EP 272: The Epic Outdoors Rundown with The Hoyt Bowhunting Podcast and the Advantages of Using a License Application Service

Anything to do with Western big game.

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Hey everybody, Jason Carter, Adam Brunson, John Peterson coming at you from not sunny southern Utah. It's a little snowy out there, boys. A lot snowy. Kind of crazy. Logan, what do you think of all this snow? I love it. Hard to keep a new truck clean, isn't it? It is hard to keep. I have not gotten a car wash lately. We haven't got that new truck, boss. We haven't even talked about that. Tell the world what happened.

Trying to get some more dates? Got a name for it, yeah. What did you name her? Well, I've never named a truck before. One of my friends took to calling it Eugene, like Mr. Krabs off of SpongeBob, but I didn't like it very much. No, me neither. Don't ever say that again. All right, sounds good. It doesn't roll off the tongue. We'll go ahead and cut that off, though. What did you decide, Molly? No, I haven't named it. I've never named a vehicle before. Let's get some suggestions there on our Instagram. It's kind of a maroon F-150. Definitely got a little A at the end of it, a little chica name. Why? Well, it's burgundy. What do you call my truck? It's not a manly color. What do you mean? What? It doesn't scream guns and biceps and sweat. It's not cherry red. It just screams chick magnet. Well, chick magnet. It screams pretty and clean. Got it.

Like, I don't picture a 400-incher in the back of there. Well, I'll show you. Prove him wrong. Prove him wrong. I'm just teasing you. Logan got a new F-150. It's the EcoBoost. It's pretty awesome, dude. Oh, yeah. I'm pretty excited for you. I've been living it so far. Never been a Ford guy, but we'll see how long that lasts. You say that, and I wasn't either. Then I got a Ford, and I was like, freaking awesome truck. Which Ford? That F-150, man. The one you hooked me up with. 14 trucks ago. I had that for like 14 years. Oh, my heck. Okay. That was white. That was manly. And, you know, when I sold that truck, my kids almost cried. Yeah, but John, you told the frame. Yeah, I mean. You tweaked the frame. It was going down the road, crawdad. He's still in love with it, man. That truck still drives around. Oh, that truck? That truck's going to go forever, I think.

I mean, I put a new engine in it. Of course. What haven't you put a new engine in? I put a new engine in every vehicle I've owned. And boat. John is out. And moped. John's the only person I know that gets cold calls from engine companies saying, you haven't bought an engine for us in six months. Can we help you with something? John, did you get a cold call? Yes, I did. Tell us about that. Oh, yeah. I know. It's so funny. Yes. Who does that? Yeah. Are you sure you don't need an engine? Do you need a transmission? How about a ball joint? It's been three months since you've made a $3,000 purchase with us. How come we haven't heard from you? Jay. Ding, ding, ding. John bought a tie rod.

Jeez. I love it, John. John's on a parts right here. Anyway. I mean, for a little shout out. I have sources, you know. Engineworld.com. Engineworld, SW Engines. It's unbelievable. Yeah, they're good. Yeah. He's had good fun. I mean, I've done a Mitsubishi, Toyota, Ford, Land Rover. Okay. All right. So that's enough. We don't have time to go through them all. We don't. We don't. What kind of boat? Bayliner. That was a Merc. That was a engine. Yeah, it was a Bayliner boat, but a Merc engine. I mean, John's the engine king. All right. Anyway, Bronson, let's talk about something hunting-wise. Well, let's do it. Today we're going to get interviewed. I guess the roles are going to be reversed a little bit. You set this up, and these guys are good guys. We've been longtime partners of Hoyt Archery, and our partners that we deal with there asked

us if we'd go on the Hoyt bowhunting podcast, and we said sure. So we're going to do that today with Evan Williams and Danny Ferris. They're going to take the reins, I guess. So we're going to just sit back and see where it goes. Ask some hard questions. Maybe. I hope not. I hope not. Yeah. I'm tired of the questions.

Like, you mean hard questions. Adam and I want to clock out. For the rest of the day. These are hunting-related questions, so they're not too bad. But they wanted to do that with us today, so we'll turn the reins over to them and see where it goes. Pretty awesome. All right. Well, Logan, you're going to have to hook us up with them. I don't know. Is this a Zoom meeting? Because if it's Zoom, Adam and I don't know how to do that stuff. It's all right. I got you. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Hoyt Bowhunting podcast. I'm your host, Danny Ferris, and today we've got our friends from Epic Outdoors on. Jason, Adam, and John. Guys, welcome to the show. Hey. Thanks for having us. Yeah, we appreciate it. No problem, man. You know, today we're going to be talking about preparing for the sometimes daunting task.

Always daunting task, in my opinion, of preparing for your Western hunt applications. By the time that we get this posted up, you'll probably be looking at less than a week for some of your bigger states to have those applications in.

And, boy, for the layman, it is very, very difficult to learn. I've been doing it for a very long time, and I still get confused. Um, Epic Outdoors is a company that is specifically designed to help us with all of this confusion that we've got going around. And Jason here has been doing it for a little while. Um, I first found out who Jason was. I was familiar with his dad, Garth Carter, first. Um, but Jason and Garth, uh, originally started Hunt and Fool a long time ago. Um, and, yeah, I was a, I was a Hunt and Fool subscriber way back in, it must have been mid to late 90s, Jason, something like that. And before it was a magazine, it was just an information pamphlet on different units in different states that you should keep an eye on when you're going in and going in the draw process. And since that time, you have developed into a completely different creature.

And, you know, why don't you take us through your roots and kind of how you arrived where you are right now? Well, let's see. Uh, I was a human trail camera when I was a little kid. We tease about that a little bit because, um, you know, I was taught patience, perseverance and whatever the other P is, all the good P's. And, uh, anyway, so, um, yeah, uh, basically, you know, as I grew up, um, you know, my, my dad was, uh, uh, worked for the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources, gave him fish officer and, uh, also worked in information and education. So various roles, uh, throughout his tenure there. And anyway, uh, we just, uh, learned how to find unique hunts that didn't conflict with the Utah, uh, season dates, um, because he had to work. And so we wanted to hunt. And so we were forced to go out of state, couldn't hunt during the regular seasons here in state.

And so, um, you know, it was just common that, uh, we, we hit the road. We traveled state to state back when it wasn't popular, uh, to travel state to state and learned the regs intimately. Um, you know, Adam and I, uh, you know, throughout our college careers, we reminisce on some of that. And we had regulations coming to our dorms in college, you know, from Oregon and other places. And it's kind of, kind of fun to think about. Um, but there's a lot that goes into the history because we're old and there's been a lot of years gone by. So, uh, good, good times we did. We started, um, you know, uh, basically my dad had the vision to start what is hunting fool. It wasn't named hunting fool from the beginning. It was Garth Carter Hunter services. And on the top of that publication that you're talking about was said newsletter. It said newsletter.

And, you know, let's say it was eight or 10 pages stapled in the corner. We, we, we copied it down at Kinko's and, uh, and sent it out. And, and the idea of it was how do you, how can you make a living in the hunting industry? Just giving out information. Usually you make hunting by booking hunts and you make a commission. And that was kind of the old style of, if you're not going to be an outfitter, that's the other way to make a living in the hunting industry. And so how do you sell information? Do you do that with a 900 number? Do you do it with, um, you know, a membership base or whatever? And so it went into where we started a membership base. Uh, we also, of course, when I was younger than, you know, just prior to that, I booked hunts for Dunn's magazine under my dad and made a commission, uh, off of booking hunts. And so there was a lot that kind of, that morphed into that.

I graduated, uh, at Utah state with a degree in finance, which is totally different and somewhat unrelated, but totally related to business. And, uh, anyway, so ended up, uh, just hunting our guts out, uh, started up the publication and let's say late 96. I came on board August of 97 and, and off we go. And, and of course, with, um, the advancements in, in technology and print and all of these other things, at some point we had to go to color. Uh, John came on board and basically took us to color back then. Around 98. Well, I think it was a little bit later than that. Might have been, yeah, maybe, but around there. I was going to say. Yeah. 2000 maybe. Yeah. I think we were still getting the stapled pamphlet in like 97, 98. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And then, then it went to, you know, shortly thereafter is when the first magazine seemed to, or it went to color, like you said. Yeah. Yeah.

