EP 322: How to Master Muzzleloading with Jason Sebo and Tony Smotherman of CVA

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Hey everybody, Jason Carter, Adam Bronson, Devin Archibald. Of course, we've got Logan at the keyboard or whatever that is. Just making sure we're doing what we're supposed to do. Right, Logan? Trying my best. Keep you guys in line. Trying to micromanage Adam and I. How's that working out for you? It doesn't work out very well, but I give it my best.

Keep trying. Just don't try too hard. We might have to replace you. I'm just teasing. You're not going anywhere, Logan. We like you and appreciate you. You're going to worry his mom. Start talking to me. Well, you know what? I haven't seen her grace the doors of these offices for a while. Some of his family, I think, when Paulet gangs up on him, I think they reach out and say, Enough's enough. Enough is enough. Paulet takes it two steps too far. Yeah. He plays county favorites. He does. Dis favorites. He talks crap on everybody. How he's still walking without a leg broke is beyond me. I know. Exactly. I wouldn't want to be him. No. But anyway, he's not here to defend himself, so we're talking about it. Yeah, that's right. He's actually on vacation for the 14th time. I want the life of Paulet. All right. I'm just giving him grief because we can.

But anyway, this is kind of an interesting podcast. Of course, Bronson, we've been hunting with muzzleloaders since the day we were born. I think I was probably had a muzzleloader in one hand while they were changing my diaper. You know what I mean? Who's changing your diaper? Well, 14 people have claimed they've changed my diaper. Friends and family. They knew you when you were there. Well, it's kind of an inside joke here at the office. We've got guys out there, significant people in the Division of Wildlife or whoever, because my dad was in the Division of Wildlife saying, I remember Jason when he was, I changed his diaper on the green. No, he didn't. And now you're a grown man. I don't remember that. Now I'm a grown man. How many people have changed my diaper? Quit talking about my diapers. I'm 49 years old. That's right. Leave me alone.

But anyway, we have been shooting muzzleloaders since we were little kids. Well, when we were young blokes, they allowed us to hunt with muzzleloaders on the general tag. You could get a general. It was a dedicated hunter tag when you had a general tag. You'd hunt archery if you didn't kill, rifle if you didn't kill, and you could hunt that late muzzle, which now is a limited entry in all these units. That was like the normal muzzle. That was just to get burned. Now people are burning 14, 15 points for that. Yeah, and we had nothing what we have now. We had literally Woodstock Hawkins with percussions, round balls. I remember the MK85 when I was a little older. A little. The night MK85 kind of revolutionized. The white and the night. Yeah, I wasn't as into it. My brother Aaron was. He killed his very first deer with a ground ball.

I think you were messing with brass pens and maybe even a long. Well, we all had those. Carol. Carol Bow. Yeah. Made in Moab, Utah. Yeah. So you were more into the archery. I was into archery, but then muzzle, and of course, you know. Usually I didn't make it to the muzzleloader hunt. My favorite 30-06 with a straight eight Simmons. Probably why. By the time archery and rifle, we were shooting something. My grandpa hunted with a muzzleloader during the rifle. He was kind of the mountain man running. Oh, really? When he could. Made his own. Had leathers. Like those kits. So the season that says any legal weapon, we're all taking it to the max. He's going back 50 years. My dad would tell me when they were hunting, he knew when his dad shot, because if he missed, he'd hear. Whew.

Definitely a wobble. Wobbling round ball. Definitely a wobble. Yeah. It was kind of cool. Oh, good stuff. Well, we've come a long way in the world of muzzleloaders. So where are we going today? We've come a long ways. And so anyway, we've actually been working with CVA a little bit. And, you know, Devin, you can talk a little bit about it. I know you've dealt with them for years in the past on the business side, it seems like, a little bit. Yeah. I mean, they make some solid products. I've shot several models. I've got different ones for different states, and I haven't had one that has been a problem. I mean, they do what they're supposed to. And they're not, you know, like these rifles are 1,000 or more. You can pick one up for $300, $500. It's unbelievable. So I ended up getting, yeah. You can have one for three different states. You get some Northwest stuff.

That's my favorite about Bronson. Bronson has to have an Idaho model. He had to have a Utah model. He had to have a Colorado model. And then iron sight in Nevada, but take it to the max, whatever that means. Yeah, well, you can kind of use the same one in Colorado and Nevada, other than now you can use sabbats when you go to Nevada, when you have to use full bore stuff in Colorado. And you can use pellets if you want in Nevada. You lose powder. You can't in Colorado. But same gun, just different loads. And then you don't like to mess with when you get one set up, you don't want to mess with it. They can be finicky. So, no, I spent a lot of my early spring and early summer this year with the anticipation of Utah, you know, going to, you know, and Nevada, you know, hunting an open sight state and maybe having a red dot state for Utah. I kind of want to have a gun for each.

Well, and it's a natural to get new gear, right? We have new rigs. Like, I want to, it was just a natural to, for me, now I don't need this whatever. I have a, you know, custom rifle that's made for 600 plus yards. Well, red dotter and open sights only going to go so far. Yeah, you can. Right? And I'm actually kind of tired of the 12-pounder. My muzzle is no joke. I've got two of those. And they're okay if you're on a hunt that's, like, kind of close to the truck all the time, which some of ours are. But if you're doing a lot of hiking with it, man, they are tanks. I bought my son for Christmas or birthday. I can't even remember. Always hunting gear for everything. Anyway, ended up with a muzzleloader. And I, Devin and I were out at the range. All I had to do was just purge the round and make sure we clean it well, you know.

So I purged the round offhanded it, what, 200 yards, the dong, open sight, offhand. And I'm just like, we don't need a 12-pound rifle to go do what we're doing here. To do open sight, 100, 150, 200 yards. And Devin, he smashes his buck in Nevada, some ridiculous figure. 200, 150 or what? It was the perfect situation. So I went out against a dark green bush. Literally, yeah, next to almost a light green, like, white bush. And it was just a, you know, a brown body. It was perfect. But what I'm loving is that we're always looking for that odd season, usually dealing with archery and muzzleloader equipment, you know, where the drawing odds are palatable. You guys got some out-of-state tax this year, too. One thing I'd mention is they do make kits for some of these that you can't, it's like a Northwestern kit. You can put a different breech in. On the same frame.

On the same muzzleloader and go to Idaho. What? Yeah, they have kits. That'll change my life. Yeah. But I already have one of those muzzleloaders. No, but it would have changed your life. It would have, but now I already have the gun. You've got the gun. You're not touching for the next five years. Well, and it's fine. And I don't hunt, I've hunted Idaho once or twice. Yeah. Once, and then, yeah, I had a super tag one time. So technically, I had a muzzleloader with me. I was kind of scouting. But anyway. I've killed a lot of my bucks with a muzzleloader. Like, I like it. But I like it. Well, I guess you could say archery muzzle rifle. But I mean, you just, you want good deer. Sooner. That's another. I mean, there are late season hunts. But generally, yeah, September. Usually, a lot of states, Colorado, Utah, Nevada. You all get a hunt before the rifle hunt.

So if you don't, in Devin's case, in a lot of our cases, you end up chasing them hard with a bow, you kill them with a muzzleloader. Well, so Nevada's deer season, the best season is the muzzle season. Well, and the archery ends, like, September 9th. And the next day, the muzzleloader starts. Like, you just put it down. You go from scouting to killing. Anyway. It happens that way sometimes on a big deer. Let's get these guys on a call with us. Kind of go over the products and whatnot. And just maybe a little bit of their history. Learn what they've got going on. We appreciate our relationship with them. New regulations has caused new equipment. And, quite frankly, just kind of changed the landscape of what we got here product-wise. And it's extremely impressive. Very affordable. Yeah. And we're a dealer. And so here we go. It's pretty awesome.

Not as much of an investment to get one of these guns and get it set up shooting good with some of the states. You know, like I said, there's not very many you can use the scope anymore. I'm not counting. A lot of the whitetail states you can. We understand those are all kind of different. But as far as western states now, we're dealing with, like, Arizona. That's pretty much it. As far as using magnified scopes. It's like, it used to be, you know, three or four of them. Now, we're down to them. Yeah. Oh, geez. I don't like these new types. New Mexico, Utah. I like all the equipment. Well, and we're already, we're hearing about it. But part of it is, is I also like big animals. And so the better you get, the more. And I was just saying that we're already hearing from, you know, residents and maybe outfitters and that, some of the New Mexico benefits.

They're like feeling like they're seeing some better bulls already. Well, they know specific bulls that made it. Every outfitter knows specific bulls that made it that otherwise wouldn't have. That's, that's critical to me. You know what I mean? On the muzzleloader units that you now. That's just going to compound, too, as the years go on. 13, 15, 17, most notably. Yeah. And so, anyway, for elk. All right. Let's get to it. Let's give them a holler, see if they answer, and see what we can learn today. Okay.

Might not recognize my number.

Kevin, you there? Yeah, we're here. I'm here. How's it going, man? Good. How's it going, Jason? It's going. I got Tony here as well. We're just in my office down in Largeville, Georgia today. Wow. But it's hot down there. Hot loud. I can feel it being muggy from here. 100 degrees. 98% humidity. I can feel it here in Utah. That's terrible. You can probably hear the mosquitoes buzzing in the background. Oh, jeez. I'm never moving back. Yeah, you're not so long. Tell me the good things about Georgia. You get a nice change of seasons. There's an interstate that takes you north out of here. I like it. I like it. Close to Florida. Yeah, we got the Georgia Bulldogs if you're a college football fan. Okay, yeah. Well, yeah, SEC country. They're proud. They're coming out with their mascots already. Here we go. Oh, yeah. I heard it was SEC media day yesterday. I saw that all over the news.

