EP 87: Hunting the West from and Eastern Perspective with Roger Smithson. In this episode of The Epic Outdoors Podcast we talk with Roger Smithson about hunting the west from the point of view of someone from the eastern states. Roger has been applying and hunting the west for nearly 30 years and as someone from the east has a unique perspective on the process.

Disclaimer: this text was produced through an automated transcription service and likely contains errors. Please listen to the original audio for exact content.

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I want to get aggressive. I want a long-term plan.

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You just keep applying and you just never know when it’s gonna happen.

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Drawing too many tags is really never, ever an issue,

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Anything to do with Western Big Games.

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To the Epic Outdoors Podcast, powered by Under Armour.

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Hey everybody. Jason Carter and Adam Bronson, the Epic Outdoors Podcast here in southern Utah, coming at you from Cedar City. So anyway, we’ve got an awesome guest on Before we do that, we wanna thank Under Armour for being sponsoring this podcast. Of course sponsor about everything we do here at Epic. So we appreciate them. I know they’ve got some, some of their new models of clothing have hit the stores, so to speak. They’ve hit online, go to Under Armour, and it’s probably ua.com, ridge reaper.com, under armour.com. Go to any of those sites. You’re gonna end up fishing through there. Be able to see some of their new lines of clothing. I’ve had some people hit me up and have already ordered some of the new pants and whatnot, so I’m gonna be doing that today, but myself. So anyway, let’s see. Let’s talk about outdoor edge knives.

00:01:04:26 –> 00:02:13:09
We’ve partnered with Outdoor Edge. They’ve got some incredible knives coming out. We’ve all, we all like the razor knives, so the outdoor edge, they do have the long, fairly stiff blade along with kind of a half blade that goes with it that you attach it to. And so it makes it really sturdy. You don’t have to worry about breaking your blades, razors, whatever you wanna call ’em near as often and, and jabbing one into, into your leg or something like that. Have a little more control on some of that. And the, the easy to change in and out just been awesome. They’re a great partner of ours. We really appreciate ’em and what a great product. And so anyway, you can check out the different knives they [email protected] or ask an outdoor edge dealer at your local sporting in store. So we’ve got guest Roger Smithson on a good long-term friend of both Adam and I, and he also authors the Hunter next door here in our magazine. And so he’s a, a valuable in, has a valuable insight to a lot of different aspects of Western big game hunting. He’s been doing it for many, many years and, and is just an awesome guy. Wealth of knowledge and a good friend. So anyway, Roger, you on?

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I’m here.

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Good to have you. Where are you coming to Roger? You’re from Arkansas, but I think you’re on the road. Join us from the little bit deeper south today, huh? Yeah,

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I’m, I, I live in Arkansas and I’m working a project in West Monroe, Louisiana today. Duck Dynasty land. I’m, I’m right by the Duck Dynasty headquarters.

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Geez. Might

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Be able to get an autograph from somebody around.

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Should have had s up for coffee. And we chatted with y’all this morning. Yeah.

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Get, get Willie on for the next podcast maybe.

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Hey, do you think s ever takes him sunglasses off when he sleeps even, or,

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I don’t know. I don’t know if he sleeps as much tea as he drinks. Yeah.

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Doesn’t seem like it.

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Are you a tea drinker,

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Raj? No.

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Is it, is it good for you or bad for you?

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They say it gives you kidney stones. Ooh. And that’s a, that’s a southern deal down here. Everybody drinks tea. Gee, I wonder what? I’m not a big fan.

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Wonder if monsters give you kidney stones? That’s

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Probably I gotta fill and you’ll be able to tell me in a few years.

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That’s probably the least of what they give you.

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Yeah. Colon cancer and everything else. Alright, well, Roger, we kind of wanted to have you on a little bit today just kind of talking about Western hunting from the eastern point of view. And so anyway, I know you’ve got, you know, some ideas that maybe you wanted to share with everybody, but where do you wanna start this thing?

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Oh, wherever you guys want to go. I can tell you a little bit about my history in the, the western, the lure of the western hunts. I had a kind of a mentor that kind of took me under his wing as a young guy late in high school. And he would always go out to west, the west and hunt. And this was in the early eighties, mid eighties. And he was kind of in the mule deer heyday in southern Colorado. And he was just bringing back these big mule deer and every year. And so one time he took me out, I was 18 years old, and we drove out there and we bow hunted. And from then on I was just hooked. And I, I liked the, the change in scenery, just the different types of animals and, and the people that really kind of a different culture.

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Yeah. And I got hooked on that and have been hooked on it ever since. And I don’t know, I probably came to know you in the, in the, I guess in the late nineties and started trying to figure out the application game, which had been real confusing to me. And you helped me figure that out. And I started applying for tags many years ago and have got lucky through the years and hope to have more luck in the future. And I’ve just had some great experiences and opportunities through the years and met a lot of just really great people. And I And you, you and Adam being two of those.

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Well, it’s, it’s probably right. I mean, we’ve known you back with our former employer. I mean, we had you on covers. We had, you’ve drawn a couple of rocky tags, one in Colorado and one in Montana. Remember we put you on the cover on that one. I don’t want to shortchange any of your other stuff, some of your deer and your big white tails and goat in Colorado. But of course we’re all, when you draw a sheep tag, it’s something kind of next level. And we know you have an affinity for those, you yourself. And so yeah, you’ve, you’ve paid your dues and earned some the long way. And then when it comes to sheep and things like that, you know, boom, they just happen outta nowhere.

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Yeah. I think that was it Adam too. I, I drew that sheep tag kind of early in the application process in Colorado. And man, when you get one of those early, it just, that’s a hook. Yeah. You’re

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Like, oh,

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That was

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True. Yeah, this can happen. Yeah, this really does

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Happen. Yeah, this can happen. And, and just the experience I had on that is one I’ll, I’ll I may never have another experience that dramatic and just all the, all the stuff that goes along with sheep hunts and that was the hook and it’s kind of been been there ever since.

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Well, and we came, Roger, I know a lot of people know you out there, you know, more so than you might think. And a lot of it was you’ve, you’ve helped guide and guided a lot of different sheep hunters, especially there in New Mexico. Tell us a little bit about that.

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Well, you know, our, we all have a mutual friend in g in GT nine. And I, I was, I was friends with gt I guess really before I even got into the guiding business. And remember one time she, t and I were talking about Rams and neither one of us really knew anything about it. And he said, well, I’ve heard there’s some big ones up there on Wheeler Peak, and so well just, just go look, let’s go find them. And I, I just remember we were so lost as to how to access the area and it just felt like we walked for days and days and days and we saw a few sheep, but we thought we’d figured a few things out. Then over the years we began to learn how to access a little better and we were seeing bigger rounds and seeing more sheep.

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And she, she thought it was time to, to, to take a hunter. And we basically offered a guy, almost like a free hunt, a guy named Vince Schneider from Washington drew the tag. And we swung him a deal, took him in there and found a couple big rounds the, the day before season opened and Vince killed like a, a 180 2 round opening morning. And then from then on it, it just kinda snowballed in a, in a good way for GT and GTS took a lot of sheep hunters through the years and I’ve been fortunate to be able to guide some of those and just met some phenomenal guys and got to see some really big rounds hit the ground. I was telling GT the other day that I, I went quite a few years there and never saw a sub book round hit the ground. Everyone that we were seeing hit the ground was, was netting above 180.

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Yeah. That,

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That was a, that was a special time.

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Well, it was, and, and know with sheep, you know, maybe more than any other species, you got elk and deer that kind of fluctuate with drought years and things like that as they shed and grow. But sheep, they, when they come on hard, it’s time to ride the wave hard because, you know, not just because of die off potential with sheep, but but naturally as sheep as they really, their densities increase in certain places. I mean, it’s happened in the Pecos down there to where it, you know, they used to kill 180 to 180 5 or 90 rams. They’re a little bit more commonly. And then it got to where a 1 75 or 80 was a giant and you know, they killed a giant last year. But, but collectively, when sheep kind of reached a density thing, they kind of, they kind of maximized, everything’s competing for all the same resources and all that.

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And so ride the wave hard and you guys did that, you guys, you know, put Wheeler peak on the map, so to speak. And, and you know, you alluded to it that yeah, you started it off with Vince and you know, you’re not just, you put your hands on something like that and you’re not just gonna stop it, Juan, you’re gonna, you know, when it comes to sheep, you’re gonna, you’re gonna wanna keep pushing and doing and then other units like latier open up and, you know, a lot of times Yeah, you were foregoing some of your personal hunts just to be able to go down and have, have the experience to hunt rocky mountain sheep, you know, with somebody somewhere.

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Yeah. And I know you do that too, Adam. I mean, you, you, you have to guide and get into that business in order to kind of get you fixed feed that feed that feed that sheep fix. And that’s what we were doing is what we wanted to be up around those sheep and knew the only way we could do it was, you know, have, have hunters with us. And you’re right. I mean, I’ve forgone some of my hunts in order to go do that for a week or two. And it’s just, it’s been a blast. And watching those rams and, and, and just go back to some of the guys we’ve met and, and become close friends with, like Vince Snyder we mentioned, he was the, the first guy we took and Vince is a very close personal friend of mine now, and we’ve done hunts together since then. I was his guy then, but now we just, we do hunts together. Yeah. And Vince and I did an Idaho white Dale Hunt just a couple years ago together.

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Well, and his boy, I don’t know if you were there, was it just last year’s boy drew a desert sheep tag in New Mexico, you know? Right, right.

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So I’m sure GT helped him out, but that’s, that’s pretty awesome. So it, it is, you know, the people you meet on some of these hunts is, is just as you know, big as the actual individual hunt itself. But tell us, tell us another, you had a, you had another experience with getting the word successful by your name in Montana. So tell us about that, the holy grail, so to speak.