And so I think a lot of it was back in those days. Remember we had facts and so he'd get some of those, remember Bronson when we'd get those, uh, like the new Montana non-resident units that we could apply for, for sheep, goat, moose, things like that. We would get through facts. Yeah. Email was not even. Not invented. Yeah. So, so we had to have unique ways. How do you get the information and then turn it into a, into something on paper and then ship it out in time that a guy could look at it and then apply. So we had to get real creative. And a lot of times Adam and I attended game and fish commission meetings in person, make changes on the road coming home. They didn't have a, didn't have it on zoom or on YouTube like you can watch them now. So you had to go there in person and literally have the magazine shell written and, and adapt

it based on the yeas and nays that they voted right there in front of your face. And then you'd call or you'd call back to the office and say, Hey, you got to change this. They, they, they took one season date and changed it. So things have changed a lot. And then on the fly, Adam and I learned how to, what sees, what the changes is in season dates meant, you know, what, what does a November, you know, a slight, you know, whatever, a change where it allows you to hunt deer and maybe the first five days of November, what does that mean versus an October hunt and, and, um, the uniqueness and the, and finding changes and changes create opportunity and, and then internalizing that and know it with our, coupled with the knowledge of the unit backgrounds and knowing the units that is going to change this unit, these season dates are monumental, or maybe there's some change that

just doesn't matter or doesn't resonate with us. And so you can only learn that one way. And that's by hunting your guts out in every single state you can. So when these changes happen, they mean something to you. And, um, so we learned a lot. There's a lot of intangibles that go into a background and developing an education in the hunting side of things. You don't, there's no college education for becoming, uh, uh, uh, an employee here at Epic Outdoors or becoming a good booking agent or a good source of information. It's, it's, um, you know, kind of a, a very driven personality of wanting to know anything and everything and wanting to capitalize on little tiny changes, wanting to kill the biggest things that walk. Um, you know, I mean, there's, there's a drive that we have to, to harvest the absolute best animals that we, we can.

And with that drive is finding those unique possibilities, you know, those unique hunting opportunities as they arise. Yeah. Well, the chore of data collection back then, I remember reading through those, uh, publications that you were making at the time and we didn't have data available on every one of these units like we do today, where you, if you know where to look, most of these state game commissions or commissions, their websites will have quite a bit of data in there that you can look up from your desk. Like you're talking about, that wasn't a, that wasn't available back then. The sheer number of man hours that went into gathering that information back in those days. And I'm sure that it's just as daunting now because you're putting out so much more than you were back then. But just to gather that information, I, I remember looking at it and of course, what was it?

It was, it was like a hundred bucks a year back then or something like that. Yeah. It was here. It was here too, till just last year. And that's the thing. We haven't had a price increase for how long? 25 years. Well, us here ever since we started. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, you, you, you paid that without even thinking about it because there was so, there was, you had access to information that there was no other way that I knew of that you could, that you could find that. Yeah. That was it. You were either, you were either applying or you were either subscribing to your newsletter or you just didn't know. That's right. That's exactly right. And there was a demand for information, but then how, how do you make a living? You, you, we all have to eat, you know what I mean? And so, I mean, to do it full time and to be, to be good at it, you have to do it full

time and to do it full time, it has to be a career. And, and, and to order to justify that with a family, you've got to be able to make a living financially. And so anyway, that's how there was a demand for it. And then as time goes, I mean, we still hear back from guys that'd be like, man, that was the best thing ever. You know, if we publish that right now with the same kind of information we did back then, people would be, oh, people would be disgusted. Our, our, our, our, you know, our unit descriptions were like two sentences. Tell them to go to the meetings. We thought we were doing something at two sentences. Yeah. You know. Now they want hot leaks in every spot in the, inside the magazine that they can take them right to the state. Yeah. Hot leaks. Hot leaks. Hot leaks. Hot leaks. Onyx pins. Yeah. Where do I camp? Well, exactly. All the migration corridors. Drop pins.

You know, I mean, this, this, I mean. Lots changed for sure. Lots changed. We've had technology changes like crazy. And, and of course we have to adapt and change as well. You know, I mean, every business you want there to be a barrier of entry, right? Like you want to make sure you're, you're up to snuff. You're, you're not leaving anything that people want out there. If you're, if there's a need, you want to fill it. That's a, that's a normal thing to do as a, as a business that wants to maintain a market share. And so we're just very aggressive here. Like you're not, you're not going to find more aggressive guys. There's no question about it. And, and then the guys that we hire, we don't, we don't take it lightly. We have the best of the best and they're very dedicated. And so we just, we just awesome. You know, you don't want to, you don't want to, you know, sink a lot of time in

as somebody that's not going to be here for life. And so Logan, don't be going anywhere.

No, no pressure. So anyway, and that's a, so Adam and I and John have basic, basically been cranking forward, you know, let's call it mid 2000, 2003 to five ish. And, um, just, just working our guts out in every facet of it. Adam and I have booked hunts extensively. Um, you've done, done every part of it. We've actually, we have a licensed application service. We've, we've done everything from, you know, start it, develop a guy's initial file, get him in, in on board, going through what he wants to do in life, short term, midterm, longterm strategies, making good decisions. We're spending his money. We're telling him where to spend his money as far as gaining points and applying across the West. And so we don't take that lightly. It's, it's very expensive over the course of time. And if, and if he's happy and understands the value in that and understands that we have

his best interest in mind, then we've got a longterm client. The minute we steer him wrong, he's short term and, and telling the world that we're not worth, uh, you know, spending the money with. And so this is something, uh, I mean, you know, the hunting industry, uh, you know, they're very particular, uh, somewhat judgmental, just need to, you know, it's, it's a small industry. And, uh, and so we do our best to, to have a great reputation and to take care of our people and it's customer service. You know, nowadays it's one thing to publish odds. You can, you can publish draw odds. There's easy ways to do that. Just like you said, you can go on the state websites and look at it and stuff, but there's, there's the taken at next level or the next 10 levels of, of customer service and really internalizing and, and spewing that out to customers and being able to do it in an efficient

manner on the fly. We'll have guys call in and take us through five States in one phone call. You kind of got to know a few things. And so I think that's what 20, 25, 30 years in the industry does here at Epic Outdoors for sure. Well, that's the, the, the difference between now and back then is that back then that was the only place to get that kind of information, you know, and it was, it was more basic information then. And now it's like a full service help you out with, uh, your strategy in each different state, what you're looking for. Um, and now there are a bunch of different companies that are offering this, but there are big differences between those companies. And huge. I've, I've participated in a couple of them where you kind of, you know, what, what is it that you're looking for? Well, I want to kill a mature buck.

And the next thing I know, you know, they're, they're putting you in for something. And, and when you, when you took the time to dig into it, you found out they're putting you in for a tag that you're never going, maybe 20 years from now, you might draw, right. You know? And I've got friends that are still, you know, doing that with a few of these, with a few of these companies. And I'm like, man, you've been doing that for a decade and you haven't drawn a darn thing. What are they putting you in for? Well, I'm not sure. You know, I told them what I wanted way back when. And once they dig into it, they find out that man, you know, nobody's looked at what they've done. They've just put them straight into the same thing every, every year, regardless of point creep, regardless of changes. And it sounds like with you guys, your experience is much deeper than that.

And there's a lot more customer service that's put into it. Is that correct? Yeah. I mean, they're, they're hiring us to do a job for them, whether they be, whether they be a regular subscriber of Epic Outdoors and get the magazine and want to call in and they do their own applications and they want your input on how they should apply and where they should apply and what units they should apply for. Or, or they're actually hiring you as a licensed application service. They're paying you not just, we don't view it as they're just paying us to get that job done. Cause it's, it's easy to get somebody applied. You can throw them all in for, you know, the best of the best and you know, you got the job done. But really the goal is to get guys on hunts. That's really what the goal is. And we, we have to say it all the time.

While we don't have a magic wand because you hire us as an app service or you join us, as a, as a, as a membership based organization, we got the magic wand for you that I, I can assure you that over the course of a year and multiple years, you're going to find out information or angles or slants or find out things that you wouldn't otherwise to be able to get you drawn either sooner or in a, in a better place suited for you. Or yeah, we frankly will tell people based on your goals and strategy. Exactly. And, or we'll, we'll, we'll be frank with you and say, Hey, based on what you've told us, you're wasting your money doing this state in this state. Uh, you, you know, you're so far behind, uh, and you want to hunt, you know, species X next year, cut that one out, pour it, pour it into another state.

