Hunting with Brendan Burns of KUIU. In this episode we talk with Brendan Burns of KUIU. Brendan gives us updates on the KUIU product line as well as the Conservation Direct projects that have been happening across the west. We also talk a lot about Montana and some of the changes that will be affecting the state due to regulation and draw system changes.

Disclaimer: this text was produced through an automated transcription service and likely contains errors. Please listen to the original audio for exact content.

00:00:02:02 –> 00:01:21:22
It is a mental battle. If you don’t say it out loud. If you don’t set that goal, you’ll you’ll, it’s, you’re not gonna accidentally get one, that’s for sure. We never get on here and tout or write about in the magazine the tags that I didn’t draw anything to do with Western Big Games. Welcome to the Epic Outdoors Podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody. Jason Carter. Adam Bronson coming at you from Southern Utah. We got a great podcast scheduled today, Bronson, we’re gonna be talking to Brendan Burns, who’s been with QU from Inception, employee number one, I think after Jason, right? Yeah, he’s, this is a number one guy. Number one employee. Yeah. He’s been responsible for the growth, a large part in respon, you know, responsibility for the growth and the success of KU over the course of time and was Jason’s right hand man for many years. And anyways, a wealth of knowledges. Awesome. Hunters done a lot of great things in the hunting world and conservation and whatnot, but let’s get him on the podcast. Yeah, lot, plenty to talk about. What’s up man? What’s going on? Well, just a nice cold spring day in Montana. Is it? Well, oh man, yeah, we got, we got pounded last or this last few days. Did you really? Plenty of snow. Oh yeah. Eh, there’s places that got a lot of snow. Yeah. Yeah.

00:01:22:01 –> 00:02:27:06
We could use more of that down here, but, but I’ve heard you guys in general have been a little bit dry this winter, haven’t you? Oof. Not a little bit dry. Like really dry. Yeah, that’s what I mean. Yeah. Really dry. I know the eastern part of Montana’s really been hurting. Really hurting, so Yeah. A lot of the cattle guys are, are liquidating cows and worried about hay. Yeah, it’s, it’s really dry. So hopefully we get, we need a lot of moisture so we could use more here too. So, question. Yeah. Well, hey, appreciate you taking a, a, I don’t know, hour or so with us today to just talk, talk about QU and talk about hunting and maybe some Montana stuff. We’ll dive into some of the, maybe the moose, sheep, goat stuff since that hap that application period’s open the Elk’s over with. But man, they made a bunch of changes there this year. But maybe before we get into that, let’s, let’s just talk a little bit about, I don’t know if there is something new. We always like to let you guys talk a little bit about some of the stuff you’ve been working on, whether it be product wise or, you know, some of the conservation, you know, stuff that you’ve been actively involved in as well. But maybe let’s start on the QU front, the gear wise.

00:02:28:00 –> 00:03:39:06
You know, we’ve, you’ve had a lot, a new release that feels like in the last six months or so, you know. Yeah. Things like that. And as probably supply chain things have been ironing out, things like that. Getting caught up hopefully. So I, I’ve noticed it. I get emails regularly from y’all. So tell us what’s new on that front, if you can, anything. Well, it seems like every time you call, we’re on the verge of release. It’s something I can’t talk about, which is standard for today. We have some pretty big launch coming in the next couple weeks, which I’ve been sworn to secrecy on, but it’s gonna be big. And then, yeah, we, we came out obviously with the, with the burner and the hela stuff last year and, and some, you know, just we’re, we’re really just focused on filling in the gaps that are missing in the line, whether it’s, you know, temperature, exertion level stuff. Obviously we got a lot more training stuff and, you know, we obviously are always working on more, more and more lifestyle stuff and, and, and just, you know, brand apparel in general. But on the technical front, like we, we really lay down a directive to like, basically any, any temperature, exertion level, you know, weather condition. Like we want to fill it all in a gap so that that’s where the focus is. Gap. Yeah.

00:03:39:06 –> 00:04:45:06
We don’t wanna have a gap like you, you one stop shop, you can buy anything you need to wear. And that’s, that’s definitely the, the, the goal and, and, and where we’re going with everything on all sides. So it’s been, yeah, it’s good. We got a really big launch coming up in the next, I think it’s in two weeks. That’s great. Great. No, we can’t like, we can’t like sit here and just talk about it. I know you’re not gonna talk about it, but it’s like, it’s like, could you, what pieces we’re missing, Brenda? Yeah. Where’s the gap? What, what’s the gap? Or is this just to re Well, it’s, this is a, this is, this is a big gap that we’ve had for a long time. That’s, that’s gonna be filled in, so it’ll be Okay. Good. It’s, it’s good. So, well and you guys have been very good at too over time because you know, Jason and I here have been with you and Jason Harrison from the beginning. I mean, I still have some of that. You’re first generation. Absolutely. I’m still gobbing. It’s good stuff. My major brown first guide, you know, guide jacket. I still have it. I, I mean there’s some stuff it doesn’t wear out, you know, it really doesn’t that first of that stuff. Yeah. The spin drift. I wore it. The other, the brown ones, remember the little spin drifty? The Yep. Oh yeah. First gen.

00:04:45:10 –> 00:05:52:15
I mean, I have, this doesn’t wear out. I mean, but anyway, you’ve, you’ve, you’ve done an incredible job at filling in, I mean, you look at the website now and it’s hard to make a decision sometimes, but you’ve, you’ve got a lot of synthetic as well as, you know, I guess the, you know, Marino, which is where it all started back in the day, you know. Yeah. We, we introduced, we, we introduced waterproof down to the, to the industry. Yep. And, and which has replaced a bunch of synthetics and then the synthetics come around to be, you know, the breathable, the, the high exertion insulation, which obviously the Dow doesn’t really Yeah, no, it’s, it’s a, it’s a progression all the time. There’s always, and again, you know, we’re driving new technology like some doesn’t work perfect. We, we want to expand that and Yeah, I think when we came down, that was my absolute first business meeting at Yeah, we just was you in, in in December of 10 and I think we had seven pieces in the line at that point. I don’t even know how many there are now, but it’s, I’m trying to, yeah, I mean you had, it was seven pieces. You had your pack, you had the first icon pack or carbon Yep. Frame pack, whatever that was called. You had the, you had the rain jacket, you had a a t pan, if I remember right. Yep.

00:05:52:22 –> 00:07:04:01
The spin drift and a a jacket, which is like a lightweight synthetic insulation Yep. Jacket. You had the guide jacket. Yep. What am I missing? Maybe? And then two layers of like a, I don’t wanna say like a two 10 or 2 45 Marino top and then a lighter 1 2 40 and 180 5 I believe it was. Yep. And that was probably it. I mean, that was it. Yeah. I think we had Gators, I think we had gators and a hat. Maybe it was not be, you did have like a, a beanie made out of the same kind of guy jacket slash attack pant material. Yeah. Anyway, but come a long way and 12 years. Yeah, 12 years. It’s not been that long, really. I mean, there’s a little bit of r and d before the launch of course. But as far as being an active, here we are, here we are. World, that was 12 years ago. No, the tip of the technology has definitely changed. That’s, that’s the exciting sp place is that every year there’s something new that comes out. It’s like, oh, hey, what do you think of this? And, you know, always driving. That’s, that’s been, it’s exciting and there’s some new stuff in the works that, you know, there’s always something. I mean, we obviously wanna reinvent ourselves all the time, and there’s something being made obsolete every year and, and gonna be replaced with something that performs better.

00:07:04:02 –> 00:08:16:00
And that’s, that’s why you don’t stay the same. And that’s why you’re always, you know, doing research and pushing, whether it’s fabric or design or you know, application, whatever, whatever it is. That’s, that’s, that’s how it goes with RD. And that’s, that’s, that’s the fun stuff, really. I mean, that is the fun stuff, so. Yep. Well, and using it in the field, and you guys have been very connected to your, obviously to your users over the years, whether that be, you know, just hunters guides, whoever provided a lot of feedback from, from day one and continue to I’m sure. So anyway. Yeah, no, it’s been good. Yeah. But what about on the, I guess if we can’t talk, might have to have you back in two weeks, but what about on the conservation front? You guys have obviously been involved in that heavily. Where have you been most recently? This winter? Yes. We just, I’ve seen ’em on social media and others. You’ve been on a few events there in the desert. Yeah. Desert Southwest Conservation Direct. Yeah. Yeah. The Conservation Direct Initiative, we started, well basically it started, kind of came up with it in 2017 and did our first project in 19. But like this year we, our big initiative was we, we took over the entire sheep transplant budget for the state of Arizona. And obviously it’s all company and customer funded.