Yeah, I hadn't really followed it too closely the last couple months, but I'll be neck deep in Georgia football here in about 30 days. Yeah, the big news is they got Oklahoma and Texas joining you guys this year. That's kind of a big buzz. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's definitely going to change the dynamics of the seasons going forward. That's for sure. Yeah, but this stuff means nothing to me. Well, Jason, hey. I spend a lot of time in my job. I'm still not seeing a reason to move out there. Well, all right. All right. Hey, Devin, who's on there with you? Is Jason here and who else? Yeah, Jason and Adam. Jason, Adam, and Devin. We're all here this morning. So, appreciate you guys making some time for us. It's awesome. You know, maybe before we start diving into products and whatnot, why don't we have you both introduce yourselves a little bit

and maybe the roles you have within CVA and your company and then, you know, talk about, you know, just current state of affairs in the company and maybe, you know, we'll just keep getting a product at the end. But here and manufacturing where it is, you know, Spain, however you guys want to lead that. But why don't we introduce you guys first? Okay. I guess I can go first. Jason Sebo, been with the company, gosh, going on 14, 15 years now. My title is Vice President of Sales and Brand Manager for what we call the CVA Division, which includes, obviously, CVA, but also Power Belt, Muzzle-Logging Bullets, Quake Industries, which is our claw sling, which is primarily what we're known for on the Quake side. And then Duracyte is our kind of our optics mounting hardware that we use primarily on CVA, scope packs, and that sort of thing. So that is my role.

I've been the VP now for over the CVA division for probably three, four years now. And just keep doing my thing. Gotcha. That's awesome. Yeah. All right. Well, let's see. Tony, maybe introduce yourself a little bit. Yeah, you bet. My name's Tony Smotheren. I've worked for the brand since 2009. My title currently is Head of Influencer Relations, which is basically a redneck term for politician. I have all the media side of things. So I handle bloggers, podcasters, YouTubers, TV show hosts, magazine owners, editors, publishers. Jeez. That sounds terrible. You know, the great thing about this is I kind of been all those at one time in my life. So it's very easy to work as a company man to work with these folks out there because I've stood in their shoes before. Yeah. So it's a very, very easy conversation for us to have.

So I handle all aspects of media here for the CVA brand and then subject matter expert for the muzzleloading side of things that we do. My background is 30 years in the muzzleloading industry. And that's kind of my specialty per se is the muzzleloading side of things in the hunting world. Wow. That's awesome. We got two of the top guys. Well, we've both been 14, 15 years. Sounds like you guys both been there roughly the same amount of time. So 30 years. Pretty close. Yeah. Things have come a ways for the past 30 years. Yeah. Bro, you know, technology touches everything that you and I use and feel every day. And, I mean, we're on a podcast talking to a phone and you guys are on some specialty mics on you guys' end out there. So technology touches everything and it also is transferred into the firearms manufacturing world too. Absolutely. So you guys, are you both in Georgia?

Educate maybe some folks about, you know, where you guys are based and why you're based where you're at. And then, you know, as far as the company level, why? And then, you know, maybe we'll tie into that and then move into some of the production side of guns before we then get into actual specifics of, you know, we're Western hunters, obviously. So, you know, what we tend to use and like and want might be slightly different than maybe what you guys sell the most of. Or an Eastern guy. Yeah. Exactly. But anyway. We're actually not even, I know there's different regulations depending on the state and stuff, but we've had, we've gone through a big change out here too. So that's why there's a lot of guys looking at maybe changing up things just a little bit. They don't want to change their long range setup, but so they'll buy something different for the new regs here in Utah or New Mexico.

So anyway, there's just a lot to learn on what's available now, you know, especially. Yeah, for sure. Yep. Yeah. So here in Georgia, we, it's BPI Outdoors is the, I guess the parent company or the umbrella for the CDA division was also includes Begar rifles. So we've got our sister brand Begar rifles that's, that's handled and managed by another, another team, not really a team, but another group of individuals here for the sales. Our marketing department handles all brands, but that, those are all the brands that are fall under the BPI Outdoors umbrella, which is located here in Lawrenceville, Georgia. And then you roll up from that, we actually are owned by a company called DCAR. DCAR is located in Northern Spain in what's called the Basque region, which is known for the, a very well-known area for firearms manufacturing, very high-end shotgun manufacturing.

And our DCAR facility just moved in within the last six months into a brand new state-of-the-art facility with, oh gosh, lines for production, lines, automatic lines for Cerakote, 3D printing. Gosh, we've got now, we started back when we started making our own barrels, specifically for CDA, Begar wasn't even around then. This is pre-2014 before Begar came on board, but we were making barrels for just our own consumption. And we had two barrel lines, oh gosh, probably 10, 15 years ago. And now that is, we have grown to have, now we have six barrel lines, which also includes, not only includes the rifling machines, but also we've got vertical honing machines to, to polish the bores prior to button rifling. We've got the stress relieving chambers to relieve the steel before they're machined, so we don't get any movement in the steel.

And then we've got, you know, tons and tons of CNC machines, you know, third multi-axis machines for actions, receivers, you know. So, you know, they have lines and lines of assembly and certain, what we call like silos, where we've got, you know, the muzzleloader silo that's got its own production and manufacturing and barrel machine. And then you've got the Begar silo for bolt-action rifles and then the CDA centerfire silo for manufacturing. So, it's a very, very well put together, state-of-the-art manufacturing facility. And we've needed it for a very long time. So, just to kind of give you an idea on the old facility versus the new, in the old facility that we were in, it was a three-story manufacturing facility. And it was getting to the point where we were growing so fast in both the CDA side and the Begar side that they were turning break rooms into areas for assembly.

They were having to do some of the work and some of the assembly, you know, in one part of the factory and then move the, you know, the semi-completed rifle to another part of the facility. So, it would literally take, from a production standpoint, anywhere from, gosh, a month to two months to get, like, an actual production lot of guns, you know, completed and out the door. Just wasn't quite as efficient. Just not quite as efficient. Yeah. Moving around and scheduling. Exactly, exactly. There was a lot of dead time that killed our efficiency, a lot of that moving time that killed our efficiency. And now with moving to these production lines and silos, what I mentioned earlier, we can cut that down to days, like seven to eight days. So, we can get, you know, more product out the door more efficiently. We can get, that helps us with, you know, new product introduction.

You know, our goal is to be able to, you know, react faster to market changes, whether it be, like for you guys, you know, Utah changing to, you know, require open sites. Or, you know, a large part of our business is straight wall stuff. So, like in the Midwest, you know, a lot of the states are moving to where you can use straight wall cartridges like 350 Legend, 400 Legend in your historical, you know, muzzleloader seasons. And having that ability to be able to change pretty quick to market changes is definitely going to be, you know, it's going to give us a boost. It's going to make us be able to react faster to that change. Well, that's good because out west, I don't know, I can't imagine, I don't follow all the eastern states, like regulation changes at all. But they change a lot out west, and it feels like the last three to five years they've gone all.

Well, and they're just reacting to the lack of quality and trying to adjust things. Yeah. Trying to change harvest. Trying to reel in the technology slightly. And so then we've got hams hunts. We've got all kinds of weird things, and they're throwing out. I wouldn't be surprised we do straight walled stuff a little more, you know. I mean. Maybe. On some center file hunts. Who knows what's coming. It's not even really been a thought for most of the states out here. Yeah. So what that brings skews for you guys. I mean, you've got stuff, yeah, that, you know, isn't just the .50 caliber, you know, hawking days back, you know, when Jason and I got talking earlier before we started this podcast, you know, we were, you know, we were shooting some pretty primitive stuff when we were 12, 14-year-olds.

But anyway, it's come a long ways, and, yeah, you have a lot of options now, and very interesting. So how long has that new, I guess, facility or that new setup been cranking over there? Probably about six to eight months now. Okay. So what they did is they didn't, instead of just basically turning the water hose off and shutting everything down, which would just kill production and demand for our, you know, guys like you and our consumers and our retailers, they did it in stages. So over the last, I'd say, 18 to 24 months, they've been slowly, you know, taking machines out of the old factory, moving them to the new factory. We've had a little bit of hiccup, but they've also added new machines to, during that time, too, to where, you know, we're still receiving product. The production's not affected as much.

And honestly, we really haven't, didn't really even notice a hiccup in production with the move. So they did it pretty, almost, I don't want to say flawlessly, but it was seamless, correct. Yeah. I mean, any product we've ordered been here within two weeks. Oh, yeah, it's awesome. It's great. Yeah, it's awesome. Good. But then on, so tell us a little bit, like, when you're turning, when you're turning a set of rifles into, you know, six to eight days or whatever it is or, you know, is that what you were saying? Like, now it's turning in a matter of a week or something like that, what you used to do in a month or? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So by the time that they get, you know, the barrels profile, they get all the other parts and components, you know, that lot, you know, it could be, you know, 500 guns in a lot,

or it could be 1,000 guns in a lot, depending on, you know, what our supply chain is calling for and what our, you know, dealers and purchase orders are calling for. You know, that time to basically get all the parts and components, get, if the barrel's got to be blued or Cerakoted, depending on the model, by the time we get all those parts and components into the assembly line, by the time they start, package the gun or assemble the guns, package them, put them on a pallet, shrink wrap them. And, you know, we're in that, like I said, six to eight day range instead of, you know, 30 to 45 days. And so with that, generally, how does that affect the overall quality of product? You know, is it, I mean, are you seeing accuracy go up? Are you seeing tighter tolerances, you know, with the production line being, you know, just tighter?