So maybe the a hundred, $150 you're spending with us a year, you just save that by crossing out, you know, some, some uninformed or maybe just routine applications you've been doing just kind of on a pipe dream. So yeah, we really pride ourselves on that using our years of expertise to try to customize an approach for each individual. And, uh, it's getting harder and harder, even in the 20, 25 years we've been doing it. You mentioned point creep, you mentioned well-established point systems. I mean, we've lived through those 20, 25 years of point systems and it's a different world today. We can sold a new guy today different than we did 15, 20 years ago. Right. And, and with the growth and expansion of the hunting industry, just since, you know, COVID really hit, you're seeing more and more hunters looking to not only get in and become a hunter,

whether that's firearm archery, whatever it is, but you're seeing more guys want those bigger adventure hunts or, you know, the guy back East wanting to go West and just go on his first elk hunt or a mule deer hunt, or, you know, just get into another Avenue and get out of state. Yeah, we have that. And, and that's fine. There's, that's the one thing here. I mean, we deal with applicants of all types and levels. We deal with the first time guys and we've got a lot of clients that quite frankly are deep in points and they're not, they're not wanting to use 25, even 30 points. If you can believe that's where we're at now, you know, and they're not, and this is their one shot at this particular species with this particular state or whatever. And so they're looking to us like, is this the right year? Is this the right year for me? And, and what do you mean?

Moisture and how's a winter kill and so many different variables. Yeah. And maybe sheep, maybe you would take a tag anytime you can get one. Maybe that's an easy answer, but maybe it's, it's, you know, 30 points for antelope even if you can believe it. I mean, sometimes that's what it's taken. And so anyway, there's, yeah, there's just, there's a lot that's changed over the course of time. And, and then we're also dealing with the first time guys saying, is it even, is it, is it worth it? And, and, you know, our, our response might be, it is if you're willing to do the, this many species or whatever, gain points across the board, but maybe it's not just for sheep alone in this particular state, you know, who knows? But what we try to do is just save the money that 30 years is going to cost you and find an outfitter. And maybe that's the way to go or buy a landowner tag.

If you can find something, depending on the species. Right. And so you've got to do a little bit of everything. You got to help a guy gain points and maybe he's got a short-term plan and getting a general tag or whatever, something that allows him to get in the field right now. And then may, or maybe it's, it's, you know, I've got more of a midterm or long-term strategy. And then will you get me, you know, help me get on a, on a hunt in the meantime with a guaranteed tag with an outfitter or semi-guided landowner tag or whatever. So you've got to be well-versed and that's in Western big game. And that's the one thing we've had, we've had a ton of opportunity to branch out. You know, of course, people want to partner or whatever and, or bring it up or whatever. Do you guys do anything, you know, overseas or, or fishing or upland game or whatever.

And we have just stuck to what we really know. And that is Western big game. That's it. Western big game, Canada, Alaska, Mexico. So, you know, we're not going to ever, we don't have any plans of ever doing it. And even though you could say, well, you know, there's the world's big and, and, you know, the American dream is giant business and always main huge growth. And, and where, how can we take it, take it the next 14 levels financially or size wise or any of that. And that's just not who we are. We're Western big game. And, and if, and if we stay right at where we're at right now, we're happy. We want to, we want to have pride in who we are. We want to take pride in the business and, and treating people right. And, and this is where our heart is. This Western big game, deer, elk, sheep, goat, moose, bison. I mean, this is where our heart is.

Right. And are you guys, you really specialize in the entire West, don't you? Yeah. The entire West. Right. Are there, is there anything east of say Colorado that you guys do at all? Like some of the States like Iowa or anything like that with white tails? Yeah. Kansas, Iowa, a little bit in the Dakotas, but that's about it. I mean, they've got, we all know, you got Arkansas, you got, New England States to have moose draws, Pennsylvania out, Kentucky out. You got some of those there, but for, for a lot of us out here, I mean, you know, maybe like the Easterners, those make sense because they're a close drive to them, but we stick to the stuff. So we add, we add Iowa and Kansas because for a lot of Western big game hunters, they're some of the closest for us to go to, even though we got them in Wyoming and Colorado and Idaho, but from a, I guess maybe the next level white tail,

those two States probably the closest for us. So yeah, we cover those as well. Right. Right. I still maintain Kansas is going downhill and it's not worth applying for. Throwing a personal spin out there.

Oh, well, it's funny. Jason, Jason mentioned earlier that there's no degree available for something like this, but it's funny. I've always said that even just trying to get familiar with the process in one state, it literally feels to me like you're going through this process and it's almost like having to get a degree in just to learn the one state. You know what I mean? Oh yeah. And it, it's funny. Like here, I, you know, I've spent most of my life here in Colorado and you know, I've got four kids, uh, three boys, all of them did a lot of hunting with me. Um, all four of them enjoys, they, they, they all four enjoy hunting. Um, but really I've only got one who is into it deep enough to where he's going to figure this out. You know, he's going to be putting in for his own things. He's going to take the time to figure it out.

But the other three, I don't know that any three of any of them will ever take the time to look into it because it is a lot. It is a lot to learn. You know what I mean? And when you're trying to do that and I've, I've been doing this for quite some time, kind of managing my own, um, uh, applications and my own, uh, uh, strategies for these different states. And I can tell you right now, I don't do it in all of the states, but just keeping up with the ones that I'm familiar with is very difficult. And a few years ago, I actually forgot on, just got busy and lost all my points in the state of Wyoming because I didn't realize if you miss that, that draw two years in a row, you lose all your points. They, they took six points from me for every species. And I called there and, you know, basically it was like, there's bound to be a way that I can pay to get my points back. Nope.

There's no contingency plan. If you accidentally miss two years in a row, they're gone. And if there was a way, if there was a way to take your money, they would, they would take, they like your money, non-resident money for sure. But they're right. That's in print somewhere. And they probably showed you where it was in print, right? Yeah, absolutely. But I, you know, I guess my point is the value of, of finding a good service like yours. Why don't you explain that value to people? Because I think it might go over some people's head. Well, I guess to boil it down, I guess if we're, you know, we're talking about what it is we produce, we produce a magazine. We've talked about that. That's basically a deliverable that we deliver nine months of the year. And from December through June, that's got to be monthly because these states are coming one after another from that timeframe.

And you can't go every other, yeah, you can't go every other month or quarterly or something like that and get something timely. Or you're going to end up printing something that's last year's information, let's send it out and hopefully nothing changes. Well, we don't work that way. We're, we're, we're working with this year's stuff every single time before it leaves our office to the printer. And otherwise you're, you're putting out like Jason alluded. If you're putting out bad information or something, you lose credibility. The only reason for people to come to us is we maybe make it a little bit more packaged, easy. And we tell people every month, don't get too overwhelmed by the West every month. Open the magazine that month and say, what's on the docket this month? What's, what's open.

It's usually the states that are going to close that month or the month after and, and boil it down. Is this for me or not? I contend, and we talk about this a lot that just as much as you're going to get benefit from how to apply, where to apply and all that, and get your money's worth out of a service like ours. But you're also going to learn where you don't want to and where you, where you're going to waste money based on your personal criteria. And you know, this, this, this day and age, you can fill up your truck for 150 bucks. I mean, 150 bucks a year is, is, I don't want to say it's nothing, but you know what I'm trying to talk about. You can save 150 bucks by check undoing one species in Wyoming and save $150 because it's not worth your time. Maybe the moose or the sheep point chase that, but some of the changes have gone on there.

So, you know, the statistics, it's, it's a magazine, but it's, it's statistic driven based on drying odds, kill statistics, break down every species in a timely manner for you to make informed decisions based on you. And we, we give our take on it. We give our take. Yeah. There's that human element that Adam's talking about as far as our take where we, you know, that it's one thing to have all the numbers in front of you, but what do those numbers mean? Yeah. We give our take. Yeah. That's exactly right. Interpret it. You get flooded with everything. Yeah. Kind of interpret it, so to speak to, to give you a jumpstart. What, what's common is people are overwhelmed the first couple of years. And then as they get it throughout the years, then they know what to expect. And all they need to do, like you've alluded is keep up with the changes every, every, every year, because let's face it.

