EP 147: Big Bucks! Mule Deer Management, Jicarilla Game and Fish

We're going to talk about big bucks. Early 2020 survey was the best survey I've flown for big bucks, period. Gross 200-inch average for non-tribal hunts. Anything to do with Western big game. Welcome to the Epic Outdoors Podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody, Jason Carter and Adam Bronson here at the Epic Outdoors Podcast, coming at you from southern Utah, Cedar City. That's where a lot of fun things happen here in Cedar City. Good sushi here, too. Right, Bronson? Yeah, as good as you can for inland states. We've learned that you go on Thursdays, because the fish comes in on Wednesdays. It's awesome. Anyway, we appreciate Under Armour. They sponsor this podcast. We're super excited to get these guys on the line. We've got a special podcast coming. Northern New Mexico.

The Hickory Indian Reservation. So, we're going to talk about big bucks. We're also going to talk about, you know, some of the opportunities they have for non-tribal member hunting, bears, elk, and just in general, get a pulse on what their weather's been like, which can translate to some of the other nearby deer units that we're also fond of, 2B2C5, some of those others like that. So, let's give him a call. Yeah, let's get him on the line here and see what Kyle has to say. That didn't sound like Kyle. Hello, you have reached the Hickorya Game and Fish Department. Our office hours are 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. Mountain Standard. Monday through Friday. Press 2 for Kyle Tater, YLI. Boom. Please hold while your call is being transferred to... Kyle Tater. This is Kyle.

Kyle, Jason Carter, and Adam Bronson, how are ya? Hey, guys, how's it going? Good, good, we don't have the coronavirus, but we are sick, how are you doing? Oh, I'm doing well, man, we survived the show season, no coronavirus. I don't know if that's where we caught it or what, but we're, we're on the recovery, at least we're all infecting each other here, we're kind of quarantined in this office. You guys stay in Utah, yeah, well, we'll get through it. How's your weather been? What's your, you been getting crushed with this last round of storms in the last week or so? Yeah, I mean, we've been, in general, we've been pretty mild. The last week or so, we had a lot of rain and a little bit of snow, but in general, fairly mild winter so far. Yeah, that's nice. Maybe give us a quick rundown of how the season went. It seemed like you guys did kill some great animals coming off the reservation.

How things went, and then maybe just a quick outline of how you think this year is shaping up. Sure. So, 2019, we were back to normal is what I'd say, because 2018 was one of the worst drought years we've ever seen. So, as far as tribal member hunts, you know, we had the typical two-week hunt in October, which is a high-success hunt for tribal members. Our biggest buck was a 200-inch buck. I think we just officially entered him in Boone and Crockett at 195 net. And then, when I mean back to normal, the client hunts, our average was back to 200 gross or better. So, it was right at 200 this year. That's a variety of bucks killed, you know, anything from big typicals to, you know, big heavy stuff with trash. So, kind of what the hickory is known for, and good to be back on that track. Yeah, that's awesome. Is it, just for the people that don't know, the difference between tribal,

tribal's just a little bit earlier and not in the rut, whereas your later season hunts are the ones that you, you know, sell to clients? Sure, yeah. So, the priority of our program is to provide Good hunting for tribal members. The secondary objective there would be, you know, as a result of our management for tribal members, there's some phenomenal opportunity for non-tribal members. So, the majority of licenses are issued for tribal hunts that are the last two weeks of October, typically. And then, for non-member or client hunts, those range from We're going to be in mid-November through the draw hunt, which is the first 10 days of December. So, like I said, just a phenomenal opportunity.

What we want is for folks to come here that are lucky enough to draw or obtain a tag to leave here thinking like this is a world-class resource and we're treated fairly and killed a buck of 10 lifetimes. Yeah. Before we maybe get into all the rest of the hunting you do, deer obviously being one that we're all probably most known for, tell us a little bit about what you do, Kyle, your background, and what you do for the tribe there, what your role is. Okay. So, first of all, I'm a lifelong hunter, conservationist. I grew up in Dulce. So, having grown up in this community, it's really hard not to be a hunter, for one, I've been to have a love for wildlife, and definitely always remember the big bucks as a kid here, and it sort of shaped my future. So, when I left high school here, I went down and got a degree in range science, and then ended up getting a master's in wildlife management.

