On this episode Adam and Jason sit down with the host of the Finding Backcountry Podcast Dustin Wittwer to talk about western Mule deer management and the Muleys Matter Movement. Dustin was one of the first supporters of Muleys Matter, especially after seeing the issues Mule deer face in his home state of Wyoming. Dustin is also the owner of Backpack Logistics, a company that helps you plan and pack meals for any hunting trip.

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00:00:01:05 –> 00:01:29:03
Anything to do with Western Big Games. Welcome to the Epic Outdoors Podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody. Jason Carter, Adam Bronson, and Logan coming at you from Southern Utah’s. Freaking cold out there. It’s staying near, what, 31 to 45 degrees, bro? It says 45. It feels 31. The windchill. Thermometers aren’t working yet. It’s colder now. It it is colder than crap. Shot to Justin’s gun today. We’re getting ready to go to Colorado. He’s smacking a thousand. No problem. So it’s super awesome. Anyway, kind of fun. Got, it’s a fun time of year. I mean, of course we’re wore out. Bronson, you feel like you had a long year? Yeah. Yeah, I do. Here we are. And then we’re not done coming on mid-November with a whole nother bunch to go. Yep. Actually been cranking on the December magazine and trying to get it done. As soon as soon as we’re done, Janet gives us the, okay, we gone. So anyway, today’s episode’s gonna be kind of interesting. Another podcaster, Dustin Whitworth. Backcountry. What is it? Backcountry, what is it, Logan? It’s back Country Finding, finding Back Country. I always kind of throws me for a loop because Backcountry’s about 300 yards truck. Well, has a different truck to most people. But he also has another company where he does the mills, which is like Back Country Logistics, logistics or something. So that’s company.

00:01:29:03 –> 00:03:01:07
And then he’s, then he’s, you know, does some of those food bins or those big, big old boxes. The snack packs. That’s what I meant. Yeah. Backpack Logistics. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, Lama Lama Logistics, a couple other businesses. Pretty good, dude. We’re butchering everything. But you know, he’s a good dude and he can take it. Anyway. Let’s give him a holler. I, I’m not, I know he wants to talk about a few different things. Definitely another monster connoisseur. He, he take, he takes it to a different level than I think even you and I do. Oh, the Monsters. Oh, I, well, yeah, he says he invented white monsters. All I know is I see a lot of, yeah. Taste testing going on. A lot of taste testing of a lot of weird flavors. It’s just an excuse to buy more energy drinks. All right, let’s give him a holler. Carter. I was just telling Bronson, I’ve got him on the phone here. I was just telling Bronson that you feel like that you invented White Monster and I think that’s a bunch of crap. Well, I, I wouldn’t say I invented it, but I definitely put it on the map. No, you know, Bronson kinda like Al Gore on the internet. I mean, I don’t know. But he’s, but hey, I, we fully acknowledge he, he says he was the first to acknowledge that Wyatt was the good one. He could have been. I’ve got receipts.

00:03:01:13 –> 00:04:05:15
I’ve got receipts. I’m sure I was here. Receipts for what? Okay. What does does that mean? We got, you got one, got Prime time here on the air today. Coach Prime. Yeah. Yeah. I, I kept my receipts from the first ones I ever had. Oh. So what does that mean? What does that mean? It just, it just means that I have proof. Well, our receipts are so old that they fade. It’s kinda when you guys bought ’em, you were still writing checks for ’em at the lens Market. Cedar, we, we still write checks. We paid cash. We didn’t have a credit. We didn’t have credit cards back. We write checks right now. Can you believe that you even write a check anymore? Yeah. I, I do once in a while. Yeah. Venmo. Venmo. We got Ven. Venmo. Mostly Venmo. We got Venmo. You could, what He’s trying to say, you could Venmo us a little cash. ’cause he was monster when Monster wasn’t cool that, well, that’s, that’s, he’s, he’s trying to say that the reason we drink him is ’cause of him. That’s what he’s trying to say. He doesn’t said it. Yeah, but he doesn’t have to. Yeah. ’cause I already know what he’s thinking. The real, the real debate. The only one that’s got a real leg to stand on is me and Ben. Because, you know, because why?

00:04:06:01 –> 00:05:15:23
Well, we’re the only ones that are willing to put our necks on the line with unbiased reviews of all the energy drinks out there. Yeah. I just wanna know. There’s too many nasty ones. I, I just, and I don’t have enough years in my life to have a bad tasting monster or energy drink. I only want good ones. There’s so many negative medical reviews that I just wanna know if you’re worried about meeting your maker and, and talking about how many kids you converted over to drinking white monsters. I don’t know. But I just had to do this blood work for like a life insurance thing. Right. And it’s, what, it’s cherry Perfect. Could be better. Every, everything’s cherry except this like, one thing. And it’s like, oh, this is directly tied to your liver. And I’m like, oh no. I’m like, I’m sure. I don’t know what it is, but I’m sure that dates back to all the monsters. It might, I don’t know. But I, I drink Monster and they go in and do a blood pressure test and they’re like, man, you got good blood pressure. Healthy as a horse. I know. I’m fine. I know, it’s fine. It’s good. It’s like a good blood solvent. Yeah. All right. Well, what do you, what are we, what are we talking about today, boss? This is your gig. This is my gig. But you’re recording it.

00:05:16:03 –> 00:06:26:17
Well, yeah, we’re recording it, but that doesn’t mean anything. Just your mules matter stuff, man. Oh, yeah. Like listen, I’m, I mean, I’m a I thought you were gonna talk about and things like that. Yeah. We can lead in. We can, should we talk about the survivability of having, of a llama versus a horse? Well, yeah. Would you rather, what would you rather have when you’re, if you’re back country guys. Yeah. You guys pretty much crapped all over that didn’t do it. Well, it just begged the question. They were just nothing but a liability. Which one of the Star Wars? This is a really rough question. Which one of the Star Wars? I think it was Empire Strike’s back right at the intro. He’s writing that thing. It looks like a llama, but it’s like a two-legged llama. And he like, has to kill it and climb inside of it to stay warm and survive in the snow. I mentioned that on the podcast. Remember? Oh, you did? Oh, I did. You could. ’cause they say if you could, you fit inside a LA car, could you, you can. You can’t. Okay, then, then they’re, then they’re useless. Can you can you does. No way. They’re useless. No, but I mentioned it. Horse, you can climb a horse. Exactly. And I mentioned it because like for moose or something in Alaska, like if you had to, you could do something weird like that.

00:06:26:19 –> 00:07:31:03
But I mean, it’s, it’s farfetched. Like this whole podcast so far, getting Farfetch. Have you even seen that? But you don’t go the Star Wars movie I’m talking about. I have, yeah. He cuts it up. His lifesaver at the guts go and he jumps inside and survives. Yeah. I couldn’t remember what the animal was called. So I was getting Yeah, I don’t, I couldn’t get it. That’s, I don’t, I just think you, you weren’t even alive. You wouldn’t even hug a llama for warmth. You wouldn’t even hug ’em. They’re wooly. What do you mean they hate they hate people. They look at you cross-eyed hate. If you, if you had one stuck in the snow though, you could shear it and then take all the wool and throw it your sleeping bag with you. Okay. Okay. Just saying Have electricity and, and shearers up there. Yeah, yeah. Or clippers of some sort. And like, you’re gonna think square enough to be like, I’m, I’m gonna, this thing right here saying, saying that the llamas were a liability at that point. Like, huge liability. It’s, it’s, that’s like, that’s like getting broke down on your side by side and then saying blaming the side by side is a liability. Well, A, it left you there. Yeah. B what are you gonna do with it now? Oh, this frigging thing. We wouldn’t have had a flat tire.

00:07:31:11 –> 00:08:54:04
A blown, you know, we wouldn’t have popped our, I’d have had a 200 inch sway bar on our Tacoma. If we had a problem. We wouldn’t be near as deep. We wouldn’t be near as deep without it. I, I agree with you Dustin. I agree with you. So anyway, it’s fine. So go ahead. We can just go ahead and do a little shameless plug for your llama’s business. Let’s do it. We listen. The llama business ain’t really a business anymore. Like we’ve, we’ve transitioned from You’re just doing it to, you’re just doing it to avoid paying taxes. Exactly. Yeah. All Well anyway, keep, keep going. Go ahead. Go ahead. Throw a couple in the pasture to keep green belt status. Exactly. Less, less homeowner tax. Hey, may, maybe you guys don’t understand too the price of the price of llamas nowadays. Oh, it’s probably profitable. Why would anyone be a cattle farmer, right? No. Like you can sell s for three to $9,000. What, what? Trained. Trained or green? Green broke. What, what are we talking about? Green. Green. Three to five off. Gee, off their, off their mom is yearlings. Yearling for three to five grand. Yep. Harder. Three. 3000. 3000. You don’t even have to feed ’em good. You can’t even, you can feed ’em plywood. You can Oh, you can feed ’em garbage. And they still look the same. Yeah. You can’t tell. You’ve underfed ’em, overfed ’em nothing.

