EP 156: Gunnison Basin Mule Deer, with Connor Clark

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Talk about Gunnison mule deer. Boy, Bronson. Do you think anybody cares about that? I think there's a few people that care about deer in Colorado, let alone Gunnison is probably the one of the most talked about deer herds in the state at this moment in time. Of course, for the past 15 or 20 years. Good grief, huh? Yeah, exactly right. Kind of a high elevation winter range there in the Gunnison Basin. They are susceptible to winter loss. There are also lots of good access down there. People just love it. It's a lot of fun. But those sportsmen down there are extremely passionate about their deer. And they've got a little sportsman's group that kind of runs the show, seems like. And sometimes they get to convince biologists to deviate from statewide management practices to cater to Gunnison a little bit. And they're wound up a little bit at this moment in history.

Let's get old Connor Clark of Trader Rendezvous store down there. I think it's got the largest display of mounted trophies and antlers in the entire state of Colorado. Let's get him on the line. What do you think, Bronson? Do it.

Hello. Is this Connor? Yes, it is. How's it going, guys? Good. Good. How are you? Good. Connor, we want to welcome you on the podcast here at Epic Outdoors. We appreciate you being on and maybe, you know, discussing Gunnison, mule deer down there. Of course, it's probably one of the hottest topics for mule deer within the state of Colorado. And you guys are extremely passionate. You've got a group of sportsmen down there. You've also, you've even encouraged the Game and Fish to alter a few recommendations in the past, I know, and really try to, you know, grow some big old bucks. And so, I don't know, maybe we'll just let you talk a little bit about yourself, your background, and then a little bit about this sportsman's group, and then kind of the state of the nation address down there in Gunnison. Okay. Sounds good. Yeah. Yeah. Connor Clark. I'm from Gunnison, Colorado. I grew up here.

My dad moved here when he was probably six, I think, with his family. And I've been here ever since. I actually really wanted to leave when I was in high school because that's what everybody wants to do here for some weird reason. And then I ended up getting a football scholarship at a local college here. Western Colorado University is what it's called now. And I ended up staying, and I am so glad that I did. It's one of those places where you don't really appreciate it when you're a kid just because it's, you know, it's home and you think every place in the world is like it. And, yeah, and now there's no way you can pull me out of this place now. Wow. That's awesome. Yeah. So what do you do for a living down there? We own a store called Trader's Rendezvous. A bunch of you guys that have been to Gunnison have probably been to it.

It's the place that called the antler store because nobody can remember Trader's Rendezvous, but they remember the antler store coming through Gunnison. And we buy and sell mounts, antlers, guns.

Our slogan is Colorado's largest display amount of trophies and antlers. I don't know. Have you guys ever been in the shop? Oh, yeah. It's unbelievable. Yeah. Okay. There's nothing like it. That's about all there is to see down Main Street in Gunnison. You see that if you're a hunter, you're stopping because there's – Yeah, there's going to be – there's – I don't even know how many meelies we have, over 200 on that wall. But we've got quite a few. So, yeah, if you guys are in town, we usually get most of the deer hunters in town to come in and just see what we got. So, yeah, that's what we've been doing since 1988. So, yeah, we buy antlers and buy mounts, but we're finally at the point – I don't know when the last time you guys were there, but we are so shock full of mounts that it's even hard to move around in there.

So, we're actually building a new shop right now to try and move some of those mounts out. So, if you've got antlers for sale, you can sell them to us, but we're done buying mounts unless they're big meelies for now. No 180 bucks. It's kind of false advertising. A guy draws a 551 tag, he kind of expects one of them 200 inchers. I don't know. Yes, and that's what we always joke about. We say we're terrible deer hunters because we go into the store every day and look at that wall, and then we get outside and it's like, yeah, nothing really quite does it after you're looking at that wall every day. No, no. There's nothing out there. So, anyway – So, are you guys selling – we're in the middle of the corona crazy right now. How's the gun and ammo sales over in Gunnison? You can't buy it anywhere. I mean, you can't buy 223, 556. You can't buy anything.

I've been trying to get a hold of some 556 and 223, and I finally got some the other day. I had to order 1,000 rounds, limit one box per person. But, yeah, we're kind of in a – we're in one of the hot spots right now, Gunnison is, where we have quite a few second homeowners here, and they ended up bringing the virus here. And I've had some friends that have had it, and I got one friend who's been in the hospital for probably three weeks now, and I think he's just about getting out. He's about my age, so close to 30, and he was actually sent from Gunnison to Grand Junction to get put on a ventilator, was on a ventilator for a long time. And then they flew him to Provo, Utah, and put him on an ECMO machine, which I didn't know what that was, but it actually oxidates your blood outside of your body before it puts it in.

So they basically put him in an induced coma, and he had to go through that. And he's finally, I guess the other day, walked to the bathroom for the first time, and he hasn't really said much yet. But, yeah, it's the real deal here. Wow. That's a 30 – this is a 30-year-old guy? Yeah. Yeah, this is – No asthma or no prior health problems or anything? No. No, I think he's had pneumonia in the past, so I don't know if that had something to do with it. But he's – yeah, I mean, I play softball in the summer with the guy, and he plays hockey, strong, young dude. Yeah, but then there's other people. His girlfriend had it, no problems at all. You know, she didn't feel very good, but she got over it. And then my friend's dad, who is – he's overweight, on oxygen, and they sent him home about four days later. He went down to Montrose, and they sent him home about four days later. So he's good.