Gotcha. Where did you go to school? I went to school at NMSU, and I always dreamed about coming home, but never thought it would ever happen. But the stars aligned, and here I am. Gotcha. Yeah, not like you have a big staff of biologists there. There's a few, you know what I mean? It's like very limited jobs for biologists, and so you got to get the one or two, you know what I mean? So... The mule deer nut that likes big mule deer and wants to manage for them, you know, those jobs are few. That's right. Anyway, so that's what I do. I'm the biologist here, obviously.

And I've been doing it for 12 years now. So... Geez. What a great job. Yeah. We met, I think it's your brother that's Ian. Ian Tater? Yeah, my brother Ian. Yeah, he's the older, uglier tater. You know, he's actually a good dude. We were up there having dinner at the Hunt Expo and shared a table with him. And it was such a small world. I guess he's working for Wyoming Gaming Fish now. Yeah, he's also a biologist. He runs the Habitat It's a program for Wyoming Game and Fish. So, like I said, I've been growing up here. I think it shaped both of us and sent us down that path. Yeah. Anyway, super good guy. It was fun to visit with him. And anyway, small world, of course. Anyway, so he worked for a reservation down there in New Mexico prior to that job with Wyoming, right? Yeah, he actually worked for Acoma, Pueblo of Acoma, and ran the biology there for probably

10 years. And, you know, Acoma's got some great elk. And, you know, that's actually where I got my master's degree, working on the elk down there. So, it is a small world, and, you know, I feel blessed for all the opportunities that have come my way. And, you know, hopefully Hopefully, there's some more coming down the road and keep things on the right path. Well, he, anyway, yeah, it was awesome to visit with him. Of course, we've been in his ear a little bit in Wyoming, and we'd love to see amazing deer come back and whatnot. And of course, he's over habitat, seemed like statewide. So, anyway, we've been in his ear a little bit and had a good time that night. So, great guy. But anyway, so yeah, I guess that kind of sets, teases up here. As far as mule deer, you guys do, of course, you do some surveys after everything's, all

the dust clears, and the hunters go home, and obviously back to normal, like you said, with gross 200-inch average for non-tribal hunts and whatnot. Just an amazing statistic. I mean, that's kind of the holy grail for any and all mule deer hunters. Don't know many guys that would be, you know, passing something like that up. So, that's one of the best mule There are older hunting opportunities in the entire western U.S. that we know of, but what now, how does that set the stage for 2020? I mean, obviously, you know, they don't kill them all, and just wondering, you know, how things are looking. We got into the weather a little bit, but then also maybe your post-season surveys. Yeah, so what makes us unique is we actually set seasons and quotas and everything every year, which puts a huge management and monitoring burden on the department to collect the right data every year.

So, everything from antler scores to teeth to habitat monitoring to, of course, aerial surveys every January is basically the recipe that we follow. Using these data, we come up with an annual proclamation, which we just released. It's on our website. And then we sort of forecast the coming year. So, just real quick, we were talking about, you know, the standard of big bucks. I took some notes. Since 2012, which is when I started, so eight years ago, we've had 68 bucks with 200-inch gross or better, tribal member and non. Of those 68, I only go back to 2012, because it's hard to go past anything that I wasn't collecting, but 21 minimum eligible for all-time Boone and Crockett. Wow. I think that's a testament to our program and testament to how well we're able to keep this thing going long-term. We've been doing this for close to 40 years now.