Just, it seems like everything's tightened up a bit and maybe that affects the product or maybe it doesn't. Maybe it's something you guys have always, always have, but it just seems like if you're adjusting the assembly lines and the processes and then also, you know, keeping things tighter and not having to transfer to building, to building, to building and things like that, how is that affecting the end product, which is what a consumer cares about, what I care about? Yeah. Yeah, no, I think that's a great point, Jason. I think it's improved it, honestly, because of that, because everything is under, I don't want to call it a microscope, but everything is, you know, in one area. It's not having to, you know, be jockeyed back and forth from one location to another in the manufacturing facility process. And I think, you know, it's definitely improved the quality, not only just cosmetics,

but also the fit, the function, and the accuracy. Yeah. Well, it's pretty awesome. I can't, I can't, maybe we should go into some, like, the models, but I've, I don't know, I don't know, guys, if I've, if I know a company that has more options and models. We've got the Colorado option. We've got, I mean, you can scroll pages and pages of different options, whether it be different camel patterns, whether it be the Cerakoting, whether it be the length of barrels, the calibers, the bear flame or not. I mean, a hundred different options. And so I don't know where you guys want to go with this podcast and teaching, you know, the customer what you've got available and how that affects all this. How do you pick one of them? I think for us out here, the LRX, the MRX, let's talk about those first. Yeah. Okay. That's their new models. And yeah, go ahead, Jason. I've got the LRX. Yeah.

Do you want to? So, so, you know, you're, you, you guys are talking about all the different models and different SKUs that we have, and that is correct, but they all have a different fit for a different user. You know, if you, if you look at different barrel lengths that we have, we have the LR models and then the MRX models. The LR models, obviously long range version with a longer barrel assembly and the MRs, obviously shorter barrels. So each one of those has its own place. You know, some guys think that, that they get a bit more accuracy, more muzzle velocity out of a longer barrel. Some guys don't want to deal with a longer barrel because they're hunting in a tree stand or, or in a box line. And it makes those, those MR models, in essence, the mountain models per se, easier to handle in a whitetail hunting scenario.

Or, and, or, if you guys are, obviously the Western market for us is growing extremely fast with these new additions and changes to the muzzle loading rules and rigs in those states out there. Some guys want the MR models because they don't want to hike up a hillside or a mountainside in you guys' world. They don't want to hike up a mountainside with a 30-inch barrel. They prefer a 26-inch barrel just to lighten their load of overall weight and carry capacity. Well, and before we leave the barrel length idea there, you know what I was shocked about? And you guys, we talked about it at length. A 30-inch does not feel like a 30-inch. Well, yeah. There's no action. And so. There's no action. Like, there's not as long as you think. Like, compare that to a rifle, which is 22 to 24, maybe a 26. A 26. Maybe. Yeah. But.

Yeah, our action design, obviously, is much shorter than one that you typically. And so I've got a 30-inch, and it doesn't feel, it doesn't feel like a 30-inch. It's like a 24 or 26-inch centerfire. Exactly. It's not sticking out like a. Not like a 30-inch shotgun. No. You know, like. Yeah, exactly. It's just, so anyway, when we initially heard 30 or 26 or whatever it is, you know, and you have in your mind how that's going to feel. Yeah. You just got to minus the action in your mind. That's a, you know, four to five-inch chunk of the gun that's not there as much. Because a lot of our muzzleloaders from, you know, five, ten years ago had a significant action. And so there was a design, a difference in design. And so the barrel length was shocking, I guess. I'd pick it up and I'd be like, holy crap. It's not as long as I thought it'd be. No, it's not. Yep. So anyway.

You know, and that 30-inch barrel model, the LR versions of the inlines that we manufacture today, that actually come about because we kind of did a consumer survey of what folks wanted to see in a futuristic direction of our brand. And a lot of people asked for that in particular to get more accuracy, more muzzle velocity out of that. But all the skews we have basically is meant to fit all the different users and consumers that we have out there in the world. And not everybody is going to want a 30-inch barrel, but some do. So we build specific models for those guys that want these specific attributes of different muzzleloaders that we manufacture. Oh, yeah. Like there's a lot of options. There's a lot of options. There's a lot of options. And so – Yeah, you know, some guys like camo. Some do not like camo. Some like .45 caliber. Some like .50 caliber.

So we try to make sure that we engineer and manufacture products that is to the masses. We build what they want. Yeah, I thought I wanted a .50. Then Bronson gets a .45, and then I realized I wanted a .45. Well, for me – So I sold my .50. No, I actually gave it to one of my kids, and then I grabbed another .45. Yeah, that's right. But we're used to shooting the .45s because of the ballistics. Well, yeah, that – most of the time, if I hunt with the muzzleloader, most of the time, it's for deer. Yeah. And so I archery elk hunt far more than I hunt elk with anything else. And, in fact, I don't remember when the last time I muzzleload hunted for elk. So the bigger caliber, you know, heavier bullet, all that is not as important to me. So a .45-grain bullet, a little bit more velocity out of all that, and shooting deer-sized game, that's what I'm after.

And the fishing game agencies, they don't understand. Like, a .45 caliber, when you're looking at the, you know, the weight and the speed and the energy, you can actually get more energy out of, like, a .45 than, say, a .50 if you're doing it right. And so when they have a .50 caliber restriction, that's archaic. Yeah. And a lot of them have kind of hung on maybe for elk, fortunately. But, hey, for me, that's why I made the decision. A little bit maybe flatter shooting for me. And I hunt deer. I hunt deer with a muzzleloader most of the time. That's what I'm hunting. You know, I don't hunt elk often. And so when you mentioned the difference in, say, velocity and accuracy, can you quantify that for us? What do you find in a .30-inch versus a .26 versus, you know, as far as your feet per second? The top questions I get. And your accuracy. Is there a difference or should I just go shorter?

Go smaller. Yeah. Between the LRX and the MRX. So let me back up just a second on the .45 caliber, .50 caliber conversation you guys were just having. So in my 30 years of the muzzleloading industry, there has been heaves and hoes of the .45 caliber coming and going three different times that I can remember. And so the .45 would come up and then would go away. And then would come up and then go away. But we have come up with it for the third time. But it's basically due to technology. It's not the .45 calibers of yesteryear. So like what you were talking about there where you guys hunt whitetail with a .45 caliber. You know, back in the day, that .45 caliber was designed originally to shoot 175 to a 225 grain projectile, which is super fast. But does not have a lot of kinetic energy due to its light body mass. And so that's why it would come and go over two decades.

It come and went twice because people realized it was super fast and super flat shooting. But then also didn't have enough kinetic energy to effectively harvest anything over a whitetail-sized animal. Whereas now we're shooting 300 grainers. Yeah. And magnum powder charges. Yeah. With these guns. So things have changed. So in the .45 caliber that we manufactured today, which we introduced several years ago, you know, now we're talking something that we've never talked about in the muzzleloading industry before. And that's high BC projectiles or ballistic coefficient of a muzzleloading projectile. Because originally, you know, a muzzleloader shot basically a big piece of lead plow. Let's call it a rock. Those pistol bullets. They shot .44. Nobody would dial for a rock. No. You know what I mean? It was a round ball, basically. Yeah. That's right. That's right.

So now we have technology to build longer OGI projectiles or basically longer taper, higher ballistic coefficient projectiles. And now we're building .45 calibers and 285 grain up to 325 grain bullets, which, as you can imagine, a .45 caliber and net projectile weight is a very long, sleek, sexy projectile. Amazing. It's actually amazing. Let's call it amazing. They're beautiful. Oh, it is. So the .45 is here to stay now that we finally got it right. We have got the projectiles figured out. We have got the weight figured out. We've got now kinetic energy that we didn't have before. And now we have a very long, sleek bullet that is very good at long range. And, you know, for effective purposes, where people talk about, oh, I'd rather shoot a .50 caliber for big game elk in consideration.

Our .45 caliber projectiles at 285 grains of body weight has enough kinetic energy to effectively harvest an elk at 600 yards. And that's not what we never could do that before because our projectiles are so light. And so what energy... And this reason they just have no staying power. I guess just to stop you for just a quick sec, but what energy do you figure you need to kill an elk? I like to hover around 1,300 to 1,400 foot pounds of kinetic energy. That's kind of what we've had in our minds. You know, yeah, over 1,000. I mean, some of the long range rifle guys definitely want over 1,000, 1,300 to 1,400. So similar. Exactly what you're talking about. And in theory, too, for the whitetail side of things, it's always been about 900 foot pounds of kinetic energy. And that's why the .45 of yesteryears did very well because they could maintain that.