00:08:16:02 –> 00:09:16:03
We brought two, two other partners in on this one to, to be involved. One was Wild Society, which is a coffee and beverage company, and the other one’s loophole, assuming you guys know Bruce and all those guys. That was pretty cool. And yeah, basically we took over all the funding for five transplants in the state of Arizona this year, which was super exciting. It’s never been done before. Nobody’s ever stepped up and said, Hey, we just wanna pay for all that. And you know, I, I think people will probably understand that not only does that obviously take a huge burden off of a state, you know, which, you know, those guys have a hard job. I mean, obviously Adam, you were a biologist, you understand that there’s a lot of talk and there’s a lot of good, good ideas and stuff. But ultimately funding to do those things, you know, comes, it is gotta come from somewhere. And, and real money is real money when it comes to, to doing big projects. And that’s, that’s what it takes. I mean, there’s a lot of great people that have great ideas, but ultimately it takes money behind it and, and hard work to get those things done. And so we, we stepped up and took over the entire state budget for Arizona and did, we did five translocations, most of ’em were supplemental.

00:09:17:03 –> 00:10:25:25
I I would call ’em new transplants, like filling in gaps in areas in Arizona that, that had little to no sheep population, but were connected to sheep populations. And yeah, we did five transplants. We moved 82 sheep, 30 big 30 rocky Mountain, big horns and, and the of the rest were deserts. And yeah, it was just a great project. A lot of customers came down and, you know, again, it was a first of its kind just to, to step up and do, do a project like that with a, the Arizona’s a super proactive state when it comes to transplants and translocations and collaring and, you know, it was just, it was awesome to work with them. Obviously they have, they, what they’ve done in that state and what they’ve grown their, their, their sheep population has been pretty impressive. We worked with Arizona Desert, Bighorn Sheep Society was the ones that kind of handled all the transactional part of it and, and a lot of the volunteers and stuff. So it was just, it was just a great project, just a win-win all around. And, you know, just like we’re trying to do is, you know, our, our customers expect us to do, you know, business is going good and our customers expect us to go do good things with, with, with, with the money that we, some of the profits that we’re making. Yeah. Yeah.

00:10:25:27 –> 00:11:24:13
I mean they, they expect that, I mean, I don’t think, it’s not one of those things where they go, you know, they wanna see where their money’s going and they wanna know that we actually care and, and these are fun pro like this is absolutely the fun, the, the most fun part of my job is, is, is going down and, you know, and, and working with sheep and being on the translocations and, you know, doing all the processing and stuff and turn, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s just a lot of fun and it’s, and it’s real stuff that you can see, you know, it’s not inconceivable that my son down the road could draw a permit in one of these areas, you know, that we’ve moved sheep into and, and supplemented ’em. And so that’s, it’s pretty exciting. And it’s just, it’s just, you know, there’s so few things in anything you do that are just a win all the way around and there’s no negative and it’s just, it’s just awesome work and awesome people. And these, these are, these are, these are some of those projects. ’cause it’s just, it just, it’s just great all the way around and, and we’re thrilled to do it. And looking forward, we got a couple other big ones coming up and yeah. That’s, is this something you’re, you’re kind of initiating Brendan as far as working with Arizona? Yep. Yep.

00:11:24:19 –> 00:12:21:18
And then the next projects, how do you choose your next projects? I mean, do they reach out to you or you reaching out to them? Yeah, it’s kind of, yeah, it’s kind of funny how it worked. This one, a guy named Darren Tucker is a game warden in Arizona, called me outta the blue and asked me if was interested in doing a project in Arizona. He had seen the, the project we did with Utah and, and North Dakota before. And I said, yeah, totally interested. We set up a meeting and got the head of fish and game and, and the head biologist, terrestrial biologist there, and we had a meeting and they were like, yeah, here’s the five transplants we’re gonna do. Are you interested in any of these? And I was like, I’m interested in all of them. Like in fact, I’ll, I’ll pay for the whole thing and if I say I like conservation direct, we will, and wasn’t worried about getting the funding, you know, it ended up being $164,000 and 40 collars. And so we yeah. Stepped up and did that. And that’s, that’s kind of how it came about. So like, I mean, we, we love doing the sheet projects that’s, those are extremely impactful and obviously kind of the most in our wheelhouse of what we do.

00:12:21:20 –> 00:13:20:10
And so yeah, they kind of come from anywhere working on a couple right now that we’re, you know, again, people just calling or me reaching out, you know, there’s, there’s, there’s quite a few of ’em out there. And again, it’s once, once you can kind of let people know like, hey, let’s not worry about the funding. Like, what would you do if you had enough money to do what you wanted to do? And, and we can help you out with that. Then, you know, like there’s some, some new ideas pop up. I mean the, the next project that we’re gonna do, which I, I can’t really talk about, but like, it was kind of a concept that I connected two agencies together and one of ’em needed sheep and one of ’em didn’t have sheep and they were both looking for ’em and one needed to get rid of some excess and one needed to, they needed to add some, and that’s kind of how it came about. So I was pretty stoked to be in the middle of that. And that’ll be, that’ll be coming up. We’re gonna move some sheep. So yeah, there’s just a lot of exciting things. I’m, you know, the goal is to do a transplant in every western state or, you know, we just did a guzzler project in, in Nevada, worked with Endow and, and the fraternity there, which was an awesome project.

00:13:20:13 –> 00:14:14:21
So we’re just, you know, anything that comes up we’re, we’re taking a look at and, and trying to be involved in trying to help out. And so it’s, it’s, it’s pretty exciting. And I just, you know, the conservation model is just changing a bit. Like people definitely wanna see where their money’s going and they wanna, there’s a lot of people that wanna be involved, like really involved, like hands-on involved, wanna come down and be a part of the project is Leopold and this other, you know, coffee company or whatever. I mean, are they a significant partner and gonna continue with that? And that was just a one time deal. I, I would definitely, I would definitely partner with ’em again and, and working with some other people. I’ve had lots of other companies Sure. There’s others call that are there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They had, and that’s exciting. And this is kind of one of those things like, you know, business is usually fairly competitive and all that, but with this stuff it’s not, it’s, I’m happy to work with just about anybody and, and, and it’s exciting to, you know, like again, you know, Bruce came down on the guys from, they from Wild Society, they came down on the first one and then Bruce came down on the last one.

00:14:14:21 –> 00:15:09:25
It was just, it is exciting to watch people put their hands on sheep for the first time and, and just actually see that work in action and, and you know, pull up in the trailer and let ’em go and see them go into the new habitat and then, you know, the collaring data and like seeing how they’re doing and what their mortalities are or how they’re, how, you know, what they’re doing in the range. You know, it’s a big experiment, but if we don’t do these type of experiments, they’re, they’re, they’re not gonna, you know, we’re not gonna have sheep. And obviously you guys are both have hunted areas I’m sure have been, have been transplanted. I mean it’s hard to, it’s hard not to, it’s hard to hunt a sheep anymore where we’re at, where they’ve all needed a little help here and there. Yeah. I mean, pretty much, you know, Utah, Arizona, Nevada, these were every western states, you know, had a big revamp of their sheep programs have had to outta necessity because of the doling numbers decades ago. So let alone guzzlers Yeah, guzzlers as well, especially like in Nevada where they’re just completely dependent upon them in many ranges. So Yeah. Awesome. They’re always rewarding projects to be.

00:15:09:25 –> 00:16:17:23
Well, I, I, so, and, and even on the, on the Nor, you know, we transplanted 55 sheep in 2019 to North, you know, 25 Ope Island, obviously in your guys’ backyard there and then 30 to to North Dakota and that, that sheep herd in North Dakota has doubled already. It’s got 59 animals in it right now. And I believe Ope Island has about 47 right now, is the last count I got. So I mean, that’s over a hundred from 55 and they haven’t lambed yet this year. I mean, so you, like, you can see how the numbers extrapolate. I mean, you know, it’s not that far down the road that Ope Island is gonna be back to a, you know, that’s gonna be the nursery herd for the state of, of Utah now. And, you know, we’re super excited to have, you know, provided the stock that, you know, really good genetics, obviously better than what was there and, and it help ’em, you know, rebound from that, that awful die off and all that. But you know, really you can look down the road, it’s not gonna be too long before they’re either, you know, they’ll be hunting Antelope Island and translocating sheep to, to create new herds in, in Utah, which is, you know, that’s, that’s the exciting part to see. Yeah. Well that’s awesome. Well, we’ve, they’re fun to be, they’re super rewarding.