Some things that sort of guide my day is the uncertainty is inevitable, especially in complex wild systems. It's something that I think most biologists would agree with. We've got to be able to adapt and react to challenges, especially on a modern multiple-use landscape. So, that absolutely requires constant collection of data, which is, you know, comes full circle to why we do it. The other thing that, especially with mule deer, is a lot of the literature these days is saying mule deer lack the ability to adapt quickly to change. So, again, if without the right information, the right data collected, you know, we could be missing the boat big time in a matter of years, you know, one or two years.

So, we've been very blessed. Another thing that makes us super unique is we've always had a lot of support from the community, from the tribal membership, tribal council, president, for the last 40 years. This is something that they are behind absolutely 100 percent. Mule deer are key. They are a cultural species. They're important to the community. So, anyway, as far as what 2020 is looking like, so we're managed for abundance, we manage for age class. All those things are in place. 2020 should be a banner year based on what I've seen from the helicopter and what the data is telling me otherwise. Of course, the one factor and the one that can trump everything is precipitation. You know, if we're not getting ample spring and summer precip, that seems to hinder us pretty bad. So... What age? What do you guys figure the key age? What are you managing for?

So, the overall, for the client hunts, it's a minimum of four. Last year was five and a half average. But we've had bucks killed in the 13-year-old range before, which is, you know, beyond grandpa's stage for a mule deer buck.

But yeah, typically we're managing for a four- to seven-year-old type buck, including the tribal harvest. You alluded to it a minute ago about the uniqueness of some of the things within the reservation and the way you manage. Can you think of things, you know, outside, I mean, you're obviously a wildlife biologist, but you're in a little bit of a unique setting, being on a reservation and maybe can have maybe different tools at your disposal that maybe aren't as easily accessed as on public land, landscape management or, you know, whatever. Can you maybe talk about a few things that you feel maybe set some of your management of mule deer, whether it be specific, you know, management practices or habitat-related stuff or predator? What do you think maybe is unique? Sure. I'd say all of it. And the refreshing part about working for Hickorya, I can't speak for all tribes, but for Hickorya,

is habitat and populations would be under the same roof, meaning we can coordinate that effort hand in hand. So, not to say there aren't challenges on a multiple-use landscape, oil and gas, whatever. There's a lot of other things on the landscape. But what I would say that makes us unique is we are self-governed, we're self-reliant. So, if we wanted to go do a project that we thought benefited mule deer or elk or habitat or whatever, there's very little delay. There's no red tape. You know, that makes us super unique, makes my job very refreshing, and makes me want to come to work. You know, there's not a whole lot of bureaucracy, if you get what I mean. Yeah, kind of like our business here. We're small, and we get to do what we want. You guys kind of get to do what you want. That's what I'm hearing.

Yeah, a good example was when I got hired in 2012, we needed to update some of the migration data that was done in the 80s, and the technology has come so far. You know, I presented it, and they said, go for it. So, the next January, we were collaring deer just like that. Wow. Like I said, we got a lot of support. We got a lot of folks understand the importance of what we're doing, and it's a great place to be. I want to talk about the age real quick. You say you've got five and a half, you're managing for four, everybody killing a four-year-old, but, you know, if we came in at five and a half, we would issue more tags here. And so, how does that play into your management? You're at five and a half, does that mean you get to issue more tags, or are you also taking in social pressures and a gut feel of, we don't want to issue more tags, even though we're above age objective?

Sure, yeah. So, that's sort of the slippery slope of having written down objectives. So, there is the gut feel. Are we where we need to be? I have a whole bunch of written sort of guidelines that help me understand our harvested age structure a little bit better. Because we also have things like meat harvest for tribal members that are younger bucks. We want to make sure that that doesn't become additive through time. So, when I say, you know, we're managing for four to seven, there's some flexibility there. On average, though, the one that I'm looking at the most is the non-member hunts. Non-member hunts. So, when I say we're managing for a minimum of four, that should be the absolute bottom. We should be killing five, six, seven. Okay.