So I don't know. I think it just kind of affects people differently. So we're just – we're in quarantine, but the good news is this isn't a bad place to be quarantined. I mean, I still got – can't go shant hunting, but I can go fishing and, you know. So they do have you limited to not going to the hills? Oh, yeah. I mean – Oh, yeah. How do they limit you? Do they block the dirt roads, or, I mean, is there a spick sign? They close all the dirt roads, and then they put a sign that says, like, antler collection prohibited until, you know, April – after April 31st. But it doesn't – it doesn't matter. You can go on a walk. That's kind of the problem with this whole shed season deal is, you know, you can go walk the dog, cross-country ski, do whatever, but you just can't get down to pick up an antler. So I understand what they're trying to do with the shed season.

You know, take a little pressure off, but you're only keeping the honest people honest. It's one of those things. Yeah. Speaking of honesty, do you limit yourself to one box ammo? Or do you go ahead and – Do you limit your own self to one box ammo, or when it comes in, you take a pallet out to the truck? Yeah. Yeah, I did actually limit myself, so that was good. All right. All right. Yeah. Is your dad still involved in the business? I mean – or what's the involvement? You're both running it, or – Yep. So when I graduated from college, I got a business degree, and I actually started working at the college. And I worked there for two years. Really liked the people I worked with, but I was basically a data entry desk jockey, and it was not quite doing it for me. So, yeah, I ended up getting my parents to hire me on,

and I kept telling him, you know, we got – he's – my dad is a very old-school business guy, and he just started taking credit cards like three years ago. I mean, he thinks people are going to come in. Yeah, I'm not kidding. He thinks people are going to come in, you know, with $5,000 in cash and buy a big moose head or something. But I'm like, you know what? We've got to start taking credit cards. So that's kind of what I'm doing is just kind of working it into avenues where they never have before, you know, online store. I've got an online store going. And then credit cards and social media and stuff like that, you know, the stuff that the older generations don't like to do. Yeah. So what do you – are you selling heads and sheds, or are you just collecting those? Like if a guy wanted to buy a 200-incher, could I slap my credit card against the machine

and have you knock a couple grand off, or how does that work? Well, I see the big muleys. We're pretty stingy with the big muleys. We'll sell a lot of stuff with the big muleys. I mean, most of the time, if we buy a big shed or buy a big rack or mount, it'll either get hung up in the store or it'll get put in a secret pile in the back corner. Wow. All right. Yeah. So we've got quite a few that – you know, my dad just kind of got into it before there was really on the market for him. So, I mean, he's been doing it 32 years. So it's like he kind of started buying a mule before anybody else was. So he really was able to get a good collection of muleys. If I tried to start that – start what he started now, there's no way that I could even – No, you couldn't. Come close to, you know, getting that amount. So, yeah, we just – we really like our big muleys. So, yeah.

So you've been involved probably in hunting, obviously, since you were a kid. So when did your dad – when did he start thinking, hey – because let's face it, back in the 50s, 60s, 70s, you know, people didn't think, oh, these things are going to be rare one day, hard to get your hands on. I'm going to start hoarding these things. Nobody thought that way. They were dog chews. Yeah, they were just – they tack them to the barn, and when they fade out, get that out of the way. When did he start – or did he always just – was it luck? Did he just hold on to them, and then all of a sudden one day the light bulb went on, like, geez, these are harder to get. I'm going to keep getting my hands on every other one I can find. Yeah, I think he just – I think he just has always loved big muley. He told me a story when he was – he was probably 13 years old, and he used to go pick up antlers,

and nobody else did that because they weren't worth anything, but he just liked to do it. And he still – he wants to cry every time he talks about this. But he picked up – he was hunting with his dad. They own an outfitting business. And he found a deer skull, and he said, I'm not kidding, 250. And he goes, my dad would not let me bring that out. He said, no, we're not bringing that out. We're hunting. We've got paid clients. We're not taking that home. And he begged him and begged him and begged him, and he said it was stinky. So they strapped it to the top of the track and then brought it back, and they wouldn't let him bring it inside. So he threw it in the flower garden in his mom's front yard. And when we sold her house two years ago, he started digging through the willows and pulled out the stubs of the skull.

So he only had about eight inches left, probably six-and-a-half-inch, seven-inch bases, and only about eight inches tall. Everything else got chewed up and destroyed. Oh. Yeah. So I think – and he just always liked doing it. So I think he just – he wanted people to have something to look at when they came in the store. Now, that's kind of part of the appeal is we've got a lot of stuff, but a lot of stuff isn't for sale because if we sold all that stuff, then people are going to want to come in. Yeah, exactly. We've got Nile crocodiles and life-size brown bears and life-size elk and life-size Marco Polo. I mean, we've got, yeah, just a ton of stuff. Talk to us just a little bit about the sportsman's group there and kind of – I don't know if you call it a movement, Mulder initiative movement or whatever, but you guys are very passionate there in Gunnison and almost a cult down there.

Just want to – maybe how did that get started, your dad's involvement, your involvement, and then what is it, who are they, and maybe somebody will dive into some of your concerns. Okay. Yeah, so it's the Gunnison Wildlife Association, and it actually was started, I think, back in the 70s or 80s, and they actually took the Division of Wildlife to court, and I can't even remember what it was over, but that was the original – I think it was over the – was it over the over-the-counter seasons? Yeah. I think it was over the over-the-counter seasons. But anyways, that's when it kind of started, and it kind of died off through probably the last 10 years. But in the last three years, it's really started to pick back up again, trying to get more involvement from the community because it is – I mean, these are the mule deer guys. They are passionate. I mean, we're passionate about all animals,

but we feel like it's our responsibility to hold the local office accountable. Tell them what we're seeing. And, you know, it's full of ranchers, hunters, outfitters. I mean, people that spend hours and hours and hours in the hills. So that's kind of what it's made up of now. I know they get sick of seeing us, the local office, because we are always very vocal. And I guess – I mean, it's just because I grew up here. Like, I thought every place is kind of like that, but it doesn't seem like there's much involvement in other places, you know. But it's – we try to stay really involved just because we can't, you know, we can't sit here and let them do things that we don't think are right without saying something. So we've got a group together, and we're trying to – we're trying – we make meetings with the Division 1 Alive, tell them, you know, what we're seeing and what we're thinking.