00:16:17:23 –> 00:17:28:18
I’ve, you know, we’ve had Jason and I, and even our kids been out to these throughout Utah over the years, of course, you know, it’s been, you know, a lot of years since I’ve actually initiated one of these myself when I was a biologist, but there, there’s a lot that goes into them. I remember that. And there’s also the, this, this funding mechanism’s a little bit different too because it, it maybe has changed, but when I was a biologist in the statewide sheep coordinator, I had to go through certain bid processes to, you know, from capture to a whole lot of other stuff. To even build a hor or a sheep hauling horse trailer type trailer. You had to go through certain bid processes because of you’re dealing with public funds, you’re dealing with money that’s taxpayer money, sports and money. And that’s under, those are all built in for safeguards. So you spend it wisely and it’s competitive and all that. It also added tremendous amount of time to some of those processes and, you know, with sometimes of a headache. So sometimes you’re dealing with pri we’ll call it private funds, whether it be q you or some of your Q partners or you know, customers. Yeah. You can just write checks sometimes doing things move, move the ball rolling a little bit quicker in certain instances. Yeah.

00:17:28:18 –> 00:18:30:22
That’s, that’s what’s exciting and, and, and really kind of the foundation of what conservation direct is, is that it’s totally transparent. We pick whatever the nearest 5 0 1 C3 is, and in the Arizona case that we just did, obviously the 164,000 went through A-D-B-S-S and, and again, it’s, it’s all transparent. So there’s no monkey business going on. There’s like, we don’t even have a bank account for that stuff. It just all goes through whatever the 5 0 1 C3 is and it goes straight to the state and yeah. You know, it, it’s getting cl there’s some places where a lot of biologists have complained that the grant writing process and all that stuff is clunky and doesn’t allow ’em to be reactive. And so we just wanna step in and in in the ones that we can and, and be able to, you know, again, they’ve got a lot more things get it done. Yeah. They got a lot more things to worry about. Like, let’s, let’s do this good work and, and, and, and, and free up, free up some money for ’em. And, and like in Arizona, like, you know, they, they freed up $164,000 that was earmarked for sheep. Well that, you know, there’s, I think he told me there’s 3000 species in Arizona, you know, like stuff nobody cares about, honestly. Like a bunch of little things and quails and weird stuff.

00:18:30:22 –> 00:19:32:12
And like that frees up that money to go into other really good work that they’re doing that isn’t, you know, maybe doesn’t have the support or, you know, it still needs to be done. And, you know, a lot of times these translocations or the guzzlers, you know, it affects a lot of different animals like mule deer and Sure. You know, sheep and elk and everything, you know, so it’s, it’s just, it’s just great work. We’re glad to do it and it’s, it’s been very, very rewarding for sure. Cool. Pretty awesome. Well what about, speaking of sheep, you had a kind of a big winner here for your, she personally, didn’t you? Yeah. Tell us about that. Yeah, as you know, like finish, you both have finished your grand slam. I, I finished my archery grand slam on Carman Island in, in February and it was, yeah, just as you know, pretty awesome. One of those deals. Long, long journey, you know, to, I took my bow on my first sheep hunt in 2008 and it’s 2022. You know, it’s a long, long time to have a goal and, and, and not knowing if you’re really ever gonna get there, you know, because it’s, there’s a lot, a lot goes into doing it. A lot of luck. You’re Brendan, it’s expensive Brenda, you’re one of the most driven people we know. We’re pretty sure it’s gonna happen once you’re gonna start it.

00:19:32:12 –> 00:20:29:18
But, but if you’re like me, like when, I mean the first sheet pun I went on, I didn’t, I didn’t see the end no result. The first, when you get started you don’t see the end. You can’t, you honestly, you can’t even see going on their second sheet hunt. ’cause your first one’s like all you can afford. It felt like, you know, when I went up with, listen, when I went up with listen in oh eight, my goal was to be a quarter slammer. I didn’t know if I’d get one. Like yeah. Like that, that was the goal. That’s so, yeah, no, I’ve had a, had a lot of opportunity and great Ron. And you know, I mean yeah, even being driven or anything, but there’s some luck and you gotta have some things go your way. I mean, honestly, like when it comes to, this is my second grand slam, but I finished my rifle one in 2017. But like where, when you talk about archery grand slam, like the stone sheep, I don’t think so. There’s 85 grand slams of the bow now. Like it’s not very many. Jack Frost did it first in 1985. That’s a long time ago. And you know, he takes a lot of luck and, and you know, they’re expensive and especially like, I mean with the grand slam of the bow man, the stone sheep is, it’s the linchpin. Like I got, I’ll say I got lucky.

00:20:29:23 –> 00:21:26:27
I mean, I, I killed the first good stone sheep I ever stocked. I was able to get an arrow in and, and and kill and geez. And that is, that was, that was, that was the, that was, it took me 50 days to kill a doll sheep. I knew I would eventually get doll with my bows if I just kept after it. But it, you know, like the, the linchpin was the stone sheep. ’cause they’re, they’re expensive. Those are, as you know, I mean you’ve both been on the farm, they’re few and far between and something’s gotta go. It’s getting worse and worse too. It’s getting worse and worse. We all know people with rifles that, that don’t kill ’em. You know, that, you know, you go on there with a well intended outfitter place and whether it be weather or just distribution or just bad luck at 65 to 70 5K pop. Yeah. Now it’s like yeah, you’re, you’re, you’re lucky to see a good legal ram on a stone chief hunt. Oh yeah. And let alone to be in the right spot to kill with a bow. Yeah. And you know, I mean, like I said, things are good, but like to do three or four, you know, to do a couple of those with a bow, like I see why guys end up getting with a rifle, like, you know, going, going to the rifle. I, I totally get it.

00:21:26:27 –> 00:22:26:03
Like that’s a, that’s an opportunity, you know, you don’t wanna leave without one. So it’s just, it’s a mental battle. And you know, like the, I was lucky enough draw, you know, obviously we’ve talked before about the Big Horn. That was amazing. And then, you know, I just ground away at the doll sheep. Like that was my nemesis. And I knew I’d eventually get one with the snow sheet. That was, that was the, that was the linchpin and the desert hunt was, it was amazing on Carman Island. It’s is a complete conservation success story. They put ’em on there in 19, they terra plant Siess on there in 1996. There is just a pile of sheep on there. I stock five rams in four days. There’s sheep every, every day you’re seeing sheep. It’s a fantastic place to go. Bohan sheep. I just could not say enough about it. That’s awesome. And yeah, I killed a really, really big whimsy. You know, it turned out to have really big bases, beautiful 10-year-old ram and, and it was just awesome. It’s kind of a cool thing. It’s gorgeous ram. Yep. Yeah. And it’s, it’s one of those things when you finish that it’s kind of bittersweet ’cause you’re like, it’s such a goal for such a long time. And I encourage anybody to set that goal because you just, you don’t know what you’re gonna be able to do.

00:22:26:09 –> 00:23:26:04
No, I never thought I would be able to get, like, I really truly never thought I’d have a grandson, let alone too. No, but it’s like, if you don’t, if you don’t say it out loud, if you don’t set that goal, you’ll you’ll, it’s, you’re not gonna accidentally get one. That’s for sure. That’s right. That’s right. Well, because you both have, you both have, we have. And it’s, it’s just, I didn’t ever, yeah, my first one Jason, was what? Well, we’ve talked about his many times, times, times the year he got married and left his wife after about a week of marriage, he went on his first. Yeah, we didn’t have his cell phone. No cell phone. She didn’t know if he was even alive for two weeks. So I mean it’s that’s, you don’t see an end when you’re in that position. No, but I was telling Adam, I mean, we both killed Callie’s, California big horns, but like to, I want to kill a big rocky, a mountain mountain rocky. Yeah. We both do. That’s cool. And those opportunities are dwindling. Yeah. I mean like crazy. It’s, yeah, seems like the biggest bother. Like I said, I got lucky and I got lucky and Drew and killed a fantastic big horn here. But like, I mean tho the, the rocky is the absolute heart just in general in the Grand Slam just because Oh yeah, you know, Canada, the success rate is not great.