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Oh, that was, that was kind of a, a wild story. I was at work, you know, on a, a project in Texas and my, my cell phone rings, and it’s a guy that, I forgot his name, but he identifies himself as something with the Montana Fish Wildlife and Parks. And he said we had an error in our application tag reward process last year, and you guys will have to make sure I get this terminology correct, but they had awarded, they worked against a 10% allotments on the districts and not the regions. And they, they had messed up on that and they said, you actually drew a sheet tag, but our program messed it up and took the tag away because it, the program thought the, the non-resident allocation had already been met. So what they said, what, so what we’re willing to do this year is offer you a tag, you basically offer year your tag from the year before if you’re willing to take it this year. And, and you know, this is a surreal experience for me because, you know, I’m, I’m waiting on the Montana results from that year to come out and this is like a week before the results. You’re like,

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Show me, show me your id. Yeah.

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Who am I talking to here?

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What is

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This Is somebody punking me and you two, I started having you on my mind. Okay, they got me.

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We wouldn’t do that, rod. We wouldn’t, we wouldn’t do that.

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You don’t play on sheep. But I thought, what is this guy? What’s he doing? And so then it takes me a second to process it. Oh yeah, sure. Yeah. I absolutely, I’ll take it. So then as soon as I hang up the phone, I thought some, somebody got me. Yeah. So I hit call return and I called the guy back and he starts laughing. He said, I knew you would call back. I knew. He said, it’s legit. You have a Montana sheep tag. Geez. And the crazy thing about that was that the year before when I applied to that unit, I put in for one of the real tough to draw units, which I typically wouldn’t, but I put in for a tough to draw unit because it was gonna be the, the birth of my, my, my daughter. And I thought, well, I’ll just put in for one of the tougher units and ’cause I won’t draw it. And that way I couldn’t, I couldn’t do the hunt that year anyway. So then I, they awarded me the tag the next year go out there and it’s, it’s, it’s a Montana hunt. It’s a Montana rocky hunt and those usually work out pretty well killed a, a gross 180 6 type ram and

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Phenomenal man. Yeah.

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Yeah. Netted 180 4.

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Yeah. Yeah. Just a phenomenal sheep and once in lifetime type tag, something that Adam and I haven’t drawn yet, yet. We have max points, but you just keep applying and you know, like I drew a a tag this year or on the random draw, you just never know when it’s gonna happen. You just kind of blind faith. So, you know, I know my name’s in the hat at least I think it is paid my due, paying my dues. And, and then you go about hunting other species until that tech comes.

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Yeah. It was, it was truly a hunt of a lifetime. And there’s a lot of those experiences out there and they’re gonna draw somebody’s name to do it. And fortunately they got mine that year and it was just a world-class experience. But that, that unit, that year, Anaconda had unit two 13 and recovered from a dial from probably 10 or 12 years before. And it was just loaded with eight and nine year old rams. They were just everywhere. Geez. I mean, you, we’d see groups of eight and 10 rams and we kept a a a total, and I think we, we thought we saw 117 different rams on that. Wow.

00:14:51:04 –> 00:16:01:28
Pretty special. Yeah. Well, and since we are talking about sheep a little bit, just mention one of our partners who has been with us from the start, and that’s the Wild Sheep Foundation. Great organization that’s purely dedicated to putting and keeping sheep on the mountain. They’ve, they’ve put millions of dollars, in fact, over $13 million into wild sheep and wildlife restoration the last three years. Their mission is to enhance wild sheep populations and promote scientific wildlife management and educate the public on sustainable use and conservation benefits of hunting. So big advocates of Wild Sheep Foundation. And obviously we, we had Gray Thornton on Yeah, good. Just prior the, which is the c e o and president of was Sheep Foundation. If you wanna go back in the archives and listen to that podcast, we did that with Gray right before the Sheep show, first of the year 2018. And if you want more information becoming a life member, summit life member or regular member of We Sheep Foundation, go to wild sheep foundation.org. Maybe let’s dive into your, you know, being from, I don’t know if you call Arkansas the Midwest, whatever I call it the east, but you probably call it West Alligator

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00:16:04:08 –> 00:16:05:10
Razorback Nation.

00:16:06:03 –> 00:16:07:14
Yeah. It’s, it’s Razorback

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Where they have, where they, where they where every puddle of water all of a sudden begats fish. I never, like, I’ve never even noticed that I go out there and visit Raj and he’s just go proceeds to tell me that when you, when you build a pond, you don’t have to put fish in it. They fish come and I’m like, how do they come? He’s like, oh, the eggs on bird’s feet and stuff. And I’m like, you’re crapping me. I mean, out here we stock ponds, you know what I mean?

00:16:30:08 –> 00:16:33:18
Yeah. And they and they dry up in the summer and you have to redo it next year.

00:16:33:19 –> 00:16:40:29
That’s right. They all die. No. Roger says no, if you, if you just take a little caterpillar and make yourself a pond, pretty soon they’ll be fishing it. Right, Roger.

00:16:41:02 –> 00:16:54:29
Yeah. Yeah. That’s the way it happens. And your, your boys got to see that firsthand. I don’t know how many fish we caught that day. We just lost count. The, the boys, the, the desert dwellers were just kind of shocked with the amount of fish that we could catch. So,

00:16:54:29 –> 00:17:10:07
Well yeah, you’re like, well, which pond should we go to? It rained yesterday. There’s a pond down the road. We could go over there. So anyway, as Adam was talking, let’s dive in. Maybe, you know, from, from your perspective on maybe some of your, your philosophy on, on these applications and tags Yeah.

00:17:10:09 –> 00:18:04:26
That as well as, as, you know, you alluded to it earlier, you know, the newness for people. And that’s partly what we, what why we wanted to have you on today is we realized that living in the West, you’re gonna understand your home state Well, and all the neighboring states, perhaps fairly well, but you’re not a resident. I mean, you do have some unique draw hunts near you and you know, you even have elk and things like that. But for the most part, you know, we’re talking about every state you’re applying for, you’re a non-resident and it’s, it’s not even close. It’s a two day drive maybe to get to you. Yeah. You know, that’s for the most part. So talk through that philosophy so that other listeners that are maybe in that same boat, like how do they, how did you start breaking it down? You’ve been doing it for 20 years now, but how do you, how did you approach it? How did you overcome the, the, I don’t know, fear is too strong a word, but fear of the newness of just getting started and like, how, why do I need to do this? Or why should I or do I even try? Yeah.

00:18:05:01 –> 00:19:04:17
Well I, you know, initially I think just the confusion around how do I go hunt in the west, you know, how do I get a tag? How do I start? And obviously you guys have helped thousands of guys through the years or more in, in the East with that. Just try to figure out how does it even start? And the first is, you gotta understand that you have to get a tag. Most eastern hunters are used to, well, if I want to go hunting in West Virginia or Kentucky, I, I just go there and I buy a license the day before the seasons and I hunt. And that license may have two or three deer tags on it. Yeah. And a bear tag and a Turkey tag. And it’s just so different in the West is that you have to have a strategy and you have to have planning beforehand. And I think that’s what a lot of the Eastern guys just don’t know. ’cause I’ll have a lot of guys say, well, yeah, I want to go to Colorado and hunt a big, big mule deer. Okay, well you, you need to start planning now. ’cause you, you can probably do that and 2030, you know,

00:19:06:08 –> 00:19:10:14
Roger, but you wanna, he me,

00:19:10:22 –> 00:19:25:20
If you want to get one of those areas, you know, where you have a, a chance at a reasonable, you know, 180 inch type deer, you need eight or nine points. Well, you can’t decide you’re going to do that this fall. It’s you, you better have a eight or 10 year plan.

00:19:25:27 –> 00:19:36:07
Take some thought. Take some thought. And for, you know, to be able to, you know, start gaining points and, and develop an application strategy and, and, and then go through the processes.

00:19:36:24 –> 00:19:56:00
Yeah. And that’s, that’s kind of what I started doing back then. And it was kind of trial and error. And then, you know, I was doing it through, I was getting some information from a, an old guy in Montana about some of the sheep units. My attraction was more on the sheep. Initially. I was getting some information from him. You’re

00:19:56:00 –> 00:19:57:00
Talking Ron Jenkins?

00:19:57:27 –> 00:20:05:03
No. Oh. Different guy at that time. It was, it’s not the Hawk or Elvin

00:20:05:07 –> 00:20:05:17

00:20:05:24 –> 00:20:06:26
Elvin Hawkins from

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Because he’s still around. I I think he is.

00:20:11:20 –> 00:20:43:15
Well he was not a, he was not a young guy back then. So I just remember talking to him and you, you just basically call him up on the phone and he’d say, yeah, apply here, here and here. That was kind of it. Yeah. And good luck. But I, I just remember him telling me all those years ago, he said, I, I’ve never known a guy that got committed to getting a sheep tag that didn’t get one. He said, if they’re committed to getting one and they’re committed to playing the application game, he said, I’ve never known a guy that didn’t get to go sheet hunting. And

00:20:43:15 –> 00:21:02:19
I would just say 20 years ago or whenever that was true, probably more true. True. Yeah. Yeah. That would be hard for Jason and I today to say, without crossing both our fingers under our desks when we said it. Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. It’s, it’s just a different, I mean the, the western game, more people have caught on, or just the

00:21:03:17 –> 00:21:05:05
Finite resource sounds

00:21:05:05 –> 00:21:29:06
Great. It’s just the Exactly. The sheep numbers are no more than they were 20 years ago, generally speaking collectively. So, and obviously as more states and more states have gone to draw hunting on their general season stuff, even deer, elk in places, you’ve got that naturally, well, I gotta start applying in other states because my own state, I can’t just buy a deer tag in Utah or Colorado anymore. Like you could 20 years ago. So.

00:21:29:12 –> 00:21:51:19
Well, but you would think he, he does have a point. People, you know, you do, you, if you’re committed, you’ve got a decent chance. I mean, you’ve got but committed means that 22 years in my point, you know, in my case down here in Arizona and, and Adam and I have drawn our Oregon and a few other tags. But I mean, you gotta be committed. It’s a, it’s an every single year, don’t miss a year, you know, type strategy. Yeah.

00:21:51:24 –> 00:21:53:22
It’s just a cost to doing business. Yeah.