Some years you go through four years, there's not a lot of change in the last couple of years. There's some States make some giant changes that really affect or should affect how you apply moving forward. Um, we have, we have programs, you know, with book and hunts with outfitters. After you draw your tags, we have programs called a Epic member database. If you draw a tag and another Epic outdoors members had that same tag in the past and you want to talk to somebody, let's say you're more of a self-guided, you know, hunter, you want to talk to other members that have drawn that same tag in the past so that, you know, you can exchange notes, camping locations, where'd you find game, all those types of things. Call us. We'll send you, get, get that out to you. You'll go on that list, maybe talk to somebody down in the future as well.

Um, you know, that's awesome and invaluable just in itself. Yeah. So it's well, well worth the price of admission for that alone on one hunt and, you know, and like Adam's talking about, we can save you 150 bucks and just maybe one visit. And, and, and like we've always touted from the beginning of time is, is you, if you teach me something significant, I'm, I'm pulling my wallet out. It's worth it. You know what I mean? If you just teach me something. Yeah. Yeah. All of us. Yeah. Whether it be something. Information is huge. It's huge. It's huge. And so anyway, and, and you can't, you can't stress it enough. It's kind of, it's kind of everything. And we're watching stuff, even Utah general. I mean, some of the stuff that you wouldn't think is monumental. It kind of is. We have some big deer. There's big potential. And we've seen huge tag cuts and different things.

And we've watched how tag cuts affect quality over the course of time. It's one thing to just say, well, you kill less and so you have bigger deer. But there's way more to it within that as, as population adjustments happen with the, with long-term short-term droughts, whatever, as well as, you know, the moisture receiving this year and what that's going to help or look like in the next few years. And, and we're looking at the proposed tag numbers already for Utah and, and analyzing in our own minds what this means. There's a couple of these general units. We were shocked, kind of a shock and awe that they were going to actually cut tags in a, in a specific area. And we're just like, man, that's actually ready for an increase. This is going to be the next best, you know, general in, in the state. And, and those kinds of things. That age class is going to allow it to grow. Yeah.

I mean, they're, they're actually doing great numbers wise, quality wise. They're doing great and they're actually going to cut tags one more time. I mean, we're just looking at these things on the, and because we are trained to find all the little differences and nuances and, and how does, and interpret that into a hunting experience. It's what, you know, how does this tag cut in, you know, internalizing tag cuts, dates and, and whatever into this is going to equal this kind of a hunting experience three years from now. And so by the way, client A or whoever friend or whoever, you need to be gaining a point in with that in mind. But in the next two years, you know, how are we going to get you out in the field? There's so many moving parts are hundreds of moving parts. And we make a, a living of, of, uh, internalizing those and, and coming up with options for clients

and, and hunters, friends, ourselves. I mean, we're consulting ourselves this morning every day. There's not a day that goes by that we aren't consulting ourselves saying, yeah, but what about this? And what about that? Even teasing each other. I love, I love to try to spend Jason's bonus points. I love it. And I love spending Adam's money. We're friends for, he doesn't, he doesn't let me spend them much, but I like to give him ideas, teasing. Hey, I had a couple of key numbers from, from your social or date of birth. I'd get this taken care of right now. He's got them, but, but we tease each other. Like even, even like some of the, you know, muzzleloader, uh, thing, you know, opportunities up there in Montana for deer. I mean, they've got a late muzzleloader season. Adam loves to tease me about stuff like that. Well, it's new. It's something new to talk about.

And it's a, they, they added that heritage season last year in Montana. And, you know, for some people you're like old fashioned muzzleloaders, open site, all that. No thanks. And for others, you're thinking December, the hunt already goes long enough to the end of November up there. Maybe that allows you, there's, there's a weird place that certain animals move out that are never been hunted. And, you know, and I contend that local knowledge, somebody, many people maybe have been waiting for that time in history. And if it didn't happen last year, they're going to capitalize on it here real quick. And so, but there's things like that that happen in all of the Western states. And we want to have and try to acquire what you call quote local knowledge as best as we can, even though we're not locals. You know what I mean?

We, we, we're trying to learn, you know, stuff that takes the locals 10 or 15 years. And, and we're trying to learn of those things too. Although nobody knows your backyard like you do. It's your backyard. But, but that's kind of what we try to do constantly. You know, I think to round out kind of one of those major services that we do, we talked about consulting. We've got five guys who consult every day, probably take 50 to 70 calls a day. And so that's, I mean, if you're just starting, then you just, you call up and you say, Hey, I've never hunted Colorado. Where should I start? Or it could be, Hey, I've got seven points in Nevada for these three species. Where should I, where should I be looking at my applications this year? And so it's very personalized. I'll be calling you guys separately after this. We can have a discussion.

They're going to bill you, Evan. They're going to bill you. If it saves me in the long run or it increases my chances at, you know, the quality of animal I'm looking at. Okay. If we have to talk about antlerless or cow elk or you hunts or something like that, we might really bill you.

Don't antelope punts or triple. We're not huge fans of dropping bombs on mom. So anyway.

John, back to what you said just a second ago, you mentioned somebody that was just starting out. One of my biggest questions for you is, let's say that somebody from Pennsylvania is listening to this podcast right now and they've been thinking about trying to get familiar with the Western. They don't even know where to start. If they call you up on the phone and say, Hey, I need to learn how to play this game. What do I need to do? Tell me what you're going, what advice you're going to give them. Well, and first of all, I wanted to hit on one thing that you said. I think the major thing that's hard to communicate to people who are maybe from the East and just starting out is hunting the West is all about getting tags and getting tags is a combination of like a lottery and like a financial portfolio. Those, those two concepts. Okay.

And you need to look not at what am I going to do this fall? You need to look at what am I going to do over the next 30 to 50 years? And so that's why we talk about developing a short-term, a medium and a long-term plan. I want to hunt sheep someday. Well, it's not going to happen in the next five years. It's not going to happen in the next 10 years, maybe, but I've got to think about it this year and get my plan started. And then the same thing for, let's say I want trophy elk and I, I want to, you know, a 350 plus bull, um, in, in the next five years. Well, there's certain things that I need to be doing to build my portfolio, to be able to increase my odds at winning the lottery and getting these tags. And so I think that's one of the hardest things, uh, to communicate to someone who's just starting out or who wants to venture out from the East and start coming West.

And that's where, where we can help. We answer the, the, the, the, the phone and say, okay, which States do you want or which species are you most interested in? And start giving them advice based on their specific situation. I mean, and if they're in for mule deer, say a guy's just calling about mule deer, we might say, well, you should be applying in Arizona, you know, Colorado, Nevada, Utah, Wyoming. And there can be, you know, and then you kind of go through those systems and whatnot, but then there's non-point States like say Idaho, we've killed some big deer in Idaho. Um, you know, and so there's, there's that. Are you, are you going to get on at the right time to be able to get in line? Right. And, and do you want to tag now? And, and what's our budget look like? Like what's your non-refundable application budget look like? And, and so we might throw that in.

Adam and I've both done very well in Idaho. We've, we hunted a numerous different units and, and are fans of hunting Idaho. But it's not necessarily a point state. And so, you know, he might be like, well, I'm full this year. I just want to, you know, start gaining points just so I can prepare down the road. Cause I know I'm going to want to do something and be like, okay, well, while you're interested in deer, you want to kill elk and, and maybe a sheep someday. Well, I guess, you know, yeah, I definitely interested in elk and sheep, I guess so, you know, cause it's very cheap to add that on. And so I'm like, okay, well, we're doing Arizona for deer. We can make the most of it with a few more bucks, very minimal non-refundable application add-ons. We can add, you know, elk and sheep and, and maybe Colorado we're doing elk and deer both,

you know, or something like that, as well as a Rocky mountain, bighorn or, or a Nevada cheap to add on. We're throwing those on Wyoming. No, we're not, not huge fans of starting out doing sheep up there. We are for maybe a deer elk and animal, but, but not the sheep and moose. And so, you know, there's things like that as we go through and it's very simple to kind of say why and do it and, and talk guys through it. And it's not as complicated. That process isn't as complicated as a guy might think what, when you're talking about knowing the ins and outs of all of those states we just talked about and knowing, you know, the different point systems intimately and what that means and internalizing it and deciding if that's, if it's good for you to start doing that or not. Yeah. You go learn that on your own. It's going to take you a minute and it's going to cost you a little bit.