00:23:26:06 –> 00:24:28:15
I mean, I’ve obviously guide big horn hunters every year and the majority of guys that come with me have been two or three times to Alberta, BC and there’s just less opportunities for them as well. That’s right. And then, you know, the draw odds, I mean, brutal and getting worse. Yeah. I’ve never looked, I’ve getting worse through the odds. Yeah, no, yeah. I’ve never looked through the odds so much and, and it pops into my head like statistical impossibility. It’s just like, wow. That’s right. And then the Wyoming thing, like, there was, there was a lot of guys like, man, that that hurts. It’s gonna sting them coming up. I mean, it, it’s just hard. It’s a gift. It’s a blessing and a gift when you get a sheep tag through a draw system of some kind, whether it be a desert, you know, and then to capitalize on it. Yeah. And then to make, make it, make it happen. Desert rocky. And then, you know, of course there’s, you won your first stone cheap, you won it through the western hunting conservation ex go the full, full cross side. You won that with, you’re doing, I mean there’s just gotta have your name, a few have your names out there. Stuff just happens. It, it can and and within means, and those hopefully will change over time.

00:24:28:19 –> 00:25:23:28
But like we all said, when we first started, I didn’t, I thought the first sheep I ever hunted would be a desert sheep in Utah. So that’s when I first started putting in four 20 plus years ago. And it was quote my last one that I needed. And it was just the way it worked out after 25 years of waiting to draw that first one I started putting in for other stuff happened, you know, got in the way and, and opportunities. So Yeah. And as you guys know, like everybody says, oh geez, you’ve been lucky. And it’s like, well, when you’re in everything everywhere and you spend like, I mean oh yeah, it’s, it’s a, when it’s a number, when your tax guy talks to you at the end of the year, like, oh, oh, there’s, there’s the amount of cash you pissed away this year at stuff that he doesn’t quite understand. But like, you’re not gonna get lucky unless you’re in everything and you guys have like, I would definitely not call you guys lucky. I mean, you’re, you’ve been playing the game. We get playing the game. But I mean, looking forward from, from this year forward, it’s just feels so brutally tough. Yeah, yeah. Well it does, but I mean, you’re right.

00:25:24:03 –> 00:26:14:22
I mean, we never ta get on here and tout or write about the magazine, the tags that I didn’t draw you, you hear about the ones we do draw, but Yep. But how many hundreds? Many dozens and dozens. You’re just having a name in the hat and play the game within the means and reason and whatever. Sometimes it didn’t even make sense. But I put names once in a while. Things like you said, Brendan, things work out and Yeah. Come your way. You just gotta play the long game. I mean, just, you know, get your, your kid, even with the kids and stuff, you’re like, I I, I always say like, I get young guys that call me and be like, Hey man, I want to do this and that. And it’s like, well listen, it’s, it’s a, it is an absolute marathon. It might be a, it’s a, it’s a 200 mile marathon. It’s a, so you have to just have a plan and if you get lucky enough, I, I think anymore if you draw one really good sheep tag in your lifetime, you’re probably luckier than most. I mean we, you, we’ve obviously, but it’s a different time.

00:26:14:25 –> 00:27:09:05
I was talking to Randy Ulmer about, you know, when he started putting it in the early, early eighties, you know, I, I don’t know the number of tags he’s drawn, but he basically drawn every tag everywhere and it’s a, it’s, it’s not, it’s not because he’s been lucky, it’s because he’s been doing it longer and had more, more persistent persistence Yeah. And mean. It’s just, and, and we, you know, I started at a different time than even you guys did. I mean Yeah. If you had a 10 year jump on me Yep. Your odds are way better. And, and I, I feel bad for the guys that are starting right now because a lot of stuff like you just flash shouldn’t apply for Yeah. It doesn’t, it’s hard to, we say it a lot. Agree. It, it’s hard to justify starting in places like a Washington sheep, you know, sometimes you just do it California, you don’t think about it. Like you just gotta put your name in there, don’t think about it, don’t plan around it. Yep. And then when it comes make the best act. Yep, yep. So yeah. ’cause you guys both drew Oregon, right? Yeah. Right. We did about four or five years apart. Yeah. And sometimes we tell people not to apply for Oregon, but we did mean Yeah. The cost of license has gone up, the odds are worse.

00:27:09:06 –> 00:28:07:00
So I mean it doesn’t, but hey, that was one, that one that we won, the only one that well that we won in terms of Rocky slash Cies, Jason Bron earned get Bronson struggles drawn one and two type drawing ons. But then he’ll, he’ll snag a one in 400 or something like, yeah. I don’t know how that, that’s my luck. But anyway, but we’re in lots of hats this year, so hopefully we’ve all got something big coming our way. But you gonna smash a big bull this year, Brennan? Yeah. What’s your plans in that regard? Let’s talk about Montana Elk or, or maybe yeah, that we’ve had some changes there. You had to pick Andre. Oh man. We’re waiting for the results. Any day up there right now for Elle? Just wondering about these December mule deer hunts. That’s what I wanna know about Brendan. Yeah. Well I, like I said, I wish, I wish I could say, I mean, I have read through all the changes and it seems like every time I open it up and read through, find something different and, and even sorting through what got proposed to what made it through, like, I, it’s very, very confusing. I mean Yep. I can’t tell you what’s gonna happen. I don’t know if I’ll have, I dunno what the odds gonna be. Like if I have the permit. Yeah.

00:28:07:03 –> 00:29:12:21
If I have the permit I drew, I applied for I will, you know, on a big bull, I I maybe I won’t kill a big bull. I’ll definitely scare us. Scare ’em bad. Yeah. One, one or the other. But the, but the 900 cluster, what we’re talking about right. Got broke up. And so it’s a little bit of a guess on what some of these odds are gonna be. They made so many changes because, you know, when you convert longtime special draw permit areas, trophy areas into general areas and understand that those are gonna displace people that, that normally we used to have to apply for permit there and now they’re gonna either pick a different area or go, or, or those or those applications that were nearly guaranteed are now gonna go to the special draw areas that are super hard to draw. Like the elk horns and the bear paws and stuff like that. It’s like they, they made so many changes. You cannot factor in what, what is gonna affect one thing. It’s like we change one thing. Yeah. You can’t predict, you can’t predict what’s going happen. The happen odds this year are gonna be really interesting. We, we’ve, we’ve tried to give our best guess on a few things, but, but with some of the ones that have a thousand to 1500 or so archery tax for, I didn’t think that there needed to be that much change.

00:29:12:21 –> 00:30:13:23
Brendan, why did all this happen? Have they ever figured did not needed to be that much? Have we ever figured out why? I mean, geez, behind the scenes a little behind the scenes, something or other. For sure it has to do with politics and has to do with, you know, the, the Montana has one flaw, and I’m, I’m not the only one that’s gonna say this, but the, the biggest flaw in Montana with our elk is our elk management plan. Our, our elk objective. And, and the Montana’s elk objective is some BSS number that is set in between carrying capacity and extinction based on social recommendations. And it literally has nothing to do with anything. So it’s social, it’s just social, political. It’s totally social. So, so they go like, oh, we’re over objective. And it’s like, man, I don’t know anybody that thinks there’s too many elk on public land. I do not, I don’t, I don’t know anybody that’s like, man, we sure need to shoot more of those elk on public land. Like, but it’s, you know, how the interaction with private property and Yeah. And, you know, and there’s, again, it’s so complicated because you, you know, you have private grazing on public land, which affects where they all go in the winter time. Like there’s no, it’s just, it’s just a tough, tough issue.

00:30:13:23 –> 00:31:16:11
And like I, you know, again, I I understand from the private, private property owners standpoint, I understand from the public land guy, like, it, it’s just really, really complicated. And, and when they do these monster sweeping changes where they affect, you know, so much, you know, again, it’s like playing chess, but you get to move four times. Oh yeah. It’s kinda like, what’s, dude, you can’t perceive. I, I know I can’t, I’m not those guys, those chess savants that can predict the whole board in every move and to the end result, you know, you’re, I’m not lying. Yes. I’m, I’m reactionary and this is gonna be interesting. We’re literally waiting it day by day to see what’s gonna happen. We’re we’re waiting for the results actually. We’re all for today, for draws tomorrow, whatever, you know. So yeah. It’s gonna be, it is very gonna be very interesting. And then, you know, the big, the major change, which a lot of people don’t even, I mean, everybody I talk to like half people don’t even know is the fact that if you draw a limited permit somewhere, you can’t hunt anywhere else. Yeah. And that’s probably bigger deal for, that’s a big thing for residents, especially I think a lot of non-residents. It’s either one or the other. We come to Montana, when I say we’ve non-residents would come there to hunt our limited quota area for elk or our general, that’s our intention.

