you know, what you've learned from some of these other bulls or, you know, tell us a little bit more about, you know, some of these giants you've killed. Yeah. I mean, you learn, you learn different. I mean, I, it's hard to put your finger on what's the favorite one. I mean, I can, I have a couple that, you know, where I've learned a bunch or, or implemented something that I didn't, you know, it wasn't in my arsenal before and was able to kill, you know, I killed that 395 street six point in 2008, that probably the sneakiest stock I've ever pulled in my life. I mean, I basically,

you know, crawled about 150 yards and couldn't look up over 12 inches and slid right in on them and ended up killing them. I, you know, that, that one is one that sticks in my mind. You know, that the size is not the biggest deal. It's more of the, I really love hunting bulls that I'm after that, that, you know, one bull, just like deer deer. Yeah. You're hunting one, you're hunting an elk, not you're, you're not elk hunting. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I found a big bull this fall that, uh, found him early and I just said, that's the bull I'm going to kill. And, and, uh, or, or not, I mean, and, and spent the whole time on one individual bull. And it was, you know, it's just, I, that's what I really enjoy. I enjoy that challenge of, I don't feel like there's a lot of element of luck when you pick one bull

out and you focus totally on that bull and, and, and you can get them killed. I feel like, yeah, there's some luck involved and things have to go your way, but you put, you know, you have to do a lot of things right to make that opportunity happen. Um, and they're all different. I mean, I, you know, um, you know, some, some are big, some are, are, you know, I'm, I'm always trying to kill the biggest bull I can find. And that's really all you can do. Um, you know, they're not always going to be mega giants, but, um, yeah, you feel, I feel like, uh, hunting individual bulls is, it's just more fun for me. It's, it's cool to just to see if you can do it, you know, for no other reason than, uh, you know, that's my goal. And, you know, I'm a goal type guy and like, that's, that's the boy I want. I mean, for instance, this fall, I hunted a bull.

That's probably the first time I've hunted a really giant bull. That was a non-dominant bull. Um, there was a, a bull that was probably about the same size as him. And I decided this one was the one I was going to go after. And the boy I hunted this fall was, was non-dominant. He was, the other bull ran him around. He did not like being around other elk. He wasn't particularly aggressive. He would kind of steal a cow and disappear here and there, but he was the biggest elk in the area, but he didn't really know it. Um, and he was a middle-aged bull, not super old, but not a young bull. Um, and so that was a unique opportunity. I lost him for seven days at one point in time and, you know, ended up, uh, you know, finally 11 days after I found him, I got, I got an opportunity to kill him and got him, you know? And so it's, that's, that's one of those things

where the constant changing and challenge that it allows me to, you know, increase my skillset. And that was another, you know, feather in my cap with something that I'd never done before. And then all of a sudden you get them killed and you're like, okay, I got that, I got that tucked in. I can use that on another one. When I, when I turn up another elk, that's got those kinds of elk characteristics that I'm hunting on that bull. And, you know, each one is different. I, I, uh, yeah, I mean the Wyoming bull was, that was really cool. And I, I, I've only had two rifle, two elk tags that weren't in rifles or in both season in 20 years. And that one, I mean, you, you guys, it's funny. I've had a couple of guys say, I don't really believe that somebody gave you a governor's tag. And I was like, and you guys both know Jeremy. We believe it. I know how, how busy he can get.

That actually happened. I mean, he called me up and said, Hey, I, I don't have time to hunt this tag. It was in early November and, uh, and said, Hey, I don't have time to hunt this tag. Do you want this? And it was the Wyoming, one of the Wyoming governor's tags. So it's like, that's a funny story that, yeah, man, I'll, I'll take that. Let me think about it. Yes. All the bunch of guys that, that knew the area and knew the state and went down there and hunted in the late season, which is, which is a big challenge. Um, they're a totally different animal that time of year. And so when I had heard about this great big bull that a bunch of guys had seen and nobody had really went after, which was really odd to me, but, um, yeah, I went down there and spent some time in the late season and ended up turning up

this great big bull and killed him over, killed him with a rifle. Um, you know, it's really still gratifying. I mean, great big bull. Yeah. So whether it's a bull or a gun, it doesn't matter. It goes back to that teach a man to fish kind of theory you talked about earlier is you can, it's not like you're just doing it at home. Like you go to Arizona, you're hunting in Wyoming or whatever elk or elk. And once you, you've learned how to hunt them as well as you have, you know, you can implement those tactics and you can be successful when a guy gives you a tag five days before you go hunting. Yeah. And part of it's, part of it's knowing the right guys to call and asking for the right help. I mean, I, I'm not an expert in Wyoming, but I called some guys that were, we put a good plan together and then, you know,

I have a lot of help from some, some local guys that, uh, that knew what they were doing. And part of it is, you know, knowing when to ask for some help and, uh, yeah, it was cool. And it's another, you know, great big bull, which is, which is always awesome. I mean, it was the biggest elk killed in Wyoming that year. Um, and you can do it in the late season, uh, when, you know, that's, that's probably one of the bigger challenges. Um, for me, I mean, like elk in the rut, you know, they're there, you can find them. They, they have things that make them vulnerable. Yeah. I mean, those late season bulls, when they pull in and they're solo and they're just living in a tiny little patch of something like, man, they're pretty damn hard to kill. That's why then, that's why nobody was hunting. He's probably, he was in thick trees or just tough, you know, didn't, didn't have the

confidence they could find him. Yeah. That's awesome. And then, so, I mean, the bull you killed this year to back up a little bit, I know you got him scored the other day and we're talking about score only because it gives some people a reference. Like you, you've killed some giants and we've kind of brushed over a couple, another 395, you know, official six and all that. So I know this bull this year is really awesome looking straight six. If I remember, um, kind of a long time. Yeah. He's got two little, two little shark people on the back of his left main beam. Yeah. Like a low 380s, 375 net, I guess you 374 and 7 8ths, right? It's 374 and 7 8ths net. 374 and 7 8ths net. Yeah. So 1, 1 8th a little bit shy. He's 34 wide. He's not super wide. Um, but he's, uh, yeah, a cool bull was basically, uh, uh, about what I thought he was. So that was, you know, another

great big bull. Um, those, those kinds of bulls don't come along that often. I haven't killed a bull in that caliber since 2013. So, uh, some other night bulls, but those, they just, you just don't see enough of them. I mean, you gotta make, you gotta make hay while the sun shines, those opportunities don't. Well, and that same thing with these deer, you know, it's not like we're killing them every single year or whatever. Yeah. That's one thing I wanted to say is you, you said something, Hey, I lost him for seven days. Like, and you breezed on and like, that was nothing. You'd probably hunted him how many, how many, I don't know how many days before that. And then when you refound him, I don't know if you killed him that day or if you're hunting for another week and killed him, but it just, that's what it takes to kill one elk or one specific elk. You know, it's a