And sometimes they say, oh, yeah, you know, you guys are right. You sound like you're right. But then most of the time they go the other direction. So we're really trying to, yeah, increase involvement and just get things accomplished that need to be accomplished. And probably the first thing we need to do is revise or just redo the DAU plan or the H&P Herd Management Plan for deer in the Gunness and Basin. And kind of what we're looking at is trying to increase the herd objective. Have you guys ever taken a look at their model, how the numbers come out, you know, like the total population counts? Yeah, you're basing it off of, you know, to some extent, the harvest data from the previous fall, buck-to-dough ratio going into the fall, or fond-to-dough ratio going into the fall, and fond-to-dough ratio, or fond-to-adult coming out of the winter and modeling that the best they can.

But those, I don't know, the ratios are easier things to measure than population number. That is the... And we're finding here in Utah, it's hard with these new biologists to understand what it once was 30 or 40 years ago and what it's truly capable of. They're saying, they may say, well, this is higher than it's ever been. Well, maybe it's high considering the last 10 or 15 years, but it's really not high. And so, you know, we've run up against that with, I don't know, a younger biologist, let's say. You know what I mean? Guys that weren't there when people were, you know, there was deer everywhere. They inherit numbers on their computer to some extent. And again, the buck-to-dough ratio sampling and fond-to-dough ratio, those things, as long as your sample size is big enough, you can capture that within a certain confidence interval.

But it's pretty tough to survey and estimate and put a number on it, which, you know, on a whole population scale, which then leads you to the discussion of, like, doe tags and all of the things which I know that, you know, we've seen in parts of Colorado, including Gunnison and other places, that is really probably some of the hard things to accept, right? Well, and you guys are dealing with, like, the winter range in Gunnison, you know, and it's open and you can see them, but then you also deal with summer ranges that are, let's say 55, you're dealing with deer that winter down in 43, too. And so it's hard to, you know, those 55 deer in the summer, whose deer are they? Where do they go? And, you know, there's just a number of factors you're dealing with as well. I mean, they'll even go, those 55 deer could even go south over the coached oak.

Our biologist is showing some of the color data, and it's pretty amazing what they do. But the whole thing with, like, the buck-to-dough ratio, like you're talking about, and the doe tags, that's something that I really don't understand. We're implementing doe tags this year. I don't understand why, because they say we are over-objective for our buck-to-dough ratio. So our objective buck-to-dough ratio is 35 to 40 bucks per 100 does. So they say we're over that. Is that on all, I guess, five of those Gunnison units we're talking about? Yeah. 54, 55, 66, 67, 551, all five of them? Yep. So it'll be three DAU or herd management plans. So 54 is by itself, 55 and 551 are together, and then 66 and 67 are together. But yes, yeah. So they're, and I feel, so for every unit, they say we're over-objective. Like, you're also lumping those, you know, you may only count, let's say they go, they fly 55,

and they count 35 bucks per 100 doe. We're at objective, right? But then they fly south to 551, and some of those deer had migrated out of 55 into 551, and now you've got 49 bucks per 100 does. They are going to increase tags for both units because it's one DAU plan. I see. Yeah. So that's kind of how that works. But it feels like to me that implementing doe tags is kind of making you chase your tail. If you're trying to take down the buck-to-dough ratio, if you're over-objective, when you're trying to take that down, if you're taking up does, you're kind of chasing your own tail. You're not really getting anything accomplished, you know. If you're trying to get down to 35 bucks per 100 does, don't shoot does. Is there rationale? Are they, I mean, I know a couple summers ago you guys had a really rough, dry summer.

Are they blaming it on winter habitat, sagebrush, range conditions, and that, hey, we don't want to build too many deer? What are they blaming? What are they pinning that on? They're, honestly, I never got an answer out of them. What they were, what the purpose of the doe tags were, they were saying they're going to be a very small number of doe tags. So that was kind of like their reasoning was like, hey, you know, it may only be 20 doe tags, but you know how that works. Why even have a hunt? Exactly. I mean, I don't know how many hundred or thousand of deer are on each of these units, but why even have 20 doe? I don't get it. I mean, you know what I mean? 20 doe tags does not one thing to a population that size. No. And we're trying, if we're trying to increase the overall population. Don't touch your does. Don't touch the mamas. Yes, exactly. They're the baby makers.

And that's something we've really, really struggled with is it's like in the same, I mean, the cows, the same way they did, they did late season, you know, for cows up until January, probably 10 years ago. So, you know, it's the same thing. It's like you're killing the baby machines and now our elk curds are suffering because of it. So are we going to go down the same path that we are with, you know, with deer? So are they, is it you personally that feels passionate about it or do you feel like this is your sportsman's group's feelings? Are you guys having meetings? Are you, I mean, is this something, I mean, is this a movement? Are you guys going to storm the house down there in Gunnison and really, you know, obviously we got a May 6th, May 7th commission meeting. That's where they're going to set the final tag quotas.