00:31:16:15 –> 00:32:19:21
But residents in the past, you’ve been able to, well, you buy your general tag at Walmart, wherever, and you draw your special area, which is a permit that allows you to also hunt there with a bow, but it doesn’t confine you to that area. You had a lot of options. Now it’s not many, you know, and that’s the big thing you’re talking about. So, and usually it feels like non-residents in the past. Usually it feels like non-residents are discriminated against, but now it’s you guys too. I mean, like your state everywhere, you know, you’re stuck where you draw your permit and it’s like, I think I’ve killed big bulls in, I don’t know, nine different counties in Montana. Like, I, you know, there’s a lot of times where you like to bounce, you know, I think, I think people, yeah, I think people think that there’s these really good elk spots. It’s like, there’s a lot of places that can be good at any given time and you need to be there when it happens. And the ability to bounce around, especially if you’re hunting a mix of public and private and whatever you can get on like that, that, that is generally how you’re, you’re very successful in Montana now. It’s just like, man, you’re stuck here and it’s gonna cause you know, the pressure on public land where people are stuck. I mean, I mean guy guys are gonna hunt, you know, that’s it.

00:32:19:21 –> 00:33:26:13
And they, and they can’t move around. They’re gonna, they’re gonna be there and that’s gonna push more pressure on ’em. And it’s just, yeah. It’s just, it’s, there’s so many changes that it’s gonna be interesting to see. Hopefully. I, like I said, I’m, I’m not optimistic that it’s gonna make any positive changes. I can say that I don’t, my gut feeling is it’s not either because in general terms it feels like, yeah, on the private lamb, we’ll call ’em dominant areas, which, or even just healthy mixes of public and private. It feels like those areas probably get got a shot in the arm, both in rifle and archery elk tags and are probably gonna kill more elk. A because there’s more tags in some of them, some cases art or rifle. But then, yeah, those people that drum, you’ve gotta stay there and kill one there. You can’t go like, I’m gonna hunt here and then I’m gonna go with my, my general crew. We’re gonna go to the Bob Marshall, you know, for, you know, my, my annual hiatus over there with all guys. There’s not, you’re, that’s your outcome, but we’re seeing restrictions everywhere. It’s just, and it’s not bounce around. Yeah. And the 900 used to be able to bounce around basically all of Eastern Montana. Now you’re stuck in one specific area. And if that’s no good, you now cannot go hunt a general area. Yes, that’s right.

00:33:26:13 –> 00:34:24:07
Which is like the first time ever. Like you couldn’t, the the end result, you can’t go to a place where the end result. Will it be better, could it potentially make it better though, Brendan? I don’t, I don’t think it will. Or will it for, or will it force people to hunt where maybe they might otherwise bounce now it’ll force ’em to grind out and kill something in that particular, I think it’s gonna concentrate, it’s gonna concentrate people on the place that they’re, they’re, they’re only allowed to hunt. I I don’t, I I believe, you know, spreading people out and people bouncing around and, and you know, like the, the pressure is what drives a lot of that stuff. And, and, you know, people just be, they’ll just stay in the same place and they, they can’t, they don’t have any other place to go. Yeah. I mean, when you legally can’t go anywhere else and don’t have any other options. I mean, people are resilient. They figure stuff out. I mean I’ve, you know, the, the, the, I’ve discovered a lot of, a lot of really good spots because the spot I was in sucked and I had to go somewhere else. Right. And now you’re, you’re basically stuck in, in one area. And especially, you know, we have a lot of private property and that’s just how the state is.

00:34:24:07 –> 00:35:32:07
And you know, those public places are just gonna be hots spotted and Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s such a complicated issue, but I just, I don’t think this is the way that they, that they fix it to, to, to limit residents and, and to, to smaller, smaller places. I mean, you know, they don’t even know the statistics on anything. I mean, ultimately we don’t even have, you know, they, I was, I went to one of the meetings and, you know, they, we don’t have mandatory reporting and it’s just, it’s so insane to make these kind of giant sweeping judge, you know, decisions not knowing what the, and we don’t have random, you know, they extrapolate from the people that pick up the phone. I haven’t been called in so long, I can’t even remember. They have no idea what I’ve killed on any level whatsoever. And so it’s, it’s, you know, like every state that’s ever implemented mandatory reporting has said, wow, we didn’t realize how far off our data was. And they continue to go like, oh no, we’re, we’re good with just, you know, one in 10 and we can extrapolate it out. So I mean, I I think, I think getting the data correct would be one great place to start before they made giant changes. Because I, I, I mean, again, they can’t tell you if a thousand permits is gonna be enough wherever those are. No, they, they don’t know.

00:35:32:10 –> 00:36:34:29
No, they were, and I don’t know either they were just splitting up the 4,000 the best they saw fit, throwing, grabbing a loaf of bread, throwing chunks at places and say, all right, it’s, it’s gone four thousands distributed, let’s let’s do a draw. But I know there’s probably a little bit of stuff they’re basing it off of. But accidental mismanagement though could potentially end up a few giants. Some, some place it might, they might under in areas some of these desert areas, they don’t know how many animals are out there on the landscape. And sometimes it’s an accidental mismanagement on the positive side of for game. And you see something special. I, I don’t know, there’s gonna be a little bit of, I don I don’t think anybody’s intentionally trying to tank the hunting in Montana or anything, but they’re maybe some consequences like that they’re trying to fix something that wasn’t broken. You know, they need to make a change for the sake of change and that’s a bad reason to do anything, you know? Right. But what about it’s, it’s not that bad. I I, I’m imagine I’ll see an elk or two and, and you know, I mean, like I said, you, you kind of react to how it goes and it goes in cycles. I mean, well we do, there’s times when it’s great, sometimes it’s not. Yeah.

00:36:34:29 –> 00:37:42:07
We do it in every state and you know, every, not every state’s regulations are the same. Not, you know, whether it be equipment wise, season, date wise, whatever. And you just adapt and, and do what you gotta do in that state to make it work. So yeah, hopefully you draw something. Hopefully we all draw something and we’re, yeah, we’re sharing big bulls in Montana, but what about, what about, you know, moose, sheep, goat always is a little bit different from a non-resident perspective in Montana where they rotate the units, you know, that we can choose, you know, we can’t apply for every unit in the state. They set those, you know, kind of, I don’t wanna say arbitrary arbitrarily, but they do kind of feels that way, you know, but they, they leave, you know, some units that are constant, the units that have higher permit numbers are generally always there, like 4 82 and 6 22 and six 80 for sheep. Pigs are getting tougher there too. But outside of that, those like, man, it’s slim Pickens for sheep, and I’m, I mean, and it’s Slim Pickens I think even feels like the brake for you guys up there, but what’s your take on it? Yeah, it’s an interesting, it, it’s an interesting time. I mean like, like you guys can apply obviously 4 82, 6 22, 6 80, and those are probably some of the best units in the west.

00:37:42:07 –> 00:38:37:07
But they’re, you know, having hunted them in the heyday, they’re, they’re definitely not what they used to be. And you can, and, and again, that’s where all the statistics are right there. You can look at it like they’re just not, they’re flat not killing as bigger rams because they’re killing too many rams. That’s my opinion. The, I mean, governor’s tags are not nearly as big the biggest Rams killed in the, in the state. You know, like I think Oregon killed bigger sheep than we did last year in Montana, which is, you know, that’s, that’s, you know, it’s just, and, and it’s just an age class thing and, and a pressure thing. I mean you, you know, like a lot of those units, they’re, you know, it’s hard to manage sheep numbers, killing rams, you know, they should be trans, you know, there, there’s a lot of things that could be doing, you know, translating use, putting new sheep elsewhere. But like, I mean, they’re, they’re worried about overpopulation, which is obviously always a, a, a concern, but they just, just there, there’s a lot of sheep getting killed, that’s for sure. And it’s just, you know, it, it takes a lot of luck for, you know, they’re not, they’re not whitetailed deer. They’re not four and a half, five years old.