00:08:54:04 –> 00:10:10:18
They’re just like bigger goats. Aren’t they like a bigger herd of goats? They kind, they kind are They’re kind of disgusting. What do you, no, you wanna do it? I’m out. I’m looking for an investor. Epic. We could do for an investor. Epic alamas. We could start with a, what do they call ’em? CREs or C Huh? CREs. What’s that? C We we could, what’s that? We could buy a crea off Dustin. Get our start. The epic lama business. What is a crea? Is that a type of llama? No, it’s baby. It’s a, it’s a baby. It’s a baby. What cries a lot? It’s what I, it, it’s spelled like cries or something like that. Okay. Anyway. Yeah. Wow. So all profitable. Profitable, but not profitable for IRSs purposes. On one hand it’s like, yeah, I’m trying to avoid Texas profit at some point it’s a hobby. And then you gotta move to Wyoming and find an accountant up there that’ll work with you all. All right. No, we, it’s, it’s not really, we’re not really hot and heavy renting them out anymore. We just, we just breed them and use them and then sell ’em as, you know, either year yearlings or train. Just gotcha. Kind of fun. I, I’ve known very little. What is a life expectancy of a good llama? Is it like a horse? Could you get 20 years outta one? Yeah. Yeah. You get 20 18, 20 years of packing. Okay. Wow.

00:10:12:05 –> 00:11:20:13
It’s, it’s a little, it’s a little different though. ’cause they can’t, they’re not really fully mature to like four or four and a half. Yeah. So are they So takes a minute, you’re, yeah. You’re only packing like half loads. Like what? You know when Finch was saying 80, 90 pounds, that’s on the big four and a half year old. So Yeah. You know, three, three and a half. He’s only packing maybe 30, 40 pounds, you know, would have a weird What’s a male in a, what’s a male? Is it called a stud? What’s a male llama called? A male? A boy? Just a male. Yeah. I don’t, boy girl. I actually dunno. Yeah. Okay. Well you called the baby a very unique name. A cri cri Well they call him cries. Creas. Yeah, CREAS. I did, I figured they had different names for the males and females, but, and I wouldn’t know that without Dustin. I’m, I’m sure he did. He posted, he had a crea or something and posted about it. And I was like, okay, I learned something today. I’m not, probably not. But he was way down. I was intrigued until a Carter tapped out and then I lost my investor. So I’m out. We can make a side deal. All right. So then what else you got going on? You, you got a day job. Of course you’re doing guns and whatnot, and then you’ve got this back country. Yeah.

00:11:20:13 –> 00:12:38:01
Back food box, backpack, backpack, logistics with a food box. Cool stuff. And that’s, that’s what I’m trying to push, right? I mean the, the, the listen, the meals is taken off, right? Like we doubled last year from the year before. Right? Wow. And so guys are buying these, you know, prepackaged, they, they, they get to build their entire day’s worth of food with us. Right. So I I inventory their breakfast, their lunch, their dinner, all their snacks, drink, you know, drink mixes. Right. The mountain ops and the wilderness athlete, crap like that. They’re instant coffees and they put a, you know, a 40 $50 day order in and they might do two, they might do 10, and then I box ’em up in a gallon bag and send it out to ’em. Right. Ready to roll. Right, right. Okay. Yeah. You send us a five pack, five days, sorry, five day meal kit from backpacking existence. So you’re giving away to the Muley matter initiative, a five day backpack meal kit. Yeah. Yeah. So like 250 bucks should cover ’em. Right. And that’s about the value. But they’ll, they’ll be able to go on and do five full days of food. You know, you figure 50 bucks a day is what you got. Yeah, that’s on the high. That’s on the high end. Really? It’s on a high calorie. You pick a freeze drive. I mean, just them alone are 15 bucks. Yeah. Yeah. They are.

00:12:38:09 –> 00:13:45:29
But then, but then we took over. So do you remember Cody Rich’s backcountry fuel box? Yes. So I bought, I bought the, basically just the assets and stuff. ’cause he had shut it down Okay. Shortly before. But he was getting out of that. So I bought all the assets and stuff from that and then kind of launched this trailblazer box, which is really cool. You actually, I got one from you and it was, it was awesome. Did a little video clip, but I never posted it. Sorry. Oh great. Wow. But it was cool. It was really cool. It was, yeah. And the idea, the idea there, you know, you can’t scratch much out of people for something like that. Right. It’s like magazine subscriptions. You gotta have tens of thousands to make it work. But it’s more or less just, I’m just pushing your other products. Exactly. Filtering them into the meals. ’cause that’s where I make money. Well, and you should, you’re providing a great service. So on that, do they kind of give you, you know, do you give them a whole menu and they just kind of pick some of the things they like? Or do you just do a random thing sampler, or how you doing it? No, it’s all dude, it’s all custom. You should jump on and look. It’s, it’s even got, like, as you’re building it, right?

00:13:46:02 –> 00:14:56:13
We’ve, we’ve inventoried I would say there’s very few guys that are like, dude, you’re not carrying something that I want. Right. We have a lot of the, you know, just the, the basics. Right. Right. But as they’re adding it, they’re custom building exactly what they want and it tallies it up on the side side as they’re putting it in their day of food. Oh, I see it. We got, we’re actually on your website right now. Yeah. We’re, we’re loading the calories as we speak. Yeah. See Green Belly oil peak refuel. It’s telling you your, all the options. Yep. And it’s showing you your weight, calories, calories per ounce. Little debut. That’s, that’s, that’s for Ben. Yeah. The cosmic brownie. Yeah. Did you do that for him? Is he the only one that’s ordered? Any of ’em? Hey, go to the, this is why I’m the, this is why I’m the energy drink guy. Go to the energy tab. Okay. Alright. There. It’s, and find white. Find White Monster. Monster, monster Energy. And then, oh, there’s only one that comes up is white. A 12 ounce. That doesn’t even, even, that doesn’t even get your heart rate up. You’re not even gonna offer any other flavors. You’re only white. There’s not even an option. You click it and it goes straight to what? But I guess he’s thinking back packing. You can’t take a 24 ounce.

00:14:56:23 –> 00:16:01:28
I mean, you could, but it’s, wait, Bronson, you, it reminds me of the first vehicles that were made. It reminds me of the first vehicles that you, you can have any color you want. As long as it’s black. Where’s why? Monster Energy wipe. That’s what you get. 12 ounce. This is good for you. I know this, it’s good. But I, listen, I can say with confidence, we’re the only backpack food company out there offered white monsters. No. They, the others realize it’s liability. ’cause it’s not healthy. You’re back backing with high blood pressure. All right, guy. This, yeah. So this is good. And I, I does this. There a lot of options. Options happen to Yeah, a lot of options right there. And probably does your order. It stores it. So if you go for a week, come home and want to go back and like, like Walmart. I hate going in Walmart. I do too. So I, I do my online Walmart. Pick it up to you. It save, it saves it. And a lot of my hunts, I buy very similar things. And so every week or two, if I need to go, I’d redo it. Does this save it like that? And you just go re redo the same thing if you like. Well, I’ll go back to your orders. Probably. That’s what I mean, your prior orders or something. Yeah, that’s what, yeah. Or do you have to start over?

00:16:02:21 –> 00:17:11:09
You’d probably have to go rebuild it. I don’t think we’re that advanced. Look at look though. He’s got it all vacuum packed. Oh yeah. I I knew that. There’s a day right there, but yeah, that’s, that’s great. It’s just a, you know what I mean, like drop downs. Yeah. Whoa. The guys, did you hear that? Was that the guy? Yeah. The guys like Carter that are like truck camping or horse horse guys. Right. They usually just leave the, leave the, they leave the dinners off. Right. And then they, they have their, you know, big dinner back at camp, but they we’re buying Dutch oven potatoes. Right. Hey, hey. You’d be surprised. I love that. You’d be surprised at how much I ate some of this crap you’re selling right here. Yeah. Yeah. Like during the day. You know, what’s so, so for example, there’s a PB and strawberry jelly sandwich kit. Okay. What do I get? Do I get the, the Togo cups for the peanut butter? Or how does that sandwich kit’s? So there’s a, there’s a product, there’s a product called Split. Maybe you’ve seen ’em at Walmart. Half jelly, half peanut, and they butter half peanut butter half jelly in a packet In you. In a packet. Squeeze it out onto your, onto your bagel. Okay. Okay. I like it. No, this is pretty handy. So anybody that’s interested, backpack logistics.com.

00:17:12:18 –> 00:18:28:18
But really, Dustin, we’re here to talk about what we got going on. Yeah. Meal matter. Yeah. Listen, I, Hey, I’m, I’m your biggest fan man. Like, I, I, I, I’m in my head. I was the first one to contact you guys and donate something. Right. It’s not much for sure. You were right outta just like the receipts for the White monster. I was early. I was early. No question about it. But no, I just listen. I, I, I think the whole thing’s interesting, man. I think there’s, there’s a almost, it’s almost created like a movement right. That I’m not sure a lot of people agreed with or understood. Right. And it, it taps into this whole, you know, this whole mindset going around. Like, we could get real deep into this aspect of it, but like, you know, there’s entire companies out there that are built off of selling the idea that you have to kill something on every single tag. Right. And that’s a problem, man. Like, and so it’s just, it, you know, that’s like the, the starting thesis here. And then you see all these, all these guys that have gotten behind this and you guys said, I think you got, you know, $50,000 or more probably at this point more. It’s, it’s like 65 now. Yeah. Yeah.

