Big Bucks! Mule Deer Management, Jicarilla Game and Fish. In this episode we talk with Biologist, Kyle Tator of the Jicarilla Game and Fish. We focus on Mule Deer Management and talk big bucks before transitioning into Elk and other opportunities. The Jicarilla is a place with abundant opportunities many of which are over the counter on a first come first serve basis. If you need a new hunt opportunity don’t overlook the Jicarilla.

Disclaimer: this text was produced through an automated transcription service and likely contains errors. Please listen to the original audio for exact content.

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We’re gonna talk about big box,

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Early 2020 survey was the best survey I’ve flown for big box period.

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Gross, 200 inch average for for non-tribal hunts. Anything to do with Western Big Game.

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To the Epic Outdoors Podcast, powered by Under Armour.

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Hey everybody, Jason Carter and Adam Bronson here at the Epic Outdoors Podcast coming at you from Southern Utah, Cedar City. That’s where a lot of fun things happen here in Cedar City. Good sushi here too, right? Bronson? Yeah.

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As good as you can for Inland States.

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We’ve learned that you go on Thursdays, ’cause the fish comes in on Wednesdays. It’s awesome. Anyway, we appreciate Under Armour. They sponsor this podcast. We’re super excited to get these guys on the line. We got a special podcast coming, Northern New Mexico

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Hickory Indian Reservation. So we’re gonna talk about big bucks. We’re gonna also gonna talk about, you know, some of the opportunities they have for non-tribal member hunting, bears, elk, and just in general get a, get a pulse on what their weather’s been like, which can translate to some of the other nearby deer units that we’re also fond of. Two B, two C five, some of those others like that. So let’s give him a call.

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Yeah, let’s get him on the line here. See what Kyle has to say.

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Please note as our options have changed.

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That didn’t sound like Kyle. Hello.

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You have reached the Hickory Game and Fish Department. Our office hours are 8:00 AM to 5:00 PM Mountain Standard, Monday through Friday. Press two for Kyle, tater y l i. Boom. Please hold while your call is being transferred to Kyle Tater.

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This is Kyle.

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Kyle, Jason Carter and Adam Bronson. How are you?

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Hey guys, how’s it going? Good.

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Good. We don’t have the coronavirus, but we are sick. How are you doing?

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Oh, I’m doing well, man. We, we survived the show season. Did you? So coronavirus,

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I don’t know if that’s where we caught it or not, but we’re, we’re on the recovery at least we’re all infecting each other here. We’re kind of quarantined in this office, but

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You guys stay in Utah. Yeah.

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Yeah. So, yeah, well, we’ll get through it.

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How’s your weather been? What’s your, you’ve been getting crushed with this last round of storms in the last week or

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So. Yeah, I mean, we’ve been, in general, we’ve been pretty mild the last week or so. We had a lot of rain and a little bit of snow, but in general, fairly mild winter so far.

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Yeah, that’s nice. So maybe give us a quick rundown of how the season went. It seemed like you guys did kill some great animals coming off the reservation. How, maybe how things went and then maybe a just, you know, quick outline of how you think this year’s shaping up.

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Sure. So 2019, we were back to normal is what I’d say. ’cause 2018 was one of the worst drought years we’ve ever seen. So as far as tribal member hunts, you know, we had the typical two week hunt in October, which high success hunt for tribal members. Biggest buck was a a 200 inch buck. I think we just officially entered them in Boone and Crockett at 1 95 geez net. And then when, I mean back to normal, the, the client hunts, our average is back to 200 gross or better. So it was right at 200 this year with a variety of bucks, scale some, you know, anything from big typicals to, you know, big heavy stuff with trash. So kind of what the Hickory is known for and get to be back on that track.

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Yeah, that’s awesome. Is it just for the people that don’t know the difference between tribal tribals just a little bit earlier and not in the rutt, whereas your later season hunts are the ones that you, you know, sell to clients?

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Sure, yeah. So the, the priority of of our program is to provide good hunting for tribal members. The secondary objective there would be, you know, as a result of our management for tribal members, there’s some phenomenal opportunity for non-tribal members. So tribal members, tribal, the majority of licenses are issued for tribal hunts that are the last two weeks of October typically. And then for non-member or client hunts, those range from mid-November through the Draw hunt, which is the first 10 days of December. So, like I said, just a, a phenomenal opportunity. What what we want is for folks to come here that are lucky enough to draw or obtain a tag to leave here thinking like this is a world class resource and we’re treated fairly and kill a buck of 10 lifetimes. Yeah.

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Before we maybe get into all the rest of the hunting you do deer obviously being one that we all probably more most known for. Tell us a little bit about what you do, Kyle, your background and what you do for the tribe there, what your role is.

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Okay, so first of all, I’ve, I’m a lifelong hunter, a conservationist. I grew up in Dulce. So having grown up in this community, it’s really hard not to be a, a hunter for one and to, to have a love for wildlife. And definitely always remember the big bucks as a kid here and sort of shaped my future. So when I left high school here, I went down and got a degree in range science and then ended up getting a master’s in wildlife management. So. Gotcha.