And there really isn't a whole lot of pressure that maybe a state agency would have saying, well, you got too many bucks on the landscape. That just doesn't exist. Abundance is key, especially if you're trying to kill big bucks. Not every buck is going to be a 200-inch muley. In order to do that, you need to have several bucks on the landscape. Well, here in the States, normal stateside type management, they're seeing a lot of game. They're issuing more tags. It feels like you're saying, we're seeing a lot of bucks, but we like seeing a lot of bucks. May not, may not. Our tag numbers may not. To me, having a buck die of old age is a great thing.

That's awesome. Wow. How do you manage, you know, the migration? How, you know, does, how does that play into the hickorya, or are you basically, do you feel like you guys in the non-tribal later type hunts are hunting resident deer? You know, how does that come into play with your average age? And it's hard to deal with any migrations from Colorado and mixing with your residents. So, yeah, the more data we collect on migration, the better feel we have for what, you know, how that looks. And the most recent stuff says migration is occurring in October, early October, no matter what, whether there's snow up high or not, which is pretty fascinating stuff. It's more of an internal time clock in a deer. As far as the hunting is concerned, we've been doing the October hunt for tribal members, so in essence, they're getting the best of both worlds on that hunt.

A little bit of resident, a little bit of migrant. So, you know, the timing of an October hunt can be challenging based on a whole variety of environmental issues, moon, whatever. And then, obviously, the December hunt should be most deer are on winter range, which we are winter range. We're where the Rocky Mountains meets the Colorado Plateau. So, the landscape is super important for the region, I would say, and we treat it as such. Do you have internal, I guess, I don't know how to word this, with, you know, obviously, you guys have a very, very conservative, we'll just call it management strategy, like you said, manage for older deer, things like that. How do you balance that with some of the migration, the deer that leave and all that? I guess there's really nothing you can do, but that's tough. And I guess, you know, we hear about it from other people in the western states.

So, you know, you manage a well-managed, privately owned ranch, and then your deer leave, and they get hunted by other people down the road, you know, as the deer move and leave. And that's a challenge for you as well, to raise deer and not be able to keep them all year long, obviously. And, you know, you are a thoroughfare for deer coming out of Colorado and filtering through you, and then maybe filter back through back into New Mexico, you know, BLM or state ground as well. I'd be lying if I said that wasn't a concern. But luckily, we have 850,000 acres, and that helps. The other cool thing about the landscape is, from tip to tip, it's browse rich, it's cover rich, everything that mule deer want. The other cool thing is the elevational relief from north to south.

So, we have a variety of habitats that should an animal need to migrate further, hopefully they migrate down on land that is managed and owned by the tribe. But yeah, I mean, there's not a whole lot you can do over a migrant animal that crosses the fence. It's a very complex thing, unfortunately. You know, we try to focus on the positive, on what we can do here on the reservation, and stick to that. What type of, like, vegetation manipulation treatments and that have you guys been able to do to, obviously, stimulate your browse, or to reduce, you know, pinion juniper, encroachment, things like that? Give us some examples of some of the larger scale projects you've been working on. The recent efforts and sort of test plots, if you will, have been in more sagebrush enhancement than anything. So, like a Dixie Harrow treatment with some reeseed thrown on top.

We've been getting some pretty good results out of that, so we want to take that to some other areas that we think it would work. So, that's a very complex thing in itself, you know, whether it's feasible or not, and are we going to make it worse with cheatgrass or whatever type concerns. So, the other thing that has been going on for a long, long time is BIA Forestry does a lot of commercial thinning of pine stands and things like that. Get some sunlight on the ground and start creating some more food in more of the summer ranges of the reservation. So, all good things, you know. And then, moving forward in the future, we've been looking at some shredding and mulching, Hydroaxing of PJ stands, creating some little wildlife treatments, kind of in more transitional or mid-elevational ranges. So, a little bit of everything, and as far as the monitoring

side of things of habitat, we've been collecting browse production and utilization data on our We've been in our southern mesas since 2002. So, fascinating stuff to collect and to analyze and to see how important these habitats are and how sensitive they are to timing and amount of precipitation more than anything else. So, we feel like it's a big picture. You know, everything is related to everything else, and that's important. So, we try to collect as much data as possible on that sort of stuff, and then use that data to guide, you know, habitat treatments, things like that. Well, that's awesome. So, I know you guys have been aggressive in predator control as well over the years, especially in years past, that I'm personally aware of, but maybe talk a little bit about that and how you guys...