however many days scouting you hunt him for a while, you lose him for seven days, you keep on him. And fortunately, you know, archery seasons allow, allow some of that because in most every state, that's the most liberal season and, and, and you get to go first. And so there's those benefits, but I think that goes unnoticed. And I want to point that out is, yeah, you, most people, you lose, lose an animal for seven days during the hunt. 90% of people are probably moving on and going to something else. And we've got clients, we've got clients that are like, all right, we, we blew this animal out and they look at you and go, where are we going next? What animal are we hunting next? And you're like, uh, we're staying. Yeah. Today, today might be ruined, but tomorrow we're going to be right here again. You know? Yeah. I mean, um, it, it takes a while. Like it didn't happen overnight,

but you have to be comfortable with the fact that you may eat your cat. I mean, if you truly, I mean, everybody says that's the one I want, but can you, can you walk? I mean, I sent you some video of that, that other great big bull that I passed up this fall. And when I say passed up, I mean, 19 yards, you could kill him for sure. Wallowing. He was wallowing. Wasn't he wallowing or tearing brush up or something? I mean, he was like dead pretty much if you wanted him. Yeah. Yeah. You, you just have to go like, okay, you know what? I'm going to hunt one bull and I'm comfortable if I don't feel my tag, which takes a long time to get to. I, I, I had set that in my mind before I was comfortable doing it. Um, and until you do it a couple of times and you go, okay, I'm comfortable with the outcome. This is what I'm going to do. Um, then, then it, it's just kind of,

whatever happens happens. Do the best you can. Yeah. Kind of get to the next level. I mean, you, you can't, if you're trying to kill your first elk, you can't say I'm, I'm 350 or nothing. I mean, it's a progression and, and, uh, you know, those people don't see the time and they see the great big bulls and they go, geez, you kill a huge one every year. Well, I don't kill a huge one. No, you don't. Yeah. You said it was the best bull I can find every year. I, but I think I added it up one time. I averaged, you know, about between hunting and scouting about 29 days apiece between, between bulls. And that's what a couple of curve killers that, you know, you get on, you know, early in the hunt. Um, you don't see that, you know, everybody just, you just see the pictures. Do you just see, you're lucky. You're so lucky, Brennan. How do you just keep stumbling onto these

big bulls and you're just, you want to do it illegally, you know, or just, yeah. Oh yeah. What ranch, what ranch you killing them all on or whatever, you know, and it's, it's none of that. It's, it's a lot of in the trenches and eating tags and yeah, you don't, you don't take pictures or or, you know, they love to point. I mean, the number one thing people love to point to is like money and access, whether it be tags or, or, or private land or whatever. And it's like, that's, that's, that makes it easy for people to, to, to, to feel good about themselves. Yeah. Yeah. They feel good about themselves. But at the end of the day, you rarely hear a guy say, man, if, if, if I had put in the time and I had that skill, you know, which, which for me, the biggest factor, whether, you know, and I'll hunt the

best stuff I can on any given year. If somebody will let me hunt private ground, I'll hunt private ground. I don't pay to hunt in my own state. I don't, people don't believe that, but that, that, that, that just is what it is. I mean, I didn't pay a dime to hunt where I was hunting this year. Um, it's one of those things where the skill and the time, the time is the most important thing for me. I mean, I, I would, a five day hunt doesn't even interest me. I've had, you know, opportunities to get on places for short periods of time. Like I don't even want to go on a short hunt. Those short New Mexico. The odds are not in your favor to get it done. They're just simply not, you know, time. It's a, it's a weird pressure with a short, short timeframe. So, you know, I think it's, it's one of those things where, you know, time and then the skills you

develop, you know, like I said, everybody wants to point to money and access and it's like, well, there's a lot of dudes you turn loose on a really good place with a really good tag. And then aren't going to get it done. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, there's, it's, it's not that easy. It seems easy. And I think nowadays with whether it's social media or, or, or videos or, you know, it was CDs when they came out and there's giant bulls bugling. Like man, most of my days spent elk hunting or me laying out in the heat, like a rattlesnake, um, looking at nothing, you know, getting my ass kicked. You know, that really is reality. And that's the same thing with these videos of big deer out on these private ranches and, you know, a lot of these, I don't know, all these bucks that are being photographed on in national parks or wherever, it's just not that way out hunting. It's not the reality.

Run out to Nevada and see, see what you see, you know, it's quite enjoyable. So yeah, that all that stuff doesn't make the highlight reel, the 10 minute highlight reel of the hunt. Yeah. Yeah. Whether what something we put out or, yeah, it's a, people would lose interest if that was 98% of your video, which is what 98% of the hunt was like, they would lose interest and quit watching before they got to the end. Here's a day in the life of Brendan Burns, September 1st. And you'd be like, all right. After 10 days of that, they've tuned it out before they even get to the highlight reel, really, of you killing a bull. Yeah. And that's part of the growth as far as, you know, being, whether it's, you know, whatever your chosen craft is, you know, mine's sheep and elk is what I really, really love to hunt. But it's, it's being able to, can you, can you deal with the failure with the, not, not

failure, but can you grind it out until you see the success? Can you, can you handle the slow time? Can you, you know, it's like, you know, I, it's, you know, to talk about sheep on a little bit, you know, like, I mean, I just, I killed a ram this fall with my bow in British Columbia stone sheep, which is, you know, a really, really hard thing to do. So, but it wasn't until I had a few sheep under my belt that I could actually say, I'm going to go home without one or I'm going to get one with my bow. Was that your, was that your mentality this year? I knew you'd killed one with, with Jarrett Dooling six or seven years ago. And so that probably eased that. Did you even take a gun with you up there this time? I didn't, I didn't take a rifle. No. And yeah, it changes. That's what changes about it is when I won that hunt in a drawing. Um, the one I did with Jarrett Dooling. Yeah.

And that was the year I was up there, I think. Yep. Oh, you guys, yeah. You guys flew in. Yeah. When we were, I was, I was sleeping. I think when you guys flew in. Yeah. Sleeping, flew in, woke you up. You had to give me some grief about my attire.

Oh yeah. You gotta do that. No, it was, it was one of those things. I mean, seven years ago on my first stone sheep hunt, I could not afford to leave without one. I didn't know if I'd ever have an opportunity to get a stone sheep. Absolutely not. Man, I had to get one. It's like your first doll sheep with, you know, Mike Litson 10 or 15 years ago. How long has that been ago? It's the same thing. You didn't know this might be one and only. That's it. You don't know. Yep. That's it. Well, cool. Yep. And so fast forward to this year, you went to British Columbia with Gundahoo and it was a bow only. And I know it was a grind because I know you were there for a long time. Yeah. I mean, stone sheep are one of those things where there's just not a lot of them. I mean, anybody that's on a stone, you know, doll sheep country, they're white. You can see them.