00:21:54:05 –> 00:22:45:26
I think the commitment has stepped up. ’cause I, I remember another thing he said is he said if you apply in every state you can apply to, it’s reasonable to think that you’ll get a sheep tag within a 10 year period. I don’t think that’s the case anymore. No, I think it’s not. I mean, it’s not even close to that 30, 30 or 40. Yeah. I think if, if you go with, go to that same philosophy now and apply to all those states, I think it’s reasonable to think you will get a sheet tag in your lifetime, in your lifetime. That, that’s what we tell people. I don’t think a guy can look, look for any more than that. So knowing that you don’t play this game to get a sheep tag, a sheet tag is a, a byproduct of the application process that’s icing on the cake. So you play the game for deer, antelope, and elk. Yeah. And if you get a goat tag, a sheep tag or a moose tag, that, that’s icing on the cake.

00:22:46:08 –> 00:23:06:21
That’s generally true. Yeah. And if you started 20 something years ago, like you, and in some of these states where, where that may have put you, let’s say Wyoming, if you started in the first year in Wyoming, you’ve drawn a sheep tag by now. That’s right. You know, so if you, you know, had that foresight, but if you even waited five years before you started in Wyoming, you’re still

00:23:07:07 –> 00:23:08:02
Trying to get a

00:23:08:02 –> 00:23:23:20
Sheep tag in a drift spot. You know what I mean? Yeah. You know, you’re in the random draw, but you know, you’re, that mentality. You’re talking about, like you said, you how many, how many tags are, you know, in, in the collective western states. How many tags do you think you’ve applied for a year? Generally 30 or 40, or,

00:23:24:05 –> 00:23:43:24
I keep a pretty detailed record of it. I’ve since, since 98 or 98, I’ve kept Excel spreadsheet and I, it’s routinely around 40 a year. Yeah. And I will typically draw two or three of those per year. But there’s some tags in there that I expect to draw. I expect to draw

00:23:44:02 –> 00:23:44:24
Eastern plant

00:23:45:12 –> 00:23:46:04
Colorado deer. Yeah,

00:23:46:04 –> 00:23:46:22
Yeah, yeah. I expect

00:23:46:22 –> 00:23:47:16
Something. You do draw

00:23:47:29 –> 00:24:10:10
Plains white tail. I do that alm I do that about every year. I expect to draw a Kansas tag. I expect to draw a few antelope tags. You know, I, I expect to draw Iowa white tail every third year. Yeah. But then throughout that I sprinkled in about every other, almost every other tag I could draw. Yeah. I’ve drawn elk, sheep, goat.

00:24:10:25 –> 00:24:15:11
Jeez. We did, we did draw that terrible, terrible elk tag in Colorado

00:24:15:27 –> 00:24:17:14
Elk. Oh yeah. That

00:24:17:14 –> 00:24:22:17
Was a miserable that Roger made me go on and waste a bunch of points on a hot mother,

00:24:22:17 –> 00:24:25:18
If I remember. Well, Roger’s got a little different take on who, who

00:24:26:01 –> 00:24:26:10

00:24:26:13 –> 00:24:26:29
Who would draw

00:24:26:29 –> 00:24:31:10
From that? Lemme moderate this for a minute, Jason, be quiet. Let Roger let’s talk for a second.

00:24:32:15 –> 00:24:32:28
What did

00:24:32:28 –> 00:24:34:06
Jason, what did Jason get you

00:24:34:06 –> 00:24:35:06
Into? Oh, it sucked.

00:24:36:07 –> 00:24:36:16

00:24:36:16 –> 00:25:00:11
Well, we, we decided that we, it was time to cash in all these Colorado points that were just burning a hole in our pocket. We had to do something. So we decided to go muzzle loaders. So we all the angst and all that are buying long range muzzle loaders and getting those set up with the weird sites where we could shoot loose powder and open sites and all that. Then we, we go out to this unit and unit 40

00:25:00:17 –> 00:25:01:10
Just throw out

00:25:01:10 –> 00:25:04:18
There unit. Yeah, yeah. It’s, it’s unit 40. Yeah. Go hunt if you want.

00:25:06:17 –> 00:25:06:25

00:25:07:27 –> 00:25:28:22
Well, you know, we were, we obviously there’s great bulls on private land and unit 40, but you know, it’s, it’s us working class guys. We’re, we’re doing the public stuff and it was a grind and we thought we’d, we’d figured a few things out and we’d got there a week before season and, you know, we saw a couple of really nice bulls, Jason bulls that we either one of us would’ve shot.

00:25:28:27 –> 00:25:29:11
Oh yeah.

00:25:29:17 –> 00:25:30:00
And, and

00:25:30:09 –> 00:25:30:29
Bit big bulls.

00:25:31:11 –> 00:25:49:22
Yeah. Really nice bulls. But then as, like I said, day or two before the season, the weather started turning and I think Jason didn’t we see like 102, this was the second week of September. And the weather got the, the temperatures got above a hundred degrees.

00:25:49:25 –> 00:25:50:22
It was unbelievable.

00:25:51:21 –> 00:25:55:05
So all, all the elk were moving back up on the mesa

00:25:55:12 –> 00:25:58:07
Land. Well, and then remember the black bear hunters coming in and Oh,

00:25:58:26 –> 00:26:03:04
Bear hunters everywhere. It was like the orange Army had an invaded,

00:26:03:05 –> 00:26:03:28
They had rifles.

00:26:04:09 –> 00:26:05:02
They had rifles.

00:26:05:02 –> 00:26:18:16
They had rifles. Yeah. So not only we had hunters traits down every valley. We had orange in every direction. I remember, you know, your dad was there. Garth was like, turn the tag in, turn the tag in. You gotta turn the tag in. Oh, we’re gonna make this work. Well,

00:26:19:07 –> 00:26:19:20
We didn’t,

00:26:20:09 –> 00:26:23:19
It didn’t work. We ate it. We ate both those tags.

00:26:25:15 –> 00:26:28:19
That’s all I could, if you wouldn’t have been there. I’d went home early, Raj,

00:26:30:11 –> 00:26:35:16
You’re like, oh, I only seen keeping him here. Is he drove here from Arkansas. Oh. And we’re gonna, we’ll

00:26:35:16 –> 00:26:40:16
Stick it there. Well, and I had the camp trailer, so if I go Rod’s just gonna have to go shack up in Grand Junction or something.

00:26:41:15 –> 00:27:12:29
And I just remember we, we split up and like you went to one side of the unit and I went to the other and I was sleeping in that little one man hillenburg. And there, there were bears everywhere. I thought, well why are there bears all around my tent? And there’s hunters everywhere. Something’s not lining up here. They’re not killing these things. And, but we split up, went to opposite sides of the unit, trying to find elk. And there were elk there. But they’d moved back up to that private land. I, I think 40 still holds potential. Oh yeah. A great potential. But it does

00:27:13:05 –> 00:27:19:07
Tough challenge September 9th and 190 to a hundred degrees every day. It was just a little rough. That’s all.

00:27:19:17 –> 00:27:24:02
Yeah. Yeah. So, but we learned from it and, and got a, a lot of good laughs.

00:27:24:06 –> 00:27:42:02
Well, and that’s when we started really working. So that was one of those, you know, like onyx maps would’ve helped us a ton back then we were reading maps really heavy and, you know, latitude, longitude, you know, figuring out public access. And I mean, we learned a lot on it. There’s no question about that. How

00:27:42:02 –> 00:27:49:20
The sun was cast in your shadow and yet you were trying to figure out how you were, Hey, our shadow’s pointing this way, Roger, I think we’re on public.

00:27:50:17 –> 00:28:04:05
It was a, it was a confusing, it’s a confusing unit to hunt unfolding maps, folding maps back up. And the technology is just that, that hunt hasn’t been that long ago. No, but the technology has changed so much now.

00:28:04:05 –> 00:28:11:01
It’s like, it’s like trail cameras. I mean we, you know, they came out with digital cameras it seems like in oh seven ish, oh 6, 0 7, 10

00:28:11:01 –> 00:28:12:06
Years or 12. It’s about we,

00:28:12:13 –> 00:28:17:18
I mean, what the change we’ve seen in the stuff. I mean, it would’ve been nice to have it back then,

00:28:18:07 –> 00:29:33:10
You know, and that, you know, that’s, that’s a lot of stuff that like, you know, go back to the question a while ago about the eastern hunter. I mean, some of the stuff that the eastern hunter, the guy that knows in the east, he, he can take advantage of in the west too. These trail cameras. I mean I that’s, I know some of the regulations are changing on that by the day. But it, it offers some great opportunities in the, in the west too. I, I an example of, we’ve, we used some trail cameras, I think it was two years ago. We hunted public land in Kansas and we just went out western Kansas and hunted all the, just vast open prairie land. And it, it was a lot of, it’s just public walk-in stuff. And we put some trail cameras up on these trails in the, we were hunting an area that had zero trees. There’s no trees and and that’s odd for a white tail hunter. I mean, you could, as far as you can look in every direction there, you cannot see a tree. You can’t even hardly see a bush. And, and, and we’re hunting this, this grow up, these growed up c r p fields. Yeah. And we’d have to put a trail camera on a fence post or a, I remember us putting a, a, a brick block beside a trail so we could see what was coming through across this road at night.

00:29:33:14 –> 00:29:35:04
It’s amazing what lives out there, huh?

00:29:35:12 –> 00:29:50:13
Yeah. And we did a lot of riding around and late in the afternoon, early in the mornings and kind of got a, a gauge of what was there and, and what to hold out for. And we were seeing 80, 90, a hundred deer in the, in the evenings.

00:29:50:13 –> 00:29:51:29
Geez. Just by g glassing.

00:29:52:14 –> 00:29:56:11
Just by g glassing riding around a g glassing, which is, you know, using the west

00:29:57:01 –> 00:29:58:14
Technique. That’s, that’s how, how we do without here.