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Where’d you go to school?

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Never really went to school at N M S U. And I, I always dreamed about coming home, but never thought it would ever happen, but the stars aligned

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And yeah, here

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I am.

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Gotcha. Yeah. Not, not like you have a big staff of biologists there. There’s a, there’s a few, you know what I mean? It’s like very limited jobs for biologists and so you gotta get the one or two, you know what I mean? Well, so well

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The, the mul deer nut that, that likes big mul deer and wants to manage for them, you know, those jobs are, are, are few, so

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That’s right.

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Anyway, so that’s what I do. I I’m the, the biologist here obviously, and I’ve been doing it for 12 years now, so

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Geez, what a great job. Yeah. Well, you know, we, I agree. We met, I think it’s your, is it your brother? That’s Ian. Ian Taylor, yeah. My,

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Yeah, my brother Ian. Yeah, he’s the, the older uglier er,

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You know, he’s actually a good dude. We, we were up there having dinner at the Hunt Expo and shared a table with him and it was such, such a small world, I guess he’s working for Wyoming Game and Fish now.

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Yeah. He’s also a biologist. He runs the Habitat program for a Wyoming game fish. So it, like I said, I’ve been growing up here. I think it shaped both of us and, and sent us down that path.

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Yeah. Anyway, super good guy. It was fun to visit with him and anyway, small world of course. Anyway, so he didn’t, he, he worked for a reservation down there in, in New Mexico prior to that job with Wyoming, right?

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Yeah. He actually worked for Acoma Pueblo of Acoma and, and ran the, the biology there for probably 10 years. And, you know, Yakima’s got some, some great elk and you know, I I, that’s actually where I got my master’s degree working on the elk down there, so. Gotcha. It is a small world and, you know, feel blessed for all the opportunities that have come my way and, and you know, hopefully there’s some more coming down the road and keep things on the, on the right path.

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Well he, anyway, yeah, it’s, it was awesome to visit with him. Of course, we’ve been his ear a little bit Wyoming and would love to see amazing deer come back and whatnot. And of course he’s over habitat seemed like statewide. So anyway, we’ve been his air a little bit and had a good time that night, so great guy. But anyway, so yeah, I guess that kind of sets Tee tees us up here far as mule deer you guys do. Of course you do some surveys after everything’s all the dust clears and, and the hunters go home and, and obviously back to normal, like you said with gross 200 inch average for, for non-tribal hunts and whatnot. Just an amazing statistic. I mean, that’s kind of the holy grail for any and all mule deer hunters don’t know many guys that would be, you know, passing something like that up. So that’s one of the best mule deer hunting opportunities in the entire Western US that we know of. But what now, how does that set the, set the stage for 2020? I mean, obviously, you know, they don’t kill ’em all and just wondering, you know, how things are looking, we got into the weather a little bit, but then also maybe post-season surveys.

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Yeah, so what makes us unique is we actually set seasons and quotas and everything every year, which is, puts a huge management and monitoring burden on, on the department to collect the right data every year. So everything from antler scores to teeth to habitat monitoring to, of course aerial surveys every January is, is basically the, the recipe that we follow using these data. We, we come up with an annual proclamation, which we just released. It’s on our website. And then we, we sort of forecast the, the, the coming year. So just real quick, we were talking about, you know, the standard of big bucks. I took some notes since 2012, which is when I started. So eight years ago we’ve had 68 bucks with 200 inch gross or better tribal member and non of those 68, I only go back to 2012 ’cause it’s hard to, you know, go past anything that I wasn’t collecting, but 21 minimum eligible for all time booting Crockett. So, wow. I think that’s a testament to our program and testament to how well we’re able to keep this thing going long term. We’ve been doing this for close to 40 years now.

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Some things that, that sort of guide my day is the, the uncertainty is inevitable, especially in, you know, complex wild systems. It’s something that, that I think most biologists would agree with. And, you know, we gotta be able to, to adapt and react to challenges as they, especially on a, a modern multiple use landscape. So that absolutely requires constant collection of data, which is, you know, comes full circle to why we do it. The other thing that, especially with mule deer is a lot of the literature these days is saying mule deer lack the ability to adapt quickly to change. So again, if without the right information, the right data collected, you know, we could be missing the, the boat big time in a matter of years, you know, one or two years. So been very blessed. Another thing that makes us super unique is we’ve always had a, a lot of support from the community, from the tribal membership, tribal council president for the last 40 years.

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This is something that they are behind Absolutely 100% mule deer are key. They are a, a cultural species. They’re important to the, to the community. So anyway, as far as what 2020 is looking like, so we’re managed for abundance, we manage for age class, all those things are in place. 2020 should be a banner year based on what I’ve seen from the helicopter and what the data’s telling me. Otherwise, of course, the one factor and the one that can trump everything is precipitation. You know, if we’re not getting ample spring and summer preci, that, that seems to hinder us pretty bad, so. Hmm.