It's going to take you a long time. Yeah. And so we can, in, in 15 minutes, you know, we can, we can set, we can set a guy on a basic path that makes sense financially. Yeah. Well, and back to your initial, I guess, hypothetical question. Most Easterners that are, that are new and want to hunt West, most of them don't start out and say, Hey, I want 200 inch mule deer and 350 plus bulls. Unfortunately, because if they did, we have a pretty frank discussion and say, well, that's pretty daunting. I mean, we all want that out here. We live out West and we don't, we don't get many of those types of tags. So we would, you know, normally they're saying, Hey, I just want to come out West and hunt, hunt something. Usually mule deer, elk, maybe antelope. And so we would naturally gravitate to the States. Like, like Jason said, maybe a Wyoming deer, elk and antelope, Colorado, you know, deer

and elk, maybe throw a New Mexico in there because there's no point system and it's a great elk state and you have, you're not late to the party. You should start that one. And then maybe work, work a little bit further in, you know, Utah, Nevada, Arizona, all in general sense are mid to long-term plans because the, the, the draw drawing odds and stuff like that. And then you have to explain that the, then you get into the relative upfront cost. They each make you buy a hunting license, you know, the buy-in, you start talking about budget. And so there's, there's a few low hanging fruit ones that you'd recommend to a guy right out of the bait that wants to go on a mule deer and elk, but you really have to ask the leading questions. Are you a bow hunter? If you're a bow hunter and you love elk, probably should start Montana. Grab some bonus points there.

Hunt the general every two to three years that you can get a tag and hunt the breaks units every five to six years. You know, it's pretty short turnarounds in the scheme of hunting the Western States for elk. If you're an archery elk hunter, if you're a rifle elk hunter, Montana's not as high on that. It takes longer to do that. So you go through that progression of what, what do you want to hunt? Do you think species wise, what weapons do you want to hunt with? And do you just want to come and kill and hunt animals for now, which, you know, just legal bucks and bulls. And then as they progress, you know, elevate the trophy criteria. So everybody's a little bit different, but you know, you try to customize and you try to paint a clear picture to them. It's gotten tougher to draw tags out West. There's no question.

And some people, when you explain to them, you know, what we've gone through on the podcast, their heads spin and like, well, I'm just going to stay with hunting whitetails in my own state and my two neighboring states and leave it at that. Well, and that's, maybe that's fine. And that's okay. But if you, if you, if you care at all, you're not, you know, it's just, you got to dive in. You can't quit. Yeah. You got to dive in. You can't quit before you get started. And like Adam's saying, every other year you can hunt. And even if you just start getting the points, like that's going to put you in a better place, even in three years to where you can revisit that conversation. Yeah. If you can't, if you don't want to take it all in right now, just like you said, just grab points, just grab a few points right now. Two or three states. You can't buy time.

If three, three, three points is three years. One hundred percent. And so just grab it. And then you can maybe down the road, you're going to want to use it. Um, anyway, Montana, you could grab a deer tag every other year, like Adam's saying, and run up there and, and maybe use that as your opportunity state for mule deer. Not necessarily known for giants. It's got a couple of units that produce a few. Um, but in the meantime, you're, you're applying, you're waiting for that special tag in say an Arizona or a, or maybe, maybe Colorado. We, we actually, you know, tell guys to, you know, use our Colorado, Colorado deer points every, you know, zero to five years. You can hunt it as often as you want if you do it right. And then, but maybe it's a Nevada cause they're tough to draw or Utah's tough to draw with

the exception of general deer and general deer you're hunting every, you know, two to five years, whatever, depending on, on season type weapon type and stuff. So, uh, as far as general and grabbing points for both general and limited entry and dedicated hunters. So like there's a, there's a lot going on and you can hunt pretty regular and then you can also save for something special because as you harvest a few of, you know, a few meal deer and elk and different things, your tastes are going to change a little bit too. You're going to become a little bit more picky. You're going to want to have a special experience down the road. And again, you can't buy time. So you need to start now.

Yeah. And well, it's funny. We kind of framed that for somebody that was coming from the East, but that it's not exclusive to them. I mean, if you're a 22 year old that is just starting to think about going out of state and you were from Colorado or from Utah or whatever, this is just as valuable to those guys as it is for somebody coming from the East. Now guys like in my situation that had been kind of, um, uh, managing their own strategy and managing their own process. And if I was to show you my spreadsheet and if everyone out there listening could see my spreadsheet that I maintain for this, you would understand what an overwhelming task it can be. Just to, just to keep track of how many points you've got, where and what opportunities there might be coming up. And, and without a publication like Epic outdoors or something like that, a lot of times you're

not going to know, you're not going to have any idea if there was a change that came along and I, boy, I, I've been doing it for a long time and I get lost in it frequently, frequently lost and, you know, make mistakes. Uh, I, I missed a point last year in a state that is going to cost me this year. Um, because I, uh, just in all the different applications that I'm trying to handle for myself, I made a mistake, you know? Um, what, what would you tell somebody like me that calls up and says, man, should I take a look at your service? Well, we, we do have a lot of people in your situation. Like Jason alluded, since we've been through this Western hunting application business, if you want to call it for so long, we've had a lot of people that have dealt with us for that period of time that have decades worth of points.

You may be in that category and there sometimes is a right and a wrong time to try to use those points. I know that sounds kind of weird because if you've waited 20 years, the natural reaction is I want to use, I want to go hunting this year. I've waited 20, 20 years, but dump them. But there are situations like, like drought out West or season dates that, that have been creeping or season dates have been creeping earlier and earlier and earlier. But in a year they're going to kick back seven days deeper into September for let's say archery elk. Yeah. And you're like, you can have it this year. Utah's a great one on that. Yeah. Arizona this year. Arizona this year did that. You can have it this year, but you're probably going to get it next year too. It's been dry. Next year they kick back. So that's the type of thing we give, we just give stuff to think about.

I went through that same scenario with a guy yesterday on his, he's, he's got 20, 26 or something, 26 elk points in Colorado, which sounds like, geez, what, why hadn't he drawn a tag by now? Well, there's a whole lot you can't draw in Colorado with 26 points as a non-resident, but, but he was torn between a rifle hunt, you know, like a, say 61 or a muzzleloader somewhere. And I said, Hey, I, you know, they got a five-year season or a five-year season structure. This year, September 9th is the earliest the muzzleloader starts next year. It kicks back five, five days to the 14th. And he's like, I was going to do it this year. And I'm like, if you don't have to go this year, you put that muzzleloader elk off one year, you're going to draw it this year or next year. The unity wanted it had like, took like 18 or 19 points. And he's like, that just changed my whole application.

I'm going to burn my deer this year and do the elk next year. Those are the types of things we can help you with. Now, sometimes people are hoarders with their points and, and, and it's true. We can't get guys to spend them sometimes. You don't want to get rid of them. Sometimes it's hard to get rid of them, but sometimes they miss the window. There's a lot of people for Colorado deer that we talked to still that have 20 plus points and they've, they've missed, they missed the window over the last 10 to 15 years. They've missed it. Yeah. And could have hunted some decent units four times, maybe even five, depending on where they were going to go and, and what method. But it's hard for them. It's hard for them to use them. Just like what Adam said. And it's really easy for us to spend them. Oh yeah. It's so easy.

And they're just like, really, you're just rolling that off your tongue, you know? And it's yeah. Yeah, we are. Cause we've seen it and we're, and we live it and we see it. And like Adam's saying, maybe, maybe those later season dates, maybe it's not, maybe it turns off dry that particular year and it's not good, but we're doing on the law of averages. On the law averages, you want to hunt the last half of September instead of the first half of September for elk. And so, you know, that's where those season dates come into, come into effect. We obviously can't predict the future. And is it going to be a minimal rut or whatever, you know, things like that. But you always try to put the variables at work for you. You know what I mean? And so if there's a season date you can choose, like Adam's saying, then you do that same thing with late hunts for, for deer.

Adam, you know, this, we had this window coming up of extra late season dates for Colorado. And so it was a, you know, for mule deer. And so it was a big deal to capitalize on that. If you're, if you were at all waiting for anything, this was what you were waiting for. And, and then now push forward to 2023, you know, not a, not a total dismal outlook, but, but just, just an outlook. You know what I mean? For, for Colorado deer. So, you know, I mean, we've been hunting them in the rut too long for, with too many tags and we've just seen a decrease in quality. But having said that, you know, first time all the way out to experienced hunters still should be hunting Colorado. We believe in hunting Colorado as often as you can. Uh, you know, it's just, it's a deer factory, but, but there has been a window of, of greatness that has come by and, and, uh, is a thing of the past, so to speak.