00:38:37:09 –> 00:39:38:15
I mean, you, the big ones are 10 and it’s hard for one to live to 10 years old, especially when people hit it so hard and, and they’re, you know, there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of pressure and a lot of tags. Like it’s, it’s, it’s a miracle for a big ram to make it, you know, and, and again, people aren’t passing cheap up. Like when you have one opportunity to kill a ram, it’s not like you can go like, wow, man, that’s a really big 6-year-old. We should probably let him go. Like, man, that’s your only tag probably in your, definitely in your lifetime. Like you can’t blame somebody for taking a big ramp. So it’s, I mean, it’s still as good a hunting as there is anywhere in the world, but it’s not what it could be or has been. And, you know, some of these, I, it it’s also kind of semi kind of an exciting time, like some of these other areas. I mean, I’m looking through like, you know, they don’t kill that many sheep in 1 24 and, and in two four, you know, like those, those areas all have, have a chance to produce a great big ram. I mean there’s, there’s no doubt about it. I mean, you look through the data in the past and what they’ve produced it, it just takes the right ram, you know, having the right winner and a couple good years.

00:39:38:16 –> 00:40:34:01
And, and the nice thing about areas that don’t have a lot of tags is that you don’t really know what the, you know, like when it comes to the breaks, what’s there, there could be, yeah. When it comes to the breaks, you kind of know what’s there. The data will say that, ’cause there’s a lot of hunting pressure, a lot of really good hunters. But when you have one or 2, 3, 4 tags, you don’t really know what kind, what kind of hunters those guys are. They know anything about sheep, what their goals are. You know, a lot of people just, man, they’re just super excited. There’s a good, I’m gonna get it. There’s two tags at two 14, so who knows, right. It’s kind of depends on who, who draws the tag. There’s big, big sheep can come out. You know, the, the beauty of Montana is you can, you can kill a book sheep just about anywhere in some of these areas, you know, like it’s every 5, 6, 7 years all of a sudden there’s, there’s a great big one, 190 plus inch ram. You know, so there’s, you know, they hadn’t killed a, where I killed my ram in, in Montana. They hadn’t killed a great big sheep in seven or eight years and there was a pile of big ones in there. It just depends on the hunters that draw ’em. So, you know, you gotta put your name in the hat.

00:40:34:22 –> 00:41:32:18
You can’t kill what’s not there, you just gotta go put it in the time when you do draw one of those tags and, and hit it as hard as you can and, and, and find the best ram you can. And, and, and, and luckily in Montana it’s not really gonna be a dink there. There’s a lot of, it’s gonna be good sheep and Yeah. And to, and to your point, like when, you know, when I drew that tag down there in Arizona, same kind of thing. Yep. And ever since it feels like it was a one hit wonder. But Bronson, that year we were down there, oh, we saw a lot of good rams. We couldn’t wait to be back for the, the Rams we thought were maybe you’re two younger than your ram, but they built similar we thought, but similar, very and could be that potential 180 plus. But anyway, and then has happened, know even we’ve been back and it, what it has, it wasn’t the same. Yeah. So whether whether they didn’t all die. Yeah, probably not. You know? No, they’re around and, and it’s knowing what you’re looking at and getting, getting time to, you know, that’s why I always say like, man, if you get a chance to go on a sheep tag, get any experience you can before it’s, you know, crunch time and it’s your own tag.

00:41:32:25 –> 00:42:38:05
I, I mean you don’t, you know, like it’s hard to be an expert in six days at, at judge and sheep. It’s probably one of the hardest things to do. So like, you know, anytime you get on Sheep Hunt Yeah. You, no matter who draws a tag, go, because that’s, that’s how you gain that experience to know what you’re actually looking at. I think a lot of people they, they shoot sheep and they go like, oh geez, I thought it was different and, you know, but no, it’s, it’s, it’s, they, I I think there’s some pretty decent options for non-residents this year and Yeah. You know, obviously not a lot of them, you know, about seven or eight total, I can’t remember. Yeah. But, you know, oh, you know, units. But yeah, the amount 1 24, 2 14, 3 44 22, 4 2. Yeah, that’s 4 82. 4 22 is a great, you know, that’s a front you that’s a great one. It’s always, yeah. You could easy fun rutt hunt piled. Yep. You know, sheep piled up on the front range right there in November. Yeah. You know, so anyway, not a lot to choose from, but hey, beggars aren’t choosing to come to sheep. We’re always usually dreamers and like you said, said well a cheap management’s sensitive ’cause you got a kind of a fragile species. And a lot of guys are believing that every ram should die with somebody behind it and they don’t care about the quality as much. So Yeah.

00:42:38:10 –> 00:43:42:00
You know, they’re scared to waste them, so to speak. And then they’ve got the biological tendencies that they do to overpopulate and you got Rams bursting at the seams, going out, picking up something, bringing it back. And then the catastrophic, but I wanna see some sheep. And I, we, Bronson we’re dealing with it here in Utah. Guys want to see, even if they’re sick horns, they want ’em to have hunters behind them. Yeah. And it’s, and I, and I understand that to a degree, but man doesn’t, don’t you wanna see some good rams once in a while? We, we’ve seen it in Utah. Look at, look at the units for deserts and Rockies historically that are our best units. Both of them for the last few years haven’t, haven’t maybe been because the increase, Zion’s been hammered, increased attack. Oh yeah. You know, Karo, it’s west and and east have been getting hammered. And then you got these fringe units, ones he’s in twosies out there. I mean, last year we killed a one 70 net desert. A weird on the, on the oddest ball unit. That’s right. And it surprised me. I’m not even, I’m even gonna pretend like a, I saw it coming. I’m not, but it was a giant ram and a onesie twosie unit. And that’s kinda what Burns is talking about in one of these Oh yeah. Western, we’ll call ’em Western Montana Mountain two units. 14 2 2 tag area. Yeah.

00:43:42:00 –> 00:44:42:07
No, 2, 4 22. Some Bob Marshall Ram drifts low or, or, or you go back in and some of those Bob Marshall units, or even in region three, they got some big rams in region three and some units. So you can just one when you’re the one or one of two guys in there, like you said, just the two to three years of the draw cycle and who’s drawn ’em and how much time they had to put into ’em or their circumstances. It’s, those are such a small, simple site we need to apply. I just have a hard time going out and, you know, I want, you wanna feel like you could see something super special and in Montana you can Yeah. It’s different. That’s a different state you can in every unit. I understand that. But we can’t, can’t, can’t not ask you about unlimited. I mean, there’s a lot of people that have questions. There’s probably even more questions now because of the reasons we’ve talked about. The difficulty of getting sheep tags anymore at some, at some point that’ll go away and we’ll all we’ll all feel bad be in capital on that. People. That was stupid. We didn’t go, at least I, I know if it, I I don’t know if it will. I mean, I think on of the, they’re doing a good job of managing, I think there’s as many rams as, you know, there’s good rams in there. Yeah.

00:44:42:07 –> 00:45:41:27
More so than they’ve, they’ve ever had. And, and they seem to manage it very well. You know, occasionally they’ll kill an extra ram on accident just because of the 48 hour closure, but they’re, they’re doing a pretty proactive job and there’s a lot. It’s, it’s been pretty good. I mean, it’s, it’s a time commitment. I mean, it’s one of those things where, you know, like there, there’s, there is no secret if, if somebody tells you they got a secret spot, there’s almost never been a the same ram, you know, a ram killed in the same spot. They’re totally nomadic vast, but that’s the beauty of it. Vast country. And they’re basically, most of these are units. They don’t want to take people’s points from ’em because the year you draw it might be terrible. You can’t find the sheep, you don’t, you burn your points. You don’t kill one. But like, all right, we set a threequarter curl limitation. Go have at it. Most of ’em I think are all two, two ram quotas, if I remember right. Yep. Off the top of my head. But, but don’t, two or three don’t have had it, man. Go, go crush it. And people shouldn’t be afraid of it. But you also don’t be, don’t be afraid to have to do it two, three times before something. So guys have done it a dozen times. Yeah. You know? Yeah.

00:45:41:27 –> 00:46:38:07
If you put a 10 year plan together, which you know anymore, that’s, that’s, that’s what you gotta do. And, and, and you can throw a week or two out at a time. It’s, I mean, it definitely seems like the people that put in the most time are gonna make happen and, and and, and don’t stop after the season closes and continue to scout and look around. Like those guys kind of are the luckiest guys. And that’s, I wouldn’t call that luck. So they’re, it’s definitely an option, you know, I mean there’s, there’s six more. I mean it’s nearly the same amount of rams available as is, as are in the draw. And you can just get one over the counter and go. So, you know, it just depends. I mean there, you know, it’s, it’s just tough hunting. I mean, the fact that there’s really not an outfitter since Jack Assen quit doing it in the nineties that has consistently ever produced a sheep. I mean, like most, I I would say almost every sheep is killed on your own self-guided with buddies, just team buddies that are saying, Hey, I’ve done it and I’ll I’ll help you after I kill one. I’ll help you tow, you kill one for a few years, you know, whatever it takes. Yeah. They’re, it’s definitely an option.