I mean, so how are you guys going to combat maybe some of your feelings on this or what's your plan? We're definitely going to try and get some attendance down there, but it looks like, I mean, with this whole thing going on, it looks like it might be a virtual meeting, which at first I was thinking, well, that could be an advantage because now more of us can show up. But now I'm thinking it's a disadvantage because I don't know if we'll be able to speak, you know? So I think, I think our only avenues are going to be emails. Yeah. Cause I really don't think, I mean, if there, how many thousand people or a hundred people are going to be watching that. Um, and it's, I don't know how that's going to work. You know, if they, if they opened up for questions, how do you, all these people are trying to ask questions about units across the state at one time, you know?

So I think that's going to kind of be, I think that's going to kind of be difficult. So emails, emails are going to be a huge one. Um, I'd say for the most part, everybody on, um, the wildlife association is on the same page. Some people go a little bit of a different direction than others. So that kind of makes it hard. You know, you got to get everybody with one, one goal in mind. Um, and I think, I think for me, I can't speak for everybody, but for me, it's revising, um, the, it's like an expedited revising of the HMP plan. Cause it's not up to revision for another two years. And with our new late season structure, I think it is very important that we revise it now. You know, that we have never seen seasons like this before. I mean, you think about it, second season, second season is now going to be where third season was. Third season is going to be with four seasons. What is it?

Four seasons are going to go all the way into Thanksgiving. You guys have been here. It is a Denison basin. It is a vast time. Yeah. Are you guys, uh, so yeah, it is, seems, seems weird where they're not going to, it's not up for revision for another couple of years. Yet the season dates directly affect, uh, the hunting deer, the takes, everything. More so here than anywhere, you know, us and us and 44. We're in these high elevation basins. I mean, we're, we're the ones that are going to feel the effects rather than Cortez, um, you know, down in the San Luis Valley. I mean, those desert, those desert climates aren't going to feel the effects as much as we are here. Deer are spread out a little bit more in other units. They're, like I said, when it snows, there's only one place. They come to 8,000 or 8,200 feet or 85 and they cannot go any lower. And it's open. They're vulnerable.

There's, there's escapement in other parts of the state, even with, even with some, you know, the season date adjustments. But man, Gunnison is beautiful in many respects. Beautiful deer winter range, but when they show up. And what an amazing hunt. Fun, enjoyable, visible, the deer visible. I mean, there's a lot of reasons people like to hunt Gunnison. Definitely. And that's, that's why we want to keep it that way too. You know, it's like our, our biologist has told me in the past that he said, he said that trophy hunting is, is dying. And I think he, he means, you know, being selective in your harvest is dying. And I completely disagree with that. I mean, he, he's saying that people don't care about trophies anymore. Yep. So he said people want opportunity more so than they want quality.

And I said, if I want to kill 160 and four point buck, I can give you 20 units in the state right now that I can go do that. But we don't, but we don't want these units to be those units. Yeah. We could probably give you 50. I don't know. I would rather wait five to 10 years to draw a buck tag and have a great hunt than go shoot. I don't need, I don't need another set of animals. I don't, I don't want to go shoot a little buck. I mean, that's just the way it is. And he goes, well, people, they don't want to travel. And I said, that is horse. I mean, I've, I've traveled halfway across the state and slept in the back of my truck to do an over-the-counter antelope hunt. I mean, it's like, if you, if it's a priority in your life, you will make it happen. Well, it feels like more than maybe any other species.

And I'm not talking sheep, moose, or goat, those once a lifetime tags that come out around very infrequently. But with regard to elk and deer, deer, because of the stat, every state's going through the same numbers crunch. I mean, Utah's cutting 10,000 general season tags this year off of our general to the lowest numbers they've maybe ever been, Carter. You know, and so everywhere, mule deer, more and more people, we're seeing the opposite, I guess. More and more people are going to go willing to do whatever it takes to hunt a big deer somewhere versus, you know, it's what you want, what you can't have. It's true. But, but so, but from the game and fish perspective, they do hear from the guys that got to hunt every single year. And we had that.

We've gone through some, Bronson, we've gone through a lot of growing pains of trying to please the general season hunter, where we used to buy tags over the counter, to maintaining, okay, now they're on a draw. But we still allow these families to go hunting because they do like to hunt every year. But you can't have the best of both worlds. There's, there is a balance. And I think there's some of those Gunnison units. I mean, there's some units within the state of Colorado that are just sacrificial places. Let's call them that. Yes. They're, they're units that'll never be managed for the giant bugs. I don't know, 40, you know, 42, 421. I don't know. 35, 36. You look at units like that, that would be as better than 44. They crank out way more deer. Yeah, 35, 36 would be the best unit in the state. Genetics wise and whatnot, but. Tag numbers wise. They're not capable of, yeah, anyway.

Well, and we're getting a little bit off tangent, but I would say like your point is. Make this be special. Other places, let, let, let other places be, you know, managed under a different strategy. Let's take Gunnison. That's a special place that people are super passionate about. So, you know, the other thing I think you've got going on there, you had a, you know, somewhat of a tough winter, 2016, 2017. I heard it affected different units within the Gunnison Basin differently, such as, you know, 551 versus 66, 67. And it feels weird. We see these huge tag reductions. You know, basically everything was cut in half the following season. And then now you're back to issuing doe tags, like you're saying. You got this little yo-yo effect going on. And I don't know, just seems, seems odd to us a little bit how, you know, they're feeding

deer, trying to keep every single one of them alive one year. And then we're not talking sports and we're talking game and fish and major feeding programs to get them through a winter to issue in doe tags so quick, you know, within just a several years, a few years. Yeah. And see, like what you were talking about, like with Gunnison, Gunnison being special, if they started, if they made the Henry mountains or the ponds, a general unit, I mean, how, how upset would that be if they were managing that for opportunity rather than quality? And that's kind of how it feels. We have the genetics and habitat to make this the best deer hunting in the Western United States. And to me, that's worth it to wait longer to get a tag to hunt because that's the kind of hunt I want. You know, I don't put in, when I put in for Utah, I don't put in for general tags.