But today, man, we have a .45 caliber with, you know, obviously we've adjusted and adapted to these longer projectiles, which changes up twist rate requirements in our barrels. So because we do manufacture our own barrels, we do manufacture our own projectiles, we can mate our barrels up with the proper projectile to make these very effective at long range elk hunting scenarios. With the exception of the states, they do not allow us to shoot a .45 caliber, a.k.a. Colorado. That's what I'm talking about. Yeah, Colorado. It's a little archaic. That's what I'm saying. They just need to catch up with the times slightly. I mean, but whatever. So that's what Adam's saying is initially our minds always went to .50 because that would allow us to do everything. Be legal everywhere and shoot a big enough bullet with enough energy, you know, and that's not the case.

You don't need – that's not a factor. Yep, not the case now. And these .45 caliber restrictions that are in place are basically in place and have been in place for a decade because the rules and regulations across some of these states are so old that they just have not been updated and they do not understand kinetic energy, projectile weight, ballistic coefficients of bullets have changed today. So basically it's just a lesson they have not learned with updated technology. Yep. Agree with you 100%. And so – and your products are affordable enough if you had to have a .50 caliber. It's a good excuse to go buy one. You got, you know, $450 to $650 roughly and you get a different gun. And that's your elk setup if you want that. Exactly. So that's what, you know, just very affordable rifles, even the higher end are affordable and shoot amazing. And so anyway, yeah.

Yeah, and Jason, the other thing to touch on real quick on the .45 that just wanted to throw it out there. And the reason – see, people may look at our catalog and our product lineup with you guys and say, well, why is the .45 caliber a little bit more expensive to the same look in .50 cal? Yeah. The reason that it is is because we include what's called a Veriflame adapter kit, conversion kit with the .45s. What we found is that if you're running a max charge, let's just say Blackhorn 209, 120 grains by volume of Blackhorn 209 in a .45 versus a .50, the 209 primers are made of a very – I don't want to call it aluminum, but it's a very weak material. And with the increased pressures in a .45 over a .50, you're having to – you're getting – the primers would swell and get stuck in the breech plug. So we were having to tell folks, you know, hey, we'll just decrease the powder charge.

Well, then that takes away the efficiency of what people want a .45 for. Yeah. Exactly. So – Nobody wants to decrease powder charge. No one wants to decrease. Other than on a muzzle or without a muzzle brake, I guess. I don't know. That might come in. Somebody might think about that. Yeah, exactly. Well, and so that's why we're like, you know what? These guys are kind of be willing to pay, you know, 50, 60, 70 bucks more, a little bit more for a better system. So let's include a Veriflame conversion kit. And what that is is the Veriflame looks like a .209, but it's made out of 416 stainless steel, and it's an adapter to take large rifle primers. So if a guy doesn't want – if a guy wants to shoot the full max load of 120 grains by volume of Blackhorn .209, they'll just need to swap out the breech plug with the Veriflame breech plug that's included with every .45 caliber Acura.

And then there's – I think there's 10 or 20 Veriflames in that kit that are reusable, and there's an actual repriming, reloading kit included as well. And that sounds slightly complicated when you mention it, but we've done it. It's not. It's not. You just swap them in your centerfire hand primer, prime them real quick, and you can do – I mean, we also tell folks to buy a bunch of extras. Buy 20 or 30. You're going to drop them in the field. You guys just handed me a bunch of extra. Are you telling me something? Well, you just hand me an extra 20 like, Jason, we know you're going to need these. When you prime these, do them all. Well, when you drop – when you throw a bunch of 209s in your pocket, you don't mind if you drop a few here and there. And then you get a sweaty pocket or you go in a rain store, whatever, and you're just worried about them in general. Or they just fall out.

These ones, you know, have 25, 30, whatever, and just do them all up, and that way you prime them all with the same primer at the same time. Exactly. And that type of thing. So they're very simple. Once you – like you said, it's very easy. Your breech plugs are easy to take out, easy to put back in, and then, you know, has a little depriming tool for your Veriflames after they're spent. Just a little thing knocks the spent one out. Whoever came up with the Veriflame name, that's a pretty good name. Yeah. Really. I don't know. Is that you? One of you guys responsible for that? Just take credit. Tony, was it you? No. Unfortunately, we can't. There's a guy out of Canada called Cecil Epps, and we were given his contact a few years back, and we've kind of partnered with him on that project and a couple other projects in the past. So, yeah, unfortunately, we can't take credit for it,

but it's definitely a very catchy good name. It is. Yeah, it is. And it tells you everything in a matter of just a word or two, which is kind of ideal. Tell me – let's talk about the max. This 120 grains of volume, you know, everybody – we're all weighing our powder, have done for a lot of years now, but – versus just, you know, the old standard – brass tube, yeah, volume thing. Yeah. But I think it's – Is it about 85 or 89 grains? It's roughly 84, 85. 85. I can't remember. Of weight is equal to 120 of volume. I believe so. Pretty close. Do you guys know? It's in the owner's manual, if I remember right, or the paperwork. Yeah. So, the factor is 0.7. So, it's just 70% of your volume metric. Okay. So, 120 grains by volume is 84 grains by weight. 84, 85, yeah. And that's 0.7, and is that in, obviously, Blackhorn 209 only? That's just Blackhorn, yeah. I don't know what the conversion is for –

777. Like your 777 and your Powerdex Luz. I don't know what the factor is on that. And is that the max with the Veriflame on any and all calibers and models? Yeah. Yeah. So, the max volumetrically for the max charge on Blackhorn is less volumetrically than loose powder. Loose powder or pelletized powder, the Magnum or maximum charge is 150, and Blackhorn is 120. Yeah. So, what you guys got to realize is – It's a burn rate. It's a different component. Yeah, exactly. Completely different powder. Yeah. Well, and the propellants that are on the market today, you know, it originally started with Go-X, and then it went to Pyrodex, and it went to 777. Now, it's a Blackhorn 209, and, of course, the Whitehots and the other pelletized forms of powder.

That's the great thing about muzzleloading in general is, in theory, all the muzzleloading propellants are equal in their burn rates and chamber pressures, with the exception of Blackhorn 209. Blackhorn 209 is about 15% hotter than other propellants on the market. So, that's why we put our maximum limitations at 120 grains versus the 150 that would be in a Pyrodex or 777 or a pelletized form of powder, just because it is hotter. And one thing, too, to remember and consider that, you know, there's multiple primers out on the market today, like we talked about the ignition source of the Veriflame, which uses a large rifle primer. And then the rest of our muzzleloaders are ignited by a 209 shotgun primer. There are multiple 209 shotgun primers on the market today. Several of them are what they call or consider a muzzleloading 209, which basically is designed for pelletized powder.

But because of the ignition point being higher on Blackhorn 209, that we have to run a standard full heat source 209 shotgun primer to make that Blackhorn come to life and light up. Interesting stuff. Tony, do you see – can you use a large Magnum rifle primer? So, you said large rifle, but can you use the Magnum? Yeah. Okay. So, that is a very fantastic question. And I'm going to back up just a little bit. I hate to keep going backwards, but this is going to tie into your question. So, the reason we went to the Veriflame adapter kit outside of the pressure issues of a .45 caliber, it also is a more instantaneous ignition source and also more accurate. And it's hard to think about making a muzzleloader more accurate by just changing the fire or the ignition, a.k.a. the primer.

But when we started testing some of our newer muzzleloaders and we were having a bit of inconsistencies along the way, that was running the standard 209 shotgun primer. So, just for, I guess, for giggles, we swapped over and went to a large rifle primer kind of before the Veriflame come to play. But what we were realizing is, say, typically in a .50 caliber running a 209 shotgun primer, we would have inconsistencies in muzzle velocities due to the 209 shotgun primer of the standard heat or standard version. It would actually dislodge the powder charge a little bit out of the powder column, basically pushing the powder and bullet forward before the powder ignited, which would give us inconsistent chamber pressures. Therefore, different muzzle velocities, different accuracies on paper was the end result.

So, when we started out with the large rifle primer, it has the same heat source as a 209 shotgun primer, but it's more, it's not as abusive. So, basically, think about a 209 shotgun primer. Basically, when you lit it up, it puked everything it had in one instantaneous fire, where the large rifle primer has the same heat, but it's more like a small blowtorch. So, when it lights up, it throws the same heat to give ignition that we need for the quick lock times, but it is not abusive upon ignition. So, we would go from 80 feet per second in muzzle velocity variance in a 209 down to 10 feet variance in muzzle velocities with a large rifle primer. So, they give us more, it gives us a consistent burn. It was just a consistent burn. More consistent burn, not as abusive, more consistent muzzle velocity, which gives us more accuracy at long range.

And if you go to the Magnum rifle primer, it also turns into the same scenario. It is too hot. It's abusive. And we'll dislodge the powder charge and cause us accuracy. I would never have guessed all this. I would, in my mind, I can picture 120 grains. And you want more fire. And I want the maximum fire. You want a big blowtorch, not a little one. Big torch. In theory, that's what everybody wants. That's what you think. But there is a fine line of too much of a good thing. We were talking about that the other day. We were. If you could use a Magnum or not. And I'm like, I guarantee there's a difference. Well, so just use the back. But I would have thought they would have said, yes, use the Magnum. You know what I mean? Well, they've tested. You absolutely can if you want to decrease your accuracy. Yeah. They've done that. Go ahead, Jason. Go ahead. But I don't recommend that.