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What age, what do you, what do you guys figure the key age? What, what are you managing for?

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So the overall, for the client hunts, it’s a minimum of four. Last year was five and a half average, but we’ve had bucks killed in the 13 year old range come on before. Hmm. Which is, you know, beyond grandpa stage for a mule deer buck. But yeah, typically we’re managing for a, for a four to seven year old type buck, including the tribal harvest. So

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You alluded to it a minute ago about the uniqueness of some of the things within the reservation and way you manage. Can you think of things, you know, outside, I mean, you’re obviously a wildlife biologist, but you’re in a little bit of a unique setting, being on a, on a reservation and maybe can have maybe different tools at your disposal that maybe aren’t as easily accessed as on public land, but landscape management or, you know what, whatever. Can you maybe talk about a few of the things that you feel maybe set some of your management a mule deer, whether it be specific, you know, management practices or habitat related stuff, or predator. What, what do you think maybe Sure. Maybe is unique?

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I’d say, I’d say all of it. And, and the, the refreshing part about working for Hickory, I can’t speak for all tribes, but for Hickory is habitat and populations would be under the same roof, meaning we can coordinate that effort hand in hand. So not to say there aren’t challenges with other multiple on a multiple use landscape, you know, oil and gas, whatever, you know, there’s a lot of other things on the landscape, but what, what I would say that makes us unique is we are self-governed. We’re self-reliant. So if we wanted to go do a project that we thought benefited mule deer or elk or habitat or whatever, there’s very little delay. There’s no red tape. You know, that, that makes us super unique. Makes my job very refreshing and, and makes me wanna come to work. You know, there’s not a whole lot of bureaucracy if, if you get what I mean. So

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Yeah, kinda like our business here, like if we’re small and we get to do what we want, you guys kind of get to do what you want. That’s what

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I’m hearing. Yeah. A good example was when I, when I got hired in 2012, we needed to update some of the migration data that was done in the eighties. And the technology has come so far, you know. Yeah. I presented it and they said, go for it. You know, so the next January we were collaring deer just like that. Wow. So, like I said, we, we got a lot of support, we got a lot of folks understand the importance of, of what we’re doing. And, and it’s, it’s a great place to, to be.

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I wanna talk about the age real quick. You say you’ve got five and a half, you’re managing for four or everybody killing a four, four year old. But you know, if we came in at five and a half, we would issue more tags here. And so how does that play into your management? Are you, you’re at five and a half, does that mean you get to issue more tags or are you also taking in social pressures and a gut feel of well we don’t want to issue more tags even though we’re above age objective?

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Sure. Yeah. So then that’s sort of the, the slip slippery slope of having, you know, written down objectives. So there is the gut feel, you know, are we where we need to be? I have a whole bunch of written sort of guidelines that, that, that help me understand our, our harvested age structure a little bit better because we also have things like meat harvest for tribal members that are younger bucks. We don’t wanna make, we wanna make sure that that doesn’t become additive through time. So when I say, you know, we’re managing for four to seven, there’s some flexibility there. On average though, the one that I’m looking at the most is the, the, the non-member hunts. So when I say we’re managing for a minimum of four,

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You’re talking about mountain tribal,

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That should be the absolute bottom. Yeah. We should be killing 5, 6, 7. Okay. And there really isn’t a whole lot of pressure, you know, that maybe a state agency would have saying, well, you got too many bucks on the landscape, that just doesn’t exist. So yeah, you’re not, abundance is, abundance is key, especially if you’re trying to kill big bucks. You know, not every buck is gonna be a 200 inch mule. And in order to do that, you need to have several bucks on the landscape. So,

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Well, yeah, here in the states, I mean, normal state side type management, if they, they’re seeing a lot of game, they’re issuing more tags, whereas you’re, you guys, it feels like you’re saying we’re seeing a lot of bucks, but we like seeing a lot of bucks. May not, may not, our tag numbers may not, to me having

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A buck die of old age is, is a, a great thing. So

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That’s awesome. Wow. How do you manage, you know, the migration, how, you know, does, how does that play into the aria? Or are you basically, do you feel like you guys in the non-tribal later type hunts or hunting resident here, you know, how does that come into play with your average age and if, is it hard to deal with any migrations from Colorado and mixing with your residents?

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So yeah, the more data we collect on migration, the, the better field we have for what, you know, how that looks. And the, the most recent stuff says migration is occurring in October, early October, no matter what, whether there’s snow up high or not, which is pretty fascinating stuff. It’s more of a internal time clock in the deer as far as the hunting is concerned. We’ve been doing these the October hunt for tribal members. So in essence they, they’re getting the best of both worlds on that hunt. Little bit of resident, little bit of of migrant. So, you know, the timing of an October hunt can be challenging based on a whole variety of, of yeah. You know, tough environmental issues, moon, whatever. Yeah. You know, and then the, obviously the December hunt is, should be most deer or on winter range, which we are winter range. We, we are where the Rocky Mountains meets the Colorado plateau. So the landscape is super important for, for the region, I would say. And, and we treat it as such.