I put in for the good tags because in that off chance that I do get one, that's what I want to do. I don't, I don't want to go down there and just, you know, not see any deer and whatnot. So yeah, that's, that's kind of, the Gunnison Basin is special and we should manage it that way. And what you're talking about with the tag allocation, so I got it written down. So just for a third and fourth season in 2018, which is used 55 as an example. Third and fourth season, they gave out 31 tags, five fourths. And that would make, what would that make? 26. 26. Yeah. 26 third season tags. Then in 2019, this last year, we went to 110. So from 31 to 110, just for third and fourth season. And I'm not even talking about the second season hunts. That's, that's just that. So that's kind of the increase that we took last year.

And rumor on the street is that, that we're going to, we're looking at an increase again. And the reason is, is because it was, it was really tough conditions. You know, you guys, you guys hunted those later seasons in November. It was dry. It was tough. So we got low harvest and then we got a mild winter. Our snow was gone, you know, by mid-March. So we, those two factors have led them to believe that we need to increase our tags again because we're over objective. Yeah. With their buck to doe ratios. Yeah. With their buck to doe ratios. Comes in with the doe tags on top of increased buck tags. Yada, yada. Yeah. And I mean, the second season, like the second season becoming the third season, second season has kind of been a non-factor in the past just because it's pretty tough time of year. You know, people kill some good bucks, but it's a pretty tough time of year.

But now that they're later, that's just, that's really going to, that's really going to hurt us. Because I, I'm under the impression that our, our top end get taken out either early or really late. You know, those, those middle ones, you, you get some good bucks out of there, but I'd say archery, muzzleloader and fourth season, that's when your top end is getting taken out. So now we're, now we've got third and fourth and then second as a pre-ret hunt and still the archery and the muzzleloader on side. I mean, I, I'm really worried with where this is going. Well, and, and yeah, it's rightfully so. We know how vulnerable muzzleloader can get as November progresses. And, and, you know, when you start this year, the dates are really late, you know, second season goes till November 1st, third goes till the 13th, fourth to the 22nd. Next year, it's all five or six days later than that.

And to me, we've gotten a lot of questions, obviously that from a muzzleloader hunters, you know, set of glasses we're wearing, how a matter eyes light up. But then when you start thinking, okay, they kick late this year, even later next year, and then they just creep a day earlier. So they're late for like five straight years, all of them. How much can these deer handle without governing yourself? Just because on paper, oh, yeah, buck to doe ratio is high. Well, if you just remain the same, the dates might increase the harvest to a point that you maybe need to cut back. Not, not even talking about increasing tags. You might just have the same number tags. And you're saying, and your point is, is some of these deer are being double counted anyway by coming out of 55 into 551. And so numbers might be slightly skewed anyway.

And overall populations, how, you have the numbers there on the overall populations. Are they computer modeled? I mean, obviously they did recent harvest, or excuse me, recent aerial surveys. Yes. Updated the computer models, but how are they looking? So they show, they show the post-hunt estimate, you know, so that's kind of what I'm talking about. We will never understand the model. I mean, I've tried to understand the model. I don't get it. You know, you count, you count 1,500 deer, and then you, you put it into your computer, and it comes out that there's 6,000 deer in the unit. And so that's kind of the problem is these, these estimates, that that's all they are, is their, their estimates. So they, they say right now we have more deer and more mature bucks than we've ever had. And you guys, have you, were you guys here in 04 or 05, 06? They're saying they're higher than those days?

Yes. I thought, I remember some of those buck to do ratios were like 60 per hundred back in there in 54. Yes. 55. And I'm not saying that's where we want to be because they're, you do need more opportunity there. And then I think, you know, correct me if I'm wrong. Those were good days. Those were good days. Yeah. Correct me if I'm wrong. Are they just like too concerned? Like, Hey, we wasted too much, you know, back then we're not going to ever let that happen again. Is that their mentality? And to utilize the resource before the winner wipes them out? I mean, is it kind of like. They say we can't stockpile bucks. That's what they say. We can't stockpile bucks, but I'm under the impression that you can't, you can't manage for what ifs, you know, what if we, they, they don't want there to be like a, you know, a mass die off.

Like we had no seven or eight, but once every 10 years, we are going to get one of those winners. You know, that that's just the way it is that we it's, I mean, it's proven 88, 97, you know, 2007. It just, it happens all the time. So we, I don't think that we can manage for what if we have to manage what we have and continue to do that. And then when those anomalies happen, then we have to adjust. So we can't, and just as an example, so we got, we, I've got the 2004 post-hunt population estimates. Um, and this is from the CPW website from their Colorado Westlope Mule Deer strategy. And D21, which is 54, they counted their, or their post-hunt estimate was 9,200. Um, and then, and 2018, we were at, uh, 5570. So that was after last year, we have, uh, 5,500 deer as opposed to 9,200. So I, I, I mean, for them to tell us that, you know, oh, we've got, we've got more deer

and more mature bucks than we ever have. You, you tell these people that spend days and months out there. I mean, these guys, these guys are not your, your own, it's just, you know, going behind. These guys live for the mule deer. So you're, you can't pull the wool over our eyes and tell us, you know, that, that there's especially when you can go up on their website and look. Well, it's on paper. Well, and, and it's born out with the hunters. I mean, when, and, and the locals like you there, you're not, we know it's not 2004 and five. That's, that's a fact. I mean, yeah. And you, you guys, you guys have been here enough to realize that. I mean, and that, that guy that you had on your magazine, he's killed that good buck and that's a great buck, but that's probably the biggest deer that I, that I saw come out of there.