00:29:58:14 –> 00:31:08:03
That’s how you guys, that’s how you guys are used to hunting. The guy from the east doesn’t really know to just use his glasses. And, you know, that land is so flat that what we would do is we’d stop the truck and get up in the back of the truck and just glass. And you, most of the time, all you could see was their head and there would be in these c r p fields. And we were seeing all these bucks and we realized, hey, we can kill a good respectable white tail here. You know, a 140 inch white tail. It’s kind of what, you know, it’s what we were seeing that was the best type bucks we were seeing. So we, we can kill that type of buck here on public land. And we are scouting these areas. And we found them. I mean, and I killed one the, the opening morning of the season. And then my buddy that went with me, he never really hunted in that type of stuff. And we betted a good buck in one of those c r p fields and we’re pro probably washing from a mile off and thought, well he betted in this grass, so there’s, there’s no marker how to, how to get to this bot. You know, you can’t, you can’t get anything to mark yourself by where, you know, you get close to him. So we realized, hey, we can count fence posts and we count like 170 fence posts. Oh

00:31:08:05 –> 00:31:08:17
My god.

00:31:09:00 –> 00:31:27:14
And, and, and we said, okay, we’re, we’ll get, we’ll crawl down these fence posts and when we get the fence posts 130, we’re gonna stand up way and see if that bus stands up in that grass. And my buddy’s a big guy, you know, he, he let, he kinda leaves a deep track. He, he’s a big guy. And

00:31:27:17 –> 00:31:28:23
That’s about like Mera.

00:31:29:25 –> 00:32:10:03
No, no. Well, anyway, we’re crawling through this grass and it’s like eight degrees that morning. Big boy’s sweating big time. He’s just, it’s pouring off of him. But we gotta stay under about this, the 2 24 inch grass. And so we’re counting fence posts. We’re crawling, we’re crawling, we get to like 130 fence posts. And I said, okay, we’re gonna stand up. And he, he’s with, we know the buck’s with a dough and that the dough will stand up and I think he’ll stand up beside her. So we keep standing up, we wait and we just start inching closer to fence post number one 70. And finally the buck stands up when we’re 20 yards from him. And the guy shoots him and he’s, you know, a mid one forties top buck Wow. On public land in western

00:32:10:03 –> 00:32:14:24
Kansas. You also, the walk in the walk-in stuff’s worth it. Yeah. I mean, good stuff. It was great. So

00:32:14:24 –> 00:32:37:26
What, and you know, and I know I, I’ve got a lot of friends that live in the east and most of those guys, they have hunting leases and they, they’ll mount 130, 140 inch deer. You know, that’s, that’s a real trophy where they come from. And I, I’ve kind of maybe gone out a limb and say this, but I, I think there’s 130 or 140 inch tight box on almost e every, every

00:32:37:26 –> 00:32:38:03

00:32:38:24 –> 00:32:50:19
Every track of public land in, in the west that holds white tails. Yeah. And, and they’re, and they’re, they’re fun to hunt. It’s a different experience, but it is different. These,

00:32:50:19 –> 00:33:02:20
These, these, I talked, I talked to a guy the other day that’s only hunting public land type stuff or state land or walk-in areas in Kansas and he’s running 60 trail cameras and it’s unbelievable the bucks he’s killing.

00:33:03:10 –> 00:33:33:26
Oh yeah. And we’ve done, we’ve been able to do the same thing through the years and I’ve kind of got a little, a cooperative almost of, there’s four of us and we share a lot of notes in Kansas, Nebraska, and Iowa. And we’ve, through the years, we got to kind of counting it up other day and hunting public land and some private that we’ve gained access to the four of us so far. We have killed over 20 bucks that score over one 70 in, in that area in the last few years. Geez.

00:33:34:07 –> 00:33:46:06
You know, so it’s when you talked about western style hunting in Kansas, remember that hunt we went on in ca over there just a couple years ago and I got tired of sitting in the blind and started driving around a glass. Yeah,

00:33:46:17 –> 00:33:46:25

00:33:47:07 –> 00:34:00:12
I was either that or leave. I said, I’m, I’m done sitting in a blind and seeing nothing. I’m done with that. And so I got in the truck and I’m like, well I guess I had to glass my way outta here. And Roger doesn’t know it, but I’m headed home and, and I ended up

00:34:00:26 –> 00:34:04:14
Yet again, he leaves me stranded on a hunt. You see a familiar theme.

00:34:05:06 –> 00:34:12:25
Yeah. And anyway, I smoked a buck that morning. I was, I was done, I was done sitting in those blinds. I don’t know how you guys

00:34:12:29 –> 00:34:38:07
Do it. Well that’s, you know, you’re talking about things that are new from your, your perspective and people even further east from, from where you live. Whitetails, we might as well be hunting camels, Jason and I when we start talking hunting whitetails, because we’re, we’re gonna hunt ’em. Like I’ve only killed one, it was in Montana just on a, probably a flute. ’cause there’s a neat any deer tag up there, but Oh, that’ll be neat. And let’s shoot one of them and beat

00:34:38:07 –> 00:34:38:19
For mama,

00:34:39:04 –> 00:34:41:11
You know? Yeah. Back at the time it was, yeah. So

00:34:41:17 –> 00:34:41:29
This college

00:34:41:29 –> 00:34:44:04
Days Yeah, it was college days. Yeah. It was close.

00:34:44:07 –> 00:35:11:18
Yeah. It, it definitely changed. Takes a change in philosophy, you know, and, and from the mule deer hunter changing to the white tail or the, the eastern white tail guys changing to the west, whether, whether they’re hunting white tail or mule deer in the west. It is a different philosophy. And yeah, through the years I’ve had really good success in Eastern Colorado and you know, there’s nothing out there there, there’s no cover, there’s minimal habitat. I mean you’re just, well there, I guess there’s a lot of habitat, but you just, there’s no trees.

00:35:11:28 –> 00:35:14:16
Not the traditional hardwood habitat that east

00:35:14:20 –> 00:35:17:17
Trees, the one tree that’s out there, you you’re sitting in a tree stand in it.

00:35:18:00 –> 00:36:11:18
Yeah. That’s, that’s kind of it. And but that, that’s a different philosophy for us guys from the east to go to. And I, I’ve grown accustomed to it through the years now because I’ve done it, but it, it’s a different way of thinking. And I just, I mentioned those white tail hunts. ’cause I think the, the eastern hunter is, is there’s a lot of opportunities for like a, what I would call almost like a transition type hunt. You know, if, if you’re not into going out west and paying a lot of money for an outfitted elk hunt and you’re not into hiking for eight or nine days on a, on a tough mountain hunt. There’s a lot of great hunts in the, in the west that are for, for white tails or mule deer that, that are more like a transition hunt. Yeah. You know, you can use some of your eastern tactics, but you can still access, get good access to some of these areas for white tail antelope, antelope’s,

00:36:11:18 –> 00:36:30:22
Another one, antelope, mule deer, white tail, high prairie type hunts, you know, Eastern Montana, Wyoming, Colorado. You know, even, you know, those three probably the most, you know, and they are the closest states you’re gonna get if you’re an eastern. Yeah. You know, a lot of people hunt those from, you know, the Midwest, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Dakotas and all that, you know, hitting those. ’cause they’re closer.

00:36:31:19 –> 00:36:52:06
And the guys from the east coast, you know, they, they can, they can drive that in a day, day and a half. Where some of those guys from the east coast, if they’re going drive across and carry all their gear for an Idaho hunt or something like that, you know, there’s great white tail on public land in Idaho. But that’s, that’s a, a long haul from somebody from South Carolina. That’s,

00:36:52:08 –> 00:37:08:20
I think the, that’s brutal. What you kind of alluded to on this, this your philosophy on these application and tags. I heard you say 40 tags on a spreadsheet, by the way, this spreadsheet, do you, do you let Michelle, your wife, see, see this spreadsheet? Does she know what goes into these tags and they’ll the expense to go along with it?

00:37:09:28 –> 00:37:17:23
No, Michelle’s not real, real, not real versed on that spreadsheet, I would say. Well, she,

00:37:18:17 –> 00:37:22:22
She might ask to see, to have, you know, executive privilege to check it out here.

00:37:22:29 –> 00:37:46:17
You know, my wife well and you know her well, you know, she’s not gonna miss a dollar that escapes the, the buckman the Buckman house. Now she’s, she’s got that whole deal figured out. I said, you know, I I would always tell her, well yeah, but Michelle, I get the money back when I don’t draw the tag. She said, yeah, you get the money back, but it’s like $110 less. How is this working? You know? Yeah.

00:37:48:01 –> 00:37:53:04
$10 and 23 cents Rod. Yeah. Yeah. That’s, it’s, that’s coming outta your Coke fund. Yeah.

00:37:53:20 –> 00:38:11:16
But now she we’re, I know the three of us guys here are all blessed with supportive wives Oh yeah. To do this. And Michelle’s never really, she’s actually gone just the opposite on a lot of that. ’cause she’ll say, you mean you’re only doing three hunts this year? I, I, I thought you would do more. Oh well thanks baby. I’ll Yeah,

00:38:11:16 –> 00:38:13:28
Maybe I’ll find one just a minute. Just gimme five minutes.