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Do you have internal, I guess I don’t know what how to word this with, you know, obviously you guys have a very, very conservative, we’ll just call it management strategy, like you said, manage for older deer, things like that. How do you, how do you balance that with some of the migration, the deer that leave and all that? I guess there’s really nothing you can do, but, but it, that’s a, that’s tough. And I guess, you know, we hear about it from other people in the western states, so, you know, you manage a well-managed privately owned ranch and then your deer leave and they get hunted by other people down the road, you know, as the deer move and leave. And that’s a, that’s a challenge for you as well to raise deer and not be able to keep ’em all year long, obviously. And you know, you are a thoroughfare for deer coming in outta Colorado and filtering through you and then maybe filter back through, back into New Mexico, you know, b l m or state ground as well. How do

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You, well, I’d be lying if I said that wasn’t a concern. Yeah. But luckily we have 850,000 acres and that helps. Yeah.

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Just the other cool thing about the landscape is from tip to tip, it’s browse rich, it’s cover rich, everything that mul deer want. The other cool thing is the elevational relief from north to south. So we have a variety of habitats that should an animal need to migrate further. Hopefully they migrate down on land that is managed and owned by the tribe. But yeah, I mean, there’s not a whole lot you can do over migrant animal that crosses the fence. It’s a very complex thing, unfortunately. And, you know, we don’t, we try to focus on the, on the positive on what we can do here on the reservation. And, and, and stick to that,

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You know, what type of like vegetation manipulation treatments in that, have you guys been able to do to obviously stimulate your brows or to reduce, you know, pinon juniper encroachment, things like that. Give us some examples of, of some of the larger scope projects you’ve been working on

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It, the, the recent efforts and sort of test plots, if you will, have been in more sagebrush enhancement than anything. So like a Dixie Harrow treatment with some reseeded thrown on top. We’ve been getting some pretty good results out of that. So we want to take that to some other areas that, that we think it would work. So that’s a very complex thing in itself, you know, whether it’s feasible or not, and are we gonna make it worse with cheat grass or whatever type concerns. So the other thing that has been going on for a long, long time is b i a forestry does a lot of commercial thinning of pine stands and things like that and get some, some sunlight on the ground and, you know, start creating some more food in more of the summer ranges of the reservation. So all good things, you know, and then moving forward in the future, we’ve been looking at some shredding and, and mulching, hydro axing of PJ stands, creating some little wildlife treatments kind of in more transitional or mid elevational ranges.

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So a little bit of everything. And, and as far as the monitoring side of things of habitat, we’ve been collecting browse production and utilization data on our southern meses for, oh, since 2002. So fascinating stuff to, to, to collect and to analyze and to see how important and these habitats are and how sensitive they are to timing and amount of precipitation more than anything else. So we feel like it’s a, a a, the big picture, you know, everything is related to, to everything else and that’s important. So we, we try to collect as much data as possible on that sort of stuff and then use that data to, to guide, you know, habitat, treatments, things like that.

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Well that’s awesome. So I know you guys have been aggressive in predator control as well over the years and especially in years past that, that I’m personally aware of, but maybe talk a little bit about that and how you guys

00:22:56:29 –> 00:24:13:04
Sure. So in, in 1982, I believe the tribe hired their first biologist and mainly as a result of, there were very few deer on the landscape, there were some issues. The mule deer heyday, quote unquote, had come and gone. So the gentleman collared a bunch of deer and found out that all of the mortality factor was either coyotes or illegal hunting. So as a result, they, they responded like, like any good game department would, they started doing some pretty intensive predator management and along with some pretty robust law enforcement initiatives. So those things are still in existence today and sort of the hallmark of, of what we’re doing, the foundation of the program. So when it comes to predator management, I always like to say, you know, if it’s, if it’s a, it’s a very site specific thing, it’s something that once you do, you gotta commit to, basically we’re creating a window for fawn recruitment or calf recruitment.

00:24:15:02 –> 00:25:06:15
So we’re ultra aggressive when it comes to coyote management. We also have several Mount Lyon and, and black bear type hunts, but those are all under limited entry type type seasons. So I would say as a result in the eighties where the first classification survey counted 1300 year total to today, where, you know, with fewer hours, I’m counting closer to four or 5,000 deer per flight. You know, I think it’s a testament to, to predator management and where we’ve come since, since the early eighties. So super important something that, that we will continue to do in through time. So

00:25:07:20 –> 00:25:26:03
What, what type of things you’re specifically doing? You, you addressed the, the, the draw or limited entry tags for lions or bears, but for coyotes specifically, what do you, what did you implement then? What has been changed modified? How do you continue to put pressure on that? Sure. So what’s that look like?