They're generally populations a little bit higher. You know, it's, it's, it's a little more open. I mean, stone sheep, they're like mule deer. They live in the timber. There's not a lot of them. It's tough on big, rugged country. It was really hot this year. And, uh, yeah, I turned a, turned a band of rams up with something with the guy named Scott Erickson was my guide. And, uh, we turned a band of rams up and watched them for a few days until they were in the right, till they were in the right spot to, to put a sneak on them. And that's, that's another thing that's just kind of come over time is being able to not go after everything when you find it, you know, to know that, Hey, that's, that sheep's in a bad spot. Um, my percent, my, my odds of getting him are way higher if I just watch them. The last thing you want to do is blow them out and then timber him up tight. Yeah.

And you're a day and a half, two days to get onto another ram or, or whatever, you know, plus. Yeah. I mean, it's one of those things. My, my, uh, my sheep hunting mentors got him railed and he, uh, he killed the first Boone and Crockett sheep ever killed with a bow in 1968. Boone and Crockett bighorn in Montana. In Montana. Yep. Yeah. He was, I just lucky enough that he's from my hometown. I got to know him, uh, back, back into about 2000, I met him and it is saying with sheep hunting, which I didn't get until I'd been on a lot of sheep hunts and didn't quite understand what he was always saying is like, you can't make it happen. You gotta let it happen. And especially with bow hunting is it, man, it's gotta be right. You can go chase them around and do your thing, but you gotta let it happen. There's guys out there that try to run them down and, and force it, you know, force it.

But, uh, but like you're saying, I mean, and especially when you're hunting specific animals, you know, obviously back to elk a little bit, but you know, you just can't, you can't force it or you're, you know, you lose them for maybe two weeks or ever. If your season's coming, you know, dwindling in, like it could have been on your stone sheet. I don't know what day you found these, this bunch of rams. And, you know, if you're up there for a, you know, bow hunt, sometimes they'll, they'll, uh, let you plan on a couple of more days. Not always, but you're usually still confined to a 10 or 15 day hunt. You know, that's a long, that's a long hunt. So, but when you find your ram, it may be halfway through it and then you got to wait for a few more days before the conditions arise. So I don't know what day you're on to your hunt. It's hard to do. I was there five days early.

Um, I killed it on the second day of the season, so I think it was the sixth or seventh day. Um, but I was hunting with, you know, Jason and Donald Trump Jr. We're also in a, in a different area. So I ended up staying a total of 17 days after I killed my sheep, I hunted with both of them and we covered a lot of country. It was a really tough hunt, but that was in the 17 days I was there. That was the only opportunity, uh, I would have got. That was when we saw three legal rams, they killed two of them and I killed the other one. And the only archery opportunity I would have had was that one stock when I killed my ram. So yeah, talk us through it. Cause I, uh, I've mentally tried to put myself there. I've been fortunate to kill one and would love the opportunity to kill one with my bow now, but have not mentally gone there.

I killed a real light one with dueling, but, but I just can't imagine. Taking a bow only. I just can't imagine. Writing a check and here we go. It's, uh, me against him. So tell us about, I mean, there's some pressure, maybe not to some extent cause you had killed one. It wasn't the mindset of, I want to kill it with a bow. And this is maybe my only stone sheep in my life, but still there's, everything's got to go right. And you know, with a bow hunting mule deer, elk, whatever, generally it takes messing up even on one specific animal a couple of times before it comes together. And you don't have that many opportunities to mess up on a sheep up there in a 10 to 15 day hunt, you know. So tell us about the stock and what, what, what happens. It is a unique pressure. And I always, I advise a lot of guys that are going on their first sheep hunt.

I just tell them like, listen, you're going to feel a pressure you've never felt before. Um, whether, you know, with elk hunting and deer hunting and stuff that you can do down here. The thing is with me, you know, I mean, when it comes to elk hunting is I can always go back. I've got, like I said, time is the biggest factor. I feel like until the season ends, like I didn't get them. I can always go back. The thing about a sheep hunt is it's, it's a finite amount of time. I mean, here's your, here's your timeframe and, and it's over and it's a unique pressure, especially if there's a lot of money riding on it. Um, it is a lot of money. It, you know, I don't care if you're a rich guy or you've, you've saved a ton of money. It's a totally different pressure when there's that riding on it. And there was something I didn't realize.

I mean, my first doll sheep hunt, I could not leave without one. I, I, I, I was just, it's a, it's a totally different pressure. And the fact that when that last day ticks down and you're gone, that's it. You're not getting it back. You can't come back. You can't relocate. I mean, they're like, it's over. So it is a unique pressure that you're going to feel. Um, and especially if it means something to you, you sacrifice to be there and save money and everything else and taking time away from family. And, you know, it's a real, it's something that's important to you. It's, it's a totally unique pressure. Um, I had killed a stone sheep before, so I was just, I was prepared to, uh, to not get one. And, uh, that's kind of the only way you're probably going to get one with a bow is to say, I mean, to say. Be willing to accept the fact that, yeah, you might not, but you won't kill one if you

don't only take a bow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So how about the stock and you got in a good position and walk us through it? Because, I mean, is it killing the first time you tried or? Yeah. Yep. I did. We, uh, we had, we had, they had went down on these cliffs and we're just in a terrible spot. And we actually walked out on this point just to kind of keep an eye on them, thought they were, you know, in a, in a terrible spot and we probably weren't going to get a run at them that day or just, just to keep an eye on them. And, and they had come up this cliff and, and, and we're walking exactly down the same trail that they had went down that night. And they started getting kind of closer and closer to us. And then they started running at us and we're, and I could tell where they were headed to feed, where they had fed in the morning. And I didn't think they were going to head that direction.

So I basically just grabbed my bow and I told Scott, I said, Hey, get a little higher. I'm going to, I'm going to see if I can cut them off. And I had to run about 500 yards and, uh, they were just sheep being sheep and they crossed this little saddle and were headed right towards me. And I, there was four of them and I actually had, uh, thought he would, he was in the front and then he had kind of peeled off at some point in time. And I was stalking and I was about 90 yards from three of the Rams, which I thought he was in. And I looked to my, to my right and he, I could just see the top of his head, um, just the top of his horn, it's not even his eyes. And he was walking at me. I got an arrow in, uh, on my string and, and, uh, I just had got a range at, uh, 40, 48 yards. And he was, he was over the top of this little crest that was about 20 yards in front of me,

but he was down the other side of it. And so I could only see the top of his back. And then he, he saw me, he knew something was up. He didn't, he didn't know what I was. And, uh, you know, just from years of archery practice, I knew that if I picked a spot on his body, my arrow would arc over the top of the hill in front of me and hit him. You know, I saw Fred Bearer killed his world record stone sheet back in the, in the fifties or sixties. And I had read about it and it was funny how things happen in your mind so fast. And I, and it popped into my head, like my arrow is going to arc over the top. I can't see where I can't see where I'm going to hit. Yeah. Yeah. I can't see where I'm going to hit, but I can see where his body is angled. And, uh, I shot him for, I shot him for 49 yards, 48, 49 yards. And, uh, just smashed him. Make the right call.