00:18:29:03 –> 00:19:40:17
I mean, it just, it goes to show that the, the mass majority, everyone isn’t on that camp of like, yeah, let’s, you know, let’s tip over something every I am deserved of a deer. Every single tag that I get, I don’t care the last day I’m gonna shoot something. And, you know, it’s been kind of interesting to see, you know, and, and, and I understand businesses don’t always, you know, they’re not there to promote each other’s things and stuff like that. But like, there’s a lot of influencers that haven’t said anything about this. Right. And there’s even been some that have spoken out against it. And I’m like, what is that saying about you and your, you know, your principles here is like, either, either what you work for a company that has to sell people some, an idea of killing something every single time you go hunting. Yeah. Or, well, you’re too insecure to not kill something every time you go out. I mean, it, it just, what, you know what I mean? Like, it’s been a real Yeah. You kind of mentioned though that, you know about the critics that there’re with an s and actually I’m not sure very. I know of two. Yeah, I know of one. Yeah. But I’m not sure I know of two. And, but even at that, I know there are two, right?

00:19:40:18 –> 00:20:55:23
If there’s a couple of guys saying it, there’s, there’s more that probably think it, I think in general that is natural. It’s human nature to be a little bit competitive, a little bit whatever, and think, well, why would they do it? It’d just be, you know, for their own self-interest, selfish promotion of, of Epic or whatever. And so this actually started, Dustin, we have plenty going on in our life, right? Like this actually started, didn’t need another project. We had a, well, we felt dire straight necessity, drought stricken deer in Nevada, Utah, Northern Arizona. And then the winter this last year. And then the winter started off. But we were fighting, if you remember Bronson, and you, I know you do. ’cause we talk about it daily. We were, we were at odds with the Division of Wildlife here in Utah. And we’re like, well, they’re gonna keep giving out these tags. 90 to 95% of the people at the RAC meeting, our regional advisory council here in southern Utah, got up. And, and in relation to the tag quotas, proposed, proposed increase increases for general seasons, an increase off of a year that we had one year of a major slash And then the next year they wanted to jump back up, right? So we’re like, why, why are we doing that? Well, in in their mind we were having hot an abnormal fawn survival.

00:20:56:16 –> 00:22:02:18
And we’re like, well, they’re, those are, they’re gonna be two points this year. That’s they’s like, chill out for a minute. We don’t have our populations back. We come off the nastiest drought ever. So Adam and I, and I mean, we were, it was born on a podcast, you know, basically I, I listened to that. I listened to that episode, I think. Yeah. And, and you know, Adam was like, something, something along the lines of basically we should just do this and da da da. And all of a sudden it was like, let’s do that. And, and, and it was, okay, go ahead. Issue your 3000 tags, your 2000 tags, whatever the case is, go ahead and do it. But with those tags, we can do what we want. We could kill, we could not kill. And we were also, that was a very clear, clear distinction maybe that we made. We wanted everybody to go out, hunt your guts out, hunt your guts out on whatever deer tag you had. And if you didn’t see what you wanted, just know in the back of your mind, if you don’t need to shoot a deer, which, you know, very few people have to, to meet, have to have the meat off of a, they use it, but they don’t have 85 pound yearling buck. Yeah. You know, and that’s a, that’s, that’s not the usable meat. You’re talking maybe 40 pounds, a usable meat.

00:22:02:24 –> 00:23:11:00
Very few people with what you have to spend to get a tag, your gas, everything that goes into it. You can, you can buy 40 pounds of hamburger pretty cheap. You know what I mean? So I’m just saying in reality, oh, I need the meat. I there’s cow elk for that. There’s a lot of things. So we were very clear, go, go hunt your guts out. Go hunt your guts out. But there’s an alternative just pulling a trigger. There’s nothing, there’s nothing that’s labeled you as a failure. It’s kinda like when you go fishing and you don’t catch your limit. That’s okay. That doesn’t matter. Yeah. I mean, some people have that thing. I didn’t get my limited ducks or my fish or, or I kill. But back in the day when our, when our Oh, I was, but back in the day when our dads were young, it was like, did you get your deer? You know what I mean? And that was kind of the mark of are you a real hunter? And we’re just, Hey, my li listen, my grandma Whitworth. Okay. I still remember when she made the comment, but way back when I was little kid about how great of a hunter grandpa was because he always came back with a deer. Right. He always came back with a deer. And that was the mark of a good hunter back then. Right. And, and that, that, that isn’t the mentality.

00:23:12:01 –> 00:24:18:05
I don’t like it. It is. But that was just like, I mean, grandpa Whittler grew up hunting for literal meat, you know? Well, and you probably were in the fifties through the seventies or whenever that was when they were three times the deer. We had fortune and a good age class. Yeah. And, and, and all but the age structure was awesome. Yeah. Had all ages, you know, we’re dealing with hunters being so good. It’s not a matter of if grandpa’s a good, good hunter, if Dustin’s a good hunter, or he’s got optics and a gun that makes him a good hunter. Even if you’re not a good hunter, hunter, Dustin, you got the equipment to make you successful. Yeah. You know what I’m saying? And so we’re just saying, Hey, you know, a little bit of self-control here, if you care that we’re in a dire straits in some places Yep. In some places. And so it’s, it was born off of that coupled with a winter kill and, and then game and fish is coming out. We have an 80% winter loss now we’re maybe even higher. We’re seeing, but yet we don’t have 80% tag cuts. And so we were like, why aren’t you cutting tags? Okay. So obviously this is a, a balancing act with, you know, with budgets. Budgets and whatever. Yeah. And so then we’re just like, all right, well go ahead and issue the tags.

00:24:18:05 –> 00:25:26:12
Maybe we get to choose as a hunting group, as an industry, what we do with those tags. It we’re fine to kill, hope everybody hunts and does the best they can, but maybe the last day you don’t smash a fork, you just smash one. Yeah. Listen, I’m, I, I’m the, I’m the poster child Carter. I, I, I had that two, the two B in New Mexico. And this has been Yeah. You know, years ago, eight or nine years or whatever. Yeah. Back when I was, when I was the guy that you’re targeting right now. Right. I went down there. You, you know the old potential of that unit. Oh yeah, sure. And it’s gone downhill. Right. And it was especially warm. We never got the winter. And so we didn’t see a mature buck. Right. For hunted from daylight to, you know, daylight to dark. As hard as we knew how to hunt for the five days that they give you. And guess what I did on the four and a half days in, I couldn’t take it anymore. You smashed it. And I, I dumped a two and a half year old four point with epic genetics. Like I, and you admitted it. And I think even your buddies gave you a little grief over like, I listened to that podcast. Yeah. Listen, why, why do you think you’ve never seen a picture of that? I’m not proud of it. Right.

00:25:26:22 –> 00:26:34:09
And so that was about the turning point in my life when I realized, I came to the realization of what mule’s matter is trying to, to, to show guys. Right. And that is like, I didn’t feel good about that. I didn’t need the meat. I was just doing it because I was a little insecure. Right. Like I was an insecure hunter that was like, frick man. Like I’m, there is something though that I’m, everybody, like every gotta kill something. Everybody likes to harvest something. It is, there’s something about you’re going to the range, you’re doing all that. You build the bullets. Maybe you’re a reloader. You’re wanting to know how an Aun performs, you know, versus the norms that Josh with just seeing it alled with fruition. Having it Yeah. Like finish, finish your whole I’m purpose while you’re out there, there, there’s something to that. And, and or maybe have young, young kids with you or a new newer hunter or whatever. All that makes sense. And all that goes into it. It all goes into it. But at the end of the day, if you don’t just have to say, did you get your deer? You know, and then I had to get, I had, I went to Colorado, I spent this amount of money, I have to have hooves up in the back of my truck going home to Utah. Yeah.

00:26:34:16 –> 00:27:49:16
You know, and so then it, from there, then everybody’s like, well what about, you know, what about New Mexico? Or what about Nevada? What about Idaho? What about Colorado? Like, and so then it just kind of gained some momentum. Yeah. And we, you know, we’ve done the best we can to try to keep maybe the intent of not diluting the prizes to the, you know, whatever, 25 states that have meals, I don’t know, 20 whatever, whatever it is to, to kind of what we are intended target, our concerns were to begin with. And we’ve maybe even, you could say broaden them, be bite beyond those states. But, but just try to keep the principle. It is. And you know, and honestly as this has evolved, we’ll probably keep doing it. But in, we all hope within five years we’ve haven’t had any more devastating winners. We’ve had more normal winter, normal precip years to where we’ve had consistent years of, of fawns. We know that this does not, this does not gonna grow. Deer populations not gonna, it’s not gonna fix our whole deer problem. We, we know that. We’re not, we’re not, we never purported to do that. Yeah. But, but while our bog numbers are low, it’s, but it’s what we can do. It’s what our buck numbers are low. Both because of populations being down and years of low recruitment until maybe the last year or two. It will save some bucks now.