00:25:26:12 –> 00:26:05:25
So in the mid eighties they hired a full-time department trapper and that position is still here today. So we’ve got a guy that, that his, his full job is to, to handle wildlife related conflicts. But you know, that’s his big job description. But really it’s, it’s coyote. So the other thing that we do is, in the eighties they also instituted a bounty for tribal members to bring in coyotes. And I would say that has been the most effective tool that we’ve used. Wow. Since 1983 probably to put constant pressure on, on coyotes.

00:26:05:26 –> 00:26:07:11
What is it? What’s the bounty?

00:26:08:08 –> 00:26:09:04
40 bucks a dog.

00:26:09:23 –> 00:26:17:26
Okay, that’s awesome. That’s still in place today, huh? For tribal members? No place the day. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Interesting. So

00:26:18:08 –> 00:26:29:28
How does a guy go about getting a tag? Like let’s say, let’s say somebody wants to, you know, apply, obviously have an application system, you can cover that real quick before we move on to the other species. Sure.

00:26:30:23 –> 00:27:35:25
So for deer deere is high demand. We only issue seven Deere tags on draw the remaining five, so 12 total. The remaining five are either live auction or, or some form of seal bid through our office. So if you wanted to put in for the general draw, that application can be downloaded from our website, hickory It’s the draw application form. You simply submit a $50 check with your name, one name per form, get it here before June 1st and that enters you into the draw. Okay. Should you draw the license and the odds are have typically been one in 14 or one in 15 over the last few years, 17 five would be due. And then, you know, you gotta hire a tribal member guide, you gotta book your room and meals and all that stuff are on you. So, okay. That’s the basic policy for applying for the draw and you know, the lucky seven that get drawn and they come deer hunting in December.

00:27:37:13 –> 00:27:54:10
Okay, there you go. 17,500 plus the guide fee plus food and lodging and yes sir, from what I understand, guide fees are fairly reasonable up there. So anyway, so if a guy wants to do that, you can get on. What’s your website real quick? Kyle hickory

00:27:54:11 –> 00:28:00:12 So Hickory hunt, j i c a r i l l a

00:28:00:25 –> 00:28:16:18
Okay. We also understand you have a good population of elk. Do you wanna go into that? It seems like you guys have some good elk hunting opportunities and then tags that maybe don’t sell out so fast and gives guys an opportunity to to really to go and enjoy that and possibly harvest a real good bull as well.

00:28:17:13 –> 00:29:47:02
Sure. So our, our elk program is often overshadowed by the, the nature of our, our mule deer program. So, but honestly we have way more opportunity for elk. We have some really great elk hunting and I always, the way that I try to sell it to folks that are interested in is if you, if you love elk hunting, this is a great place to come because of the abundance of elk, the number of opportunities we have, whether it’s a cow elk or a, you know, a a a late season bull or an early season bull archery muzzle loader. We’ve got a lot of different opportunities. So what the, what mother nature provides in North central New Mexico is on average a 3 0 5 to three 10 type bull every once in a while. We’ll, you know, we’ll we’re, we’re well above that three 20 to three 30, but the average tells us, you know, that’s what to expect. So we manage it same to same as deer. We want old bulls on the landscape, we want mature bulls and have a variety of hunts to, to get you out on the landscape. So those are issued a lot differently than our deer actually March 2nd, which is this coming Monday, we will start selling those first come first serve over the phone and all of those are, you know, they typically sell within a week or so. But if, if there’s any interest in March 2nd is the day this year.

00:29:48:13 –> 00:30:09:12
Okay. Tell us a little bit about the opportunities and I know that we can direct people to your website, like you said you put your proclamation on there. But in summary, what, what do you have season date wise, weapon, date wise? What are the different opportunities they have and that’s maybe going to some of the costs associated with those and the guides required and, and things like that.

00:30:10:07 –> 00:30:36:23
Okay, so the, the archery hunt last five days of September, that’s the res white archery, that’s a $6,050 license plus guide, meals, lodging, all that stuff. So what folks tell me that have hunted that is they don’t really tell their friends about it because it’s, it’s that good. So maybe this podcast will, will start to liven

00:30:36:26 –> 00:30:37:04
That up

00:30:38:22 –> 00:31:40:26
Anyway. They, they can expect to have several encounters every day with, with bull elk, you know, and like I said, if you like elk hunting, you like bugling, like chasing bugles, kind of a cool place to come and, and try it. High success, that’s what makes us super unique on these archery hunts. This last year that success was 75%, which is unheard of as, as far as I’m concerned, as far as an archery average. So, so that’s archery. We also have some southern unit flexibility with archery and muzzle loader and that’s very limited tags. There’s six licenses down there that’s also a $6,000 archery tag. You can roll that hunt into a muzzle loader hunt for a thousand bucks it’d be 7,000 bucks. But the advantage of the south unit is it’s a seven day hunt. You can roll your own hunt dates between the first and the 25th. So a little bit more flexibility for a guy that, that may have a tight schedule in September.