And arrow did exactly what I hoped it would do. Arced over the top and was your pin mid body and took him out. Was your pin on the, on the ridge then on the ridge. Yep. Yeah. Pin was on dirt. You knew where the, halfway between, you knew where the lungs were. Halfway between you and him. You could see the top of his back or, or wherever. I don't know how much you could see, but you put it on the ridge line between you and the sheep. That takes some guts to punch that release. On your, on your sheep hunt with an opportunity. Yeah. The whole, all that pressure that you're talking about. Your 50 yard pin or whatever is on a ridge on a rock when you punch the release. Yeah. Yep. And it, uh, and it worked. I mean, I smoked him, just smashed him. Uh, he ran about 50 yards and died. And it was, yeah, it was really cool. And I took the shot because I could see the body angle.

I knew exactly where he was. It wasn't, it wasn't like, I was guessing where his body was. I knew exactly where his body was. You just couldn't see the sweet spot behind the shoulder, 18 inches lower than you'd, you'd needed to see. Yep. So that's pretty cool. Awesome, man. So that puts you halfway. I know, I know, I know you killed the desert sheep last, well, I guess it was this year technically, but it was, I call it last winter, but it was, you know, May even. I don't know. It was hot. You guys, you were, you were down there. So that kind of finished your, your, your desert was your last one. You needed to kill all four species. But this one, what put you halfway, halfway after you're rocky in Montana, put you halfway to an archery, right? Yep. Yep. Halfway, halfway to an archery slam. I finished my grand slam with a rifle.

Uh, yeah, I killed a 14 year old ram in Mexico in March, you know, really, really hot weather hunt, big, big one horn ram. And then, yeah, this is, uh, I killed a, uh, big ram in Montana in 2015. Giant, yeah. And then my bow and the missed stone sheep. So what's your goals, Brandon? What's your goals as far as the sheep hunting? And are you going to, you know, another, do you know, another, do you know, another desert with a bow at some point? Or, I mean, you know, what are you, what are your goals on that? Yeah. Yeah. I want to, I want to get a grand slam with my bow. Um, it's going to be a process. Uh, doll sheep have actually been the hardest one for me. I've got, um, almost 45 days hunting doll sheep with my bow and I've had one shot, which I did not connect on in, uh, super tough conditions. I drew a 14 seat tag in 2012.

Um, but I've, I've actually hunted that the two hardest ones to get are, are, you know, unless you draw a tag or, or big horn and stone and, and, uh, my biggest struggle. And so, yeah. So, and, and the desert, I'll just wait, you know, like I'm not in a rush. I'm not in like, I I'm enjoying, I enjoy hunting so much now that I, you know, when it happens, maybe it'll be 10 years down the road. I mean, my next desert, I need it. I need a desert sheep tag at some point in time and I'll hunt it with my bow and, uh, cause I've already got a desert. And, uh, yeah, I'm looking forward to it, but the doll's my next, uh, you know, I'm going to hunt dolls this summer. Um, and we'll see if I can get one. You only taking your bow this time? I am only, I'm only taking my bow. That's awesome. We'll have you on maybe this fall and see how it turns out. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome.

Well, we've talked a lot about, uh, scores, trophy hunting and all of that. And it seems like there's a little bit of a shift, you know, and I, and I don't know that there's truly a shift, maybe just a few of these, you know, somewhat, uh, maybe young guys in the hunting industry pushing for, you know, leaving the trophy out in the hills and taking the meat home and that you only hunt for meat and different things. And we shouldn't be trophy hunting. And, and, uh, of course that's what drives us. And it's not like trophy hunters aren't meat eaters, but just kind of wanted to know your take on that. Like what's Brendan Burns think about that and, and, uh, how trophy hunting plays a role in the hunting industry and buying gear and going and experiencing crazy places and hunting specific animals and, and all of that. Yeah.

I mean, I mean, the, the meat thing, the meat movement has been, it's been a neat thing. It's obviously raised awareness of hunting and it's, it's putting it, it's made it popular and, and it's, you know, a thing people can talk about. And I feel like it's, it's put something in the forefront that we've always known. I mean, that's not, I mean, I guess the irritating thing to me is people think that, um, we were throwing the meat away for the last 30 years or whatever. I don't know. I was cutting and wrapping meat in 1980 when I was five years old. Yeah. I mean, I've, we ate all of our, I mean, it was big. To this day. So it's kind of weird. Like to me, it's weird to take pictures of it now. Like it's like, it's a new thing. You know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, I always tell, you know, you hear people say, well, I don't have a

problem with hunting as long as, as long as you eat with your hunt. It's like, well, you don't have a problem with hunting. I mean, it's legally required to take it. Yes. Take the meat. Yeah. And that's great that, that people are raising the awareness and all that, but it's, you know, it's like, I, I don't have to get on Instagram every day to tell you I didn't rob a bank either. I mean, it's illegal to leave the meat. Yeah. Absolutely. Like it's, that's great. And that's cool. If you want to say that, but like, you know, you know, like I said, my, my buddy Ray Alt, you know, has been hunting, you know, bow hunting since the sixties and all, you know, he said, you know, it's like, you're not the first people to take the meat. Like you're the, it's great that people understand that. And obviously for the general non hunting public, that's a great part.

But when it comes to hunters, why do you have to tell me you're taking your meat? What, and why is it bad to take, to smile in a picture? Why is it? Why is it bad to smile in a picture of you and a trophy or? After 29 day average days, like you described or 30 or, you know, 29 days that really went over in some cases, multiple years, multiple seasons. You know, when you walk up to an animal and you know, that animal, there's elation. And there's a respect, there's an amazing amount of respect that goes into each one of your animals, Brendan, just as it does each of my deer or sheep, Adam, all your trophies. I mean, there's an amazing amount of respect. And to say that I smiled in a picture does not take away from that. Not for me. It's, uh, yeah, it's, it's, it's one of those things that's, uh, I mean, I think if people

understand, like I hunt for more than just the meat, I'll just say it. That's fine. I mean, I love the challenge. I, there's something genetically in me, like I love to hunt animals. I'm not, I don't shy away from that. It's my favorite thing I've ever done. Um, it's, you know, it's, it's something that I look forward to every single day. I can't imagine my life without it. I hunt for the challenge. I mean, just filling the freezer is just not that hard. I mean, I hunt for the challenge. Um, the, the, the meat, the fact that I feed my family with that and have forever, as long as I've known, I mean, I grew up in Montana. I, I, uh, my parents never bought a piece of meat ever in it growing up at all. And it wasn't because it was cool or it was like, Oh, we're trying to do it. It's just, you didn't have to go. You didn't have to go by. We didn't either.