Just use standard rifle primer. Use a 215 gold medal match Magnum. Go ahead, Jason. Okay. Standard large. That's it. All right. All right. So that's good. That's great stuff. Very interesting. I mean, it's very interesting. So, I mean, yeah. And so, I mean, I know we're talking about it largely with these 45s. 45s because out of necessity, like we talked about, because smaller barrel diameter, the powder stacks up further in the barrel because of that. You know what I mean? Yep. So you've got a longer, you know. You need a longer torch. Yeah. Bigger torch, you think. But you don't. But in a 50 caliber, is there any need? Very layman's terms here. Is there any need to do them? Is it better? Have you tested it in the 50 versus the regular shotgun 209s? And the shotgun 209 is just fine in the 50? Well, 209 is just fine in the 50.

But the Veriflame or the large rifle primer ignition is also more accurate in the 50. It's just not as noticeable. But it's basically, you know, if you want to be the best that you can and be the most accurate that you can, that large rifle primer is by far the better ignition source. But, you know, if you're okay with an inch and a half group at 100, then a standard 209 shotgun primer is very effective and efficient for you. But if you want to go that extra mile, that large rifle primer kit is definitely the best way to go. There's noticeable, though. So not out here in the West, though. That's what we feel are going to do. They're going to go to the Veriflame. You know what I mean? Versus the whitetail, if you're a short range. 100 yards and in a lot of times. I mean, inch and a half group at 100 doesn't matter. Yeah, they're cool. Just keep it easy, simple. Yep. Buy them off the shelf.

Yep. Go to town. Nobody's talking about the... All right, go ahead. No, I was going to say, I was going to... I kind of equate it to, you know, the guy wanting to go to the Veriflame ignition is going to be the guy that's more techie. Precision-minded. Precision-minded, a reloader. In the 50s. Yeah, in the 50s. I kind of think about also, like, your archery guys who, like, you know, have a small archery shop in their basement, kind of like I do. You build your own arrows. Weigh everyone to the grain. I mean, super critical. Yep. You hit everyone within one to two grains of each other. Yeah. You square the ends. You know, you guys know the routine. And the guy that really wants to fine-tune and dial in that muzzle loader for two... I mean, heck, Tony, I think you killed a mule deer buck a few years back at 300 yards with the LRX. Oh, yeah. So, a guy that wants to... That was a Veriflame.

Veriflame. Yeah. With a 50. Yeah, the guy that wants to just fine-tune and, you know, narrow down the performance of that system. Yeah. I mean, buying the Veriflame ignition system, even if the gun doesn't come with it, I think is a benefit. It's a real... But it also has to do with, too, not to cut you off, but like, if you're in an open-sight state, you've got so many other variables. Your eyesight, your peak, your fiber optic, all that. People, for 60 bucks, you can go first class. Yeah, they take that. But then their eyesight's so bad, they can't hold... They can't hit the broad side of a barn at 125 yards with the open sight. It's true, but they want the best equipment they can have. Here in Utah, every guy... It could be negated by other factors, I guess. And I think this podcast is awesome, but at the end of the day, guys are going to call

us and say, just get me what you get yourself. And that's all they're going to do. Like, people don't... They want to know that you guys know your stuff. So, listening to all this is awesome. I like hearing it. At the end of the day, I'm like, okay, just tell me what I need. I want the best. And for a nickel more, you can go first class. You're going to have this set up. And we're talking extreme accuracy. Extreme. When we shoot the LRX with the normal ignition system, Blackhorn 209, we were shooting four inch groups at 400 yards. Without it. That's in LA. At the 50, Devin? Yeah, in the 50. Yeah. We were shooting four inch groups at 400. Crazy. With the scope. Yeah. It's awesome. Magnified scope. Two or three years ago. Nice. Even without it, they're still highly accurate. They're still really good. So, yeah. How much work...

Is it worth all the, you know, priming your own stuff and all that? Maybe it is. I think Devin just had a mic drop right there. I was silent. I want proof. That's hard to do. That is really hard to do. I want proof. It wasn't me shooting as my brother. Well... How about that? Okay. For his LRX. Devin would have been three inch. But it took a lot of work. We did, you know, and we ended up being right there, 83 grains, 84 grains of weight. So, give us your... Do you remember the load? Do you remember the bullet you were using? Do you remember... Was it... No. I don't remember. Don't remember. I don't know. It was your brother's L gun. 250 grain. Was this the gun? You were a spot. Was this the infamous Archibald Muzzle Lutter? Yeah. Okay. I like it. All right. So, anyway, good stuff. There's a little bit of back history. We don't have to go that way.

My brother's involved with maybe a Halvzy gun purchase, and now Devin now owns. I own 100% of that muzzle. And it's awesome. So, well, good stuff. No. So, all right. And then on these different models, I guess, and we should go into the MRX at some... And we kind of have, but it seems like there's... Some come with a rail, some don't. Some have the drilled and tapped for open sight. Can you... Is there just a... Can we briefly go over that real quick? Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So, all the muzzle loaders are drilled and tapped, whether it be for a pick rail, scope rings, or scope mount, or open sights. A couple years ago, we made the decision on our open sight guns, on the Acura specifically, to go to the Williams peep sight. Just because, me personally, I feel like it's more accurate, because I'm used to shooting a bow.

And I feel like that type of system is more accurate than your standard, you know, fiber optics. And so, we've moved all our open sights to Williams, just because they're a great partner of ours. They make great products. That's what they do. That's what they do. They're the experts. We want to... Yep. The whole nickel more, you can go first class. Yep. Yep. Yep. Exactly. So, it's going to cost a little more on the gun, but for the consumer to not have an open sight fail on them in the field, we felt like it was more important to pay a little bit more for those. Um, and then the opens, or the scope now, we went to, we started going to pick rails, when Tony, about four or five years ago. Um, you know, we still have the integrated one inch, uh, on a couple of our lower, lower end models, lower price models. But for the guy running the Acura, they're going to run a 30 millimeter tube.

They're going to run a 34 millimeter tube. They're going to have... They're going to want a range adjustment. ...the scope and the rings that they want. Yep. They want enough dial and dope in that, in that scope to reach out and touch something at, you know, three, 400 yards. So, um, we, and that's part of the reason why we offer, you know, so many options in the catalog and it looks like it's, it's a ton. Uh, but it's, it's, it's their strategy behind it. Slide adjustments. Their strategy. Slide adjustments. Barrel length, sight, sight, and color. Camo or black. Yep. Yeah. Pretty much your variations and then your caliber add 45 and 50 and pretty much. Yep. You're dealing with 10 guns, but those four or five. Add on a fair flame or not. I mean, there's just a few little. Yeah. They, they basically will check the boxes for everybody.

Um, and then, uh, with the MRX and the LRX, actually the Acura, you know, extreme series, uh, is, is kind of the, the entire series. Um, you know, we, we went to a carbon fiber collapsible ramrod, uh, to, to do two things. We wanted to free float the barrel. Uh, but we also wanted to thread the end for a muzzle break. Um, we actually just, uh, just a little bit of a, um, uh, tidbit, uh, kind of getting insider trading, I guess, how many calls it. Uh, we got, we got a new muzzle break that'll be dropping hopefully in the next 30, 45 days. We've, we've done a lot of testing. We had a muzzle break in the line about two years ago and we just weren't happy with the performance of the design. Um, so we went back to the drawing board and we've been working on it for quite some time now. And, uh, it's, we got it dialed in and it's sleek and it's, it's perfect.

And it, when it works with everything, it works with power belt, sabbats, size bullets. It works with everything. Um, I kind of ended up with a, Oh, I want to, I want to call it an aftermarket, just an aftermarket screw on break. And I would never have known that there, it would act different on a sabbats versus a bullet to bore versus, you know. Oh yeah. Yep. So what you got to think of on that same scenario there is that, uh, sabbats is basically, uh, a parachute, uh, that would be behind a drag car if you're familiar with that process. So when that, when that projectile and sabbats leave the front of that barrel, uh, the further that sabbats gets away from the crown of that muzzle, the wider that sabbats gets because it's trying to back its way off of, um, uh, off of the projectile. So these longer breaks that's on the market today with multi-port design or some that are

just have the holes in it, um, they're going to be interference in the baffles or the break itself with the sabbats projectile, because that sabbats is basically designed to get away from that bullet. There you go. Yep. That's awesome. Yes, that's good to know. There's a reason I needed Tony on the podcast. That changed, that changes my mentality about what I've purchased. Yeah. But anyway. So, so the new one that we just teased a little bit is designed to shoot very effectively with every projectile on the market today. That way there's no interference of baffle and, um, or baffle strikes as it's actually called, um, to affect accuracy. Awesome. And also that one of those breaks that you're probably running may be a bit difficult to run a patch through and get that patch out. And, uh, the break that we have designed now is also designed to where that you can clean

it with the break on and not remove that break, uh, at the end of the day for cleaning purposes. Yeah, that's exactly. You thought of everything. Yeah, we, I mean, you just kind of deal with it. You just kind of deal with it and you come up with a little janky system to figure it out. You know what I mean? Well, yeah, we're superseding that. So, so stop doing that. Okay. I'm going to quit. Yeah. Well, we, we also just to plug the break again, we got a patent on that little, um, dimension or technology, uh, built into that break. So that's patent protected. So that's, that's a good thing, um, as well. But no, so just go back to the, uh, to the, just accurate extreme series. So, you know, um, you got the carbon fiber collapsible ramrod, the gun also. So that is only a loading rod. That is a field or range loading rod.