00:31:41:07 –> 00:31:45:11
Is there more elk in the southern, fewer elk in the Southern? Why do you give the flexibility?

00:31:45:13 –> 00:31:52:20
I would say there’s fewer elk in the southern unit. Okay. But you know, that’s a, I think we’re splitting hairs when I say that. Yeah, there’s, there’s a lot of

00:31:52:20 –> 00:31:58:00
Elk ville. You just add some flexibility to it. That’s, that’s the main reason why you’re doing it that way. Sure,

00:31:58:11 –> 00:32:48:15
Sure. Well we also have the, the res wide hunt for tribal members is happening the first through the 25th as well. Archery bull hunt. So we just needed to, we made a subunit to provide another opportunity essentially. So still a great hunt. The standard of, you know, high success, lots of bulls is still there. So, and then moving forward, the next hunt would be the early rifle. October 1st through fifth or sixth through 10th. There’s two hunts there. That is by far the most popular hunt. Typically those elk are still bugling. So it’s essentially a rifle bugle hunt that is an $8,050 license. Again, first come, first serve March 2nd top-notch, phenomenal hunt was, it’s, it’s a, a very unique hunt in my mind.

00:32:50:24 –> 00:33:29:12
And then we have more later season hunts. So November 1st through fifth, sort of a transitional hunt. Still, honestly, the last couple years it seems like the biggest bulls have been killed on that hunt score wise. And then the late season hunt, which is what I would call more of an adventure hunt. ’cause we can have two feet of snow or two feet of mud, you know, depending on what things are looking like out there. And a lot of glass and a lot of spot in stock, you know, looking through big old bulls that you need to find one that isn’t broken up and you know, kind of a cool experience in itself. So those two late season hunters, $7,000 license.

00:33:30:00 –> 00:33:33:27
All right. And everything is all required guide required. Right.

00:33:34:17 –> 00:33:37:11
Everything we do requires a tribal member guide. Yes.

00:33:38:00 –> 00:33:45:15
And when do those sell out? Or, or you know, how long does the guy have? I know they go on sale here shortly, but, you know,

00:33:46:09 –> 00:33:47:11
So yeah, I would say give us a

00:33:47:11 –> 00:33:48:00
Sense of urgency

00:33:48:00 –> 00:34:05:26
Within a day. The, the early rifle hunts are gonna be okay taken, gone that day. So if someone has interest March 2nd, they need to get on the horn. Okay. For the early rifle archery, you know, it’s similar, there’s lots of demand, but really depends on, on the year, who’s coming back, et cetera, you know, that sort of thing. Yeah.

00:34:06:05 –> 00:34:07:18
Do you give first ride of refusal

00:34:07:20 –> 00:34:08:04
And then the late season,

00:34:08:09 –> 00:34:13:00
Do you give the first, I’m sorry, go ahead. Do you give first ride of refusal the guys that were, that come to the fire

00:34:13:00 –> 00:34:14:13
Or everybody’s still got call,

00:34:14:13 –> 00:34:16:16
But the guys, you know, the procedures, they, they

00:34:16:16 –> 00:34:17:04
Just jump on,

00:34:17:18 –> 00:34:21:27
They’re on the horn. Yeah, they’re calling us at, at 7 59, so

00:34:22:01 –> 00:34:33:00
8:00 AM on the second and they’re there. Okay. All right. And then, and then you got cow walk opportunities and things like that as well as later in the year. Yeah.

00:34:33:00 –> 00:35:15:18
So as far as demand, I would say cow elk are probably second to mule deer. We, we get a lot of interest for our antlerless licenses, so mainly from back east it seems. But you know, we, we welcome whoever wants to come and we issue a lot of opportunity for that and that’s how we, we reregulate our elk herd. Elk seem to be doing very well these days as far as growing, expanding, you know, recruiting calves, things like that. So the way we we keep that in check is through these cow hunts. And so that’s also a draw that’s on the same form that you would apply for mul deer. The draw application form,

00:35:15:27 –> 00:35:21:04
So the cow’s on the draw, all these bull tags you just talked about are all first come first just call or buy first,

00:35:21:04 –> 00:35:21:29
First serve. Yeah.

00:35:22:00 –> 00:35:24:10
What’s the drawing ons if a guy wants a cow tag,

00:35:24:24 –> 00:36:14:28
Roughly, you know, they’re really good. So what we, the way we do it is you get to, you have four choices. We have a variety of seasons and you know, south unit, north unit res wide, late, early, a lot of different opportunities. So a guy would have to figure out what his priorities are for choices and we draw apps so when we pull an application, we’ll look at those choices and try to fit ’em within the quota. As a result. If you’re, if if you’re dead set on, on a res cow two hunt or something like that, a reservation wide cow and that’s your only choice, then you’re odd to go down significantly. But if you diversify those choices and are flexible in your dates, I i more often than not, I would say probably 90% draw if

00:36:14:28 –> 00:36:17:17
You do that. And what’s your price on your cow cow tax?