I can't even remember having a beef steak when I was a kid. And I don't, I can't remember the last time I bought beef, um, you know, cut and wrapped a beef. I mean, per se, you know, we've got, my freezer is full of big game. Yeah. And like you said, it's not that hard to fill your freezer. If all you were as a meat eater and that's all we should be, you would never leave your home state. You would hunt rabbits, upland game. You'd hunt waterfowl. You'd go out and shoot does and cow elk and, and all of these things. Totally fine. That's perfectly fine. And you wouldn't buy hunting gear. You wouldn't buy expensive hunting gear or upgrade your equipment and all of these things just to fill your freezer. Go to hunting conventions or all that. You don't need to go to those. You wouldn't walk the expo to talk about does and cow elk. You wouldn't. No.

And I always, you know, it's always funny to me when guys are like, I don't care. You know, big horns don't matter to me. I'm just about to meet. And I would say, no, you're not. You know what those big bulls are made out of? Meat. Lots of it. And more meat than a spine. I would say you really don't love meat if you're shooting a smaller bull. That's right. What about a fork and horn deer? You can throw one on your back. If you shoot a six-year-old deer, they're freaking heavy. They got a lot of meat on them. I mean, here's the thing. I want it all. Okay. I want to have the challenge. I want to hunt a great big bull. I love the fact that that big yellow hide is wrapped in a ton of meat. I enjoy eating that. I'm a pretty damn good cook. I got two smokers on my back there. And I don't have to tell everybody every day what the recipe is that I'm using or whatever. But I love eating.

I hammered out some back straps last night, Asian style, which was great. We had coos deer back strap last night. It was incredible. They were coos deer are incredible. My wife made tacos out of deer hamburger. But I didn't Instagram it or tweet it out. And I guess the thing, and I don't want to make too much light of it, but the point, it seems like it's in our face right now. So I guess that's why we're talking about it. Well, we're being criticized. Well, it feels like it. And we're being criticized by hunters, by other hunters, which is one of the hardest things for me. It feels like we're in politics. It feels like we're Democrats and Republicans. It just feels like that whole fight within the hunting industry. You smiled in a picture. You should have set up a camera 10 feet away and looked, you know, faked a picture of you looking and respecting the animal.

Having reverence there instead of a smile. When, in all reality, we all have that feeling when we walk up upon an animal. But the natural reaction is a smile and excitement and all that. That's the kind of guy, like, well, that's fine and that's your gig, whatever. But, like, I want it all. I can have the challenge, the meat, the whole thing, the trophy hunting for me. It's the challenge. It's not the, you know, if anybody thinks that it's the antlers or anything that matters that much, stop by my garage. They're all just hanging in the garage. They're upside down. I got a 400-inch Wyoming bull upside down in my garage. Yeah. Yeah. You know, but the challenge of making the most of that tag, the challenge of going out, like, if you wanted a bull, you'd have been done in, you know, 17 minutes down, you know, down the road or whatever.

If you're not in the, I mean, you would never hunt sheep if it was just about that. How could you justify it? 45 days. The country it takes you to, the challenges that puts you through, the, you know, there's something to planning and saving and dreaming about something for, you know, five years or a lifetime. And taking part of your college, you know, your kid's college fund or whatever. Like, you could be saving. Like, you can't, it's not that justifiable except for the fact we love it. It's our industry. That's what we do. That's what drives us. That's why Adam and I wake up in the morning. I mean, it's everything. Constantly learning new things about new units. Hunting four or five states a year or six states a year. I mean, we would need 15 freezers plus, you know, if it was just about the meat. And, um, cause like you said, it's just not that hard to, to, to, to obtain meat.

Well, and we talked about it earlier. There's the progression. We all started at a different level. You know, in Utah, I could, we could start hunting when I was 14. My first deer opening day, archery season. My dad, he had a, he had a friend hunting with him and they were going to go up to the basin with the big bucks. And, and I had a couple little places that next to the cabin that we're packed into that had some four point bucks. But by, by the time opening day came, it was either sex archery. And I'm 14 and my brother Aaron was 11 and it was either sex. I told my dad the night, the morning of opening day is this, we're getting ready. I said, dad, I might shoot a doe today. I'm so freaking amped up as a 14 year old. I get to carry my own weapon for the first time in my life. And the first, first thing that presented to me was a forky, you know, 43 yards.

I'm shooting a 44 pound carol bow at the time and arched one in there. All right. And, and it didn't, I watched it go down and lay down and I watched it and watched it. And anyway, I figured I better give it the time. Dad wasn't around. So I went back, got my brother, went back there. We started tracking, found the deer, still bedded. And it, you know, it was a young deer. So a big deer would have jumped up and blown off. We'd have probably never found it again. So he's a dink. But the moral of the story, we had to get out the instructions, like the outdoor life, how to gut a deer. My dad had given me, I'd seen him before, but my dad's not here. He's up in the basin with his buddy. And this is opening morning. I got a dead deer now. You know, we went back and he's, he's dead. We, yeah, we, we opened it up.

We looked at, you know, reaming, reaming the bud out and gutting it and doing all things that we've never done before. And drug that thing back a thousand yards or so back to our camp. And that's where it started. And I was, I'll always be proud of that deer, just like a lot of the bigger deer that I've killed later in my life. So you start and you go through a progression and, and at some point, you know, that doesn't mean that I'm, I don't value what I once did or what other people are doing or what I'm now experiencing with my kids. And just getting an opportunity and gaining experience on hunts is, is more important to them and is what I stress them. I mean, I'm hunting cow elk in the morning with my 12 year old. I mean, classic example. It's, it's about that. And you have to, you have to go through that. But he probably doesn't want to hunt cow elk in three or four more years.

He's like, dad, I've done that. I've shot a couple of cows. You know, let's hunt bulls. I mean, my daughter shot cows. They shot a couple of cows, you know, and early on. And they don't, they don't want to do it anymore because, you know, all right, they've done it. And there's natural progressions. And so I just, I guess the thing that bothers me most about it is somehow a trophy hunter feels a little bit under attack from the standpoint of the non-appreciation. Because there is nobody that appreciates more what I can hopefully harvest every year than me. Because I've, I've been there through a lot of the other stuff. And it goes down to the challenge. Like you said, it's a personal challenge. It's a Super Bowl. Jason and I use that metaphor all the time. When we call each other, dude, it happened. You know, you're like, dude, you won the Super Bowl. Congrats.

You know, if it's him and a bat on a deer or me somewhere, it's that. It's a pinnacle. And it doesn't mean I'm making light of the animal's life or whatever. It's just the culmination of a lot of emotion, a lot of sweat. Time, preparation. Yeah, everything. Everything has to go right when you're hunting one animal. And I think the definition of a trophy hunter, if you're holding out for a three-point, you're a trophy hunter to a degree. If you're holding out for a four-point, you're a trophy hunter to a degree. That's fine. And everybody's definition of a trophy hunter is different. If you're not holding out whatsoever and you shoot the first buck that comes in front of you if you have a buck tag, then, yeah, I agree. You're not a trophy hunter. But that is so rare. Most men, full-grown men, are holding out. What are you holding out for? Well, I want at least a four-point. Why?