00:27:49:19 –> 00:28:54:00
And hopefully in five, six years, it, it’s we’re, and we did, and we did a bombs on moms. So we can save some those. And the reason why, Dustin, again, this goes back to the DWR. We get, we have a few landowners here locally that’ll complain when they have 10 deer eating ’em outta house and home in the winter when they’re not growing anything. And so then they, they fill a need to go out and smash those dough. And, and so we’ve had this whole, and that really, we need a whole revamping of the landowner tag system to make it to where landowners want to see the deer on their property. And, and if it’s transferable tags and they were, they had some value, it could possibly fix all that. And there are some transferable tags, but not on the general. So we’re just saying there was those kind of things we’re like, okay, well go ahead and issue the dough tags, but maybe there’ll be a few less dough killed if people know that they’re gonna be possibly rewarded with a prize if they don’t harvest one. Because our populations are all time lows. It feels like. And pretty much everybody agrees with that. Why are we still issuing dough tags on rangeland, especially in some of these places. And Bron, you guys saw it, you guys witnessed it on Zion three weeks ago or whatever. Oh yeah.

00:28:54:15 –> 00:30:11:21
Land owners with a half a mile buffer off of their eight acre grass patch. Not even a bailing hay. And they’re, they’re out there smashing those, the, the migrating deer. I’m, I’m on public land clear down in the bottom of Zion. So, so those are things where you’re just like, really, we’re smashing dough that migrate onto your thing in place in October. We all agree the population’s a problem. Then on top of that, we’re talking about populations of bucks and a good age structure. So while Bronson’s talking about the fact that these saving buck tags is not necessarily gonna grow dear numbers, it does help with our overall age structure of bucks, which we feel like is abnormally low. Oh, it’s, and, and bucks in general especially. ’cause we’re not sure how those bucks are being counted. Are we? What what constitutes a, a buck right. In, in a, in a formula. And so anyway, the, those kind of things are, are what’s concerning. And so we address that. We address the limited draw the general and over the counter and the bombs on moms. There’s three different bins. It, it’s, yeah. Maybe gonna, you know, be proportionate for the tags that are submitted or whatever. Not gonna have an equal number of tags in every bend. ’cause probably not gonna be as many do tags. But what the alarm, the, the biggest problem, one of the bigger problems we had, Bronson is watching everybody.

00:30:11:21 –> 00:31:17:07
This isn’t just Adam and Jason’s deal or Epic’s deal. It’s watching the entire general public down here get up and voice their concern. And the rack went and voted against it. Yeah. They voted for the tag increase. They voted Yeah. The rack did. The public was 90 to 95%. Do not, do not increase our general season tags because you have one good farm crop gonna be two points this year. That’s literally what, that’s literally what happened. And so then we’re like, well what can we do? You know what, this is the only thing we can do. We, we don’t, we’re not the dw we’re the king of Utah or on the rack stick. We’re on the rack. Yeah. We’re not on the board. Well, and here’s, so here’s here, here’s my question for you guys. ’cause let, let’s play this out one step further, right? Because I’m the, the DW R’s gotta be careful what, what they, you know, they, they, they, I’m not sure they completely understand how this’s gonna work, right? So everybody, everybody looks at this on a one year basis and thinks, oh, we’re having a bad winter, Muley matter’s, gonna step in and help us here. But, but my question for you guys is at what point if we don’t have this mindset long term, right?

00:31:17:08 –> 00:32:27:15
If we don’t start putting more bucks and more mature bucks on the landscape, because the irony in the hunting world is that we’re losing hunters, right? We’re losing hunters. We’re losing hunters. And so, you know, they may be think, well if we issue more tags, maybe more people can be involved. Whatever this is, this is Rob’s, this is my same argument. This is, if they don’t have a good experience go, their argument is if we keep cutting tags, we aren’t gonna be able to continually recruit young hunters. Right. And, and that initially sounds Oh yeah, that makes sense. But I contend on the flip. Yeah. Oh, go ahead. The, the experience that these 12 to 16-year-old kids or 10 to 16, depending on the state, if you take them out there on a glorified drive in the mountains or a hiking trip and they don’t take them. If you take them out there day after day after day and they don’t see which is happening, that could be worse than if that kid never drew a tag and just had to wait a year. Because he is like, dad, I’m not going here for three years. We haven’t seen a three point in three years or report, let alone a four point. And the youth do and the youth do have a better chance to draw than we do. And we can also mentor our tags.

00:32:27:16 –> 00:33:24:21
So if, if a dad or mom or whoever really caress, the kids can wait a little bit, but they don’t have to. If they’ve got family involved, there’s other options, there’s other mechanisms to get ’em money. There’s other options and, and there’s cow elk and there’s a lot of stuff for that this day and age. I mean, my kids are out crushing the place. So my point is, is if the experience, and I’m not saying they have to kill a 25 inch four point when they’re 12 or 14 to be hooked under. I’m not, I didn’t do that. They need to see, they need to have some opportunities. The interaction, you know, maybe close call, maybe miss some, I mean, we all know some of the challenges that that face you taking 10 to 14-year-old kids at times, honey, it’s, it’s real. But if it’s just a repeated wake you up at four 30 in the morning, we drive around, we hike around and and never see any, there’s no reward for them to, then you’ve got abnormal school load, school workload for homework at night trying to make up for the time when you went out in the heels and didn’t see anything. And pretty soon they lose interest. And that’s what, that’s what our contention is. It’s a carrot.

00:33:24:25 –> 00:34:31:18
But when there isn’t a carrot big enough out there, don’t, doesn’t matter just giving them piece of paper to go out into the mountains, they can go into the mountains without that piece of paper. That’s right. Yeah. So I see, I, I grew up in Nevada, right. And, and you guys remember, I mean, I had what I would consider the picture perfect youth experience, right? Oh yeah. We, we grew up in, in the Nevada had a youth preference. You basically drew every year. And I was that kid. I was, I shot a young, it was, you could hunt all seasons, it was a three. Yeah. You could hunt all seasons. We, we only hunted the rifle, but like I shot my first buck was a little three point my next buck. I wanted, I was ready to, even at that point, I’m like, okay, I gotta get something a little bigger, right? Yeah. So I shot a three by four the next year and then the next year, you know, but in Nevada you had that opportunity and that ability to see enough deer back then that you could pass. Right? Even with a 12, 13, 14-year-old kid, we were passing deer up because, oh, I already shot a three point last year. I’m gonna get a one year older buck this year. Right. And, and I never killed anything at that age. I never killed anything over 170 inches or whatever.

00:34:31:20 –> 00:35:39:01
But, but the quality of the hunts allowed me to do that. Right? Yeah. But here, so here’s, here’s let, let me go one step further. ’cause the youth is one thing. I’m curious, at what point do you guys feel like the ma the adult hunters are going to get sick and tired of this, right? Yeah. We I I I understand that you and I Yeah. And not wanna take their kids. If they lose interest in honey, they’re not gonna take, their kids don’t even, they don’t even wanna take themselves, right? Yeah. At what point does this get so below average that it’s just like I’m, if you know, I can’t even go find 170 inch deer. I’ll go to like, and i’s killed. I’ll buy a, buy a boat and we’ll go do Lake Powell vacations first going hunting. You have boat. You have a boat. Well, I’m, I’m talking theoretical. Okay. I’m saying these people the way I have one too with Yeah. Go out with Travis Hobbs and, and pull in Lakers, you know, or whatever, like something go fishing or Yeah, we’re gonna ride horses to get whatever, just a hobby, a family hobby versus hunting. If if it’s, and yeah, then they can, we believe though, Adam and I believe that if there’s a, if the resource can handle it tags for everyone, oh, we we’re not trying to make a Henry’s out of Pine Valley or Zion, or That’s a misconception.

00:35:39:02 –> 00:36:42:12
Yeah. The, the, the, the Robbie Dening podcast, right? Where you guys kind of went back and forth and it was like, well, well, you know, Robbie’s, Robbie’s a little, you know, well, he’s, Hey, he’s just like us. He’s very opinionated in his own opinions. He, and he has some valid, he has some valid points. What he doesn’t wanna do is, and I, and I’m, and I guess I’ll speak for him too a little bit, but he’s very good at, at portraying his opinion and he’s done it. And I have a lot of respect for him. But what he doesn’t wanna do is if you give up OTC, you give it up forever. They never go back to OTC. And so it’s true. And I, and I understand that. And he would, he would rather hunt, maintain that o TC and, and hunt nice bucks or, but the potential for a nice buck than not have any potential at all because he didn’t get attacked. And so there’s some validity to that. I see that, you see that, you see the conundrum that we’ve created here. Right. Let’s circle back on this whole thing because we’ve now created a conundrum where everybody gets a tag, right? And everyone wants a big, a decent deer. And then you’ve got all these companies, right?