Sure. So, in 1982, I believe, the tribe hired their first biologist, and mainly as a result of...there were very few deer on the landscape. There were some issues. The mule deer heyday, quote-unquote, had come and gone. So, the gentleman collared a bunch of deer and found out that all of the mortality factor was either coyotes or illegal hunting. So, as a result, they responded like any good game department would. They started doing some pretty intensive predator management, along with some pretty robust law enforcement initiatives. So, those things are still in existence today and sort of the hallmark of what we're doing, the foundation of the program. So, when it comes to predator management, I always like to say, you know, if it's a very site-specific thing, it's something that once you do, you got to commit to. Basically, we're

creating a window for fawn recruitment or calf recruitment. So, we're ultra-aggressive when it comes to coyote management. We also have several mountain lion and black bear type hunts, But those are all under limited entry type seasons. So, I would say, as a result, in the 80s, where the first classification survey counted 1,300 deer total, to today, where, you know, with fewer hours, I'm counting closer to 4,000 or 5,000 deer per flight. You know, I think it's a testament to predator management and where we've come since the early 80s. So, super important, something that we will continue to do through time. What type of things are you specifically doing? You addressed the draw or limited entry tags for lions or bears. But for coyotes specifically, what did you implement then? What has been changed, modified? How do you continue to put pressure on that? What's that look like?

So, in the mid-80s, they hired a full-time department trapper, and that position is still here today. So, we've got a guy that his full job is to handle wildlife-related conflicts, but that's his big job description, but really, it's coyotes. So, the other thing that we do is, in the 80s, they also instituted a bounty for tribal members to bring in coyotes, and I would say that has been the most effective tool that we've used since 1983, probably, to put constant pressure on coyotes. What is it? What's the bounty? 40 bucks a dog. Okay, that's awesome. That's still in place today, huh, for tribal members? Yeah, it's still in place today. Yeah, interesting. How does a guy go about getting a tag? Like, let's say somebody wants to apply, obviously you have an application system, you can cover that real quick before we move on to the other species.

Sure. So, for deer, deer is high demand. We only issue seven deer tags on draw. The remaining five, so 12 total. The remaining five are either live auction or some form of sealed bid to our office. So, if you wanted to put in for the general draw, that application can be downloaded from our website, hickariahunt.com. It's the draw application form. You simply submit a $50 check with your name, one name per form, get it here before June 1st, and that enters you into the draw. Should you draw the license, and the odds have typically been 1 in 14 or 1 in 15 over the last few years, 17-5 would be due. And then, you know, you got to hire a tribal member guide, you got to book your room and meals and all that stuff are on you. So, that's the basic policy for applying for the draw. And, you know, the lucky seven that get drawn, then they come deer hunting in December.

Okay, there you go. $17,500 plus the guide fee plus food and lodging. And from what I understand, guide fees are fairly reasonable up there. So, anyway, so if a guy wants to do that, you can get on, what's your website real quick, Kyle? Hicariahunt.com. So, J-I-C-A-R-I-L-L-A hunt.com. Okay. We also understand you have a good population of elk. Do you want to go into that? It seems like you guys have some good elk hunting opportunities. And then tags that maybe don't sell out so fast and gives guys an opportunity to really go and enjoy that and possibly harvest a real good bull as well. Sure. So, our elk program is often overshadowed by the nature of our mule deer program. But honestly, we have way more opportunity for elk. We have some really great elk hunting.