Um, and so, uh, going to that, again, what I mentioned earlier, free flow to the barrel where we threaded the end. So people could use a muzzle brake without interfering with the under barrel rod. And so carbon fiber collapsible ramrod comes in a molly pouch. That's, you know, you can put it on your backpack, you can put it on your belt, wherever, you know, you want to hang a molly pouch from. So, um, but also in the, with the gun, you get a solid aluminum ramrod or a cleaning rod. So that would actually be your range cleaning rod. So, um, you actually get two, two rods with the gun. Um, and actually we, we did, uh, we did a little bit of testing just to see, you know, how fast would it be to, you know, pull the carbon fiber collapsible ramrod out of the molly pouch versus an under barrel rod. And the time is about the same.

So by the time units, and it's kind of like, works like a tent pole, it's got shock cord in it. So when you pull it out of the pouch, it fully RX kind of like a tent pole state, you can load it, you can easily, you know, quickly break it down and stick it back in the pouch. So, um, just, just one, that's one extra feature on the Acura versus our other models. Um, the other, you get a built in adjustable cheek piece. So a guy like you guys in Utah, you got to run open sites. That cheek piece will go low enough to run open sites. But let's just say you draw a tag in Iowa or Kansas and you get, and you can throw an optic on it. You can raise that cheek piece up, you know, to get proper eye and scope alignment. There you go. Yeah. Another thing I would add is it comes with both breech plugs, correct? Is the what? It'll, it'll come with both breech plugs, which is awesome. Yeah.

You're talking for loose versus a, yeah. Yep. The 40, the 45 only comes with the black horn breech plug. Um, cause that's, there's not, that's what you recommend. That's, that's what we recommend, but I don't even think there's any pellet. There's one pellet that's on the market for 45, but we recommend black horn and all the 45s. But for the 50, it does come with two. It comes with your standard, you know, pelletized breech plug and a black horn breech plug. Yeah. Definitely feels like these LRX, MRX for the Western guy. Like, and like I said, affordability, price point, have a couple of them for different uses. If you want to do it that way, I would imagine your, your sales or your interest from buyers in the West. That's, that's, those are really, those are dominate, those are skews that are dominating, you know, right now at West. Yep. For sure. Yep.

And under this BPI umbrella, you guys, you sell everything that you need, like all, so many options on, on everything to do, do with a shooting period. So I don't know if you want to go into that a little bit or. Yeah. Yeah, we can. Yeah. Real quick. So, you know, at BPI, we've got, I mentioned it earlier, we got the Quake brand, you know, Quake, we got the claw sling. It's, which is probably the number one sling on the market for in that 20, $25 price range. The claw sling, very, very popular sling and a slim line, a contour pad and an original, you know, kind of what we call the OG pad, a bigger pad for like heavier, you know, bench guns or tactical guns or shotguns. And then we got power belt. So that's our muzzle loading projectile. Those are the bullets that obviously we recommend, not just for CVAs, but for other muzzle loaders as well. Specifically the ELR series.

That's our newer series that we launched a few years ago in, in conjunction with, with Paramount. But those projectiles work fantastic in our entire line from the Wolf all the way up to the Acura series. We launched a couple of dude bullet weights in that ELR series, a 250 grain for the 50 cows. So mainly for your, your East, your Midwest Eastern whitetail guys, and then a 330 grain in the 45 caliber and then a 265 in the 40 caliber is available. So if there's any guys out there that have a Paramount 40 cow and you want a heavier, heavier bullet for elk or for deer, you will, we'll have that available for you as well. And then the rest of the line, the CVA line, you know, we've got single shot rifles, bolt action rifles that are price point and affordable. Um, and then like I said, mentioned earlier, Bergara rifles is, is our sister brand, uh, you

know, premium high end bolt action rifle brand. Yeah. Jesus. Options for everybody. Lots of toys is what I'm hearing. It's a bit of information overload. I would imagine. Well, their website is a wife's nightmare. Yeah. I've got a few things I want to buy. Yeah. Well, it's pretty awesome. Drop some hints. I think we could hook, I think we could hook a brother up. Yeah. Well, um, yeah. And the, uh, we actually have a couple more, which I need to, to get with you guys on part of the other reason Tony's down here at headquarters is we're filming some videos, but we've got not only the muzzle brake that'll be dropping soon. We've got a new, what we're calling the ultimate range rod, which is a really, really sleek, solid one piece rod. That's got a, uh, well, Tony, I'll let you kind of explain it a little bit. I ain't trying to steal my thunder though. I know. Sorry. There you go.

There's, there's the bike. Um, so, so, you know, for accuracy, I'm sorry, for accuracy and muzzle loaders, uh, it's all about consistent. That means doing the same thing every time. And, you know, if you've, if you've played around with muzzle loaders much or the listeners here today have played around, they, they know that, um, seeding the bullet to the proper depth, obviously it's very important. Uh, and in theory we would take a ramrod and score the ramrod to the load that that gun likes so that we know we have a witness or reference mark, uh, in loading that gun. So number one, we can verify it's loaded. The bullet is always compressed against the powder charge. And then secondly, to verify that that gun is never double loaded or loaded at all, uh, with that reference mark. But we've created this ultimate ramrod for multiple different reasons.

Um, number one, when you take a traditional ramrod that's, uh, contacted on the bottom of the gun, uh, in most cases, uh, the, it does not spin. So when you're loading that projectile or pushing it downward, uh, the projectile is spinning, but the ramrod in your hand that you're loading with is not. So basically as you're loading that bullet, you're scribing a line in the face of that projectile, uh, which is gonna, there's gonna be some accuracy issues because of that. I've always wondered about that kind of stuff. Yep. So there are ultimate range rod. It has a ball bearing head assembly on it, uh, to where that when it is being pushed down the barrel there, the, uh, loading jag is actually spinning with the projectile, the grooves and lands. Uh, so there's no scarring or scoring on the face of that.

And then, uh, also again, kind of referring back to consistency is accuracy in the muzzle loader. Um, we created a bore guide so that when we're actually loading this, it keeps the ramrod center bore, uh, and basically, uh, keeps even and perfect pressure on the face of the projectile. So it doesn't load that projectile. Uh, we'll say, uh, in redneck terms, cattywampus per se. Cock-eyed. Yep. Cock-eyed. That's, that's Western terms. Oh, is it? Okay. I don't know. You guys don't use the word cock-eyed? There's another reason not to go to Georgia. I don't say cattywampus in the South. All right. Janky. No. So this, this range rod stops a bunch of these idiosyncrasies that causes accuracy issues. And then also we put a jam nut design, uh, that will slide up and down this range rod, uh, to allow you to utilize that on different muzzle loaders, different calibers.

Uh, and you can put that jam nut system together. Once you figure out, Hey, my gun likes a hundred grains of black orange 209 and a 330 grain bullet per se, then we can put those jam nuts together and it will allow us to verify proper seating depth. Not double loaded. Yeah. Well, not double loaded for sure. So it basically takes away that old school reference mark that we used to use. Um, and now this jam nut, uh, allow us to, yes, verify that it's not double loaded, verify the projectile is seated against the powder and verify again, consistency, verify it's seated to the same depth and pressure every time, unless you have a really dirty gun and then it just grows a little, you know what I mean? Well, uh, so we make sure that we don't shoot a dirty gun because that's inconsistent. It's not perfect. That's it. That is it.

When you're in the heat of battle, when you're in the heat of battle, stuff's going to happen. You know? Anyway, we're talking. So the ultimate range rod is brand new. We just finished up the video series on it today. Gotcha. Oh, that's awesome. That's going to be great. The bore guide is great because I have a range rod and you look at it and it, it can't be good for your barrel. No. Well, so here's the main thing. So the, your projectile, when it spins its way down the barrel, the last thing it sees is the crown. The very last eighth inch of rifling is what your projectile sees. And if you're loading it with a range rod and you do not have a bore guide, then every time you load it, you're basically grinding down that crown of that last one eighth of an inch of grooves and lands, which is your accuracy.

So with a bore guide, it keeps anywhere off the last portion of the barrel that your bullet sees. Yeah. Jeez. Lots of, I don't, I don't want, I'm glad that somebody knows all this stuff and they provide products for guys like me that just want the good product. Just want to shove a piece of lead down a barrel and flop it. Why are you using this ball bearing? I don't want Tony to ever see my Ranger. Yeah. Yeah. Devin was just mouthing over here that he's wore out a few guns doing that. No, it just might be. And hey, we all have. But try to do it as straight as you can and you can't. Yeah. It's, you got a spinning, spinning bullet like, like we've been talking about. Hey, Tony, can I ask you two questions about common questions I get? You betcha. Let it rip. If you know in a range like feet per second difference, whatever powder between the MRX and the LRX. Roughly.

If you have the same length of barrel. Same caliber, same projectile, everything that you're talking to. Well, between, yeah, the 26 inch barrel and a 30 inch barrel. Okay. Between the two models. So it's funny you say that. We're actually doing some testing on that here coming up very soon in the future. But it is, it is not as much as you think. So in the centerfire world, every time you change an inch of barrel length, it is, it is a noticeable difference in muzzle velocity change. Because our muzzle velocities in muzzleloaders are much decreased in a muzzleloading side of things versus centerfire. The percentage is different. That barrel length. Yeah. Yep. That barrel length is not that big of a difference. There is a muzzle velocity difference, but it's not as wide of a gap as you would think. Like a high powered rifle. That's kind of what I was thinking. Not even comparable, sir.