00:36:17:20 –> 00:36:23:16
It’s a $50 application fee per person, just like the Deere. If you draw it’s 750 bucks

00:36:23:23 –> 00:36:26:01
And is it due June same as Deere or

00:36:26:01 –> 00:36:27:28
Earlier? Yeah, it’s due June 1st

00:36:28:25 –> 00:36:33:13
And then you hire a guide for the two day or two, huh. Whatever you gotta have. Right. So,

00:36:33:20 –> 00:36:33:26

00:36:34:27 –> 00:37:02:07
What is your, and I know you’re, you’re independent of, of your guides because you, you can see a list of guides on your website. I know I’ve been on there before, but for our listeners that are maybe not sure if they’re interested in buying one of these bull tags that we talked about a bit ago, what is a, what is a range for let’s say a five day hunt? What, what are you, you’ve gotta have an idea of what most people are Sure. Charging. What, what are people looking at on top of their permit fees that they’re, that we went through a minute ago.

00:37:02:23 –> 00:37:56:17
Gotcha. So, so I’ll tell you what the fair market price for a guide is and what guides are getting paid on some ranches around your other outfitters, things like that. And I think that’s probably the best way to to, to keep that. So two 50 to 300 a day times the number of days that you’re, you’re out there not including any gratuity, stuff like that. Yeah. So if a guy was interested in a, you know, one of our five day rifle hunts or, or whatever or archery hunt, you know, that would, that would start to form a budget for ’em. And the casino hotel here is called WildHorse Casino and Hotel. They’ll sell you a room for a hundred bucks a night. There’s a few restaurants in town. I mean Dulces not exactly a metropolis building Metropolis. Yeah. But we try to take care of the hunters that come here and, you know, go from there. So.

00:37:56:17 –> 00:38:12:04
Gotcha. So not, not too, not too expensive, you know, paying daily late rates for the most part for a five day hunt. Most all those bull hunts, the archery and the muzzle slash rifle are all five days on your seasons on those or is it, or is there some of ’em are longer than that?

00:38:13:08 –> 00:38:15:12
No, traditionally they’re five day hunts.

00:38:15:12 –> 00:38:32:12
Yeah. Okay. So not, not too expensive I guess is what, what we’re trying to drive home here. I mean, you know, it’s not like you’re attacking a five or six, not, not like you’re tacking a five or 6,000 super affordable and guide fee on top of a, you know, seven or $8,000 hunt. It’s not like that. Sure. So yeah,

00:38:32:24 –> 00:38:38:05
Super affordable and, and for what you’re getting, getting, I think it’s, it’s definitely worth the, the money.

00:38:38:20 –> 00:38:48:00
Talk about maybe a few of the other species, I guess bear and Turkey, I mean to non-tribal, you know, have good opportunities at that as well or is that something for tribal? Yeah,

00:38:48:00 –> 00:38:56:19
So we have a spring, spring bear, fall bear. We also have mountain lions and all of those things are on a spring draw. So that will be coming up pretty soon as well.

00:38:57:20 –> 00:39:00:10
Let’s do in, I believe it’s March sometime, isn’t it?

00:39:00:23 –> 00:39:54:02
I believe it’s March 16th is the deadline. I’d have to look at the proc on that one. But anyway, so they, you apply the same way. The only difference there is instead of a $50 application fee, what we’re asking for is all money up front to enter the draw for the license fee. So that’s, you know, 6, 6 50, somewhere in that range depending on if it’s a Mount Lion app or a Bear app. And then the way that works is you have a season, a spring season, and then you have a fall season for Bear. You would have to hire a tribal member guide that does bears and coordinate with him and, and go from there and then choose your own dates within the season. So although the season might be April 15th through June, you would, your hunt is only gonna be the some five days that you decide between you and your dad

00:39:54:02 –> 00:39:55:19
Bucket with him for bear. Gotcha.

00:39:56:17 –> 00:40:11:28
Then Mount Lion is, is we have 20 licenses on, on a draw. And the way that works is very similar. If you draw, essentially you reserve your tag and then you would choose your own seven days throughout the season. The season is year round, so

00:40:13:08 –> 00:40:17:23
You have to pre choose so you don’t Nope. Or, or can you choose right before you go

00:40:17:23 –> 00:40:56:25
Flexibility for snow. Yeah, yeah. For snow. You’re waiting on snow is is what you’re doing. So yeah, so those are those two things. And turkeys, you know, I I I definitely enjoy chasing turkeys in the spring and this is one of the best hunts I can think of for Miriam’s. It’s a really cool hunt. Lots and lots of turkeys. Really cool time of year to be out in the woods. You cannot shed hunt if anyone’s asking, you know, I’ll go buy a, a Turkey tag and go shed hunting instead. No. Anyway. Yeah. So that, that’s first come first serve coming up. Is

00:40:56:25 –> 00:41:02:17
There a li a limit to ’em or is, I mean obviously first come, first serve or, I mean, tough to get a Turkey tag.