00:38:14:27 –> 00:38:34:04
Lemme call Jason about, yeah. So, so it, let’s talk about wrapping your head around that many applications for the eastern hunter. You know, it’s a, like you said, you’re states back east are giving people tags, you know, whether you’re hitting deer with cars every day, you know, and yeah, you can’t get enough tags like, you know, and it’s totally different in the

00:38:34:05 –> 00:39:45:22
How do you in the west, one thing we get a lot, Roger, and talk maybe from your perspective, we get a lot of guys when we’re starting to talk with ’em about first playing the west, they’re scared that they’re gonna draw too many tags. And so you start talking to ’em about playing for six, eight, or 10 states because they say, I want to get aggressive. I want a long-term plan. You start talking about, you know, they say, Hey, are, you know, sheep’s a dream and you know, I wanna apply for those and the ones that make se states that make sense and but mule deer and elk, I wanna hunt the classic western species, which those two, maybe an antelope thrown in. Those are the ones that kind of, kind of come to mind. And then they start freaking out when you start talking about, all right, you got New Mexico doesn’t have a point system, you should definitely start there because hey, you could draw the first year, you gotta same mods as anybody else. Same with in Idaho. And then you start talking about, well, Colorado and Wyoming, you can generally draw rather, you know, rather quickly if your trophy’s criteria isn’t off the charts right outta the gate, you can go every three to five years or two years, or one year if you want. And then they start saying, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I, I don’t know, maybe I’m just, maybe I can’t, I can’t have that much out there wondering if I’m, I can’t do more than one hunt a year, two hunts a year, pretty

00:39:45:22 –> 00:39:46:23
Soon it’s click pretty

00:39:46:23 –> 00:40:13:18
Soon. They’re like, ah, I’m done. You know, and they’re, they’re scared that they’re gonna draw too much. So from your perspective, how do you, and I mean, Jason and I could answer what we would tell somebody, but how do you manage that? You said earlier, you know, you’re gonna draw maybe two tags a year, you know, based on what you know you want based on, you know, easier to draw or predictable tags. And then how do you go about still throwing the line in for 40, 40

00:40:13:20 –> 00:40:23:07
A year? And you’ve, and I know you’ve dealt with this a bit, Roger, this question Adam’s talking about, because you’ve done some of these seminars and whatnot, and so you’ve dealt a lot with it. But what do you, what do you say to these guys?

00:40:23:25 –> 00:41:16:06
Well draw drawing too many tags is really never, ever an issue. And that, that’s what you gotta get across with these guys. And okay, let’s just say you put in for that many tags and on the, let’s say all the stars line up and you, you, you draw too many tags. Well, I’m willing to eat a Kansas whitetail tag if I drew a New Mexico sheep tag. That’s just the way it works. Yeah. But the odds of, of you having to eat those tags because of something is just slim. I, I’ve had one tag that I drew that I, I just could not go on for other things. And, and 22 years it was one tag and that was a New Mexico barbery sheep one and I, I put in for 40 and there was one tag that I couldn’t do. And I, I don’t just go crazy on the hunch, you know, I, I don’t do seven or eight hunt.

00:41:16:06 –> 00:41:19:19
You’re not, not, you’re not applying for aunt in every western state of every species.

00:41:20:17 –> 00:42:27:00
No, but you know, I, I will, I will play in the, the hunts that I’m pretty sure that I will draw that year. Like if, if I know that I’m gonna draw an Iowa white tail, a Colorado white tail, and I’m gonna cash in some points somewhere and say like a Nevada, or you know, Wyoming, okay, there’s my three hunts. Okay. So there’s the three hunts that I’m pretty sure I will do in, let’s just say in 2019, that’s the three hunts that I will do. Okay, well, I will put in for the tougher units on sheep and like Arizona, Nevada, knowing that I probably wouldn’t even draw a lesser unit, but I put in for those real tough units and saying, okay, if I draw that tag, it’s worth me eating a Colorado whitetail or an Iowa whitetail tag. But it’s, it’s ne one time, one time in 22 years. That’s right. Has that been an issue? Well, you just, so I do plan for it, but if it, if it happens and I have to eat a, a tag every once in a while, it’s just price. It’s kind of part of the game. It, but

00:42:27:00 –> 00:43:20:13
I, well, and there’s, like you said, there’s the pri if, if that happens, it’s the prioritization factor comes into play. You draw a Gila elk tag in the rutt versus a, you had a, you know, over the counter, you know, Colorado hunt is a backup plan or a, you know, an average white tail or a barber sheet. Yeah. Give those up and go do that. The other thing that a lot of these states have, not all of them, but about three or four of them, you know, Utah, Colorado, Nevada, Arizona, all have mechanisms in place for you to return a tag and get your points packed. And so in those states, green light central, go ahead. The worst thing, get a backup plan. In those days, the worst thing you’re gonna be out is maybe a permit fee, which is way, you know, worth losing than, you know, 10 or 15 years of points, which are far more valuable than a permit fee.

00:43:20:14 –> 00:44:05:28
So you’ve got mechanisms in place. But, but we hear it all the time too, as people say, I just wanna build points for 10 years and then I wanna draw sheep tags and, and we tell people, you just, you just crossed 10 years off of your life that having the ability to have lightning strike and you get lucky, that’s all you did. And with sheep especially, I, we try to encourage people, keep your name in the water should not, not keep your line in the water. Should not be, yeah. Should not be even a points only option for, for tags like sheep only unless, you know, I’ve got a family wedding or I’ve got a once in lifetime overseas vacation Yeah. With my family or something that, you know, consumes three to four weeks of your fall, right. During a sheep season or something like that.

00:44:05:29 –> 00:44:33:06
You know, you, you were saying you knew you had a, even the year you knew you were gonna be having one of your children, you, you didn’t do points only fortunate, fortunately you threw it in for one of the better units in the state and it all worked out. You didn’t draw that year and the next year they called you and say, Hey, you should have drawn. And so you, you went hunting a year when your daughter was a year old. You know what I mean? It all worked out. And if you would’ve just done points only, well you couldn’t do it back there in Montana then, but, but, but

00:44:33:08 –> 00:44:33:20

00:44:33:26 –> 00:44:34:28
In another state, other

00:44:34:28 –> 00:44:48:25
State, if you would be shocked at how many guys ask Adam and I apply for points only in sheep, you know, and it’s just, I mean, it’s good for drawing odds and it’s, I mean, it’s good for that for other guys, but it’s just, it’s, it’s a little crazy, you know, no deer,

00:44:48:26 –> 00:44:49:02

00:44:49:08 –> 00:45:02:11
If you, if you wanna just buy points and someday bank that you’re gonna draw a sheep tag, you’re, you’re gonna, you’re just gonna be disappointed. Disappointed for decades. It, it’s probably, it’ll pro in today’s time that probably will never, ever work out for you. Yeah. It,

00:45:03:02 –> 00:45:15:02
It might, but you just, you cross off that element of luck too many years now when it comes to deer, elk, and antelope. That’s one thing we can dovetail this back in the conversation of, yeah. Of drawing too many tags. You know, you,

00:45:15:21 –> 00:45:25:25
I’ve got extensive backup plans and now we’re going, oh, maybe we have too many backup plans. You know what I mean? Over the counter Idaho. And I got excited and I already bought the tag. You know what I mean? And just,

00:45:26:10 –> 00:46:06:24
You can do the points only, which is, you know, for those of you, most people know what a points only, it’s just a, Hey, my name’s I, I paid my money. I, I went through the motions and, and sent in their fees and all that, but I had no chance to draw Dear Elk and antelope. Those make a lot more sense. And especially in the states that are, you know, maybe somewhat predictable when you’re gonna draw the Colorado, the, the Wyomings, you know, states like that. But there’s mechanisms in place and that’s what, I guess we want to, you know, let everybody know that you’ve drawn too many tags and we’re, when you say drawn too many tags, that would be like drawing three to five tags. That’s not, oh, I drew 30 outta 40 tags where that could never

00:46:06:24 –> 00:46:11:02
Happen. Drawing too many tags is like making too much money. It’s not possible.

00:46:12:07 –> 00:46:55:07
And, and I think, you know, you just, these guys, they, they need to see that if you, on the rare occasion that you do have to eat one odds are if you drew that many tags, some of those are gonna be tags. It’s gonna be pretty easy for you to either turn back in or eat the tags. They’re just, you, you’re gonna have some options. But I think also a lot of that plays into your application strategy, like I mentioned with my daughter being born. And, but you know, a lot of that was just trial and error for me through the years, really screwing some of that up. And I know you guys can offer that to a lot of, especially to the guys that you apply because like, like this year, I, I really, I know of a, of a giant buck in Iowa that I would, would like to hunt, but I also knew of one in Colorado.

00:46:55:21 –> 00:47:39:04
So I, I’m wanting to hunt that Colorado buck and I applied for that unit in Colorado. I’m thinking, okay, Colorado, when, when are you gonna post results? When are you gonna post results? And I’m waiting for the last second thinking, okay, you’re gonna post your results and that way I’ll know. ’cause those two dates would, they would lay over each other and I would, I’d sit and waiting on Colorado to post while I, while I was waiting, I had not applied to Iowa. Yes. So some years you can just, you can think, well I know I probably will draw this, but I can wait ’cause these draws are spread out over staggered three, three month period now. So, and that’s where you guys can offer, especially to the eastern guy who doesn’t understand how these are staggered and say, okay, we’re good if you, you won’t draw too many ’cause we’ve got a strategy for you on

00:47:39:04 –> 00:47:50:05
That. You draw one out of the gate and you’re like, that’s it. And I’m gonna need to book an outfitter. And that’s my financial obligation for the year. Yeah. And points only from there for the rest of the year. That’s when points only starts making sense.

00:47:50:05 –> 00:48:38:29
The one thing drawing too many tags does, I mean the one time it does kind of happen, I guess is like my kids, you, you start getting your kids involved pretty soon. They’re drawing tags. I mean, we got tags coming out our pockets everywhere. It’s crazy. This particular year, and it was, a lot of it was by design gaining them points over the years. And I’m seeing, watching Colton, it’s gonna turn 18 in December and all of a sudden I’m like, it is time to go hunting. He needs to just quit school and go hunting. And so, you know, and I’ve, and we’ve had a few guys in our members license app. We, we only charge a hundred dollars for youth, for guys to apply their kids, you know, as far as our fee. And, and you know, we’ve had a few of ’em where they’ve got, their kids have drawn to special tags into Mexico and this, that and the other. And so it does, it does get a little bit busy with, with kids and whatnot, so Oh

00:48:38:29 –> 00:48:39:06

00:48:39:14 –> 00:49:30:29
But well, but it, but it also brings up a good point, that point of staggering, you know, we’re starting, we’re talking about, you know, January 1st through June 12th or 13th to Arizona sheep and deer. I mean, it’s six month period that we’re talking about. So if you’re on top of it, the magazine we put out breaks it down each month. You can, especially in the states like you did a Wyoming elk or an Arizona Elk that you think you might draw, you’re gonna know by the end of February and early March in those states and stay away from other stuff from there on. That’s right. So there’s other mechanisms in place. But the point is, get started, make a plan. Everybody’s wishlist is a little bit different, but, but what I guess I would throw out there too, Roger, and you, you, you maybe add your thoughts to this 22 years ago or whenever you think you started, how do you think your wishlist has changed in 22 years?