Why do you want a four-point? They don't say because he's 25 pounds more of meat. They don't say that. He's either embarrassed as he's a grown man shooting a fork at a horn, or he truly wants a little bigger deer. And if you want a little bigger deer and you have some kind of a goal, to me, you're a trophy hunter. And so it's just interesting how all this is coming about. And what's wrong with letting a deer grow, you know, mature and breed and pass on genetics and shoot him at the – or harvest him at the end of his life or toward the latter third of his life when he's got to grow up versus shooting a four-point horn that never did get to breed, didn't get to have a life. You know what I'm saying, Burns? Yeah, I mean, it's funny. I mean, the guys that say, yeah, I don't really care about antlers. I shoot the first bull I see or whatever.

And it's funny how those guys spend two or three months looking for sheds in the springtime. Yeah, they don't value the antler. And yet, how much money are they spending looking for sheds? Why don't you collect dull skulls? Why don't you collect cow-told skulls if antlers don't mean anything? And everybody – like, it's just natural. I mean, it's like no one says, man, I just specialize in really small stuff. I mean, maybe – and again, it is a progression. I mean, the ultimate career in elk hunting, it would be to start at, you know, take a cow and then get a spike and then get a drag horn and then get a six-point. You can work your way up. I mean, and appreciate everyone as you go and just getting better and better. But, yeah, no one specific – I mean, no one – everybody calls back the cutest girl in high school that gives them their number.

Okay, no one is like, well, you know what, I'm just – I'm really into just mean girls that have terrible attitudes. No, I mean, everybody – the best job you can get that you make the most money, that's what you do. The biggest bull you can find in a herd, that's the one you go after. But, you know, it's – you know, nobody intentionally shoots a small bull out of a herd with a great big bull in it. No one. No one does that. Not one person. It doesn't happen. No. You know. So it's one of those things, and a lot of it is – and I give a lot of those guys a pass in the fact that, you know, you don't know how little you know until it becomes pretty obvious. I mean, you don't know that you're not that good until you get a little bit better. And you go, oh, man. You know, and I was – I've been there a ton of times. Yeah, we've all made that – have that realization.

I think I knew what I was doing. Yes. You know. We all get humbled and realize, okay, that was something I didn't think I would, you know, have to learn the hard way, but I did, and I'm not going to let it happen again or whatever. And I – anyway, I guess back to this point, this hunters, you know, heaven knows with anti-hunter and ballot initiatives and everything in every other state we're dealing with, whether it's – you know, used to be confined to, like, predatory animals like the wolves, the bears, and the lions, you know, the more socially, you know, hot-button type species, which have been, you know, all over Western ballot initiatives in Western states. But it feels like more and more this – the way we're pitting each other against each other. And it even happens amongst archery and rifle hunters. We see it in our own state here in Utah.

And Jason and I, and to you, to some extent, Burns, I mean, you hunt – you hunt with whatever weapon. You may gravitate to the bow a lot more. You freaking hunt bulls in the rut with archery. It's a natural thing, you know. That's when our states line up with the seasons. If you're an elk hunter, more people will gravitate to a bow that really are serious because you get longer seasons in the rut, all that. But we see the archers. You know, we hunt with everything. And I'm an archery hunter. I'm a rifle hunter. I hunt with a muzzleloader, any angle I can get. But I see the archer and rifle hunters get so rabid in some of these public meetings against each other about how we're going to hunt the resource and who should get more days and first and all of that.

And literally yelling and screaming much to the same – you know, to a lesser extent, the trophy hunter versus opportunity appreciative hunters arguments going on right now. It feels like – I just think it's kind of nonsense because we're all on the same team. You know, we want our sport to survive. We don't want it to be opened up unnecessarily to public or non-hunting ridicule. None of us want that, obviously. And there's things we can obviously tastefully, tactfully do or don't do to help that. But when the other stuff that doesn't matter, like just leave it alone. Let people that want to hunt a certain way, as long as it's moral and legal, let them do it. And if I want to choose to do it my way and it's moral and legal, let me do it. Let me do it. I enjoy it.

And same thing, you know, I think the more people that back down, you know, or succumb to pressure of being, quote, a trophy hunter, if they do do that, I guess maybe the drawing odds in some of these tough tags and some of the trophy tags will get better. I don't know. I guess that would be a positive way to look at it, you know, if there's less trophy hunters. But I don't see that happening anytime soon. No, that's not happening. You know, it's the same thing with, you know, bow versus rifle. I see a lot with guided versus unguided. You know, it's like when it comes to sheep hunting, you know, there's this funny thing where everybody wants all the credit. And they're like, wow, it was a guided hunt. You know, it's like, well, you can dismiss a guy that went on a guided hunt, especially when you're looking at it with sheep.

But I'll be honest with you, I've been on, I think, eight sheep hunts now that are legally required to be fully guided. And I say that because that's just a fact. You have to have a guide. But those hunts, nothing was taken away from me by having a guide with me. In fact, I've had nothing but, you know, some of the best, you know, long-term friends that I've met and best guides, stuff that I learned. I've always enjoyed hunting with those guys. And I've picked stuff up. It hasn't taken away from the hunt. It's added to it. And there's this funny thing where it's like, oh, it's all your credit. And, oh, I did this on my own. And like, man. I did it myself. I'll not. Yeah. Yeah. I did it by myself. You know, hey, man, everybody hunts the best opportunity they get every time. They're given. That's right.

You take a job that makes the most money, everybody is going to go, you know, like, you know, everybody says, I'd never go on a guided hunt until they got a little extra money. And then they go. Or buy a landowner tag or something that not everybody can do. And, you know, I've heard that regarding some of the deer or sheep or whatever that we've done. And Jason has, too. And I'm sure you, Burns, you've been involved in some of the, well, not some of the highest priced auction sheep tags there are in the world in Montana. And with mule deer and sheep, I've been involved in that, too, and saying, well, that guy doesn't, he doesn't deserve the deer he just got. You know, he just walked in and he shot it. And for me, I take a little bit of offense to that because I was hired to do my job. And then I've been in some while. And you love your job. I love it. I love it. I've quit in my life.

You're not going to apologize for it. Yeah, in my life, in the last 10, 15 years, I've quit two jobs knowingly to get to where I am right now, to be able to have a job and own a business like Epic Outdoors, Bronson Outfitting. I've quit two very solid, stable jobs to get to where I am now. So, and that's out of my choice. And it's with a lot. I went from zero two different times to get to where I am. Yeah, and I've dedicated my entire life to get to this point. So, I take exception to that to where if I take a hunter, and in your case in Montana, it'd be the same. If you are hired to do something to find the biggest or the best exceptional specimen of whatever it is, deer or elk, and we succeed, and then I get criticized, it really drives me nuts. It's like somebody that, all right, why don't you just go build your own house then?