The way that I try to sell it to folks that are interested in it is, if you love elk hunting, this is a great place to come because of the abundance of elk, the number of opportunities we have, whether it's a cow elk or a late season bull or an early season bull, archery muzzleloader, we've got a lot of different opportunities. So, what Mother Nature provides in north central New Mexico is, on average, a .305 to .310 type bull. Every once in a while, we're well above that, .320 to .330, but the average tells us that's what to expect. So, we manage it same as deer. We want old bulls on the landscape. We want mature bulls and have a variety of hunts to get you out on the landscape. So, those are issued a lot differently than our deer. Actually, March 2nd, which is this coming Monday, we will start selling those first-come, first-served over the phone.

And all of those are, you know, they typically sell within a week or so, but if there's any It's my interest, and March 2nd is the day this year. Tell us a little bit about the opportunities, and I know that we can direct people to your website. Like you said, you put your proclamation on there, but in summary, what do you have season date-wise, weapon date-wise? What are the different opportunities they have? And then it's maybe going to some of the costs associated with those, and the guides required, and things like that. Okay. So, the archery hunt, last five days of September, that's the Res Wide Archery. It's a $6,050 license, plus guide, meals, lodging, all that stuff. So, what folks tell me that have hunted that is they don't really tell their friends about it because it's that good.

So, maybe this podcast will start to liven that up. Anyway, they can expect to have several encounters every day with bull elk. You know, and like I said, if you like elk hunting, you like bugling, you like chasing bugles, kind of a cool place to come and try it. High success, that's what makes us super unique on these archery hunts. Last year's success was 75%, which is unheard of as far as I'm concerned, as far as an archery average. So, that's archery. We also have some southern unit flexibility with archery and muzzleloader, and that's very limited tags. There's six licenses down there. That's also a $6,000 archery tag.

You can roll that hunt into a muzzleloader hunt for $1,000. It'd be $7,000. But the advantage of the south unit is, it's a seven-day hunt. You can roll your own hunt dates between the 1st and the 25th. So, a little bit more flexibility for a guy that may have a tight schedule in September. Is there more elk in the southern, fewer elk in the southern? I would say there's fewer elk in the southern unit, but I think we're splitting hairs when I say that. There's a lot of elk everywhere. Plenty of elk. You just add some flexibility to it, and that's the main reason why you're doing it that way. Sure, sure. Well, we also have the res-wide hunt for tribal members is happening the first through the 25th as well, archery bull hunt. So, we just needed a...we made a subunit to provide another opportunity, essentially.

So, still a great hunt. The standard of, you know, high success, lots of bulls, is still there. So...and then moving forward, the next hunt would be the early rifle, October 1st through 5th, or 6th through 10th. There's two hunts there. That is by far the most popular hunt. Typically, those elk are still bugling, so it's essentially a rifle-bugle hunt. That is an $8,050 license. Again, first come, first served, March 2nd. Top notch, phenomenal hunt. It's a very unique hunt in my mind. And then we have more later season hunts. So, November 1st through 5th, sort of a transitional hunt. Still, honestly, the last couple of years, it seems like the biggest bulls have been killed on that hunt, score-wise. And then the late season hunt, which is what I would call more of an adventure hunt,

because we can have two feet of snow or two feet of mud, you know, depending on what things are looking like out there. And a lot of glassing, a lot of spotting stock, you know, looking through big old bulls that you need to find one that isn't broken up. You know, it's kind of a cool experience in itself. So, those two late season hunts are a $7,000 license. All right. And everything is all required, a guide required, right? Everything we do requires a tribal member guide. Yeah. And when do those sell out, or, you know, how long does a guy have? I know they go on sale here shortly, but, you know... So, yeah, I would say within a day, the early rifle hunts are gonna be taken. So, if someone has interest, March 2nd, they need to get on the horn for the early rifle.