00:46:38:08 –> 00:47:30:25
And, and anymore, you know, given, given the, the landscape of Rocky Mountain Bighorns, I mean I I I’ve, I’ve said it for a long time, we’ve talked about this before, but you know, when it comes to like the grand slam and stuff, there’s far more guys that are gonna die without a rocky than any other machine. Yeah. Any other, like you, you, you just, it’s something has to go right. It’s the one you can’t, feels like you can’t buy it, you know, you can’t make it happen and, and can’t book a hunt for it per se. No. The price obviously been going. Yeah, that’s right. With, with high enough success rate to say if I just spend the money, I’m gonna kill one. Like, and we’ve already talked about you almost can’t do that with stone sheep, but, but, but it’s like Brendan guys that are hunting with you, that have hunted Canada how many times, you know, and not made it happen. And we know lots of guys ourselves, oh, that’s why all these lower 48 rocky tags are nuts in price because you’re gonna kill one if you just write the check and the other state tag. So Yeah. And that, and it’s, it’s a bummer like some of those Canadian areas, you know, like, I mean you can’t kill what’s not there.

00:47:30:28 –> 00:48:34:17
I mean the way they’ve gotta set up with the, which I get it with the residents, get to hunt early and some of those areas are surrounded, you know, they got parks and it’s mi heavy on migratory sheep and you know, they’re just some, a lot of them. Well, and you get four fifths curl ations and stuff like that to where like a lot of places, if you get an older ram that burns off, he’s not legal anymore. So you gotta shoot a five or 6-year-old. Right, right. When he is finally pushed enough horn out there to be legal in some cases, that’s what you gotta shoot. It’s just a, yeah. So Brendan, I’ve got a challenge for you. Bronson doesn’t know, I don’t know what he, he’s gonna say he’s going rogue right now. We need, we need to find Bronson a big bull moose. Oh geez, boy. He’s got max points for me. Trust me, I’ve hit burn burns has tapped out with his, his knowledge years ago. And I’m not holding you, I’m not faulting you for it. There’s new units. No, no. There’s new units, there’s new opportunities for not residents. If he could hatch one, I’m sure I would be the first one. This I’ve seen far more, I’ve seen, I’ve seen far more 200 inch sheep than I have moose that you would want to take the cape on.

00:48:34:19 –> 00:49:29:19
I like, I mean it’s just something I don’t Oh no, you just don’t see a lot of ’em. I don’t hunt western Montana that, I don’t hunt Western Montana that much either. But it’s, it’s definitely one of those things where you just, you do not see the, I actually, when I had my goat tag in down here in south of Bozeman, I, I ran into the guy that was hunting moose and I actually ended up, like, I saw a fork. Fork and a spike together and, and it was an older guy and I, I told him where they were and he went up and killed and the guy had been hunting for 20 something days and it was the only moose I saw. I was telling Jason, you look at some of these days to per harvest and it’s in twenties, 20. And I’m thinking, yeah, who you tap out. One guy didn’t have 40. Oh, I’d have to pull up the raw data. But it’s like, who, who keeps hunting? Who would I would tap out? I mean, it doesn’t, maybe it doesn’t mean enough to me or I’m just maybe mean going, is it a local that went out for an afternoon every count, every day? It probably means some of that, but, but not when you see the same unit over 20 days every single year. Yeah. It’s rough. Yeah.

00:49:30:06 –> 00:50:26:03
Well I think people think if you, if you put in and draw one, like you’re gonna go get a moose. But I mean if you really look at it like in your head, like how many moose do you actually see? ’cause it’s not many for me. Like I don’t, like, I No, no. They’re not hard to see and I don’t see many of ’em. Yeah. It’s almost like seeing a lion out in the wild without dogs. Just tough. Tough. Well anyway. Well I knew you couldn’t help me, but thanks Jason for trying to look out for me. Well just Brendan, you, you’ve got, you’ve got a lot of contact. Somebody’s gonna find something. Brennan probably has max points for moose too. ’cause he probably started I back when it happened, but he got Max and I knew he drew goat. He’s drawn his goat and sheep, so I know you. He’s goat on those. So there you go. I drew, I drew a moose when I was in, when I was a, a sophomore in high school and killed a really good one with a rifle. But it was before the, and I mean think points I maybe one under, yeah, maybe one under max or max. I worked out work. You waited here seven years and you might’ve missed the first or second year in 90. Have you got a, have you got a plan? Have you got second? I think I drew 93. Yeah.

00:50:26:04 –> 00:51:19:23
I just applied for area that’s got pretty good. I mean I, I, that was the last animal in Montana. I needed to kill with my bow. Okay. And so I, I I go to an area that’s got a high population and there’s, there’s a bunch of ’em down the stuff in Southwest I kind of bounce around Yeah. In a bunch of those areas where, where I do see a few moose, but Sure. You know, it’s, it’s definitely, I wouldn’t call it the heyday for moose, that’s for sure. And, and you know, it’s tough. It’s like if you, you know, oh, it’s tough. Not a big moose hunter in Montana. And, and I, and I primarily spend most of my time east of here, so I don’t really spend my time in, in moose habitat either. Which, you know, like I said makes sense, but not a lot, whole lot of change probably in the goat world either. I mean, we, we gloss, we talk a lot more about sheep in Montana than we do the moose and the goat. We’d moose, what we just talked about is what we say. There’s been better days and you’re lucky to kill a big one and there could be a good one anywhere. One one could pop up there absolutely could. And again, it’s the same thing. There’s so low density. Yeah.

00:51:19:24 –> 00:52:22:10
And there’s so few people that hunt really, really hard that would draw a tag country wouldn’t see something that was acceptable and be done that, you know, there could be, there could be a giant that’s where you, you see those, you know, those great big, you know, 55 inches and stuff get killed. You’re just like, wow, where did that come from? It’s like, well he zigged when everybody else zagged for four or five years and that’s how he got big. Yeah. Yeah. And then goats, I mean, you know, you got some, some units like the square buttes and bridgers and all that’ve kind of been known as the, the best. And, and we can as an owners put in for the bridgers, but outside a couple of those, you talk about the absorica, you know, all the stuff lining the northern park boundary there through, you know, from Red Lodge back to Gardner, all those units, just the biggest vastest amount of goat habitat I’ve ever seen. I’ve, I’ve hunted 3 16, 20 years ago. Yep. And it’s just kind of a little tiny unit in the middle of all that. And it does have a little bit of access to trailhead. So I didn’t even have to Well I did use a horse took, I talked about that. That’s when you, I used, I rode a pack, wrote the pack tree, wrote a pack tree. Yeah. The guy forgot saddles. But anyway, that’s another story.

00:52:22:10 –> 00:53:27:28
Anyway, keep on going. But it’s just, man, it’s vast Brendan. It, it is enormous. And then you get into, you know, western Montana, it feels like you got a little more fragmented goat populations here and there Sure. As you, as you work your way west. But in general, a lot of good classic, I guess you just call ’em classic backcountry goat hunts for mostly good good average goats, but just classic country beware of bears and a lot of it too grizzlies. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I think, I think that the, you know, all these units, I’m looking at everything that’s available that on residents, like they’re, they’re, they’re all, you know, plenty of goats in there. It’s, it’s great hunting. I, I freaking love goat hunting. I had, you know, finally after 29 years, obviously drew one and killed the big one with my bow and had, it’s just a phenomenal hunt. But, you know, the, the thing I would just recommend anybody that drew is don’t wait for hair. Like they, they’re plenty haired up early, especially Billy, but I think wait for bad weather. I think the problem, I think the problem that people have is they, they have this plan like, I’m gonna wait to be, just because the season goes till November doesn’t mean that’s when you should, should hunt. Like theres, you should not be there. No. Yeah.