Or who in civilization builds their own houses besides builders and would be comfortable building a house that them and their family could live in and be safe in? Very few people. You've got to go hire somebody. You used to do it. You hire the best person to build the best house to the max budget or close to it that you can afford, all right? When you're done, it's no different than, oh, look at the house that Carter or Burns built up on the hill. Oh, geez, they're up on Snob Hill. But really, you know, that's what we all do in life. Don't shoot a guide or an outfitter, or in your case, if we're going to Northwest Territories or Alaska, you have to hire somebody, and well, yeah, he just went up there and paid for a ram and all that. It really bothers me because there's people in industry that work very, very hard.

I'm one of them, Jason, you, and there's other guides and outfitters out there that that's their living. That's what they're paid to do. They should make you succeed. Don't fault them for it. So, anyway, rat over. Rat over. Yeah, and it's one of those things where I think right now a lot of guys, you hear a lot of guys say, well, if I had this, I could do that, or if I had this, I could do that, or if I was rich or if I had that much money or if I had access to that place or anything else. I would challenge anybody to say, you know, not if I had that or I wish I had that. Like, what do you got to do to make that happen? Quit your job and make your situation better. Just quit it. Yeah, I'll give you a good example. And you know this is true. It took me nine and a half years to get a Grand Slam, and I spent $23,000 total on my first Grand Slam. And, Adam, you know exactly how I did it.

Yeah. And I never looked at it like, man, that is unachievable. You got to be a rich guy to do it. I was like, no, I just went to figure out how I was going to do it. It took a lot of hustle. It took some good luck. It took some help from some people. But at the end of the day, I went and figured it out. And that's, I mean, I don't know a lot of guys that could pull that off, but I was obsessed with being able to do it. I wanted more opportunities to hunt sheep. And so I went after every opportunity. Some stuff nobody had ever even thought about trying. And I would say, instead of saying, hey, you know, wow, if I had that, I could do it. I'd look at, you know, look at this, look at what you want to do and figure out how to do it. Figure it out. That's right. You want a stone sheep hunt, you save $30,000 plus. That helps, obviously.

But you put yourself in a position by going to a convention or a show and buying raffle tickets or however it happens. Getting a deal on a desert sheep. Yeah, you're willing to go shoot a broken horned old desert ram. You're willing to do that. I mean, some people say, I don't want that. Well, Burns, you're talking to outfitters and saying, hey, you get an old ram somewhere. It's an old crusty warrior. That's the better. One horn, that even adds to the character. Or the towels or whatever it is. And I think it's just making the best of your situation. If you want it, you make it work. If you're a doctor, make a ton of money and go on those hunts. I mean, and people are critical, like, well, you know, of us spending our money that we've earned from hunting. Like, we give Epic membership money. And they take that money and go hunting. All we're doing is funding their hunting.

Well, my teeth are funding some dentist hunting. Yeah. My teeth, my kids' teeth, they're using my money to go on hunts. Yeah, my more. It's no different. I'm using my money that we earned from a business. My orthopedic surgeon has hunted sheep three out of the last four years. The guy that's done work on my knees. Yeah. Well, I don't fault him for that. Good for him. Yeah, I don't fault him for it. Use my money that I gave you to fix my teeth for whatever you want. Go buy a new house. Go buy a Corvette. Whatever. Some guys can't relate. You know, I mean, at the end of the day, I hear it like, oh, man, sheep on that. And coming from a guy who's driving a $75,000 Chevy, has a $100,000 motor home and a $60,000 boat for summertime skiing. You don't want a sheep hunt bad enough. Here's an example. It's much like yours, Burns. I don't know what popped on my head.

But I started applying for sheep probably like many people in my home state of Utah back when I was a teenager. Or late teens, you know, 20s. And, you know, it's at the time I thought, I'm going to hunt a desert sheep. That's, you know, I grew up around them. I want to do it. And I could never have foreseen that I still haven't drawn my desert sheep here in Utah. I'm due. And I was like you. I'm way past due. And I used my points to get a desert. Jason drew it, you know. And that was, was that your, that was your third ram. Yeah. You drew, you killed a doll on a Rocky. I killed a doll in the late 90s. Before that. I drew my Oregon, California big horn in 2004. And then I drew that desert. So fast forward to me 20, 25, 23, four years later. It's the last sheep I need for my slam now. And, and with the time I started to hunt, I figured it would be my first one.

And only one at a time, how perspective changes. But as you, as you go throughout your life, something means something to you. You're going to make something happen. You're going to, you know, you know, I, I, I bought a cancellation doll sheep hunt the first time for like 6,000 bucks. You know, something fell in my lap, but I was ready. And I jumped on it. Got lucky and drew a tag in Oregon. Oregon. That one cost you 1,500 bucks in gas or whatever. Yeah, whatever. Cost me, you know, yeah, gas money and whatever. So just whatever it is, whether it's giant bulls, whether it's a deer, whether it's anything. You know, I don't like the blame game. And I know we've been a little bit, I don't, it doesn't feel too negative. I just want to really point out that hunters, that hunters, we're all hunters. We're all on the same team. Let's try to get over the reasons why we hunt.

They're, everybody's reasons are important to them. As long as it's not immoral or illegal. Yeah. Leave people alone. Well, it's just like all, like sheep hunters, you know, sheep hunters are rich and they're this and they're that. And it's just like you said, Burns, back in the mid-90s, what did a sheep hunt cost? I think I got mine for six or seven grand. I drew the Oregon tag. I'm into that one, 1,500 bucks or whatever. I drew my desert. Nothing. Nothing. I'm into that one, 500 bucks in fuel and dealing with whatever, pre-scouting. And then, you know, I got a deal with dueling on one of the last hunts available. It was supposed to kill a doll. Ended up with a super light stone or fan. And he is super light, but technically I'm done and I'm in it. I'm in it very affordable, just like you and Adam. And here we are. We're guys. We are normal hunting guys that make a normal living.

And yet we have a taste for that. Look what you've done, Brendan. You're out there guiding, putting yourself in, you know, and we don't need to go in at everything that you got going, but you're killing giant Rockies and working with guys. And you're not doing it necessarily to put food on the table, although that helps a lot. But you're also doing it to help Brendan have more opportunities to hunt more doll sheep with a bow and spend more time with your own personal hunting aspirations. And that's awesome. It's freaking awesome. Don't criticize it. Yeah. Don't criticize me for wanting to do it. I guess that's, we're all hunters. And everybody's situation changes. And be careful because you, a finger pointer now, may be 20 years from now on the other side. Very likely will. If you want something bad enough, you will be on the other side of it.