00:36:42:16 –> 00:37:51:24
I won’t name all of ’em, but you’ve got companies and, and more importantly, nowadays you’ve got the influencers and the social and the YouTubers and all the guys that are, you know, selling the apparel at Western hundred, whatever. And their whole entire business model, like their whole entire premise of people buying their stuff is based on getting a tag and killing a deer with it every single year. Well, and they all have logos that that’s a problem. They all have logos of big bucks. They’re not putting two points on their hats. You know what I’m saying? And so everybody to, for people and people are on social media to see the special stuff that gets taken. And so, you know, to, for people to say that they don’t care about trophies, just not the case. I think everybody being a man, you kind of are excited about the anomalies that get harvest. Not an older animal, bigger, mature old. Can’t tell me that. Big multiple eye guards. I mean, you want feel like you see a few of those die and, and we’re seeing less and less this year, Bronson no course. I mean, think about we can’t even think of a 210 inch or kill on the entire second season in the entire state of Colorado. We’ve heard of. We’ve heard of one. I mean, those are, that’s a problem. Yeah. You know, and so, and why is that?

00:37:51:24 –> 00:39:00:03
There’s a whole nother podcast that’s, you know, rut dates, you know, too many tags and, and all of these things. And so, and too many tags based off of, you know, our current technologies and things. So these are lots and lots of issues. I think this, this thing, this muley matter was just initiative to basically come when we have no control over tag numbers. The public had no say they proved that. Let’s try and we did increase tags. Let’s try to save some bucks while we’re trying to Yes. Grow them through Mother nature’s the best grower. No question. Grow populations through bombs on moms grow populations of, of from cutting the drought, not having a hard winter. Good solid mother nature kick in is gonna, is gonna grow populations. We know that, that, but in the interim, the live bucks or the live young bucks that we’re about to become two points, let’s, let’s try to save a few of those. Let’s manage ’em properly. That’s right. If otherwise, if we shouldn’t, if we don’t need to manage ’em, what, why do we have all these biologists and stuff? Let’s just turn ’em all into game wardens. I don’t know why it matters. If we just gonna give OTC always for the rest of our life, why do we, why do we need that? Why do we even need to radio call stuff? Why, why do we need any of that?

00:39:00:16 –> 00:40:18:21
If all you need is seven to eight bucks per hundred dose to breed ’em in November, December, just, just keep that up. Keep, if that’s biologically keep what what Yeah. What we keep hearing. That’s all you need to have a quote healthy or a enough reproductive success in a population, then yeah, you don’t need to spend, so now when we’ve got Bronson, this is interesting stuff and whittler, here we go. But now when you’ve got agencies and boards that don’t listen to the public, then all of a sudden you have really interesting ideas, proposals coming out for southern region. And you got, and now we’ve got, we’re faced with some crazy stuff, shortened seasons, interesting weapon types, which are basically back thirties and long bows. Open site 33rd locks and crap. This is actually out on the website. This is the rack process. There’s a rack meeting tonight and these things are being proposed. Okay. Why? Because they wouldn’t answer to the public’s cry for something needs to fix our deer honey. Less, less tags for a minute until our deer come back and, and we contend we’re in this wet little, you know, span of time. It’s awesome. We’re actually gonna grow some deer, bro. It’s about 14. No matter what they do, no matter what people do, we’re gonna see an influx of deer fons living, things like that. ’cause we’ve had a good 16 months, you know, or whatever. Yeah. Or two years.

00:40:18:21 –> 00:41:21:28
Hopefully that comes through going this next spring. But in the meantime, what can we do? This is all we can do. And, and this has nothing to do with Epic’s membership. This is, this is free to people except for the stamp to get the tag here. You go on on Monster on, or excuse me, monster MU’s, but Mely MU’s Matter website embedded in Epic Outdoors. ’cause somebody’s gotta do it. And so you do it, it’s cost against money. If you want to just, I mean Logan does a big part of his job, spent half his hours. I mean we’re doing all this, we’re doing the facilitate. Logan, how many hours you spent on on this? Most of them probably, yeah. 30 hours a week. Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean he’s joke, he’s open. You know, we, Jason and I open the mail, but a lot of times we had it to him and it’s when we’re got it up to here, he’s making sure they registered properly on side and we got a matter and getting, getting them, you know, make sure they meet the criteria. And we’re, we’re getting in donations still weekly. And so yeah, it’s, we’re, we’re not making a thing from this. Some people, oh, you’re just using this to promote yourselves. Epic Outdoors is name not in, isn’t Emes matter? And I we’re tied together, we hired Logan to not do this. I know that. Yeah.

00:41:22:01 –> 00:42:29:24
We have been to do a lot of other stuff, so, well listen, it’s, it’s, it’s, no, it’s, it’s no better, it’s no better than all the other companies. Most of which I was referring to are the problem hashtagging conservation, that they give 2% for conservation. Right? Well, and they’re using that to Okay. Lose their business. Right. And I’m not gonna, I can’t dive into that as much. ’cause I do, I I personally feel like at least they’re doing something Dustin. Like, I get it. I know what you’re saying. No, I, I know what you’re saying. That’s what I’m saying though, like, if, if a business, let’s even just call out Cabela’s or somebody. It’s so big. We don’t, we can’t hurt anybody’s feelings if they say a certain amount goes back to conversa conservation. Oh, that’s, I think that’s great. I think they should get some kudos for that. They should get some kudos. Epic outdoors, get some kudos. Is it gonna amount to any real dollar figure? Oh, well maybe it’ll be a grand of of, you know, a few memberships. I don’t know, Dustin. It’s not an, not even, it’s negligible. We don’t even think about that. That’s not even, it’s negligible. It’s not even a way out, a way out. If it, if this cost us some members because we are passionate about it, we probably still do I have it? I contend we’ve cost ourselves some members. Yeah.

00:42:29:24 –> 00:43:39:25
Because there’s a lot of people that want OTC tags. We have. And so, but we’re passionate about our opinion and I guess in this world and in this free enterprise system, our business, our idea we’re we’re hatching this and we have the right to every year as we see winners crush, drought come, whatever, evolve this a little bit different every year. Doesn’t have to have the exact same rules for every year. We answer emails daily. Do you brons ’em, answer an email today on Montana. Guy guy says, Montana’s dealt with droughts and winter loss. And of course our game agencies are issuing over-the-counter resident tags with rifle rut rifle in the road on Mule deer. Like please help us. He, he slightly critical. Y’all didn’t include Montana, but, but in reality he’s just saying keep keep us in mind in the future. We’re we’re up here fighting an uphill battle against our division and we have, and and we made some, had to make some lines in the sand somewhere. And that was part of the reason when you have a state that Elijah hunt five weeks in the Rutt or four weeks or whatever with a rifle not shooting a deer is not gonna do anything. It’s not. So we just decided we’re not gonna include that. The general tags up there. We actually, Dustin, we actually feel like we get along. You can call people our competitors and things like that.

00:43:39:25 –> 00:44:55:05
We actually feel like we get along with them. You realize like some of these businesses you would call our competitors are submitting tags to neely’s matter. Like we have the division wildlife employees submitting tags. Okay. So we do, we’ve we’ve got ’em seriously in here. We have, we have and and we, we want them. Okay. And, and actually through the grapevine I’ve heard they’re pretty, pretty optimistic about the program. Like we issued the tags. You all get to choose how to, you know, what to do with them. And kind of an ideal world really. That’s, they don’t want to tell people they have to shoot a four point, they don’t want to tell people what they have to use as a weapon. You know, maybe a single strand bow or, or a number 11 percussion cap or something. And so and so anyway, we appreciate that. We actually, we actually value our relationship. We’re a little critical because there are things, Bronson, there are irreconcilable differences when it comes to tag quotas, even within their own formulas. That’s the only thing. And I think, and Bronson was very vocal and went through all the formulas and, and and kind of used their own data and challenged of some of their tag quotas. And so that kind of frustrated some relationships and, and strained some relationships. But we don’t want that.

00:44:55:14 –> 00:45:57:12
We just want, we just want it to be heard and felt like that the public that stood is, is heard. And their point is, is there’s a lot of people that don’t come to these meetings that aren’t being represented. And and our point is, if they’re not coming to the meetings, they don’t deserve to be represented. They, they need to write in, they need to, they need to write what their opinion is otherwise, how do you know what the, what the, what the silent public wants. If 90% of the written and the oral comments, and you don’t have to go to ’em, you can write ’em in, are all in favor of not increasing the permits. That’s pretty straightforward. Yeah. You’re, you’re, you’re not an elected official, but in some case, in a way, you kind of are, you’re there to represent Yeah. There to represent you. Don’t take all the extremes and do the extremes all the time. And we know that has been done. But in this case you could argue that, that the extreme side of things, the Oh yeah, we’re gonna increase the tags. That was the extreme set. That was the five to 10% of the people that wanted that. We have people, Bronson and I both have people in our own neighborhoods, let’s call ’em neighborhoods live within 10 miles of us that have told me this was this last week multiples.

00:45:57:15 –> 00:47:13:17
It’s just interesting ’cause a lot of the hunts are coming to, you know, coming to an end. An end. Yeah. And so they said, I was so proud of my son, we went out and I’m like, there’s a two by three, you know, let’s, let’s harvest that deer, you know, dad, I really think I wanna put my tag in the mules matter. That deer’s gonna be bigger next year. And I’m just like, wow. It’s a whole mindset. And it takes years to create that mindset and, and you’re already seeing a little bit of result of people thinking twice, even kids. How about that? How cool is that? That’s really cool. You know, not that, not that, Hey son or daughter, you, we never want you to harvest. You gotta harvest. Right? Like it’s, it’s healthy for these kids to harvest stuff. It, it’s, oh, the whole experience is healthy, but it’s also healthy to have to show a little restraint when you feel like they need it. And, and when, when we have numbers off the charts, we’re cool. No problem. Yeah. You know what I mean? So, but that’s, and that’s exactly why though. I’m gonna have my, my apparel soon. Save a deer, shoot a cow elk. Right. Send it like absolutely. They can’t kill enough elk in Wyoming or almost any state. Lock in the sky with your arrows and your bullets. Like you cannot kill enough elk in in Wyoming. Wyoming, yeah.