So I, I guided for, um, CBR and AZFR this last year, um, for third and fourth season. And we did not, we did not find a buck over 180. I mean, you've got, you've got five, six guys that have lived here their entire life, know the area, like the back of their hand. And we're not, we're not seeing the deer. And I didn't have a story like, oh yeah, you know, we saw a 195 buck that got away from my hunter. We just, we didn't even have one of those stories. It was, and I understand the conditions were rough. Um, but like you said, when the, the clock matters more so than, than the conditions, I think for, for those later seasons. And so like when I'm down the fourth, first three days were pretty slow. Then on that fourth day, it, it flipped, you know, and they started coming down and I started seeing probably twice as many bucks as I had the days before.

So, so when you push these seasons back, that's just gonna, that's gonna get vulnerable. Super vulnerable. I mean, so vulnerable. What did you see, um, December, January 1st? What did it look like when, all right, you know, because we know across the Gunnison Basin and the rest of Colorado, it was pretty brutal conditions, warm, dry, um, unseasonably, you know, terrible. Um, yeah. What did you see when winter finally hit? And again, it wasn't a big, big winter even anywhere over there, real well, I shouldn't say in your part of the Colorado. What did the, what did the winter range look like when you actually saw it maybe at its best, you know, January, December, January? So the, it actually, usually we get our really, we get heavy snows in December and then our really bitter cold, you know, negative 30 in January, February.

And this year it hit really early, um, which was pretty concerning. And in December we're hitting negative 20, negative 30. Um, but then by January, February, we, we, we had snow, we had, you know, probably what I would consider average snowfall. Um, and right now, or I guess in, in March, um, wildlife look good. They did. They looked, they looked really healthy. Um, cause I, I mean, it's, it's been kind of weird. I can't even remember the last time we had an average winter, you know, it feels like it was so long ago cause we had heavy winter, drought, heavy winter. And then this year has been, been average. So it's, it's kind of hard, um, to say those, those deer, you know, they'll start coming down later, but it's, it's funny cause most of those, most of those bucks will stay a little bit higher until they shed.

And then all of a sudden, all these groups of does that you've been watching for the last month, you start seeing these big old slick head, white faces popping up in them. So I can personally say, I didn't see from, I, I killed a, um, one 93 buck with my bow this year. And that was the biggest deer that I saw from archery all the way through January. You killed the breeder buck of the basin. I know exactly. Yeah. I was like, man, should I feel bad about that? Yeah, you should. Yes. Yes, you should. Nothing left. He might be two old tree this year. Yeah. No. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I'd say that, uh, I I'd say the wintering ground looks great. Um, wildlife health looks great. I just, I'm a little more concerned, um, about the quality. And I think this year, I think if, if, if listeners have put in for Gunnison this year, I think this is a good time to do it.

Um, because this is not sustainable for us to push the season back and increase tags. This is not a sustainable. Quality is going to come down. Even though you feel like quality wasn't as good as near as good as it could be, should be what you saw. Everything else is quality will come down. Yes, definitely. I mean, that's it. It'll be, it'll be a bloodbath here in those, in those late seasons. And so I'd say within, within two to three years, if this continues, we are, we are really, really going to have to change some stuff around. So that's kind of. I think that's, I think that's your point about coming on the podcast. A, you can possibly curb that May 6th and 7th. We're going to give a web address to go to, to be able to write the commissioners and your point of all this. And I just kind of want to maybe cut to the chase of it, of all of this, you're just saying, here's the deal.

We're way under objective populations wise. Your own data says it. Why not have a place within Colorado that's special? Why do, you know, we're talking about 50 extra tags or a hundred extra tags per unit, depending, you know, if you add up all the seasons or whatever. Revenue wise, it's not going to hurt Colorado parks and wildlife. It's not, we're not talking thousands of tags like you're given in other areas. And so let's, you know, let's, let's keep the tag numbers low. Let's have something special. We can all enjoy what comes out on the winter range. The, the, some of the hunts, the guy, lucky guys that draw have something to look forward to. Um, for all intents and purposes, parts of the Gunnison 66, 67 Bronson. I mean, from everything we saw produced as well or better than anywhere else in the state, even though it's not great. Yeah.

Even though people said it wasn't as good as it can be, should be. And it's not, that's true. But still, where else has maybe the buck to doe ratio that's there right now? The problem is. Exactly. Yeah. And they say, they say, they say, they tell us that we don't like the reputation that the Gunnison basin has gotten. And why? Our point is why? Why not? Why is that a bad thing? Why is that a bad thing? Exactly. We, we have the recesses. So let's do it. And I, I, I told him, I said, it doesn't matter if we take our buck to doe ratio down to 15 bucks per hundred does, we will always have that reputation. And there will always be a big one. I mean, regardless of what happens, there will always be a big one. So it's like, we, if we're trying to manage this for opportunity, we will never outrun our reputation.