But I think there's a lot of good in this industry as well. Like we, there's nothing. Brendan, I mean, would you rather make a living in any other industry than what you're doing? No, I love what I'm doing. I mean, it's great. And there's just a lot of great people to be associated with. And the opportunity that come with it, I mean, you know, like you said, nowadays, I mean, there's so many great opportunities when you're in this business. And I wouldn't shy away from saying that's why I've had some great opportunities, for sure. Absolutely. Me either. We love it. We love it. And for the most part, we deal with, like you have these positive experiences dealing with your clients. And like you said, that's one of the most, you know, the great enjoyments of your job is helping people obtain hunts and go on hunts.

And you're learning from them and helping them as well as outfitting them and cue you and all the gear that you guys offer. And that's Adam and I. We deal with hunters every day. And very, very, very rarely is there a negative. People are calling you because they're excited. They're happy. They're excited to plan for hunts and to plan for the future. And we're excited to help them. We get fired up. We do a little research on antelope. And we're all fired up to kill an antelope. And everybody knows I'm not that excited about antelope. And you get me fired up to freaking start wanting to kill a giant bull. You know what I mean? Archery hunt a stone. You know, see how big a boy I really am someday. Use your once-in-a-lifetime, you know, Nevada tag to take a bow and see how big a boy you are. Yeah. If I'm going to get one in Utah, I need to maybe think of that in another state. Exactly.

That's right. Yeah. It's one of those things. It's the world's oldest and greatest sport. It's fun to do. And, you know, like I said, everybody's got a different reason for why they do it and what they get out of it. But it's not, you know, just because a guy's after big stuff, it's not necessarily something that – or, yeah, it's not a negative. It's just that's what I like to do, which is cool. I mean, I look at it like, you know, there's some quotes you can look at, like, you know, a lot of guys will – you'll find a way to make it happen, and a lot of guys will find a way out, you know? And if you don't – if it's not a priority, you're not going to make it happen. I mean, I would say if a guy really wants to hunt sheep, you can figure out a way to make it happen. And that's not being negative. That's inspiring people. I've done it. You can do it.

I mean, there's – if you're ready to go – I mean, I have four or five of them here. If you're ready to go in August, your bags are packed. And you're in shape, and you've got some money set aside. And you're on the list and talking to a lot of guys and ready to go, there's a great deal to be had every single year. It will happen. Yep. Brendan, you know, tell us some of the different shows that you'll be out and, you know, how people can get in touch with you, visit with you, be shown some of the gear and the different products that you've got coming out. And just kind of give people an opportunity. Yeah, we're getting into that show season here pretty quick.

Yeah, I'll do. I'll be at every show this – we've got – Dallas Safari Club is coming up a couple weeks. And then I'll go to Wild Sheep. And I'm in the booth at every show. I mean, I think that's one cool thing people like about our brand is, you know, Jason and myself and the guys in the office that you talk to, we're in the booth chatting with guys. You can swing by and that's you there if you have a question or want to see some stuff. Dallas Safari Club, Wild Sheep, Safari Club, I'll be at Translam, and then the Western Hunting Expo. So it's about to be show season, which is the grind for sure for us. Yeah. All right. Well, yeah, it'll be great to see you there. I know we always have a hard time talking about too much there because you're jammed at those. And, you know, the ones that we do boost that, we are as well.

But we'll definitely look forward to catching up with you maybe either before hours or after hours. Yeah, it's all good. But, yeah, I appreciate you guys, you know, helping us out and appreciate you having me on. You bet. Yeah. Always fun to chat. I feel like we could go for three hours if we wanted to. Yeah, we've been an hour and a half and we'll do it again. And we've got a lot more to talk about. And there'll be more hunts this year, you know, hopefully more giant bulls and maybe a white ram on the ground with you and your bow or whatever. Just leave these mule deer alone, Brendan. Just leave the mule deer alone. That's right. You know what's funny is I just don't – I get it all the time. Like, when are you going to get in a mule deer? It's like, man, I don't have time, energy, money, or I can't – You can't do it all. I can't take on another habit. Yeah, you can't do it all.

I can't take on another habit. It's a little bit like us an elk. It's like us an elk. I have to give up mule deer to really go at it, you know. And you can only go – and I've only got two speeds, either off or on, and that's the way you are. Yeah. And you can either – and I've got to stop everything else and really focus, or I'll just keep killing nice bulls that you would pass. Yeah, that's me. And that same thing – we talk about it with whitetails. We've got to give up November hunting mule deer somewhere to go hunt giant whitetails somewhere. Nobody's going to give you a 200-inch whitetail, and someday I'd like to kill one, but I've got to stop everything and work on it to make it happen. For years, probably. Yeah, years. Years and years. Yeah. Yeah, the mule deer thing. I'm glad the bug hasn't bit me, and hopefully I can stay away from it.

Not that I don't like mule deer, but, man, I just – I don't have enough time. Yeah. Well, it'll happen at some point. You'll get a great tag, and it'll kind of force you to be all in because we know you well enough that don't. Yeah, when you get an opportunity, whether you make the time or you draw a tag out of nowhere or something, you'll make the time and you'll crush it. But, yeah, we appreciate your time today and all your support. You and Jason have been to us from the inception. That's right. You guys were one of the first. Jason was the first. To step up and said we're on board with you guys at Epic. Yeah, we appreciate it, and you guys are class all the way, and it doesn't go unnoticed. We appreciate our friendship. Didn't really talk about his giant ram that you guys were a part of in California, but that's maybe for another time too.

And maybe we'll grab you at one of the shows, put a mic in front of you and Jason, and have you talk to us about that hunt because that was pretty amazing. Yeah, that was pretty cool. Those things are – those are pretty special sheep, so that was a fun hunt for sure. Well, thanks, Brendan. We sure appreciate you, man. Keep killing, and we'll talk soon. See you at the shows. Speaking of the Western Hunt Expo, we are going to be there. We're Adam Bronson, myself, the Petersons, everybody here at Epic Outdoors. Jeff, my brother-in-law, we're going to be there at the Hunt Expo. We'll be at booth number 2845, February 8th to the 11th. So come on by. We're going to have a 20 by 50 booth. We're going to have one of the largest shed antler collections ever assembled. It's going to be awesome, and we're really looking forward to it.

So everybody that's interested to show up at the Hunt Expo, you can register online at HuntExpo.com. And, of course, there's day events, night events. It's just an awesome event. It's one of those times where some of the most serious hardcore hunters, Western big game hunters, gather and visit, see what's out there, put our hands on some of the different critters that were killed this past year. So it's always a great time, and we'll be there. It'll be one of the only shows that we actually have a booth at. And we're going to attend many of the shows and walk the aisles and visit with people. But we will have a booth at this Hunt Expo here in Salt Lake City, Utah, February 8th to the 11th, booth number 2845. We'll see you there.