00:47:13:17 –> 00:48:23:06
Wyoming. You guys are overpopulated generals. OTC for you. So what do they do? Force you to go kill more? Like what are they gonna do about it then yet they’re limiting non-residents. So it’s just, it’s a little interesting how they’re, they’re teaming at the seams, but they can’t figure out the non-resident elk quarters. They just have a problem with us up there. Yeah. You know, so, but there’s another thought. I’m just, I’m digressing, but what about, here’s some my brain’s turning. These are always dangerous moments. They are. But next year, let’s just say next year, if we have a similar type program, if you send in a unpinched deer tag and a picture of a punched cow elk tag, you’re, you get double points squared in that or something like that. Yes. Square. Square your points. Maybe the biggest prize goes to, you killed an elk and you saved a deer, kill the cow elk and save a deer. It could be serious. That’s what I’m saying. We could throw a four wheeler at that or something. I mean, geez. Yeah. Hey, you’re gonna have a lot. Carter, you might have to shoot your first cow out. No, I want, I can’t kill a mom, so I went out to, I, I want a little corner in your booth to sell my T-shirt. They’re so good. We’re taking your idea. They’re so good.

00:48:23:12 –> 00:49:34:07
You, you we’re, I went out to, I went out to Iowa, and so they give you a dough tag and a buck tag. They want you to kill a dough. Like they’re disappointed when you don’t kill a dough because dude, they’re trying to, they’re trying to grow crops to live, right? Like, it’s not, this is no joke. It’s not like white tail or prolific breeders too. They’re, they’re, I mean, they can get outta control. They’re grateful for CWD and Blue Tunnel, whatever else. They’re not really, they’re not really, but they are prolific. And so anyway, I teased Carter. I shot a buck. Yeah. I teased him. I said, Carter, well, your dough tags at the bottom. Didn’t you know, you have to kill your dough before your fucking, he looked at me like, crap was perfect for 0.2 seconds. You’d looked at me almost. I’m, I’m not gonna admit it, but it did cross my mind. I’m like, you’re what? And then you’re like, dude. And I’m like, so anyway, I shot a buck. And that story will come out later. It’s awesome. World-class experience, world class buck. And they’re like, okay, it’s time to shoot a dough. I, okay, what were, I have never killed a dve felt bad. Oh. You’d look at the other and be like, how do I gut this thing? Like, I don’t know. You know, the gutless method works on a dough D gut. Yeah, it does.

00:49:34:10 –> 00:50:36:06
But back there, they want you to gut it and then they’re gonna hang it and it’s gonna be Oh yeah, it is. It’s a, they don’t want you to put the guts in the What’s culture? They want you to drag it whole to your truck and then get it back at the barn. Get the side by side. Yeah. Anyway, I’m just like, I sat there in the tree. I’m like, you guys actually gone back in? Oh, I did. For a dough? No, for a coyote. I couldn’t do it a day and a half. And I’m on the road. I, I couldn’t do it. I, I can’t do it. Like, I don’t, I can’t do it. And it’s not that I’m, I’m looking down on people that do, like, you want to dough shoot a dough? You, they’re issuing tags, you know, put me in your freezer. That’s fine. It’s just when I was raised you, you cherish the those, and it was probably my dad. My dad instilling it in me because he’s always fighting for better populations. He worked for the Divi Division of Wildlife and felt like he was fighting the establishment. You know what I mean? He was always against the grain. And, and so then I was raised with that. And you just cherished your, do they, they built your bucks, you know?

00:50:36:21 –> 00:51:48:18
And so, anyway, there you have, speaking of bucks, I think everybody’s dying to know what mule deer have you killed this year? Yeah. No. Have you? I haven’t killed big. Oh, dear. Nothing. Now, didn’t you say what I, what I’ve chased is another story, and that’s not coming out on a podcast, which, which state? At least, no. Oh. How much time he got Bronson? I’ve spent some time, well, well, I just, I I heard spent some Bro Bron finally milked it outta you that you had like seven or eight er tags. Am I wrong? Oh, I didn’t, no, it’s, no, I got more, maybe lot. How many, how Let’s just, how many of them are over with? I’m, I’m, I’m counting myself. I’m gonna count. Well, you guys are counting that up. I’ll tell you how many, I have at least four. We’re done with, I’m grateful when they come to an end. You can quit putting gas in your truck, but until then, you’re trying to make good on something that’s just not gonna happen. I’m just, I’m so picky. What we’re, it just is what it is. And I enjoy being out there. And I wanna, I want to just be, just be shock and awe when you walk up to one, you just shock and awe, you know?

00:51:48:19 –> 00:53:01:21
And so for the rest of my life, it’ll, I’ll, I’ll be putting lots of un punch tags in file folders, and that’s what I do. I’m really good at that. Really good at that. Bronson killed a great buck smashed one right off the bat. That feels opening. Was an opening day. Feels like two years ago now. I mean, who does that? That’s been three months. Who? Well, it’s been three months and Utah, and I almost can’t remember. No, it Nevada actually Orry. But, but I mean, I’ve had some grinders after that. I’ve had a couple like Jason, so, and I’ve got a couple to go, which hopefully end great. But, but yeah. I mean, my average, my average for the year. Yeah. I hunted one day on one, but my average is still a week. Yeah. A week plus on my I bucks. The bucks I after are still alive. So I’m gonna become a professional shed hunter. I’m gonna get with Ben and try to figure out what kind of gear I need. Probably includes little Debbie’s that are on your website. Listen, I, I thought this year, just like every other year for the last three years or whatever, that I’d be able to pick up and snake a first come first serve in Nevada. Didn’t even get, didn’t even get one today. Did you listen, I saw I’ve seen two permits Yeah. In the three or four months or whatever it’s been.

00:53:01:24 –> 00:54:01:01
And I have a job where I sit at a computer when I’m working. Like when I’m in, when I’m in the office, I’m in a computer. So I have it running, running. Do you, do you clock out when you get on this? No. First come first serve website? No, it’s running right now. It’s been running this whole time. So you’re doing the Nevada, you’re doing the, you’re working on Nevada right now? Oh, all the time. Yeah. Well, the quota, the quota change in Nevada where it’s nonresident tag has to go to a non-resident. Tag. Tag has to go we to up. It’s like, yeah, I think I wa I’ve watched it for a total of like an hour all year. ’cause I just knew well, it’s a, it’s a waste of my, it’s a waste. Yeah. It’s a waste of time. I saw two, I’ve seen two permits in, I’ll bet you I don’t even know a hundred hours of sitting here watching it. Right. While I’m working on the side. But, but when you have two or three screens, you’ve just got one screen kind of churning in the background while you’re doing orders and whatever. Yep. Yep. Colorado. Colorado leftovers has been impossible. Right. It’s been tough too. It’s tough. The announced cell time has kind of made that really tough. It, it’s just happened.

00:54:01:01 –> 00:55:19:23
We knew guys would’ve done it, some of the guys in the office, but getting tags is tougher and tougher. And we sympathize with that. And I think that’s another reason. There might be, even, even, you know, Robbie, you, you brought, brought up Robbie. You know, Rob Robbie represents a good segment of the population out there. And so we, I value his opinions and whatnot. And he, they, their company has donated to, to Neely’s matter. So similar to you, similar to Travis Hobbs himself, not a company himself donated $500 cash. Like, and so it’s, it’s awesome. And these guys, it’s hard for them to see change, just like it is for us. We’ve seen a quality change and you know, as well as getting tougher and tougher to draw tags just like they are. And you know, of course up there where they live, they have a whole different set of circumstances they’re dealing with. We see it from our perspective. We’re, we’re fighting our battles down here. They’re fighting their battles up there. And so for, you know, what they’re saying and what their opinions are are, are valued. And maybe even, you know, we agree with some of that stuff. It’s just, yeah. Sometimes it’s hard for us to say, you know, we’ve had so much change since 21st century. Here we are. We do, we really think that OTC still makes sense. We went through it in our state in our lifetime.

00:55:19:23 –> 00:56:32:28
You know, we did, we went to regions, five regions, then we had to cut hunts down to five days long, you know, 20 years ago. And we saw a blurp in quality actually. Good. And we did. And then when we finally went to unit by unit, it was, it was tough. It was because we’d never done that before. It was tough. Can’t have everybody that has a general tag hunt in Pine Valley, so they had to break it up. No, that’s right. So, but, but I understand the, the two states really that remain, you know, the Wyoming and Idaho and, and, and at least Wyoming has been a fairly lower population base. Idaho hasn’t. They’re fighting bolstering populations of people. Yeah. And, and res people are moving in more residents and so they’re combating that. I don’t know how much that’s going on in Wyoming to the extent it is in Utah and Idaho, but, but you know, that’s a reality. You can’t just have everybody get attacked that wants one at some point. I don’t think that’s gonna work. And when is that? What’s gonna be the tipping point? Find out. Well, and you guys, and you live in Wyoming now, Dustin, you know, you’ve got Wyoming residents. They do not want to give up their deer tag. And so you see this huge winner kill bigger than bigger than anybody can. Quantifiable quantifiably bigger than anything they’ve ever seen. Okay.