00:49:30:29 –> 00:50:12:26
Because what I, I guess where I’m going is if you think there’s any possibility you want to hunt mul there at some point, even though you don’t think now, if it’s an extra 10 bucks in a state to add it, when you only think you’re interested in elk like Arizona or Utah, just build the points for it. I don’t know. I, I’ve even had things in my, in my life, you know, that have elevated more, you know, from over the last 25 years or, or more to me, or mean a lot less to me, elk as I get older, elk mean less and less to me personally. They, you know, were new in Utah. When Jason and I were, you know, teenagers, they were spreading them all out throughout Utah. It was the new thing. We hunted mule deer and they had elk kicking outta horse trailers everywhere. They,

00:50:12:26 –> 00:50:15:13
They were doing transplants without getting approvals. They

00:50:15:20 –> 00:50:15:24

00:50:16:18 –> 00:50:16:26

00:50:17:05 –> 00:50:39:07
They were, and elk were the thing. And they were cool and they scream and oh my god, you know, and we start putting ’em for ’em come 25 years later. I, I love, I love hunting elk, but I’ll hunt deer three to four times a year, and if I have one elk tag, I’m fine or one elk tag every other year, I’m fine. So that’s kind of changed for me. It’s personal. Have you seen that change for you and how do you It’s hard.

00:50:39:10 –> 00:51:01:24
Oh, absolutely. I, I can go back and like I said, I keep mine an Excel spreadsheet and I can go back and look at those initial applications of the units. I applied to the states and there was like, I filled in, I filled out 12 applications and nine of ’em were for sheep. And so, and that was, that was going to really take me nowhere.

00:51:02:13 –> 00:51:11:10
This Excel spreadsheet, you mean you have years, the tabs at the bottom are different years and you keep track of exactly the applications you filed.

00:51:12:01 –> 00:51:15:29
Yep. I can go back and look at the units and I’ve, I’ve kept that through the years.

00:51:16:14 –> 00:51:19:22
That’s a, that’s an Excel spreadsheet of epic proportions.

00:51:21:11 –> 00:51:52:06
But I, I can go back and look and I can see that I didn’t apply to many states back then. You know, I was putting in a couple of whitetail tags and I, I was fixed on getting a sheep tag and it kind of registered because of really some of the stuff you guys were doing. Well that’s if I’m, if I’m buying that license and why should I, why should I not be getting points for this other stuff? Applying for like a, you know, a unit one elk tag in Arizona and Yep. By the way, we drew that one too, so. Yeah, that’s right. That was, I think

00:51:52:06 –> 00:51:54:22
That one went a little bit better than the Colorado hunt, if I remember

00:51:54:22 –> 00:51:59:24
Right. Yeah, that was, that was a world class hunt. Arizona does well, but,

00:52:02:01 –> 00:52:03:13
But we talked

00:52:03:13 –> 00:52:03:18
About that.

00:52:03:18 –> 00:52:37:16
Anyway, go back to your deal, Adam, your question is Yeah, mine has grown through the years where it was nine or 10, 12 applications 20 plus years ago. And I’d say a about 15 years ago was, or 2015 years ago is when it really hit its peak of 35 to 40 different animals scattered around eight or nine different states. And there’s some states for me that just, that just don’t make sense to apply. Oh yeah. But there’s also some states that don’t make sense why I have 20 points in ’em now either. Yeah. I have got a ton of points in Oregon.

00:52:37:21 –> 00:52:41:08
Adam’s what’s got a ton of, Adam’s got a ton of moose points in Montana,

00:52:41:08 –> 00:52:42:16
Max, I’ve got max points in

00:52:42:16 –> 00:52:46:18
Montana. He, every year he is like, what am

00:52:46:20 –> 00:53:01:01
I doing? And remember before now, you can do points only at least, but remember when you had to apply for a unit in Montana is the only way you could get a point. And some years there’s no, please don’t, lemme draw. Please do not. Lemme draw this moose

00:53:01:01 –> 00:53:06:13
Tag and the non-resident units you can apply for change year to year. And all of a sudden you have nothing great. He’s like, Ugh.

00:53:06:21 –> 00:53:22:20
Oh yeah, you have nothing that you really feel like you want. And you’re like, please do not gimme this moose tag. And I’m making light of it. I’d take a good moose tag, but it’s just, it’s gonna, it’s gonna happen when I’ve got, you know, maybe my desert sheep tag and an awesome elk tag and, and

00:53:22:25 –> 00:53:23:16
14 backup plants.

00:53:23:19 –> 00:53:28:02
Yeah. And, and now I’ve got a, I burned 20 points in Montana on my moose, but,

00:53:28:13 –> 00:53:41:00
And Adam, I’m, I’m very similar on that on a Wyoming moose. I’ve got enough points where someday I, I can draw, I can draw most of the moose units in Wyoming someday I will do that, but it’s just, it’s not in my plans. So

00:53:41:00 –> 00:53:51:22
Tell me right now, tell us about this goat tag you drew, we talked about your sheep up there in, well in Colorado and Montana, but tell us about the goat. You also drew a goat just on a random draw.

00:53:52:03 –> 00:54:22:26
Yeah, I did draw that and it made me think that that’s, that’s one thing that did change my application process in Montana when Adam was asking about how things changed your application thinking is I thought, well, if I ever draw a goat tag, I probably won’t apply to other states. I just wanted one goat. So I took my name outta the hat in Montana af but I drew a Colorado tag. It was, it, was it G three Jason? Yeah. I don’t even, it was, it’s not even, it’s not even available to haven’t non-resident anymore. And it was, it probably shouldn’t have been a unit then. I mean,

00:54:23:28 –> 00:54:35:22
It sucked. Mean there’s awful, they’re white and it’s above Timberline. How hard can this be? We, you drug me over there? I don’t know. I I was like, yeah, maybe I don’t better, maybe I don’t need a goat in or

00:54:35:22 –> 00:54:57:26
For, it was better for elk scouting than it was for goat hunting. And I just, the the funny thing I remember about this, Jason and I hiked way back in the middle of nowhere. I mean, we, we’ve got on our, our top end high dollar boots, our good packs, you know, and we got a rifle that’ll shoot a long way and all this, you know, we got our lightweight gear. We’re we’re, we’re big hardcore hunters,

00:54:58:09 –> 00:55:00:08
Ken tiller birds. Yeah. We’re we got it everything.

00:55:00:13 –> 00:55:07:08
We got all of our stuff. We go back there and we bust our butt for three days. We cannot see a white goat anywhere. We can’t

00:55:07:08 –> 00:55:10:18
See one. I bought a brown one. No. Any packed goats in

00:55:10:18 –> 00:55:21:14
There, dude, we saw a three 50 bull or something. I, yeah, I mean, why we didn’t take advantage of some of this stuff on over the counter Colorado tags and people are doing it, but we, and we see stuff and then we walk away and never go back.

00:55:21:27 –> 00:55:56:25
Yeah. But we, we go back in and we scout this area and we’re, we’re hunting and we’ve got blisters on our feet, we’re wore out, you know, we’ve, we’ve lost weight and all this. And I remember, I just remember this like it happened yesterday. We give up on this area. So we start hiking out and we’re spent, you know, we’re think we’re back in the middle of nowhere and I just remember, we see something coming toward us on the trail. I can see colors down through the dark, Tim all, what is this? And there’s three 70 year old women hiking in there with flip-flops and stuff on. And we think we’re pretty tough guys. And there’s three grandmas that have hoed in there to go trout fishing.

00:55:58:04 –> 00:55:58:24
That’s so true.

00:55:59:17 –> 00:56:02:26
It was kind of a humbling experience. Okay. Maybe we’re not very tough.

00:56:04:02 –> 00:56:06:18
No, we’re tough Roger we’re tough.

00:56:07:07 –> 00:56:08:07
That had me doubting

00:56:08:12 –> 00:56:38:13
Also like to give another shout out to one of our sponsors, Ken Attract Boots. We’ve used their boots for 10 plus years. Great boots well made. I’ve used their mountain guide boots myself very well, made love ’em, like the fit. They, they work hard for us on a lot of our sheet punts and whatnot. You can check out their whole line of Ken Rek boots at Ken Trek, k e n e t r e k.com or you can call ’em to place an order. 802 3 2 6 0 6 4. Little

00:56:38:13 –> 00:57:37:07
Shout out to Hillberg Berg’s been with us for a long time, since inception of Epic Outdoors, the Hillberg tents, the tent maker, they are awesome. Some, the first great tents we ever had were hillbergs and you could just roll ’em out on Tundra and you wouldn’t even get wet inside. It was like monumental, felt like a dis a major discovery. So if you’re looking for a great tent, you might contact Hillberg through www.hillberg.com/epic. So www.hilleberg.com/epic and check out some of their tents. You might order one online or you can give em a call and drop our name as well, which they’ll treat you right. They’ve treated all of our people. Right. So anyway, super appreciative of Hillberg and all that they do and some of the great products they make second to none on their, on their tents. How about, how about shooting your goat and putting it in the pack and pretending we’re naturalists walking out so we don’t get hammered vehicles

00:57:37:21 –> 00:57:39:14
So your tires don’t get slapped.

00:57:39:15 –> 00:57:43:16
That’s exactly right. I mean, they are everywhere. People are everywhere and

00:57:43:24 –> 00:58:03:20
Yeah, we do get a, we do get a goat on the other end of the unit and Jason’s ride, I mean, it, it is just people everywhere. But I, I just remember thinking Derek going to see the barrel of my rifle sticking up above my pack and it, these people are staring at us. They got their little beanies on and you know, they’re, they’re

00:58:03:20 –> 00:58:11:23
Hiking every fourteener all doing all the fourteeners. Yeah. And we’re on a fourteener, you know, shooting, shooting one of the goats that they’re watching. And

00:58:11:23 –> 00:58:31:17
There was, you know, that was before mar marijuana was legal in Colorado, but I remember smelling plenty of it going up that trail and there were just, there were people everywhere, but we finally got above them, got the goat and coming back down at, at, at least we got to do half the way out in the dark, but it was

00:58:32:04 –> 00:58:33:07
Ran the gauntlet. That’s a

00:58:33:07 –> 00:58:36:06
Different, yeah, it is a different experience and definitely a different experience.