00:53:28:04 –> 00:54:17:13
I mean I, I was hunting September 1st, which is where the area I drew and those Billys were plenty haired up September 1st. Like, not, not, not tennis ball haired up, but like really well haired up. It was already snowing, you know, the 29th of August in places. Like, I don’t, I don’t think people understand what that, what that country gets even in late summer all of a sudden. Well you get the job done before the weather comes in. Oh yeah. If you remember it’s been eight or 10 years ago. They used to all open up September 15th and they had a Yep. Winter early September that crushed like three feet of snow in the back country and like 75% of the people couldn’t even go hunt the rest of the year. Yep. And so they moved it to September 1st for that very reason. Just get going, get, get hunting. I, I waited till October I guess I dodged a bullet and, and I was, that was 20 years ago. Oh did I waited till like the fifth or eighth or ninth or 10th or somewhere and it was Bluebird weather that year. I was got lucky I guess.

00:54:17:13 –> 00:55:15:29
But yeah, we, we see it and we hear probably that’s the probably I would say the biggest reason people are, if you’re in good condition and you are able to hunt hard, that’s probably still the biggest reason you don’t kill one is you get weathered out If people are able to go hunt hard. Feels like, well, and, and here’s the thing, like just ’cause you can start hunting like, I mean here I’m a classy example. I like, I had a couple big Billys picked out September one made a play on him, didn’t make it happen. I didn’t arrow a big Billy until October 8th. There you go. Just because you know, circumstances, you know? Yeah. You bump him once and he goes on to some cliffs if they’re they’re dead. That’s right. Yeah. I mean if they’re not in a good spot, you’re not gonna get ’em. And and I, I would, I would definitely spend the time find the goat you want. If you decide he doesn’t have the hair, then we’ll just keep an eye on him until he does. But you know, they don’t miraculously all of a sudden turn into puff ball September 20th. No, I mean it’s progressive and it’s pretty fast too. But yeah, there’s, there’s, and it’s like I said, it’s a great hunt. There’s not really a ton of pressure to it. The difference between a mega giant and a really big one or not, you know? Yeah.

00:55:16:00 –> 00:56:14:14
Eight and a half to 10 and a half is not that big of a deal. And, and you know, we have a lot of really good goats and, and, and there’s a lot, you know, you generally can find some help and they’re not the hardest thing to find in the world. They’re just the hardest, they’re just tough to find in the right spot. That’s right. Well, I agree. Well, anything else we haven’t covered up there and big sky country. Yeah, no, I think that that’s pretty, that’s kind of basic wrap. Yeah. Those are pretty much the big changes and hopefully yeah, we’ll see, like I said, I’m, I’ve been every day hoping we will. Is it, you think it’s coming out like this week or next today? Well, I call, I call, by the time everybody listens to this it’ll be out. But I mean, I called a day or two ago and they, they told me first to next week, but sometimes they tell you that just so you quit bother ’em and then they throw it up a day or well you the first g that answers the phone and they don’t really know. But yeah, so should be soon I think by first or sec Monday, Tuesday next week with the latest. But anyway, we’ll see. I’m good. Yeah, yeah, we’re out there. That’ll be interesting. It’ll be interesting to see.

00:56:14:17 –> 00:57:19:15
I’m, I’m, I’m hoping that the, that all the changes haven’t, haven’t affected it to where the odds are because you just, it’s, you know, when you observe that, no idea what those odds are gonna be. No idea. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Well, besides that, do you got anything else already planned for the year cashing in points somewhere that you wanna talk about? Are you going up north? You mentioned you going hunting again this year, year you’ve been four years or whatever. So it’s your four years up. Yep. I’m going rounder hunting with Lance again and the exact same thing we didn’t four years ago. I can’t believe it’s been four years. But yeah, I’ve been crazy shooting my bow every day, getting, getting ready to rock and leave on, on May 7th. And I’ve kind of, that’s, that’s one of those things I just absolutely love that hunt and gonna do that every four years until, until they, they tell me I can’t come back. So, and we’ll see, like I said, it’s, it’s a fun place to be. I’ve obviously killed a giant in the past, so be pretty picky and, and don’t need, you know, brown bear’s are one of those things, like two brown bear mounts is probably one too many. So like I, you know, you get a place to it better be a special bear. Well your last one was special. Yeah. You haven’t even got all your text every day.

00:57:19:17 –> 00:58:21:13
Yeah, of course. He was up else. He only had one ear if I remember right. So you might shoot a pretty one this time. Shoot one with two ears. Yeah. Yeah, that’s, I’m, I’m kidding. I understand now why back in the late 18 hundreds everybody went to the head mount and it’s just straight for room. They, they were far ahead of us. Oh yeah. Right, right. Yeah. But no, I’m looking forward to grounding out, let kick it off here for you in a couple weeks then here. Yep. And, and I’m going stone sheep hunting in the Yukon in August. And then the, the normal stuff I’m, I’m in, I’m in every after after everything. That’s awesome. Yeah, I mean I’m hoping you guys will rub off some good luck. I’d love to hunt Nevada one of these days, but it seems like I’ve been behind the, behind the eight ball on, on, on drawing Nevada since the day I started playing, so Yeah, well for elk especially it is, it is brutally tough to draw there. It, it is, but it’s, it’s very rewarding in those elite two or three units that are pretty special. So you got something if you, when you get it, but Well, good luck. Yeah. And you’re going, you’re going back, you, you’re doll sheep on this fall. Yeah, my four years is up, so Yeah. Yeah. And I think yours will be next year. You’re a year behind me. Yep.

00:58:21:13 –> 00:59:13:00
Correct. So you can hunt sheep in Alaska next year. Mine’s up this year and I’m looking forward to that return trip there and whatnot. That’s awesome. So yeah, we’ll see what the draws do to us all. We’ll have to maybe check back in the end of summer, something like that. When are you, when are you gonna go, when are you going on your next she hunt there, Jason, are you still got those, those furry headed mules are still, I, yeah, I don’t know Brendan. I’m not sure. I, I should, I just got deer plans, man. I got some project bucks and a few things and yeah, it’s just all consuming, you know, so anyway. No, it is, it, it’s, I i to, I mean you, you, you always say it, but it’s true. It’s like you just don’t have time for a second passion when it comes to, you know, no, like for you mul deer for me for elk and sheep. It’s like, boy, there just, you just can’t slip anything else in there if you wanna do it. Right. Nope, that’s right. That’s right.

00:59:13:27 –> 01:00:15:24
So, you know, I’ve kind of, I’ve, I don’t know, I’ve accomplished a lot of goals and whatnot and I’m, I mean, I’m looking forward to drawing, you know, I’ve got other sheep things that I wanna do, but for right now, I mean I’ve got, there’s just a few projects that I’ve gotta keep working on, you know what I mean? And so anyway, can’t talk about everything on the, on it. Yeah, no, we’re gonna back on you now. Stay tuned. I, I wanna know everything about you and your out cutting plans, but I don’t wanna tell you anything, so. Yeah, well that’s all right. You can send me the coordinates. I won’t be there guys, myself. The lower 48 is so competitive Brendan, isn’t it? Yeah. It’s just tough, tough. It’s, it’s a, i I say it all the time, it’s a weird time. There, there are no secrets anymore that, I mean, it’s just, it is, it’s a very, very, you know, like yeah. It, it’s just, it’s a tough time to be, you know, you gotta be super secretive about everything and, and it’s, you know, between the mapping software and applica all that stuff, it’s like, you know, you truly gotta have your own, your own plan for what you want to do because it’s, it’s definitely more competitive than no doubt about that.

01:00:16:04 –> 01:01:24:18
I need a big mountain rocky, I need a big mountain rocky and I need a dark, a gorgeous, dark, big stone. And it’s just, they’re so hard to come by and, and they are and not cheap. And I’m spending a good portion of money hitting deer really hard, you know what I mean? And so, yeah. Anyway, but that’s, that, that is kind of what I want, so. Well good. Yeah. Alright. I’m sure we’ll talk again soon, but yeah, good luck in the drawings. Thanks again guys. Hey, appreciate your time as always and what you guys are doing at ku, you guys been with us from the very beginning, before the beginning, so we appreciate that and your partnership there. And always fun to talk, always appreciate the, the partnership and the friendship and always good to chat with you guys and yeah, thanks a lot. We appreciate it Brendan. See you man. Thanks. Take it easy. You betcha. Yep. Bye. At Epic Outdoors, we help you reach your hunting dreams. Whether it’s helping you to develop a long-term application strategy, or finding the perfect outfitter for your next hunt. As a member of Epic Outdoors, you’ll also receive the Epic Outdoors Magazine and have access to the best hunting consultants in the industry, online tools and more. To join Epic outdoors, visit epic or call 4 3 5 2 6 3 0 7 7 7.