00:56:33:09 –> 00:57:46:03
In, in record keeping times. And yet they have no way to combat that per se other than, you know, just an awareness of, of people saying, Hey, don’t, don’t just shoot the only buck you see ’cause it might be our breeder buck. You know what I mean? Yeah. Right. And so and so it’s causing game and fish agencies to look at their system to be able to combat that in the event of emergency. And so anyway, whatever. I understand it, I understand all of that, all of those issues. Change is hard. Yeah, it’s hard. Yeah. And I’m not even saying they should change. No, I’m not even saying Idaho should change any, any of that necessarily. MEE’s matter is one of those things that we can all agree upon no matter what you think about management, no matter where you live, is it’s, if you don’t have to have it, maybe value the resource enough to let it live. That’s all it. Well it’s, yeah. And it’s, it’s the only, it’s the only way that, that it all, it’s all sufficed. Right. The state still gets their money. Right. Because they get to sell the permits. Everybody gets to go out in the mountains and have their family deer hunt. Yep. Every, you know, it, it’s the only way is if that, you know, and maybe it’s 5% of us and maybe it’s 50%, who cares. Yeah. Right.

00:57:46:03 –> 00:58:59:28
But it’s, it’s the only way to move the needle besides the, the common sense things, right? More habitat and better fencing and the highways and all the stuff predator management and, you know, the obvious stuff we haven’t really talked about, but it’s, it’s really the best idea that I’ve heard that we, you know, grassroots movement that can change something right now, this year without anybody’s vote or anybody’s, you know, is just each individual choosing or not choosing to maybe make a change with their own tag. So that’s why I got behind it. I loved it. Well, and it, and it, and it, and it makes sense for all of us. It’s not, we’re trying not to be fractured as a hunting industry. There’s so many opinions on game management. We, we saw what we saw in our little southern region and, and then we, of course we hear the cries of everybody up north and, and sympathize with it and at times hunt Wyoming at times Hunt Northern Utah or whatever. And so it was something we could e everybody can get get behind and it has nothing to do. Let’s just go over a couple of things. You don’t have to be a member of Epic Outdoors. You don’t have to be a member. You would get on Muley matter on the Muley matter website and go to epic outdoors.com. It’s the first thing you see. Click on it and then go submit.

00:59:00:01 –> 01:00:04:17
You can go to your how to enter, click on that. Go choose your prizes. You gotta send your tag to us and then you’re gonna be in the draw. Okay. And there, and with that is some contact information. So we can call you some, some tags don’t have phone numbers on ’em. We need to be able to contact you and then select your prizes. The prizes we’re gonna divvy up based on percent of people that submit. So if there’s five dough tags, you can’t give 10 prizes in the dough, in the bombs on mom’s draw. Okay. So we’re gonna do it based off of percentage. So it’s evenly fair if, and that’s just across all, all the states that are being considered and the states are listed? They’re listed on there. Yep. So you got limited draw tags, you got general or over the counter tags and you got bombs on mom’s tags and the states. But if I’m like, if I’m a Wyoming, if I’m a Wyoming general tag, am I competing with only Wyoming general people for this? No, you’re competing against Arizona, Idaho, and Wyoming. All the general tags that are in that. Not non-resident Wyoming. ’cause we’re on a draw. You are Wyoming residents. Right, right, right, right. Non-resident Wyoming will be in the limited entry pile, which is probably gonna be, I don’t know. I don’t know yet.

01:00:04:24 –> 01:01:15:03
I don’t know if that’s bigger than the general or not, to be honest, I was no idea. But because of the Utah general being limited entry, it, that probably skews it more because we’re based in Utah, but I’m just guessing we’re just gonna try to proportion it, make the prizes proportionate it somewhat to the tag submitted. So this will be to some extent this. So percentage wise, this will be evenly fair. Not just targeting trophy hunters, limited draw hunters. We’re not just targeting general OTC buck tags. And we’re not just targeting antlerless hunters. It’s even three, three bins that are even percentage wise. So that’s how we don’t know how else to do it. We can adjust it for next year. That’s what we’re doing. We’ve, we wanna say thanks to everybody that’s participated. If there’s no participation, you feel like you’re the only one that feels this way. You know what I’m saying? But, but it’s been overwhelmingly not the case’s been, we’re knocking on the door of a thousand entries. You know, and of course this is when all of the, this is when all of the hunts are just ending. Oh yeah. People this month we got a lot, we got a lot of texts. Let’s go. I still gotta send, I still gotta send mine in. Yeah, yeah. The deadline’s December 1st. If we didn’t mention that by 5:00 PM December one, we have to have it in our office. Well, yes.

01:01:15:16 –> 01:02:11:27
The tag, unused tag. Yes. And that’s to promise that you’ll get in. Yes. And then what we’ve decided is it may take us five to six days to sort it all out. Yeah. If we get, if we get tags within that timeframe, and we can get you in the draw. We’re gonna get you in the draw. There’s a few hunts. We gotta draw the line somewhere right at the end of November. Yeah, there are. But to make sure you’re in, get it in by then. But if they come in December 2nd, we haven’t run the draw. You’re still gonna get in. It’s just we had to put a date on there. You have to put a date at some point. Okay. So, so there’s been a lot of questions like, well, my hunt ends right at the end and I do, if I first air it, will it get in? Yeah, it’s gonna get in, it’s gonna take us 5, 6, 6 days to, to, to get it ready to, to run the draw. I don’t even know what day December 1st is. So might be a Sunday. It’s a, it’s a Friday. It’s a Friday, so, alright. So anyway, probably the next Monday or Tuesday. And then there’s some rules on there and you know, entry forms, it has to be a physical tag. How, how do you do a, how do you put e tag, an ttag in the draw? You gonna put a photocopy in there?

01:02:12:05 –> 01:03:10:29
I mean, so these are, we just had to make our own rules and please understand that. Yeah. Basically we’re not trying to be not fair dedicate a hundred tags in Utah that you have to submit to the state to prove you didn’t harvest. They’re not counted. We excluded those because you also are incentivized not to shoot a deer or you can’t shoot three deer anyway. You can’t shoot three in Utah. Utah one has to be un punched. So we don’t wanna police that. We just decided that was a little muddy. So, and, and didn’t realize that’s Yeah. But we listen, if anyone, if anyone’s having the urge to complain, like these are the same people that complain about the free algorithm on the free platform or the free social media platform that, you know, doesn’t get ’em as many likes as they used to get on the free platform that gives them free. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Exposure three eyeballs. So Yeah, exactly. This is all just for a good cause and like, that’s all it is. We’re not trying to be unfair and, and, and, and we can revamp this in the future. There may be other states that elevate higher in our minds in, in two years than others that are cranking out deer like crazy.

01:03:11:15 –> 01:04:18:03
And we may drop a couple states, I hope we can drop a couple states that start cranking stuff, but there, there, and the, and the critic, the critic that you’re talking about there, Dustin, I mean, okay, you’re gonna have a little bit of that. You gotta expect it, I guess. But it did, it does frustrate a guy. I think based off, it was just based off inaccuracies. He, you know, assuming there wasn’t a, a bombs on mom’s bin, assuming it was just targeted to trophy hunting, you know, assuming that you had to be a member of Epic. I mean there was several assumptions and after three or four posts of that, at some point you gotta speak up and just say it’s not, it’s not necessarily the case. Yeah. And, you know, but, but, but no problem. I mean we’re fine. It’s not a big deal. We actually get along with everybody in the industry and, and are good with it and have other businesses submitting tags and it’s good, it’s fun. It’s all good. They’re not, not supporting our bottom line, that’s for sure. So, yeah. Well, I appreciate it, man. I think you guys have started to huge, you know, whatever you wanna call it, a movement or a grassroots movement or a almost a lifestyle idea, right? I’m gonna build, listen, I’m, I’m gonna build a brand on this, right?

01:04:18:06 –> 01:05:42:18
Like I’m, I’ll be the title sponsor next year and it’ll be on the premise of this whole, this whole feeling move. You’re gonna build a for-profit enterprise off of mule’s matter. That’s non-profit. Yes, absolutely. You’re, you’re that guy. I’m that guy. What, what was the slow, I mean, you’ve already trademarked it, I’m sure. So it doesn’t matter. What was it? Yeah, I’ve already got it. Save a deer. Kill a cow out. Yeah. Is that what it was? Save a deer, kill a cow kill elk. Or it doesn’t even need to put out cow would work. Beef. Beef, cow, elk. Yeah. Beef, whatever. Cow, moose, mutton. Yeah. Hey, my other one c my other crea, my other one that I’m working on, that I’m gonna, that I’ve already trademarked is, you know, you see the, you haven’t trademarked it. You’re just doing, you’re just posturing. You’re just posturing. You can’t, you can’t eat the horns right? Is what everybody says. Mine is. You can’t mount the meat. Right. Okay, well that, I dunno. It’s gonna take off like wildfire maybe. Oh, maybe, maybe. Yeah. Next year too. I’ve got, you should run all your ideas by us so we can help you filter the good and the bad. Here’s an idea, we’ll do it free doesn’t, we’ll do a lot of long cold. We, the prairie of wave won’t left, left un yourself. So we want you to succeed.