00:41:02:17 –> 00:41:07:13
Well, there’s a five, it’s a $550 license and there’s 30 tags available. So, and

00:41:07:13 –> 00:41:09:10
They go on sale March 2nd as well. Same tag

00:41:09:10 –> 00:41:54:26
March 2nd they go on sale and that’s when you’d, you’d reserve your license. So on any of these first come first serve licenses, all we’re doing is, you know, we’re we, we want folks to call in and tell us yes, I, I’d like a Turkey tag. And what we’ll do is we’ll write their name and information on the roster and you have five business days to get us an application and fees and the, the license is here. So, okay. We’re trying to simplify the process. We’re trying to stay away from draws the best we can, trying to get folks to commit to coming to hunt here in the fall before any of the western draws are are out. And it seems to be working and, and you know, we’re getting some pretty good feedback from, from some of the hunters that have come here the last couple years, so.

00:41:55:06 –> 00:42:00:28
Awesome. Well, is there any stories, did you get out to hunt yourself? Did you kill one of these 200 iners or?

00:42:02:05 –> 00:42:05:04
I don’t, I don’t get to hunt here. I come, can’t, can’t afford to hunt here, you know,

00:42:05:05 –> 00:42:05:12

00:42:05:12 –> 00:42:07:01
Just a holy biologist, but Jeez,

00:42:07:15 –> 00:42:07:22

00:42:07:22 –> 00:42:23:14
I, I apply for many western states every year and my draw odds are terrible. So, but I did get out in Colorado fourth season, had a, had a good time and killed a, a nice old buck. Didn’t, didn’t score very well, but nice old buck. I’m happy with them, but

00:42:24:26 –> 00:42:29:22
Down in that country Yeah, country close to you, just north of you. Yeah, that’s, well that’s awesome. That

00:42:29:22 –> 00:42:30:05
General area.

00:42:30:14 –> 00:42:30:23

00:42:31:08 –> 00:42:38:22
Well that’s awesome. Well, is there anything you want to add as we, as we close down this thing and want to tell anybody, anything that we missed or

00:42:39:07 –> 00:42:57:26
I would just say, you know, check us out online and feel free to pick up the phone if there’s any questions. There’s a lot of misinformation and that, and I think my job, one of my roles is to make sure that we provide good information and I appreciate the opportunity to be on the, the podcast to do that. So

00:42:58:11 –> 00:43:17:19
Yeah, you’ve given us your website, we appreciate that and we’ll make sure we have a, a link to that as well. But what is, since some, some individuals might listen to this before March 2nd and want to jump on the phone, what is the phone number that they need to be calling March, March 2nd or later to try if they’re interested in buying one of these hunts we talked about?

00:43:17:25 –> 00:43:23:05
Sure. Area code 5 7 5 7 5 9 3 2 5 5.

00:43:23:22 –> 00:43:25:25
And it’s as well.

00:43:26:13 –> 00:43:44:12
Hickory is is the, is where we send everybody the, the first step is downloading the proclamation and reading and understanding the seasons and, you know, anything like that. So if there’s, if there are any questions, feel free to gimme a call. I’m happy to, to have those conversations.

00:43:45:03 –> 00:44:00:16
All right. Kyle, we sure appreciate you being on with us. It’s awesome. It’s always fun to talk about big deer you’re seeing, couldn’t help but thinking you’re surveying four to 5,000 head of deer out of the helicopter. You probably saw a good one. How, how good,

00:44:03:19 –> 00:44:04:24
How good a buck am I seeing?

00:44:05:05 –> 00:44:06:07
Yeah, that’s, yeah,

00:44:06:15 –> 00:44:10:02
Yeah. Those pictures are, are stored in a, a vault somewhere, but

00:44:10:10 –> 00:44:10:22
Yeah. Okay.

00:44:10:22 –> 00:44:27:10
Alright. No, I would say out of, just to, to put it into perspective, I’ve flown 12 surveys since I’ve been here and this, this 20 early 2020 survey was the best survey I’ve flown for big bucks.

00:44:27:18 –> 00:44:28:13
Come on, period.

00:44:28:27 –> 00:44:29:06

00:44:29:06 –> 00:44:29:22
On. Yep.

00:44:30:23 –> 00:44:50:29
And not just saying that that’s, that’s, that’s teaser. That’s a mega teaser right there. We need either Bronson, we need to either figure out how to hunt the hick or hunt everywhere around the hickory, huh? Alright. You and everyone else. That’s right. All right, Kyle. Well have a good day, man. Appreciate your time, Kyle. We appreciate you. Yeah, good talking with you guys. All right, talk to you later.