People will always still come here to hunt deer because, you know, back when they hunted elk here in 06, they saw the biggest buck they've ever seen in their life. They've been putting in for 15 years and they're finally ready to drive attack. They are going to still come here to hunt that unit, you know? And I think they're actually care. I think I told you, they get sick of listening to us, you know, the same 10 guys. Telling them the same things over and over. But I actually think that, that, you know, in the essence, all you guys listening, you, you guys are going to have more influence than we do because they hear the same thing from us all the time. So if you email the commission and tell them, I wrote down questions that I want you to tell the commission, what, what attracts you to the Gunnison Basin? Why do you want to come here? Why do you want to hunt here?

When you come here, what type of hunt do you want? Do you want the quality or the opportunity hunt? And then tell them, yeah, that we need to really be careful about these late season structures and try and expedite the process of revising the herd management plan to fit the season structure they are now. Yeah, we agree a hundred percent. And I think that, I think you make some great points on there is, is why do you come, why do you have 20 something points that you're willing to come here? Yeah. Are you spending 20 points to come through my shop? No, I think you're coming, coming down here to enjoy what we have. And it's a wonderful resource to hunt for, for one of those deer that's in your shop. That's what they're waiting that far for. And it also goes back to these season dates.

I just can't overemphasize that enough. The vulnerability. If you get an earlier snow year, it is going to be rough. And, and why not hedge your bets a little bit that that could happen? That's what I'm saying. And let's say, worst case scenario, you waste some of the resource on a tough winner that you can't control. Let's say mother nature takes them. But, but in the meantime, you have four or five years in between those hard winters. Or 10. Or 10. Or 10. You're going to sacrifice the quality of eight or nine years that you don't have winner for the one winner that you do. That you get to generate another little bit of revenue, all intents and purposes, we're talking a drop in the bucket. They're giving literally thousands of tags, 1835s. Thousands in other places, yeah. Unbelievable. So a few, a few hundred less tags collectively in the basin. It isn't good.

They're not going to notice it. The bottom line. But we're going to see, that's the difference of 20, 200 inches on the winner range. You know what I mean? Yes. Something really special. Where guys, guys say, this is, this was worth my 20 plus points. Of, of now buying an $82, you know, small game license just, just to apply. A prerequisite to apply. I'm funding your state and I want to continue to gain points. Because you have a place like Gunnison. You have a place like Eagle and 44 or, or wherever. Some of these fourth seasons that are late, you know. So anyway, so basically you're just, you're wanting to say, hey, if you have an opinion, voice it. Yes. And, and by, and to voice it, you can go find the commissioners. A list of the commissioners on, uh, cpw.state.co.us. And then on there's about us. And then the commission. And there's a list of the commissioners.

And I, and it's too hard. They all have aggressive email addresses. It's too hard to list them on the podcast, but you can go find them on there. I got one, um, so I got one email address that actually goes to like a mass inbox for all the commissioners. Um, and it's, it's DNR, um, underscore cpw commission at state.co.us. So that'll go, that'll go to all the commissioners. So it's, it's DNR, underscore cpw commission at state.co.us. Yep. And make sure you, make sure you spell commission, right? C-O-M-M-I-S-S-I-O-N. Yes. Two N's, two S's. And spell state, S-T-A-T-E, not abbreviated S-T, right? That's state.co.us. So anyway, make sure that, uh, delivers, doesn't come back undeliverable, uh, voice your concerns. And then, then you can hit the individual commissioners if you'd like as well. Cpw.state.co.us. We know when there's a commission list.

I guess the population or the permit numbers haven't been formally posted yet, but they will in this unique time, I'm sure they'll give a deadline when that gets posted, the deadline of April, whatever that your comments have to be received. Or do you know that date, uh, already right now? I do not off the top of my head, but I know this is, this is the time to do it. Do it, do it now. Because we usually have, um, because we're so annoying and, and vocal, the Gunnison Basin hunters, most of the time we get the tag allocation numbers, you know, before, um, the app deadline, just because we, we want to see, we want to, we want to give our input. So I'd say if you're listening to this, get on right now, um, and email them and just tell them, tell them what, don't, don't go into the whole thing of what you think they should do. Just tell them what you would like to see when you get there.

Cause I think, I mean, when you guys are paying whatever it is, 600 bucks for a non-resident deer tag, you know, that, that probably means more to them than my $35 that I'm giving them to hunt deer, you know? So I think they, it's a huge influx, um, to the local economy to have the out of state hunters, you know, staying in hotels, eating at restaurants and stuff. So, I mean, it's a, I, I feel like the, the non-residents have a lot more pull than we do just because we sound like a broken record to them all the time. So just, just email them and tell them, you know, you think that we should dip our toes into this, this whole tag thing with the late season structure. Cause since, since we've never done this before, we have no idea. I mean, we, we can guess and say, yeah, it's going to be a bloodbath, but we have no idea

how bad it's actually going to be until we get this first season out of the way. What I, what I like about you and what coming on today is you own a business. You're going to, you're going to profit by more people drawing tags and coming through town and buying stuff from you. Right. Yep. You guys sell all kinds of sporting goods, guns, ammunition, chewing the fat, and, and you're willing to give that up. You're willing to give up, of course, not your whole business, but you're willing to give up some gain, you know, for the betterment of just having some big deer on the winter range, just having some big deer. So it's obviously proves that you guys are passionate, not just, you know, selfish. So to speak. And all the outfitters that are on the Gunnison Wildlife Association, they're the same way. I mean, we, we get business from hunters, but that is their business.