And so anyway, just those kinds of things are what, that's what we do. We met, that's, that's what we do full-time. And I think to button up your question on what can we do for you, we've talked about license application service, but if you're not familiar with, with what that does, it's sort of like someone doing your taxes or someone doing your, like a financial advisor doing all of your investing. And we take from A to Z any states that you want to do, and we go through and we develop a plan with you. And then we just take care of putting in your applications and you can be as involved or not involved as you want. We've got some people that are just so busy that, you know, they're missing points and, and things that don't get done. We take care, all of that out for you and you never missed a deadline and you never apply for the wrong unit.

You never, you know, draw a cow tag instead of a, a, a bull tag or something like that just by accident, because that's what we do full-time. And we've got a whole department that's, that they're just focused on you and your applications. Just like what John's saying with taxes is our accountant paid for himself. When I, when I first started having a, an accountant do my taxes, which, you know, when I was a kid, many years ago, he paid for himself like the first five minutes, you know what I mean? And he saved me the amount of money that it cost me. Plus tenfold maybe. And, and besides the fact that I hate doing taxes, I mean, I just flat hate it. You know, it's not my field. It's not my thing. I can't keep up on the changes. Maybe there's some, you know, nuances with it to really capitalize on some, whatever, some write-offs or

whatever that only somebody that makes a living doing it knows about or knows what's coming up. And that's, it's similar and it's unfortunate we have to classify hunting as a business, but it all reality. There's inflows, tags and opportunities, and there's outflows and, and it just is what it is. It's not, it's not necessarily super cheap to do, although there's some affordable hunting out there for sure. But you, you know, if you, if you want the results, then, then you got to treat it like you care about it, or at least work with somebody that cares about it and knows what they're doing. Yeah. That analogy that you just made between the tax situation, it is perfect. I mean, you hit the nail on the head. The, the savings that I get in gray hairs from the stress that I go through just going in

to do my own applications, like, uh, just trying to log on to my account with some of these things. I'm already angry by the time I figure out how to get logged on. Arizona portals are probably your favorite. Montana is a challenge. New Mexico is one of our favorites. I mean, anyway. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Danny be looking at like 15 points in Wyoming at this point. If, if he had. Jeez. Oh. Tearing off a scab right there. Jeez. Yes. Yes. And, you know, the, just preventing some of the mistakes like that, that happened. Like I said, that Wyoming one was a giant one of mine a while back. And then I had a point that I forgot to put in for last year that if I had put in for it, I would be 100% draw odds this year. And now I'm probably looking at like 25% draw odds. Yeah. Uh, instead of being able to plan on drawing my tag because of a mistake that I made.

And, you know, like, like we're saying, not only the stress of trying to go in there and, but also somebody having somebody who's familiar with the changes, because just like a CPA, I could, it's their job to keep up to date on what has changed and things like that. You guys are a CPA for the Western drawing process, you know, and that is a very, very good way to look at it. A very good way to look at it. And, you know, if you want to keep your hair from turning gray or losing it, like Adam must have been doing it on his own for a little while. Didn't buy taxes for too many years.

He's a fan of an accountant. Yeah. But no, I think too, is we're dealing with thousands of hunters. And so while we're consulting them, they're also hitting the field and then they're, and then they're calling back saying, Hey, you told me to go do this. And by the, and you know, there's that little pause you're hoping it's good. And then sure enough, you, you, you made all their hopes and dreams come true. And they tell you how it went and everything that they saw and a lot of those kinds of things. And so it's a constant information highway here. We're, I mean, on the flip side, we're also getting those reports back and we're being up. We're, we've kind of got a feel on what's new, what's hot with the changes that we're seeing.

Maybe these tag decreases, even if it was a slight decrease for the past three years, we're starting to see an uptick in quality because of the, the hunter reports are more favorable than they've ever been, for example. And we've actually seen that we could quantify that. I won't necessarily on the air, but we could quantify that in multiple instances. Adam and I talk about it all the time. And so, you know, there's, there's the one thing to understand the paperwork side of it. You know, that's, that's one part of it, but there's a huge intangible of, of keeping your pulse, keeping the pulse of what's going on out there and, and how things are looking in, in, in dozens and dozens of units of all species in all the Western states. It's, it's, it's monumental. It's huge. And you got to have a drive, a desire, a love for it to really care.

Cause a lot of times guys would call in and if you don't care, you're just onto the next guy. And you don't understand what this guy really told you. His report was amazing or whatever. And really might've solidified what you've been thinking or hoping or, or whatever might change in a particular unit area, region management strategy, how that affected things. I mean, there's like Adam saying lots of changes have been occurring recently. Lots and lots of changes, new season structure here in Utah for elk. And, and we're constantly saying, how is that going to affect things and what kind of tag numbers is that going to mean? And, and if that's two non-resident tags and one go to a max point holder and one will go on a random draw. And if there's only one, you know, even if you had high point totals, you could never expect to draw it because it's truly a random draw.

And so we need to steer this guy this way or that way. There's so much that goes into it. Well, I mean, just the pressure that's riding on you guys from that aspect too is, I mean, you've got guys that are entrusting. I mean, essentially they're hunting dreams with you and a lifelong pursuit in trying to get the points to go do something. It's something I don't envy. Well, yeah, there's a little bit of pressure sometimes when you do a decade's worth of points and expectations. And sometimes those types of individuals too have already over the last decade, a couple of decades, hunted a lot and killed a lot of great animals. And so their criteria even gets higher and higher. And that, that leads to what I talked about earlier.

Sometimes they're just so tied to their points that they want to draw it in the perfect year with the perfect rain, with the perfect dates, with the perfect full moon, with the perfect, you know, 12 sack lunches. And even then they could find a reason not to do it. Yeah. So there are some of those types of people too that are maybe difficult to please entirely. But, but we, we are pretty frank at times that when it's time, it's time. And we're big fans of try not to get too attached to your points and hunt more often. And, and that's, that's something over the last 10 years we've had to pretty much say, because you can't just simply say, I'm going to wait two, two decades to hunt every Western state or you're not going to hunt. Right. Some people lose interest or, or whatever, especially if you're young, you know, trying to take your kids hunting or something.

I mean, they can't hunt that infrequently. You got to get them out, but, but don't be afraid to fail with it. But do all you can to get everything lined up right. And then, all right, push the chips forward and go after it. Whether you do self-guided, whether you get an outfitter, just go hunt your guts out. There's no guarantee. This isn't a, you know, a 5% income fund, you know, savings account that's always there and it's always grows 5%. It's not a guarantee when you cash them in. But use, use your, use the best tools you have the year that you want to try to do it and go all in and go after it. But we're also not, we're not consulting on guys, to guys for, on things we haven't done ourselves. Adam and I and John literally have decades of points. I've, I've, I'm embarrassed to tell you how many animal points I have in Colorado right now. Okay. And so I'm just saying.

I'm in the same boat. Okay. 43. All right. Yeah. And I'm pushing them to the center, but I'm just saying, I'm just saying out loud is we, it's easier for, to consult when you've done it yourself. I've, I've spent decades of points and failed, come home with a tag and ate it. And so it's easy. I can tell a guy I did that. I did that. And I have as much intel or more than anybody I know besides Adam and John. I mean, we both work right here together side by side. So, and I've eaten tags. And so I'm living proof that you can make a quote bad decision. You could have a bad hunt, 20 or 25 points does not guarantee you a great hunt. And, but it gives you an opportunity. What Adam was saying a minute ago, it's a, it's a funny thing. This mentality that we all have, like if, if, if I've got 20 some odd points for antelope in Colorado, like you're talking about, Jason,

the thought of me burning those on a unit that takes three points, for some reason there's this barrier there. Oh, I can't, I can't do that. Well, it might be your best option. It might be. That three point unit. Probably should probably, you know. It might be me, not three, but yeah. I totally understand where you're going with that. You know, you know what I'm saying. I do. Ten, let's call it ten. Ten, and that's, that's very probable what's happening in my boat. But, but you know what those points bought me was the opportunity to cash them in when I dang well choose. Doesn't necessarily, I'm not trying to, a lot of guys will say, well, I got 20 points. I'm going to try to get one that takes 20 to 21 to make sure I get the most bang for my buck. Yeah. No, and, and, and, and then they don't draw because there's a little bit of point creep each year, generally speaking on average. And so.