Okay. Cool. And then one other one is, could you go into the nitride coating a little bit and the advantages of that? Yeah, you bet. Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep. So the nitride coating is, we didn't invent that process, but it is a process. It basically makes our muzzleloaders impervious to corrosion, which is kind of a deterrent for a lot of folks to get into the muzzleloading world because they talk about it being dirty and nasty and corrosive and things like that. But basically, you take our stainless steel barrels that we have and in layman's terms, we run it through a high temperature salt bath. And basically, that is not a coating that we put on it. That basically changes the molecular structure of the stainless steel and brings the carbon that's basically already in the stainless steel and brings to the exterior surfaces. So that carbon now becomes your outer layer of protection.

And if you think about it, there's two outer portions of the barrel. There's your outer that you see, and there's the outer of the inside of the steel that you don't see. So the outside of the barrel looks identical to as the inside of the barrel does. So it makes it impervious to corrosion or any kind of rust situations that comes from powder or inclement weather or anything like that. And, you know, you may get a touch of rust on it, but it would be surface if you hypothetically was in a rainstorm for four days straight. But you can wipe it off with your fingertip. There will be never nothing that will penetrate the carbon that is now on the exterior surface to cause a pitting issue. You know, and there's other products out there in the world today that's like a Cerakote, per se, that is a corrosion protector.

But at the end of the day, that exterior coating does not go on the inside, whereas the nitride is every exterior surface that you see is black with that carbon that come from inside the stainless steel. Yeah. So, you know, we have Cerakote finishes on our guns, and that Cerakote is really just cosmetic. It's just to make the guns look good and sexy. Yeah. Yeah. It definitely helps with surface rust, corrosion resistant on the outside. But as Tony mentioned... You don't have the problem with a gun rusting out from the outside. Exactly. From the inside out, that nitride finish is in the bore where it matters most for muscle loaders. Yeah. And so... And it's inseparably connected to the metal. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You change... It's not a spray on feature. Yeah. It changes the molecular makeup of that metal. Yep. Yep. It sounds amazing.

It increases the surface hardness to like a 60 or 70 Rockwell. And does that coating give you a little more speed too, possibly? Or... Um... I believe it... It can't... It does increase it just a little bit. You know how they used to mollycoat bullets a little bit just to make them slick? You know what I mean? Yeah. Just... I wonder if they're... Yeah. Anyway. Anyway. All of these things... It's like we're talking about... How many things have we talked about? Ten of them. Ten things that all make a little difference. But the sum of that could be as huge... Is why we're talking... Why we're excited about muscle loaders. And we weren't... I just want Devin to tell me which gun I need. And order it up. Yeah. Order a pallet of them. Because if we like it, everybody likes it. That's right. Well... It's funny. You know, when I grew up muzzle loader hunting, I can't remember...

It was an old side log, you know. Oh, yeah. But back in the day, it was... Yeah. It was just like everybody considered them a throwaway gun. Oh, yeah. You know, you go to Bass Pro or whatever. And you'd buy a muzzle loader for $199 or $299. Just to be able to give you an extra two, three weekends. That's exactly right. And I remember wetting the patch. You put it in your mouth. And the grain of the patch... Oh, yeah. That's called a spit patch. The grain of the patch... Yeah, exactly. Needed to go this way versus this way. You tried to do... Yeah. And you tried to mimic it like we need the same exact patch for the next 50 years. But then you're also jamming that round ball down. And you know you were making... You're scarring the rock. You're scarring the rock. So, I mean, it was... We were doomed from the start. Then you find out lead's not good for you.

And we're shoving lead through our meat. With hot soapy water. Yeah. Oh, yeah. What's that? So, we used soapy water with boiling. Boiling hot soapy water. Boiling hot soapy water. That's how Dad and I cleaned out. But I guess what I was getting at is... Is that bad? Just tell me if that's bad because I still have that habit. Ah, well. I mean... It's bad because your wife's going to throw you out the building. Yeah, it stinks like rotten eggs. But anyway... Oh, it was bad. But no, the reason I've written that up is, you know, back then they were just considered throwaway guns. When it turned into a rust bucket, you'd just trash it and go buy another one at the next sale at Bass Pro or Cabela's. You know, now we're making muzzleloaders that are practically air loose. Lifelong guns, yeah. They will last. Especially with the nitrate coating, these guns will last.

As long as you take care of them, they will last. Well, that... You know, that's not good. It's not good for business. You want to be able to sell guys' guns. Well, you don't want to sell... Hey, this is a disposable gun. You don't want to do that either. I don't know. Well, maybe... It sounds good on paper until the guys bought three of them. It's like, geez, I'm buying something different. I remember, Devin, were you here when I threw away my old muzzleloader from 1950? I remember you saying you're probably going to throw it away. Yeah. Well, it pitted. I could look down at it and it would pit it out. And I used to take great care of it. Well, I thought I did anyway. And anyway, it was one of those guns that I just... I killed everything with it. And, you know, it was just kind of... Anyway, they did have a life. And it did expire. You know? So, anyway. Good to know.

You guys are making incredible products. It's crazy. I'm like Adam. Just tell me what I need. I want the best. And it sounds like we kind of got a good feel for why it's the best. Yeah. I think it's awesome. You guys continue to be innovative. Clear down to a ramrod. You know, guidance down the bore. And all the reasoning behind it. It's just pretty crazy. Pretty awesome. Yeah. Well, thanks. Thanks, guys. Thanks for partnering with the brand, man. We appreciate all you guys do for us and the industry and hunters. So, you guys have been a great partner. Maybe one more just penetrating question. When are these muzzle brakes coming out?

Jason's about to take a drill plet at the end of his barrel. And then we... Port it out. And can we... Man, honestly... As your number one dealer, can we have them next to Aaron to us? So... Man, honestly, I'm hoping... I was actually just talking to our technical guys today. We're hoping we can have all the... What we call the DV testing and protocols done. Design validation. And basically have... Have all the box checks for everybody to agree that it's a go project. Hopefully... I'm hoping by the middle to the end of August is when they'll be ready. I know that's getting kind of closed up pretty much... I was going to throw a shot shot out. You'll be in production with a shot shot. Maybe for this season then, Jason. That's what he's saying. Oh, really? That's what I'm hoping for. Yeah. Well, August, you'd have the boxes checked. Then you've got to set up an assembly line.

No, no, no, no, no. I'm saying get all the boxes checked and have them ready to start selling and shipping. Release the hounds is what he's saying. Yeah, release the hounds. Yeah, exactly. We're putting an order in today. Release the hounds. And will you be able to retrofit the guns you've already been selling? Will you just throw them on? Thread right off. Yeah. Just thread on. Thread right off. Yep. Any MRX or LRX that's already threaded or anybody that has a paramount out there that's threaded, either three-quarter by 20 or three-quarter by 24, these brakes will work just fine. That's awesome. Yep. Jeez. It'll be good. You're welcome. Yeah, it's great. All these things add up, man. The sum of all these 10 different things from the firing mechanism, from the primers to the standard. They'll be able to do what your eyes can see.

They will be able to do whatever you can see, whether it's looking through optics, whether it's looking through open sight. That's right. Well, it's what we want. We want something that can kill something. Because 30 years ago when we started hunting, or 35 when we started using these, it was a hope and a prayer is all it was. You're throwing an Uncle Charlie curveball round projectile. You could hear it going through the air. Kill a lot of stuff. Kill a lot of stuff. But we're talking, we're going on 35 plus years, Bronson. Well, I know. That's why I said 35. Been muzzled or hunting that long. 15-year-old kid that we're just, man, hoping a prayer, slapping the pieces. I think of myself as pretty, I was pretty, I was deadly. Yeah. Yeah. I'll bet if you could look through your eyes now at your 15-year-old self, you're like, wow, that kid knew nothing. That kid was a real piece of work.

That's right. That's right. All right. Well, we appreciate you guys. Thanks for the partnership as well on our end. Yeah. Anything else? Thank you. No, thank you guys. Well, yeah. You've been very informative for our listeners, for us ourselves. I know listeners, obviously. So anything you guys want to end with that we haven't made you covered that you think is noteworthy before we, you know, turn you loose on the rest of your day? I think that probably the most noteworthy thing, if anybody has any questions, concerns about anything that we talked today, you can go to cva.com and get that information about who we are, what we make, all the accessories we make, and so on and so forth for anything that you need for muzzleloading this fall. New video. Yep. And we have, we just released a new series on YouTube called Essentials to Muzzleloading,

which is a 10-part series that we filmed on my range there at my home in Tennessee and then some here at our office here in Lawrenceville, Georgia. So it's a very informative, in-depth video series for folks that already know stuff about muzzleloading and for folks that don't know nothing like Jason here. Well, 10-part, how long are each of those parts? Because is this a, is this, is this, can you get a binge watch this? And which Jason are we talking about?

He got a double there, man. He got a double, I'm offended.

So each part of this series, obviously, depending on the subject matter that we're talking about there at the time is, is different lengths of time. I think probably the most, uh, the, the lengthiest one of the crew is probably, yeah, I think it's like 12 to 15 minutes, I believe is the longest one. Most of them kind of hover around that five minute mark to keep everybody's. You sit down a couple, two, three hours, you pound 10 of them out and you're, you're, you're very nice. Easy peasy, man. Gotcha. Yep. I think it's a pretty good bit of information that can be utilized across the board for experience levels that, uh, well just search CVA, CVA or BPI, uh, on, or what? On YouTube. How did you find that? Yeah. Uh, C, CVA, CVA. Gotcha. Perfect. Yep. People are going to want to go there. I can guarantee it. Maybe we'll have you guys back on, go over some rifles, talk straight wall. Yeah.