You know, they, that is, that is it. And they are up there all the time trying to get them to, to cut tags just because they care about the wildlife. They would rather take a hit for a couple of years and get back on track than not, you know, and that's that. I think that they, they should definitely take that into consideration. The outfitters aren't like, Oh, you know, we should go back to over the counter for everything so I can get more money. They're like, no, we need to cut out tags. We need to cut deer tags and we need to make this a better hunt. I would personally like to see them cut tags from where they were even in 2019, especially with the date change. I don't know that you're going to get that. I think just at least don't increase them. The bare minimum, don't increase them. Leave them the same. Yeah. And don't, don't kill our mamas.

You've already, maybe, you know, if you've already got the hunt code, give five tags versus 20, whatever. But, uh, you know, you got to do to, uh, you know, adjust that with the tag quotas, but yeah. Cause last year we're 10 and 54, uh, 10, four season tags at 54, 20 and 55, 20 and five, 51, 20 and 66 and 20 and 67. And yeah, the year before that we're five, five, 10, 15, 15. So we're, I would say just keep them, keep them the same at the very least. Keep them the same. I would love to see them cut tags, but I don't see that coming down the pipe. Just leave them the same, dip our toes and see what happens. And then adjust if we need to next year, make that adjustment. Did you make mention of the, obviously 66, 67 being in a different DAU, the manage, it seems like, and I just want you to maybe answer to this is it feels like they, to, to us not

live in there feels like it's been tightly met tighter managed, maybe just for a little better trophy. I don't know if that's the case. Just feels like it feels like 66, 67, you know, versus 54, 55, 51. I would agree. And I think it's just because it's a lot, it's a lot more diverse just as far as the terrain goes. I mean, you, you look at, you look at 55 and 54 and you've got your natural progression from high country down to winter and ground in 66 and 67. They've got a lot of, you know, a lot of really good low country that'll hold deer. Year round. Even down low. Year round. Yep. So that's, that's kind of, I think, difference. They do, they manage it way better for elk because it is, you know, draw only. It's, it's totally limited entry for 66 and 67 elk, but then 54, 55 and 551 are over the counter for second and third season.

So we have a, we have a rough winter and then the year that I guess three years ago, there's 14 inches of snow on the ground during first season when I'm guiding elk counts. And I'm like, this is going to be bad. And by third season, everybody and their mom that had an over the counter tag was just whacking elk in the sagebrush. I mean, it was, it was an absolute slaughter. So they cut the elk tags, but then we still leave the over the counter units with no caps on them whatsoever. So you're going to cut archery, muzzleloader and first season and fourth season, but then you're just going to leave those wide open. How, how are you supposed to fix that problem? If you are, you're not even capping how many people are coming here to hunt? Well, we appreciate you coming on. We, uh, again, want to reiterate, anybody wants to make suggestions, tell them why you spend the money to apply.

Um, either or not telling you what to say. We know how we feel. Go to DNR underscore CPW commission. C-O-M-M-I-S-S-I-O-N at state.co.us. Um, you can go on there, make your voice heard. A lot of guys hit us up. Yeah. Honestly, from a non-resident perspective, it feels like Bronson chime in. I mean, it feels like we never are really heard or we can't make a difference. And this is when we're commenting out of state, but this might be one of those instances where, where we, where the Gunnison name, the Gunnison reputation and all that is probably most known and respected and sought after maybe by the people from the outside. You locals obviously love it and all that, but like you said, they're maybe sick of hearing from you. Maybe they need to hear from the outsiders that, that have that on their bucket list of how I want to hunt Gunnison someday late.

I've, I've, I've done it once in the mid to late two thousands and I'm waiting to go back and I've been waiting a long time. Don't, don't let my weight be worthless by the time I come back. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think it's very, I think it's very important that we're all kind of out of state and in state are, are really on the same page to try to get this, this accomplished. Cause it's, we, I'm just scared of what's going to happen here, you know, and it's, I know it's happening statewide in a lot of places. But this, I actually see the direct effects, you know, I can, I can look at numbers of what's happening in other places in the state, but I see it here with my own two eyes. Well, we appreciate you coming on again and anybody that's locked into their house from the Corona, get on the computer, say what you have to say, let your voice be heard.

We'd encourage you to do that. We'd also, you know, we're fine. Just want to, if there's a, happens to be a biologist out of Gunnison, especially that wants to come on and visit with us. We're happy to have you on as well. We'll present both sides or, or maybe, maybe they agree with us. I don't know. We'll just, uh, anyway, we're happy to have anybody on that, uh, you know, is, is involved with things like this, situations like this or management plans, practices, or controversial topics. We're happy to have you on and, and visit about it and, uh, let the world hear what's going on out there. So anyway, again, we sure, we sure appreciate you. Thanks. Yeah. I really appreciate you guys having me on. I hope we can get something accomplished from this. Yeah. From guys that have spent some time in Gunnison, uh, you know, we're huge fans of what you got

going on and the passion you have down there. What an, what an amazing place. Everybody should be able to hunt or try to hunt Gunnison once in their life. It's pretty awesome. Yeah. I agree. Thanks. Thanks, Connor. Take care. And, uh, we'll be in touch and good luck. Sounds good guys. You too. Let me know. All right, buddy. Thanks. All right. Hey, Hey, we'll be easy on them 193 inches. Cause they're our next 200. Okay. All right. Sounds good. I'll leave him. I'll leave him rest for next year. All right. All right. Okay. Sounds good. All right. Take care guys. Hey everybody. Just want to give a shout out to one of our, uh, longtime sponsors, Red Rock Precision Rifles. If you're, uh, going to be looking for a long range, uh, Western hunting rifle, give Kurt at Red Rock Precision a call. 801-425-6574 or redrockprecision.com.

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