Chasing. Yeah, or maybe there's some tag adjustments and there's two sides to drawing odds. There's number of applicants. There's also number of tags. And so those tags could have been adjusted and now you've missed your boat. Those 20 points or whatever, whatever case we're talking about. We have lots of points in lots of places. But those, those points guaranteed me an opportunity to pull the trigger when I choose. In some cases. Now, if we were talking Nevada sheep, no. I'm going to take a tag when I can. There's nothing guaranteed. But preference points, when we're talking about preference in Colorado, I have preference over the guy with 19 if I have 20. And so I kind of get to choose. I would have preference over that guy or the other hundreds of guys with less than 20, you know. And so anyway, so there's some places you can guarantee the tag. You can force the draw is what we call.

Force the draw. I'm going to force the draw. I have 10 deer points in Colorado. I'm applying for a five-point unit that normally takes five preference points. I'm going to force the draw. I know I'm going. I'm going to force the draw. I'm going to force the draw. Yeah, but you're wasting five points. Yeah, but I'm forcing the draw. I'm getting the tag. I get to choose when I'm going. You're the curve buster. Or maybe I learned something. Maybe I found an outfitter that's got a special lease. Maybe I have a buddy that went and left a giant. And now I get to capitalize on that. Yeah, but you're leaving five points on the table. Who cares? Yeah, I bought myself the gear. That's right. Going on good info. And I've been waiting for this. This is what I've been waiting for. And thankfully, I've got the points. Points gives you options. That's what we always say.

That's the one thing Adam and I have been talking about. There's this little, there's a theory out there that the point systems are terrible. They're useless. They're out of date. They're not working. It's taking more points than ever. And you should actually just quit applying and just buy your way through. Have you got a microphone in my office somewhere? Did we just talk about this game? Okay. All right. Well, nothing can be further from the truth. We talk about it all the time. And it's not, we're going to be in business as long as we take care of our clientele and continue to run the business the way we have. We're going to be in business no matter what. So it's not like we're trying to convince guys to play the draws. We have lots of guys that are convinced and are playing the draws.

So I'm not trying to tell the listeners out there that you should be doing it so that Epic Outdoors continues to do well. That's not the case. It's not the case. But the points and applications give you opportunities. They give you options. If you were to just go buy everything in life, you'd be less than satisfied in your Western big game hunting. Yeah. Most of us probably, yeah. There's a lot of states you can't even buy the Arizona, for instance. What are you going to buy in Arizona to hunt out? There's not even an outfit or landowner tag to be bought. Maybe the OGC. And we're on a headless bull. I don't want that. All right. Keep going. But you know what I'm trying to say. Yeah. Yeah. They are. It is daunting. And if you do the math, some people like to do the math. And if I just took that money and go, bought a hunt, I could do it. Okay. You could that one time.

If you do $2,000 a year, 10 years, you know, there's 20 grand. Okay. Over. There's two hunts or three hunts. Okay. Yeah. It's not going to sustain you through your whole hunting life. Probably that way. You're going to have to, and we all go through this period. And in our 20s, we're all new. We're either going to college and, you know, maybe, you know, 20s, 30s, we get married. We start maybe having kids. We only can do and bite off what we can do at a certain period in our life. But in general, if you're hardworking and apply yourself at a state a year or every three years until you finally you're doing, you got a portfolio going. And over time, you're going to have, you're going to get something from the draw systems, even from the random state. I mean, we've drawn Idaho and New Mexico, and they don't have point systems, but we don't draw that often.

Adam and I both killed 380 bulls on draw tags in New Mexico. Yeah. Just draw tags. But we don't plan on it. If you go buy a 380 bull, like, we've sold hunts for $30,000 to $40,000, and the guys are going to be killing most likely 360 bulls. You can't, how many years of applications is 40K? Would it take me to buy that hunt? And we've done it multiple times, 367 in New Mexico, two 380s, Adam's 380. Like, you know, Adam's big bull in Arizona. I mean, just a big bull here in Utah on draw tags. Our desert sheep, what's the desert sheep cost? We've both drawn, you know, Oregon sheep. I mean, and is it getting tougher? Yeah. Yeah, it's getting a little bit tougher. But there's certain things that you're not going to get if you don't apply, ever. And, you know, sheep are an example of that. You can't base a whole draw strategy out west on just drawn sheep tags today.

You've got to maybe add sheep in addition to the deer and elk in the states to get your most bang for the buck out of buying the hunting license in states like Nevada, Arizona, and others. But for 90, what, 99% of people, they're not going to go up or more. You're not going to be able to go buy a Rocky Mountain bighorn or a desert bighorn sheep hunt just from an outfitter, from a cost prohibitive standpoint. You're probably not. So drawing a tag for them is it. Or, you know, a mountain goat? Okay, maybe. Yeah, we'd have that conversation. You could afford it. You could go to Alaska or B.C. and go hunt a mountain goat sometime. But, you know, if you have some ambition, you can draw a tag somewhere in a western state. Most people only want maybe one or two goats in their life, and they've scratched that itch. I wanted to hunt a mountain goat.

You know, so if it's one or two in your life, you're probably fine to play a few states in the draws. Deer, elk, antelope, those things are just kind of all, I call them no-brainers because points gives you options. Your options can change. Opportunity comes up like Jason talked about. Now, sometimes a general season option will come up in Wyoming, and you're like, okay, I had seven points, but I didn't know what I was going to do, but I've got this general season option, whether it be through a buddy, a friend, or even an outfitter, that I can hunt 340 or 50 bulls with a general season tag. I'm just going to do that. Your points gave you that option to do that. So it's hard to say exclusively shut the door on all point systems. They're not worth it. There are some that have gotten very, very much more difficult,

and we're very frank about that in every magazine we write, especially these last two or three years, as we've seen some of these states make changes to their application processes and point distributions and non-resident allocations and stuff like that. You do have to adapt, and you may have to pull the plug, and there are people that are getting ornery right now with states like maybe Wyoming and that, think that they bought in for decades under one premise, and now the rules are being changed. And there is some of that feeling. I understand that. We do feel it and understand it. But, I mean, I guess you did have 20 years that you had your name in the hat trying to draw a sheep tag there, and it goes back to that principle. What's your other alternative to draw? Are you going to go drop 60, 80, 100, 150,000 to buy one? 150,000. No, for most people, no.

So you had 20 years that your name was in the hat for a sheep tag that you've got to pay for that. There's something you've got to pay for for that chance because when you do hit one, it'll change a guy's life. Yeah, like Grand Slams attainable or whatever. We've killed a number of big deer, too, over the years, and a lot of which are, you know, there's some affordable landowner tags out there, and we've killed some on that, but then a lot of draw tags, big deer, and we're talking deer, you know, Ponsacont tags are now bringing $70,000 plus for a Ponsacont deer tag. So just, I mean, you know, guys that are listening back east, maybe, I mean, it might be the first time they've heard these kind of figures, but go buy your way. Go buy a big deer, and you might have to buy that hunt five times to really be successful on a big deer. You know what I mean?

Just because you bought that hunt or booked that hunt. It's still a hunt. It's still a hunt. It's still a hunt. Who knows? You might have five days of bad weather or whatever. Normally, you're a five- to seven-day hunt, you know, with a so finite timeline and whatnot. And so, anyway, I don't know how else to put it. You just can't buy your way through Western big game hunting if you want a number of hunting opportunities.

You know, and there's short-term, mid-term, and long-term plans. You can hunt. You can hunt. If you want to hunt Colorado deer, you can do it this year, right now. You can apply and go. There's things you can do. There's tags you can even draw on a second choice and still gain a point. They're getting tougher and tougher. Those are actually getting tougher and kind of slimmer, as we speak, and whatnot, changing over time. But you can still do it. So, yeah, just something to think about. You know, we live for it, though. I mean, as you can tell. I mean, there's a lot of passion in this room and in this business. And we've seen everything from the start to the end, it feels like. I mean, the industry's changed a lot. Yeah. And we've had to adapt with it and change with it and grit our teeth when non-residents are discriminated against that much more.

And states are changing their systems and thinking we're getting too big a piece of their pie and whatnot. And so, you know, we're not being able to hunt wilderness units in Wyoming without the aid of an outfitter and things like that that we feel may be unfair. You just keep gritting your teeth. And we still have great experiences up there, you know. And we adapt and have opinions and podcast about them at times, you know. Well, and to interject just a little bit of sunshine, since we're talking to you guys, we probably have more archers that are going to listen to this. And if you are an archer, your opportunities are probably triple what everybody else's are or more. And you have special opportunities that are open to you with way better drawing odds. You can go through and draw more tags with less points than, you know, the normal guy. Lots of opportunity. Lots of opportunity.