Who knows? A little everything. Yeah. That'd be great. Yeah. That'd be awesome. Another time. But I appreciate your time. Anything, Devin? No. Your head's spinning. Yeah. Well, what's happening? He's realized how many guns he's scarred at the end of the, dealing with the range rod that was janky. I was thinking I'd like to kill a buck with a straight wall. That'd be freaking cool. Yeah. Well, we've all talked about that. We got to creep in a few of those hunts in the, kind of common western states now. Yeah. They've gotten way more common, common like Iowa and other places like that for whitetails. And, you know, you don't have to use a single shot muzzleloader, you know, that there's benefits to it, but we maybe talk about those at another time. But yeah, guys, we really appreciate your time. Very, very informative. Yep. It's awesome. You're, you're welcome.

And thank you for having us guys. And again, appreciate the partnership. All right. Sounds good. Thanks a lot. Have a great day. All right. Take care guys. You bet. See y'all. Yep. Bye.

Jeez. I'm glad. Well, I'm glad I haven't got too far down the road. Devin, your, your gun's been used, maybe scarred. That, that one we're talking about. Well, it's not the, I have a range rod that I use just for that. At the range. Yeah. Shooting a lot. And you can see your scratches. You can. On that rod. You can. Whether it's a ram rod or range rod. I've thought about everything they're talking about. Because it's a bigger diameter. As far as your rod not spinning, 1400 different variations. It's like when you clean. But what I, I like to do what I'm doing in the field. Well, yeah. Whatever. I mean, my range rod is less scarring. Well, in the field, I'm going to be scarring the crap out of stuff. Well, but it's also like, if you're trying to work up, if you're trying to work up your load at the range and find the recipe, you want that there. You want no variables.

When you go to the field, there's going to be a wider variation then. Cause you're using a stick. Shot one's cherry. After that, it's a freaking hope and a prayer. Let me ask you something. And it's a free for all. Adrenaline. It's a free for all. Just powder. And sometimes you get two thirds of the powder in that. That's right. I've done that before. I've been a few grains shy on a follow up shot. 100%. Absolutely. But, but shot one should be perfect. That's right. Yes. Should be loaded with a range rod. Exactly. Let me ask you guys something that a lot of people don't think about. Do you buy the proper loading tip for your projector? No. Yes. I do. Because that plastic tip's freaking that long. Yeah. And so you need that. Even a shorter, like 50 cal, you can buy certain. Yeah. So the tip is not getting bent. The tip. But eventually it has to make contact. Versus a 45 gram,

45 caliber bullet, sorry, versus a 50, your, your BCO jive's going to be different. Correct. It's going to want to sit down on there. But a lot of those ramrods, they don't have that. It's a one size fits all. It's, it's grabbing it and it's just. They go with one fits the masses. The one, the one thing I take solace in is. Solace. Wow. Well, oh, Mark Thompson used to shoot thousands and he would get the seconds. He would break, he would break off the tips of acubons and just say shoot. And you could shoot a thousand yards. And so then I'm like, you know. Also dealing with the center fire with. So yes, I've janked up some tips and I'm like, you know what? It'll still kill. You know what I mean? And luckily, most of the stuff we're talking about, these guns too, we're still talking most of the time, honestly, one to 200 yard kill shots with muzzle. So yes, it's what we're usually.

So if you tip your gun upside down and a little tip falls out the end of it, just don't just go kill the end. It'll be all right. And right Devin, it'll work. But Devin, Devin's losing his mind here because he's a perfectionist. It's good though. So the, the, the advice I'm giving you is not Devin approved. Come on. I don't know about a perfectionist. Oh, come on Devin. Well, meticulous. You are. Is that a different? When I measure my grain weights. Well, that's different. Mine are too. That is different. Mine is too. That is, that's unwavering. But, but some of these other things we talked about today, but if we took a CCI and a federal and mixed them, would that bother you? It would drive me nuts. Listen, I've had the same three stacks of primers for 10 years. Okay. So don't take offense when I say your particular, maybe even slightly a perfectionist. Fine. That's good. Hey,

if it isn't, Hey, we're still, you're still bringing up this, this, uh, open site kill that he made two years ago. Stuff like that makes a difference. It does make a difference. I haven't been that shook up. I don't know, man, that one got me. Cause I went back and forth in my mind. Like, Oh, it's over. Morning's over. Didn't work out. And then all of a sudden he's brought outside. I'm like, I'm looking, I'm like, this is happening. And then, you know, back and forth, back and forth. And finally, I'm like, this is happening. I don't know. It worked, but it did work. And he's on your wall. He's on your wall. That's all that matters. And the legend grow. Except the shot. The shot heard around the world. Devin, the legend grows.

It's a heck of an open site shot. It is true. I don't care how you skin that cat. It's on video. It's no joke. That was the only situation that I think that would have worked. If he was in taller sage or even had any kind of, yeah, blending. I shot a deer. It wouldn't have happened. I wouldn't have shot. Muzzled a deer in 2019. It was 125 yards. It felt like it was 500. Well, it opens up. Yeah, it does. When I shot an elk with a one power at 150, same thing. I was like, this, I'm just going to, it's 150. I'm going to let it rip, obviously. I'm going to say a little prayer. Yeah. We're going to see how this goes. When I pulled the trigger, I wasn't that confident. Yeah. So anyway, I'm just saying when you made that shot double, basically what I made, I was impressed. Not going to lie. Thanks. Yeah. It was, it was a perfect situation. That's all it was, but very informative.

Lots of info there. And like I said, for all of you guys listening, you go BPI outdoors or CVA, you can get there either way, but how about call it epic when you go to buy? Oh yeah. We've got every model pretty well that they have. And we sell smoking deals. Yeah. Smoking deals. Good deals. Ready to get them out. We even got very flame adapter kits in stock. Yeah, we do. Took us a minute to get them. We got them. It's awesome. Anyway. We'll be using them. Well, we appreciate them guys. They're good dudes. Yeah. Good. I can tell they got a lot of, you can learn a lot from Tony sitting with him in the range for a couple hours. I could see. It might change my whole. I don't, I don't know if I want to do it. All I need to know is the best shiz possible. Give me the gun, the gun, the bullet, the primer, and the powder concoction. The least janky system possible. They grew up shooting rocks.

What else? We did. It was no joke. We've come light years. It was no joke. I'm telling you, that pitted barrel. You asked. It was a, it was a, it was a night MK 85 with a percussion gun. So it was the, it was the one of the first. Yeah. Right. And so, our serial number, literally, Hawken, Woodstock Hawken percussion. Well, and then prior to that, that was, that was, that was the latter days that were improved upon. I still remember Aaron, my brother's first buck. It was a nice four point. It was in that general season muzzleloader, early November, rut and dose, 45 caliber Hawken. I don't remember how far he shot. It was a hundred, hundred, hundred, double F powder. Yeah. Shot it, killed it. We retrieved the, the round ball out of the buck and it had a perfect circle with the ramrod down there. Perfect circle just embedded on there as he was shoving that down.

We retrieved it out of the deer. You could reshoot the bullet, the ball. We took tire weights and melted the tire weights down. Like, like you think, how precise is that? Do you think we would be good at making muzzleloader bullets and making them uniform and perfect like Devin would want? Yeah. You put them in those, grip, those things, grip, yes, grip, those tools that you poured it in there hot. And then we find that lead kills people. I was going to say that. Animals, environment. And my, my hands were full of lead. Yeah. And then you probably ate a sandwich right after that. I have, no, while I was making those bullets, I had lead, lead air gun pellets in my mouth. Yeah. Sucking on your pellet. Because you never know when you're going to see a bird. That's where I carried mine. When we were hunting birds with your pellets. 17. In your mouth. Sucking on your pellets.

I never put pellets in my mouth. We did. 100%. We did that growing up. 100%. You can't reach in your pocket. We use copper BBs, man. Well, we did that too. We did that too. But, but pellets were more accurate. But pellets hit harder than a BB. They all do that. They were flared at the base. So you, you felt like it would fit to the lands and grooves. I was more of a youth blowgun hunter myself. A what? A youth blowgun hunter myself. Oh yeah. Well, we've heard about the, the high fence situation you had in a garage. Was that a hummingbird?

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Epic Outdoors is proud to be an official Zeiss dealer and optics partner. When it comes to top-tier quality, Zeiss has been a leader in the industry for generations. If you're in the market for new optics, give us a call for unbelievable deals on Zeiss products. Giving you the highest quality and durability out there without breaking the bank is what makes Zeiss so good. Check out our website EpicOptics.com or call us at 435-263-0777 to find out which Zeiss Optic is perfect for you. Epic Outdoors is now an official CVA muzzleloader dealer. If you're in the market for a new muzzleloader, our staff can go over the different options that you should consider. CVA muzzleloaders are the go-to muzzleloader for Epic Outdoors and crew. We've definitely got our favorite setups for Western big game hunting in stock. Call us today at 435-263-0777 to find out which CVA is perfect for your next hunt.