00:58:36:14 –> 00:58:43:19
You could fit a full goat in a backpack. I can vouch for that. Well, the meat, we, we split up the meat. But anyway.

00:58:44:21 –> 00:58:45:00

00:58:45:07 –> 00:58:54:14
I just remember us getting off, getting off and that was a pretty long hike after we come out there and I remember Jason taking his boots off and your socks were covered in blood.

00:58:55:03 –> 00:58:55:12

00:58:57:08 –> 00:59:03:07
You just, we just went, we just took off and went. And I, it was late that night before we got back to the truck.

00:59:03:11 –> 00:59:07:22
That sounds like, remember that? Remember our buddy saying, can Jason go, can he really go?

00:59:09:27 –> 00:59:10:04

00:59:11:04 –> 00:59:14:11
I didn’t know who that is without even you bringing it up. I know who we’re talking about.

00:59:14:26 –> 00:59:29:10
We’ve got a friend that thinks hunting is more like a marathon than it is about the experience. And I, I’ve just, he knows I hunt with Jason and he’ll, he’ll always ask can he go, can he go? Oh, what do you mean? Can he go, well how does he walk? How much ground can he cover?

00:59:30:08 –> 00:59:32:28
What’s a stride? What’s his pedometer spitting out? How

00:59:32:28 –> 00:59:42:10
Many, how many, how, how fast is he going, how many miles can you guys cover in a day? I I I I don’t really know. He walks fine, but I I it’s, it’s not a marathon. I’m

00:59:42:10 –> 00:59:43:08
Not, I’m

00:59:43:08 –> 00:59:43:25
Measuring and

00:59:43:25 –> 01:00:03:07
He doesn’t Yeah, he doesn’t think he’s hunting unless he stomps the mountain down. And I, you know, I I’m not trying to scare any of the eastern hunters on this because you know, there’s, there’s some long hikes and you know, there’s some bloody feet and heavy packs and that stuff, but there’s plenty of great opportunities for the eastern guy that’s, that’s a half mile walk from the truck. Oh

01:00:03:07 –> 01:00:20:19
Yeah. You, you, well we talked about it earlier and I’m even, even some of your, you’ve hunted mule deer and you know, a lot, you can hunt mule deer at 11 to 13,000 feet, or you can hunt it at five to 6,000 feet or seven or whatever. That generally won’t affect anybody from back east at all for all intents and purposes,

01:00:20:19 –> 01:00:28:20
You know. Well, like that, that mule deer that we killed in in Nevada that year, Jason, I I shot that buck, what, 300 yards from the truck?

01:00:28:28 –> 01:00:29:16
Oh my god.

01:00:29:25 –> 01:00:31:08
In the Desert Valley. Yeah. I

01:00:31:08 –> 01:00:39:20
Mean yeah, in the Desert Valley. I, I parked behind some bushes and actually I, I sat on the edge of a road and a an old sandy

01:00:39:25 –> 01:00:40:23
Two track or water.

01:00:40:29 –> 01:00:43:16
A two tracker. Yeah, yeah. And just was glassing from there. Well,

01:00:43:24 –> 01:01:03:08
So yeah, it’s, well we gotta expound upon it a little bit, but there was, so we’re down the desert water’s key, the deer, it’s kind of a rutt rutt hunt. And we, we take you out there and basically there’s just remember that water, I mean there was so much activity and tracks and everything and I’m like, you’re gonna kill giant

01:01:03:08 –> 01:01:04:07
Hang around this place.

01:01:04:10 –> 01:01:06:22
You’re gonna kill a giant. And the first report,

01:01:06:26 –> 01:01:25:26
What you, what you saw though, Jason was you said, look at this, there’s two tracks running from this water. And he said, I think we ran those deer off of this water. Yeah. And that was like, that was like eight 30 in the morning. Yeah. And he said, I think those deer were here when we drove up. They heard the truck and they ran off and they were big tracks. Very big

01:01:25:26 –> 01:01:43:25
Tracks. Yeah. Yeah. And I’m like, just sit up on that knob that knobs 500 yards away. Just sit up on that knob and shoot if a giant comes in, shoot him. And that night you’re like, well, a giant came in and I was so cold. Yeah. I couldn’t pull the trigger. And I’m like, what?

01:01:44:04 –> 01:01:46:20
I could not hold my gun still. The wind was blowing.

01:01:47:11 –> 01:01:52:13
I was wind ready to blowing, I was ready to kill you. I’m like, what wind? You’re the

01:01:52:13 –> 01:01:53:04
Wind was closed. So Oh,

01:01:53:04 –> 01:01:57:02
He had point, he had points everywhere. I don’t even know how big he was. Jason. He was

01:01:57:24 –> 01:02:34:25
That that deer is embedded in my brain. I just, I remember he was, he was a, a mainframe three point, which just stuff in every direction and, but I, I tried to get him in the cross hairs and I knew it would just be a marginal shot. The wind was blowing, I was shivering. It, it was brutal cold. And I didn’t get him that afternoon. But I, I went back the next morning, which was, I guess it was the, it was 24 hours almost to the minute of when we found those running tracks before two running tracks the day before. Went back the next morning and almost to the minute, 24 hours later, two big bucks walked in

01:02:35:13 –> 01:02:46:12
And you shot one of ’em. He is basically 190 and you saw a total of three deer Yeah. On, on your hunt. And you hunted about 24 hours. Yeah.

01:02:46:15 –> 01:02:46:24

01:02:46:24 –> 01:02:48:14
Was it. No dos you didn’t see a do,

01:02:48:28 –> 01:02:50:25
Never saw a dough. Never one dough.

01:02:51:08 –> 01:02:55:24
I mean it’s just like, anyway, I, anyway, so,

01:02:56:04 –> 01:03:47:13
And, and that’s worth talking about. I mean that’s a, that’s a case of a hunt that goes extremely everything in your favor all lines up. But Yeah. But the, the, the take home message for eastern folks or people that aren’t familiar with western hunting is within each species antelope there’s easy and there’s tough hunts. There’s not many tough hunts. Maybe, maybe that’s not a good example, but mule deer, there’s tough back country, high country region, G and H and Wyoming or Colorado stuff. And then there’s high plains hunts in Wyoming, Utah, Colorado, Idaho, that are, that are easy that anybody can do. Same with elk. There’s wilderness where you’re 20 miles back in or 28 miles in the thoroughfare if you want that kind of experience. And then there’s private land hunts or public land hunts on easier six to 7,000 feet elevation rolling prairie type stuff.

01:03:47:16 –> 01:04:24:14
So don’t think that everything out in the west is the same. That elk hunting is all jagged peaks and horses, it’s not like that. You know, in general, even within sheep in every, in every state that has a variety of sheep units, there’s some that you only have one option like Colorado desert sheep or something like that. You’ve got one option. But in other states you’ve got, you’ve got places that are very, very tough and are probably gonna involve a lot more backpacking, lower sheep densities. And you’ve got others that are lot, lot of road access, high sheep numbers. So keep all that in mind. You know, if you’re, that’s part of what we

01:04:24:14 –> 01:04:25:16
Break down. We break

01:04:25:16 –> 01:04:36:13
It down and you can fit what if you’re looking, there’s people that ask us for the meanest, the roughest. They want a horseback wall tent, elk hunt in the wilderness with grizzly bears. They want that. But

01:04:36:13 –> 01:04:37:22
What, but what I don’t

01:04:37:22 –> 01:04:38:01

01:04:39:12 –> 01:05:23:22
What I’ve never understood and what I will caution all my eastern friends is don’t do that as your first hunt to the west. Yeah. Because odds are, it’s, you might, it’s not going to be like the guy wrote about in the book or, or what you watched on the TV channel. It’s not gonna be like that. It’s gonna be hard. You’re gonna be cold, you’re gonna be wet, can’t breathe. You’re going, there’s gonna be days with, without even seeing game. Don’t go to the extreme the first time you do it. ’cause you’re like, all of us from the east, we’re not conditioned that way. We, we didn’t grow up that way. Our fathers didn’t teach us that way. So those extreme hunts, that is not the way to start. And that’s why I was talking about more of like transition hunts. Like do do a Kansas white tail, do an Idaho white tail, do a Wyoming antelope, that type of stuff.

01:05:23:25 –> 01:06:17:12
Yes, exactly. Good, great point. And and ease into it. Come out and try something for, for a lot of people just seeing a mountain with your own eyes. That, that sounds stupid. But I, I guided a, a 14, 15 year old young man two years ago here in Utah. He drew one of the rocky Mountain Bighorn tags and he was from Kansas. He had never been east of Kansas or west of Kansas in his life. And so he’d never walked on anything that wasn’t perfectly flat, let’s just call it. No, it is. Yeah. Alright. And he, and we got him out there and we killed his ram. We, we, it was in a, a unique position. We killed his ram, we where we could drive up on this mountain, hike out on this plateau. We shot straight into the canyon and then it took us maybe two hours to get him to the sheep and it was 350 yards below us.

01:06:18:06 –> 01:07:04:20
It, it, it, it probably would’ve taken all of us 30 minutes. But he, he was on, he was in spider mode. He had hands and feet on the lockdown. All four, all fours because he was so, you know, he was a young man from when he wasn’t experienced, but he had never walked off of anything that literally was not flat in, in his whole life. And he just was unsure of just walking on uneven ground. And it was a sheep canyon. It was steep, but it wasn’t treacherous. It wasn’t, oh, we’re gonna rope up and we’re gonna do, it was nothing like that. So just coming out to that point, coming out, seeing the mountains going for some hikes. I mean it sounds very simple and basic, but for, for a lot of people, I’ve had people wake up in my camp trailers at, you know, 9,500, 10,000 feet gasping for Get me outta here.