Archery, you know, it's similar. There's lots of demand, but it really depends on the year, who's coming back, etc., you know, that sort of thing. Yeah, do you give them first rider refusal? Do you give first rider refusal to guys that come to the opponent? No, no, but the guys who know the procedure, they're on the horn. Yeah, they're calling us at 7.59. 8 a.m. on the 2nd. They're there. Okay. Alright, and then you got cow elk opportunities and things like that as well later in the year. Yeah, so as far as demand, I would say cow elk are probably second to mule deer. We get a lot of interest for our antlerless licenses. So, mainly from back east, it seems, but we welcome whoever wants to come, and we issue a lot of opportunity for that,

And that's how we re-regulate our elk herd. Elks seem to be doing very well these days as far as growing, expanding, you know, recruiting calves, things like that. So, the way we keep that in check is through these cow hunts. And so, that's also a draw. That's on the same form that you would apply for mule deer, the draw application form. The cow elk's on the draw. All these bull tags you just talked about are all first come first, just call and buy. First come first serve. What's the drawing odds if a guy wants a cow tag? Yeah, they're really good. So, the way we do it is you get to, you have four choices. We have a variety of seasons, and you know, south unit, north unit, res wide, late, early, a lot of different opportunities. So, a guy would have to figure out what his priorities are, four choices, and we draw apps.

So, when we pull an application, we'll look at those choices and try to fit them within the quota. As a result, if you're dead set on a res cow 2 hunt or something like that, a reservation-wide cow, and that's your only choice, then your odds go down significantly. But if you diversify those choices and are flexible in your dates, more often than not, I would say probably 90% draw off if you do that. And what's your price on your cow tax? It's a $50 application fee per person, just like the deer. If you draw, it's $750. And is it due June, same as deer, or earlier? Yeah, it's due June 1st. And then you hire a guide for the day or two hunt, whatever you get ahead, right? Yep.

What is your, and I know you're independent of your guides, because you can see a list of guides on your website. I know I've been on there before. But for our listeners that are maybe not sure, if they're interested in buying one of these bull tags that we talked about a bit ago, what is a range for, let's say, a five-day hunt? You've got to have an idea of what most people are charging. What are people looking at on top of their permit fees that we went through a minute ago? Gotcha. So, I'll tell you what the fair market price for a guide is and what guides are getting paid on some ranches around here, other outfitters, things like that. And I think that's probably the best way to keep that. So, 250 to 300 a day times the number of days that you're out there. Not including any gratuity, stuff like that.

If a guy was interested in one of our five-day rifle hunts or whatever, or archery hunt, that would start to form a budget for him. The casino hotel here is called Wild Horse Casino and Hotel. They'll sell you a room for $100 a night. There's a few restaurants in town. I mean, Dulce is not exactly a booming metropolis, We try to take care of the hunters that come here and go from there. Gotcha. So, not too expensive, paying daily rates for the most part for a five-day hunt. Most of those bull hunts, the archery and the muzzle slash rifle, are all five days on your seasons on those? Or is there some of them longer than that? No, traditionally, they're five-day hunts. Yeah, okay.

So, not too expensive, I guess, is what we're trying to drive home here. I mean, it's not like you're tacking a five or six thousand dollar guide fee on top of a, you know, seven or eight thousand dollar hunt. It's not like that. Sure. Yeah. Super affordable, and for what you're getting, I think it's definitely worth the money. Talk about maybe a few of the other species, I guess, bear and turkey. I mean, non-tribal, you know, have good opportunities at that as well, or is that something for tribal? Yeah, so we have a spring bear, fall bear. We also have mountain lions, and all of those things are on a spring draw, so that will be coming up pretty soon as well. That's due in March sometime, isn't it? I believe it's March 16th is the deadline. I'd have to look at the proc on that one.

Anyway, so you apply the same way. The only difference there is instead of a $50 application fee, what we're asking for is all money up front to enter the draw for the license fee. So, that's $650, somewhere in that range, depending on if it's a Mountline app or a Bear app. And then the way that works is you have a season, a spring season, and then you have a fall season for Bear. But you would have to hire a tribal member guide that does bears and coordinate with him and go from there, and then choose your own dates within the season. So, although the season might be April 15th through June, your hunt is only going to be some five days that you decide between you and your guide. Book it with them. Gotcha.