Same theory, don't you think, Bronson? Yeah. You look at Colorado deer. I mean, what you can draw with two to three points archery, even as a non-resident. You could probably count, like, on two hands, the ones you can't draw. Yeah, one hand. Yeah, ten or more points one hand for archery. Two units, yeah. For deer. Yeah, so. Not elk, but deer. Yeah. Elk's a different story. But, yeah, a lot more opportunity hunts for archers and a lot longer seasons. And in many cases for elk, obviously, right in the September in the rut. So, there's a lot of things that we try to steer people. If they can hunt with multiple weapons, look at the angles to get you tags. Usually look at the angle that gives you the best drawing odds. You know, if that is archery in certain situations, sometimes that's, you know, maybe a muzzleload or a rifle because it's a bad season. But maybe it gets you drawn.

And Adam and I are big fans, and John, too, of applying, like, say, New Mexico. We're just, you know, it just kind of comes to mind. We love New Mexico for a number of reasons. But if you draw a tag, it's a free tag with the exception of, you know, the price of it. But as far as point-wise, you're not burning anything to get it. Draw it every year if you can. Let's go get something. You know, so there's December archery elk even. I mean, there's some unique opportunities down there. January archery deer, incredible trophy opportunities. Tough to draw some of those because people have caught on to the opportunity there. But what a great opportunity. And you're not, you can get crazy. They've got three choices, all of which matter. They'll go through one, two, three, and then go to the next applicant. So get creative. Grab a tag. Go hunt it. And let's say it was a bust.

Okay, well, you went out there and you had a great time. But you didn't burn any points. Price of the tag, no points. Yeah. You learned something. You probably became a better hunter. Something that I've been telling people for quite some time is that I would rather have an average unit that I'm intimately familiar with than a fantastic unit that I've never hunted before. So even if I got a chance to go scout it, things change by the time the season gets there. You know what I mean? And there is an argument to be made for, hey, draw what you can. Find something. Find something that you can draw. You can go back. Yeah. Back and back. Like four times over the next 20 years instead of just once. Yeah. Oh, yeah. True. And I can't tell you of the premium tags that I've drawn in my life, every single time that I've gone on that hunt, I've come out of it thinking if I could go again.

Yeah, exactly. Everybody thinks that. You know what I mean? Because you end the hunt wishing you, now I'm ready. Now I know what I should have known on day one. Finally. And that's why you book an outfitter or you get that member experience program that Adam was talking about originally that will send you a list of members who've hunted in the past. And they're not going to draw it again in the near future. And so they generally will help you. And it's huge. But you're right. You cannot beat local knowledge. And local knowledge comes with spending time in that particular unit. And if that's four or five times over like the 20-year time span you're talking about, then that's what it is. You can't beat that. And the confidence that it's kind of turnkey. I get to start where I left off. I know this is a great glassing knob or this or this or this.

And then the confidence that I'm going to keep pounding it. It's not a great hunt right now. But I know what I've seen in the past. I know there are deer here, even though we're not seeing them, whatever the case may be, so to speak, just for an example. Right. Right. Well, guys, we're getting on an hour and 15 minutes now. I'll probably need to start looking at wrapping it up. But how can guys – I love that analogy that you made earlier to a CPA. You guys are CPAs of the Western application process. You know, you're an accountant for that kind of thing. And to me, for somebody that's just trying to wrap their head around all this, even after listening to this podcast, I guarantee you that there's somebody sitting out there that was like, man, I'm still swimming. I don't understand it any better than I did before. How do guys get in touch with you? What's the best way to find you?

Well, we're kind of old-fashioned on the customer service. And one of the best ways is to call us. We'll always answer the phone, and you'll get somebody. It's not leave a message or, you know, take your place in line. You're going to get a live person, and you can talk to us directly. But you can call us at 435-263-0777. Also, you can visit our website, epicoutdoors.com. And we're more than happy to visit with you, let you know what we can do for you and how we can help. I mean, you talk about it's just good to talk to somebody sometimes. Even me in the office, when I'm going to do my applications, I like to talk it over with somebody and make sure that what I'm thinking is a good plan. We like to send John on our test runs. Yes, this is true. You know, John, I've been thinking. Hey, we've always wondered how long it would take somebody to hike this mountain divide from here to here.

Hey, my last elk hunt had paid off. Hey, there's got to be a guinea pig somewhere. It's fun stuff. Yeah, but anyway, epicoutdoors.com, 435-263-0777. Or they can email info, I-N-F-O, at epicoutdoors.com. And that comes to a couple of great gals up front, and then they send the emails out to us, depending on what they're needing. And so happy to help that way. Also listen to our podcast, the Epic Hunts podcast, Epic Outdoors podcast, out on all the platforms. And we're always talking about this kind of stuff. That's all we do. And so a lot of guys glean a lot. Some people say we talk too much on there and give away too many little tidbits and secrets. But, you know, it's hard to slow ourselves down, you know, when we get passionate. I mean, we'll be – Adam and I will be right in the state, and we're worked up over some obscure species in New Mexico or something,

and we're ready to go just because we've done a lot of research on it or whatever. Somebody that drew a cow moose in Colorado with only two bonus balls. Didn't even have their three. And I'm the one that said we're not a fan of dropping bombs on moms. But that did happen. I got going on it, and I'm like, gee, this is the most amazing meat on planet Earth. I think it's an awesome opportunity for somebody. And it is. It is. But, you know, back east, guys that are listening to this, I know you all have to kill a lot of does for every buck tag you get in some cases and whatnot. But, you know, here, you just – the mamas create the big boys, you know.

So, it's a good time. We appreciate you guys. It's just there's a lot. There's a lot going on when it comes to Western Big Game. And like you said, I mean, people – Danny, you mentioned, you know, people's heads are going to be spinning. And that's okay. Just don't quit. Give us a holler. We can get you started. And there's a couple of things you should be doing while you're learning and auguring through the process. And just buy it off, like we said, that monthly magazine this time of year. Just get that. One magazine is all you have to worry about roughly, especially if you're new and you're not balancing 20 points down here in Utah that I've got to be prepared to apply for in April versus everything that takes place prior to that. If you're new or just buy it off the states that we cover each month. That's all you have to deal with.

If it's not for you, turn the page, you know, put it on the coffee table, wait until the next one comes 28, 30 days later. All right, let's open up next and see if this is for me. Just try the little bits and pieces. And over time, you'll get the hang of it. It's not as overwhelming, just like anything. Once you do things a few times, you'll get more of the hang of it. Understand how states work. Understand Western vernacular. Understand what point creep and these weird things like that all mean. And, yeah, we're here to help. Thanks, you guys, for having us on. But I think, yeah, you can join. They're calling it a magazine, but it's important for you to understand. It's not a magazine. It is like a research report. Absolutely. That's what it is. Well, and you can call in at any point in time. And I think you can join on EpicOutdoors.com. And some guys are intimidated to call.

Like, my question's a dumb question. These guys are going to think I'm stupid. And I promise you, we don't think you're stupid, number one. Number two, there's not a question you can ask that we haven't been asked. You know, it's just we've been in this thing too many decades. And so, and it's fine. It's just part of our job. It's what we like to do, actually. And, anyway, we'll learn something from you, too. I promise. Whoever, you know, guys that join out there, there's a lot of guys with personal knowledge in their backyards. And all of it's interesting. It's all awesome. This hunting industry is awesome. And at Law Selected, give a shout-out to you guys at Hoyt. Yeah. For those that don't know, we've been partners for several years as far as we endorse your products. And you've been an advertiser with us for many years. We all shoot your bows. Killed some big bucks with your bows.

Big, big bucks. And bulls. Yeah. Some special animals. And the newer bows, man, just you guys have made some advancements in the last couple years that are just amazing. And so we just appreciate you guys. Well, we appreciate that, guys. Definitely. It's been fun the last couple years, you know, being more on the inside. You know, me coming from a pro shop and getting to see the ins and the outs and the little projects the engineers do and where they want to take things. So, you know, big things coming down the pipe. And, you know, definitely look forward to sharing those with everybody as we get further into this. Yeah. Well, guys, it's been fun having you on. We'll have to do it again one of these days. Thanks for all the information. Hope everybody enjoyed it. And we will catch you on one of the next ones. We'd like to thank all of our sponsors here at Epic Outdoors.

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