01:05:42:20 –> 01:07:01:04
Run ’em by us first boss before you dump major amounts of money into some of this garbage. Here’s an idea. Next year I’ve got a, we’ve got a three legged llama that got hurt in an accident. Oh boy. We’re gonna this money off that. Gonna make money off that. Is this a joke? Hey, there was a three legged llama once that, anyway, continue the story. Well that, that’s the story. We’re gonna throw him in the mules matter donation next year. Oh, some lucky, some lucky guy is gonna pass on a dough and boy be rewarded with a three legged llama. So whatever. Does it come with tack? They’ll keep the tack and sell. Sell the llama. No tack Tax. Tax extra. Oh, well we appreciate your support and yeah. And your donation and everybody else’s donation. I hope they’re, I hope their companies are wildly successful for supporting neely’s matter. It’s probably, yeah, it’s probably the last one. Last ma dedicated podcast we’re gonna have before the end of December, mainly because we’re all going other places for the next two weeks. We got Thanksgiving thrown in there as well. So Yep. As as mentioned, check out the website, epic outdoors.com or real these matters.com and you know, enter your tag, pick your prizes, send your tag in When that comes in, Logan marries your entry that you did online with your tag and it’s been received.

01:07:01:06 –> 01:08:16:06
You know what’s funny, Broon, we’ve had elk tags submitted, un punched elk tags and I want that should go against them ’cause we want those punched. Yeah, that’s a minus. Yeah, those, if you send an elk tag, you’re invalid for the next five years from mules matter. You’re banned for life. It was, it’s just people are just assuming, you know, obviously it’s just jump to some the tag. I think that punch tag, who knows, they could have just had some, Hey, send those guys in. If you don’t punch a tag, they draw prizes for it and that could have been how it was conveyed. Maybe their wife threw in the, the elk tag instead of the deer tag. I don’t know. But we have had elk tags. It’s pretty, pretty funny. No desert sheep tags. Well good times. Hey, appreciate you initiating this podcast. Of course. You know, there was a little banter on Instagram that, you know, somewhat initiated a conversation about it, but we’ve been on podcasts with you before and, and appreciate your support and it’s all good. So Yeah, I have What are you drinking? Come on. That’s a rhetorical question, dude. He did a double gulp. It’s not white. What do you No, it’s water or punch or is this of the, is this one of the wine punch? Is this one of the 226 that you’re still taste testing of all energy. Energy? Is this a new one?

01:08:16:22 –> 01:09:28:03
Listen, I had one. I had one once, some, some I have people bring them and send them to me. That’s how ridiculous this gets to review. And it was called like Rooster Booster or something like it was complete like garbage from overseas. Non FA approved. Yeah, it was, oh, not even close. Straight from Indonesia. No, sorry. Yep. Not even close. So it’s got ground up antler. Listen, the pro tip, as you guys know, the pro tip with energy drinks, the reason I can go so hard for so long on ’em is you have to supplement with water, you know? Yeah, yeah. It’s the guys who just pound ’em all day with no water. That’ll get you. Yeah. There you are. Dire they’re, you know, like too much caffeine. Yeah. You gotta, you gotta hydrate, you gotta drink, drink them and then drink something that really hydrates you afterwards. Yeah. Drink something that works. Yeah. Well all. Yeah. Hey, thanks for spending time sending your tech. You bet. Send us in your text. Yeah, it’s, it’s coming and luckily it’s just a general text. You don’t know where I’m hunting. You don’t have a clue. Yeah. Says GN on it. Yeah, you can hunt. We don’t care where you hunt, Dustin. Yeah. And, and everyone who sends in their limited entry tags, they can be assured that you guys aren’t gonna like post ’em or you’re not gonna look at No, come on.

01:09:28:04 –> 01:10:35:19
No, I mean it’s not, we won’t, I mean it’s a lot of the limited entries are, are hard to get tags. A two B, whatever, you know, there’s, they’re like legitimately tough to get tags. We’ve had some Arizona tags just sent in. Yeah. Like that. That’s all private. Like, that’s all private. So it’s not gonna just post everybody’s, you know, house location, location, won’t be shooting pictures of it. We’ve, we’ve, we’ve run plenty of raffles and, and had to be discreet with, you know, contact information and we make a living’s not gonna show a picture of the tag on applying people internet and are careful with their personal information. Yeah. This is all about just making sure they’re in the right bins and then when they get drawn, it’s a valid tag, a valid entry. It was in your name, somebody that saved a deer name, it was in your name. Yeah. And it wasn’t a photocopy. We’ve asked people if they can do photocopies. No, no. ’cause you could have copied that tag and then punched the tag on. I mean, there’s just no, you can’t, it doesn’t work. There’s certain things that just don’t, don’t work. And it’s, it’s just in the name of, of an, of keeping the integrity of a, a free draw with, i I will say over $50,000 in price. Yeah. If somebody did try to fraud the system, we would probably make ’em famous.

01:10:35:24 –> 01:11:53:21
Oh, we’d, what do they call it? Lamb based? Make ’em on the podcast. If some, something does happen, there’s ways to cheat. Right. Every system. Trust me, if that happens, it’s not gonna be pretty. Yeah. So it’s all good. Yeah. It’s all good boss. Okay. Hey, thanks. Well pre appreciate you guys. Go jump on the, jump on the mealy matter if you’ve got a tag or even if you’re still hunting one, you know, the last week or two of the month here, think about, think about, you know, just, just not for once, just not then send your, send your tag in. Make it matter to you. Basically it matter. All right, guy, go, go have a glass of water. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. All right. See ya. See ya. Bye. Bye. All right everybody. That was an awesome podcast. We appreciate Dustin and his support. Dustin, what we’re like, we said, you know, there’s a lot of, lot of different management techniques and styles. Everybody’s got an opinion. This is one we can all agree on. And anyway, Muley matter. If you’re, if you have an un punched deer tag and it fits the criteria that’s on the website, limited draw tags, say in Arizona, Colorado, west of I 25, Idaho, Nevada, New Mexico, Utah, Wyoming, or you have a general over the counter tag in Arizona, Idaho, or Wyoming residents or a bombs on moms.

01:11:53:21 –> 01:13:00:21
Any atler list tag in Arizona, Colorado, Idaho, Nevada, New Mexico, Utah, or Wyoming that are mule deer tags. Consider sending them in. It’s free of charge. You’re gonna be in for some awesome prizes and we appreciate you and your support of the mu matter movement. Just a little something we can do. We, of course, we can voice our opinions, go to all the meetings in the different states, things like that. But this is just a little something extra and it’s kind of a fun way to give away some prizes and we’ve, we sure appreciate the donors and whatnot out there. Also, appreciate the participants. We’ve gotten a lot of entries and we’re gonna get a lot more, and it’s awesome. It just shows that we, there’s plenty of people that feel the same way. It’s o it’s okay to have unquenched deer tags. Doesn’t mean you’re a bad hunter. So anyway, actually, a good conservationist and a good sportsman. Appreciate you. Good luck in the hunts. There’s a few hunts coming down the pipe that are gonna be ending here shortly. We’re right here in the middle of November. The best time to hunt, mul in the rut. Good luck to everybody that’s going that’s in the field or going to be in the field. We, we hope you kill a great buck, but if you don’t, go to mely matter.com. All right. We’d like to thank all of our sponsors here at Epic Outdoors.

01:13:00:28 –> 01:14:16:19
For top of the line hunting, clothing, and apparel in every environment, visit under armour.com. We’d like to thank Under Armour for being our title sponsor and making this podcast happen. Visit our website epic outdoors.com for discount codes to Under Armour hunting apparel, handcrafted quality precision rifles from start to finish. Red Rock Precision is one of our sponsors and many of our staff users, red Rock rifles. Visit red Rock precision.com to find out more. If you’re in the market for a hunting property, our sponsor at St. James Sporting Properties specialize in premier hunting properties throughout the west. Check out available hunting properties at st james sporting properties.com. Good looking comfortable. Camo describes KU U, the new bush pants from KU U. Keep your legs comfortable while walking through the thorns and bristles. Visit ku u.com for sizing and prices. Kenna Trek makes great boots for any situation. Most sheet punters in the high rocky altitudes. Use these boots to keep their ankles in. Check on the rough terrain. Visit kenna trek.com to learn more. We at Epic Outdoors are a fierce firearms dealer and have many popular models in stock and ready to ship. Call us if you would like help deciding which options are right for you. Fierce long range Rifles are a great rifle and many of our employees here use them. Visit fierce arms.com to learn more. Triple S Polaris specializes in custom setup hunting side byside. They deliver right to your door nationwide.

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