Then mount line is, we have 20 licenses on a draw, and the way that works is very similar. If you draw, essentially you reserved your tag, and then you would choose your own seven days throughout the season. The season is year-round. You have to pre-choose, so you don't... Or can you choose right before you go? So, that gives you flexibility for snow. Yeah. For snow. You're waiting on snow is what you're doing. So, yeah. So, those are those two things. And turkeys, you know, I definitely enjoy chasing turkeys in the spring, and this is one of the best hunts I can think of for Merriams. It's a really cool hunt, lots and lots of turkeys, a really cool time of year to be out in the woods. You cannot shed hunt if anyone's asking, you know, they'll go buy a turkey tag and go shed hunting instead.

No. Anyway, yeah, so that's first-come, first-served coming up. Is there a limit to them? I mean, obviously, first-come, first-served? I mean, tough to get a turkey tag? It's a $550 license, and there's 30 tags available. And they go on sale March 2nd as well? March 2nd, they go on sale, and that's when you'd reserve your license. So, on any of these first-come, first-served licenses, all we're doing is, you know, We want folks to call in and tell us, yes, I'd like a turkey tag. And what we'll do is we'll write their name and information on the roster, and you have five business days to get us an application and fees, and the license is yours. So, we're trying to simplify the process. We're trying to stay away from draws the best we can. We're trying to get folks to commit to coming to hunt here in the fall before any of the Western draws are out.

And it seems to be working, and we're getting some pretty good feedback from some of the hunters that have come here the last couple years. Awesome. Well, is there any stories? Did you get out to hunt yourself? Did you kill one of these 200-inchers? I don't get to hunt here. I can't afford to hunt here. I'm just an only biologist. Geez. No, I apply for many western states every year, and my draw odds are terrible. But I did get out in Colorado fourth season, had a good time, and killed a nice old buck. Didn't score very well, but nice old buck. I'm happy with him. Down in that country close to you, just north of you? Yeah, that's awesome. That general area. Cool. Well, that's awesome. Well, is there anything you want to add as we close down this thing and want to tell anybody anything that we missed? I would just say, you know, check us out online and

feel free to pick up the phone if there's any questions. There's a lot of misinformation, and I think my job, one of my roles is to make sure that we provide good information, and I appreciate the opportunity to be on the podcast to do that. Yeah, you've given us your website. We appreciate that, and we'll make sure we have a link to But what is, since some individuals might listen to this before March 2nd and want to jump on the phone, what is the phone number that they need to be calling March 2nd or later to try to figure out if they're interested in buying one of these hunts we've talked about? Sure. Area code 575-759-3255. And it's hickoryahunt.com as well?

So, hickoreahunt.com is where we send everybody. The first step is downloading the proclamation and reading and understanding the seasons and, you know, anything like that. So, if there are any questions, feel free to give me a call. I'm happy to have those conversations. All right, Kyle. We sure appreciate you being on with us. It's awesome. It's always fun to talk about big deer. You couldn't help but think in your survey in four to five thousand head of deer out of the helicopter, you probably saw a good one. How good? How good a buck am I seeing? Yeah, those pictures are stored in a vault somewhere. No, I would say, just to put it into perspective, I've flown 12 surveys since I've been here, and this early 2020 survey was the best survey I've flown for big bucks. Come on. Period. Come on. Yep. And I'm not just saying that. That's a teaser. That's a mega teaser right there.

We need either, Bronson, we need to figure out how to hunt the hick or hunt everywhere around the hickory. I'm telling you. Huh? You and everyone else. That's right. All right, Kyle. Well, have a good day, man. Appreciate your time, Kyle. We appreciate you. Yeah. Good talking with you guys. All right. Talk to you later.