01:07:04:22 –> 01:07:38:11
I’m dying. I’m dying, I’m dying. They’re from, you know, on the east coast and just the altitude, it, it, at 9,500 to 10, they just couldn’t get enough oxygen in their sleep. They, they would not sleep the rest of the night. They thought they’re gonna die in their sleep. And here’s my wife’s number and be ready to call her if I don’t wake up. If I’m dead in the morning. Well, what, you know, there’s just things about coming to the west and seeing it. If you’ve never done that, but ease into it, like you’re said, like you’re saying don’t go, don’t go. You know, you know, to the, the steepest, deepest roughest, you’re probably gonna get intimidated in throwing the towel. Yeah.

01:07:38:11 –> 01:07:46:16
Don’t come from, don’t come from just doing one flight of stairs once a year when the elevator at the Marriott quit working. Yeah. You know what I mean? I mean you’re gonna have to, it

01:07:46:16 –> 01:08:48:01
It, it’s different than you think and it, it will be different when you get there. And sometimes I, yes, you need to be in good shape and there is no doubt about that. You need to be in good physical shape. But the other side, there’s so much mental to it. And so like a lot of these guys that we take on these like these wheeler peak and Laier hunts it, some of these guys, it’s been their first hunt in the west. And what, what you try to explain to ’em is that altitude hunting you were talking about is, there is a compounding effect on that. ’cause you’re tired from hiking all day. You’re tired from not, not oxygenating very well all day, but then like to your point Adam, you don’t sleep well at night so you’re not rested then you do it again the next day. And it, it’s just, it’s snowballing on you and the wrong direction. And typically if we don’t have a sheep hunter his round on that willer peak hunt by day three gt and I know we have to rest them. They have to rest on day four ’cause they’re beyond going. And it’s, it’s,

01:08:48:12 –> 01:09:08:25
It’s tough on guys it’s said. Yeah. It’s a mental thing. We’ve had two where guys struggle being without their family. Literally. Yeah. Because you know, you guys, when you’re, when you’re hunting white tails, you get to go home every night. A lot of times guys are hunting near their house or whatever and they go home every night and they just never have truly left their family for two or three weeks at a time. And yeah, you’re with a total

01:09:09:08 –> 01:09:12:20
Stranger get they get a hot shower, they get good food, they see their families soft

01:09:12:20 –> 01:09:13:11
Bed every night,

01:09:13:14 –> 01:09:56:23
You know. Yeah. And it’s, it’s, it’s different. And you know the funny story about those? Not, not, not funny, it’s kind of sad. We, we’d had two guys in Wheeler Peak a few years ago and we were camped on two different sides of the drainage and we’d found both big rounds and we’re going to try to hammer ’em opening daylight the next morning at legal shooting light. And our round is, is gone. We, we cannot find the round that was under us. He, he’d moved out through the night. But we can look over and we can see the rounds the other guys are gonna shoot and he’s just betted right where he was the night before. And we, where where are the guys? Who are they? It’s three hours after daylight. The Ram’s still laying there and the the guys are nowhere to be found.

01:09:57:07 –> 01:10:37:16
And I finally get up where I can get a text and the text says we had to walk the hunter off the mountain because he got altitude sickness last night. And so, well he’s gone, he’s gone from the situation. They had to walk him off in the middle of the night ’cause he thought he was having a heart attack. They knew it was altitude sickness and they walked him down or got him on the horse and got him off the mountain that night. Well the round was still laying over there. So we walk over there and we shoot the round and it scores 187 inches. So the guy was not in shape to handle that hunt was, and he had a, at, at daylight he would’ve shot 187 inch round at 200 yards. And

01:10:38:01 –> 01:10:44:17
How do you train for it though, Raj? Like what’s your, what’s your advice or is it just, are you just saying it’s mental thing and just

01:10:44:19 –> 01:10:45:21
Well there, there is some mental just live

01:10:45:28 –> 01:10:49:08
To being sick until you, until you acclimate to it. I mean

01:10:49:08 –> 01:11:31:00
There’s some mental to it but I I’ve always told hunters that the better shape you’re in, the more you’re gonna enjoy the experience. I know some very fit guys that can, that can struggle with altitude sickness, but for the most part, the guy who is very fit when he gets out there is not gonna struggle with it. And I, I I don’t know if you guys have seen that in your guiding too, but if they’re fit, they’re typically going to be able to handle it. And I like a guy I mentioned earlier, Vince Schneider. Vince Schneider is an in shape guy. Vince can just walk and walk. Well, Vince had no trouble in some of the worst country in New Mexico and because of that it was pretty easy to get Vince around some of the other hunters. It can, it’s definitely more of a challenge.

01:11:31:10 –> 01:12:36:11
But what I tell a lot of the hunters is you need to be able to walk 10 miles without stopping in your hunting boots. Yeah. And if you can do that, you can handle most of those. Especially New Mexico, you can handle those New Mexico she hunts. Not, not everyone has access to, to out and hike on a mountain. But before I go out west, I, I have a mountain behind my house and I go, I go up and down that mountain and that, that gets me in good enough cardiovascular shape to, to handle those hunts. And that’s these, the eastern guys need to find a way to walk and walk a lot. And if you can get on a hill and go up the hill. And I think it’s also just as important to go down the hill. You guys don’t, this never enters you guys’ brains ’cause you’re always walking up and down hills. Yeah, yeah. But the, these guys here going downhill. It’s just as important getting your knees and your ankles and your hips conditioned to that. ’cause if the first time that you’ve walked two hours downhill is when you’re in New Mexico, you’re gonna get shin splints so bad that you can’t walk the next day.

01:12:36:28 –> 01:12:38:07
What about bench presses?

01:12:41:15 –> 01:12:41:21

01:12:42:26 –> 01:12:45:19
What about benching? Do you

01:12:45:19 –> 01:12:45:26

01:12:46:16 –> 01:12:49:21
Do you usually ask people what they can bench before they come hunt with you?

01:12:51:08 –> 01:13:39:08
We’ve took some big muscle bound guys and I and big thick, massive dudes and they look real impressive. But man, do they struggle? There’s just, there’s that, there’s just too much mass to carry a lot of times. And they’re, they’re big massive guys and they, they look like they could play football on Sundays, but it, it’s tough on ’em. The average guy will, if, if when you look at these guides in the west, they know, they know as soon as they see a guy, if they see a guy that’s six foot tall and 180 pounds, okay we’ve got a great chance there. But when they see a guy that’s 5 7 3 50 mm it’s, it’s, it’s gonna be a tough hunt. But the now the bench pressing the squats, well I guess squats could help. But the bench pressing I haven’t found helps a whole lot on these western hunts.

01:13:39:16 –> 01:13:42:01
That makes me feel better personally. ’cause I can’t bet.

01:13:43:29 –> 01:13:44:08

01:13:44:17 –> 01:13:44:24

01:13:45:04 –> 01:13:46:24
Feel better. Good. Helped out

01:13:46:26 –> 01:13:54:00
’em today. Long skinny arms. Same with pullups. I can’t, I can’t crush a bunch of those. So I’m feeling better about this podcast right now.

01:13:55:13 –> 01:13:57:21
That was, that was a random question. Yeah,

01:13:57:22 –> 01:14:05:09
Well I just, we were kind of in the car, you know, the cardio, the, you know, is it all about, you know, the, this

01:14:05:09 –> 01:14:26:05
Time of year we’re seeing so many social media posts of just gym selfies and mostly the guys lifting and, and you know, that doesn’t, it’s not really what’s helping here doesn’t always here, you know. Yeah. I, doing a stair master, being able to do a StairMaster with no hands with a backpack for 45 minutes would be something. You know what I mean? And versus Yeah. Versus just bench pressing. So

01:14:27:11 –> 01:14:38:16
There, there is, there is no substitute for just getting your pack and your hunting, getting your pack on, getting your hunting boots on and just walking. And if you can find a heel, go up and down a hill.

01:14:39:05 –> 01:14:39:13

01:14:39:19 –> 01:14:42:05
And I’ve, I have not found a substitute for that.

01:14:42:24 –> 01:15:11:12
Well, Roger, we need to go in dive. We got a bunch more, you know, subjects and topics to talk about. But for, for now, let’s, let’s call it a day. I mean, you’ve, you sure. We sure appreciate everything you’ve done for us and, and of course you, and I’ve spent a lot of time in the trailer and tents and whatnot together and you got a lot of stories. But anyway, we appreciate your insight on some of this with, you know, dealing with hunting in the west from an eastern perspective. So

01:15:11:18 –> 01:15:40:04
Yeah, sure. Yeah. Well thanks guys. Thanks for having me on. And there’s, like I said, there’s so many opportunities for the eastern guy to take advantage of in the west and just, there’s no reason to go to the full extreme to, to take advantage of it, get focused on the, some of the western white tail, the antelope and the mule deer and transition into some of these other hunts and hope that you, you get one of those real big bonus tags and they like a sheep or a goat.

01:15:41:01 –> 01:16:06:04
Okay, thanks Roger. Appreciate your time. Been great as always. And you know, good perspective. I think there’s certain things Jason, I, we, we take a little bit for granted as everybody does. You’re used to what you’re used to and that’s your world, you know, and we can sometimes rattle off stuff like it’s common common knowledge at some point, but different perspective from someone that doesn’t live out west is always great. So appreciate your insight today.

01:16:06:23 –> 01:16:08:02
Yeah, sure guys. Anytime.

01:16:08:06 –> 01:16:09:05
Okay, thanks Raj.

01:16:09:26 –> 01:16:43:17
Also, by way of gear, I wanna talk about Q’s new attack pro pant. This is a new 2018 version of their attack pant, which has been around and, you know, very popular. I’ve had, you know, many different versions of that. But this new version has got a little bit different fabric. It’s more abrasion and pick resistant. I can’t wait to try some of those out this year. Everything that they make’s been pretty much top of the line and don’t expect any different of those. So you might give those a try the attack prop pant new from q u this year. Appreciate them. You can only order and check that out on q u.com.