EP 90: Hunting the West from an Eastern Perspective with Roger Smithson PT2

There is no right or wrong answer on all that. It varies by the hunter, it varies by the species, it varies by land access. And you better not quit. You better just be able to know when to move from plan A to B to F. Anything to do with Western Big Game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody, Jason Carter and Adam Bronson here with the Epic Outdoors podcast, coming at you, Cedar City, Utah. So, talking nothing but Western Big Game, that's all we do. All we know, we pretty much don't do anything else or have any other hobbies. My wife is trying to get me into boating. Anyway, we'll see if it works. I don't know, we're going to go do a few things. But having said that, that's pretty much all we're doing here. Southern Utah is applying and talking about tags and hunting and doing. So, anyway, got a great guest on us for a part two, Roger Smithson. We did a part one, talked about applying from an Eastern perspective and hunting and a few stories to go along with it and how to do some of these different hunts. Excited to jump right back in with him and talk about some other topics that are pretty

significant from guys, you know, that have questions every day that we're dealing with. But before we do that, we want to thank Under Armour for sponsoring this podcast. Of course, we deal with a lot of different companies that sponsor the podcast and work with us in a wide variety of ways in the magazine and running ads and doing different things. Of course, we only work with the best. These are guys we've known and dealt with for many, many years and become really close friends with, I guess you'd call it, Adam, friends of the industry. That's right. We also just want to give a shout out to Red Rock Precision. They've been a great sponsor of ours here and supporter. And check them out at redrockprecision.com. Make great long-range rifles. It's what we use here in the office and they'll make you a more effective hunter for sure. Yeah, we appreciate their support.

But Roger, thanks for coming back with us. First one we did was a lot like, you know, getting back together, guys talking, hunting and just like we're driving down the highway, you know, and reliving everything. It's like throwing it all out there, random a little bit. But we got through a lot of good stuff. So appreciate it. And today I think we'll go a little bit more through some of the other things that Easterners have as far as questions and how they put together their hunts, if that's all right with you. Sure. I got to thinking after we did that first podcast, I hope people in the West can even understand what I'm saying, the Southern accent. I was going to ask you earlier when you, when you're saying Colorado, I was going to say, Zach, are we talking about Colorado? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. What state are we talking about? Nevada.

I don't have those Chris pronunciations like Jason. Is that Adam that does Powered Bond or Armor? Oh, that's Chris. That's Chris. Adam could. I could, but I'd have to really try. I thought, man, that boy scares me. More natural to Chris, yeah. Adam would have to go smoke a cigarette or a cigar. He could get there. He could get there. Yeah, I'd have to coat my throat in flour or something like that before I talk like that. That first podcast did kind of remind me of just kind of some of the conversations that we've had driving down the road in a pickup truck, and they kind of just randomly roam. And I hope the listener can get something out of it. But that's kind of what we do just when we're all around each other. And I was thinking about that after we did that first podcast.

And I was thinking about a conversation we had one time, and Jason was telling me about this giant buck he was chasing in desert Nevada. And we were running some trail cameras. He had never seen this buck in the daylight for like three years, and he could not see the buck. And a lion had. This better be a true story. Yeah. I'm sure it is. Roger isn't the kind of guy to make stuff up. Keep going, Roger. A lion had moved in the area. And this, I think it was like a, Jason, it was a big four point or maybe a three by four that was like 34 inches wide, if you remember that buck. And a lion had moved into the area, and you were concerned about the lion and all this. And he was going through this. It was Mac. Oh, yeah. It was probably 36 or 8 inches. 38 inches. All right. Keep going.

You were telling me about this buck, and you were losing sleep over this buck, and you were giving yourself an ulcer over this buck. And I was just thinking, man, he is so into this deer, and I was listening to you. Then at Clear Blue, you said, do you think Lady Gaga is a talented artist? I said, what? Where did that come from? And somebody had put some songs on your phone, and you got to listen to those songs. You said, yeah, I think she's got a great voice. I've never listened to her. She can really sing. This is me. This is not a true story. This is not. All I remember was when the song came on, you knew every word. You remember that? And you were like. Adam, he's lying. Adam, tell me the expression on his face right now. He's lying. No. I don't know, but that sounds like Jason. Was it the song where she wore the bacon dress? Oh, jeez. I think Adam just exposed something there, Jason.

He's watching the videos. I just love bacon.

Anyway, sorry about that, but that's where some of our conversations go. Oh, yeah. Well, when you're trying to stay awake, running cameras, or running the desert, crazy. That's probably, that might have been on that hunt in 2012 when Jason and I were, we got schooled on a bull hunt. You came out. I don't know if you had a business meeting out here or what. Yeah. Yeah, that was. But you came out and spent a few days in the desert with us, and that's when the sun can cook your brains a little bit when you're out there that much. Oh, I forgot about that. So we'll chalk that up to that, Jason. I reserve the right to final edit.

All right.

All right. Sorry about that. Oh, that was a great story, because I'm sure it's true.

So we talked a lot last time, Roger, about just the whole methodology and mindset about developing a plan, being committed to it. Don't be overwhelmed. Don't think you're going to draw too many tags. Ease into hunting the West. But let's talk. Maybe now a little bit into, all right, so you got a tag, or maybe you don't draw, but you want to just book a hunt out West, because we didn't really get into that last time. But there are other mechanisms, outfitter tags, landowner tags, that you can plan and book a hunt out West. And so, but if you drew a tag, you got the option to go guided or self-guided. But we realized a lot of Easterners as well view a lot of their Western experiences, especially for the first time. They're like, wow, it's going to be costly because, yeah, I draw an elk tag. And it's a great elk tag.

But now I got to hire somebody because I know nothing about elk hunting or the area or what that. So let's talk a little bit about that. The guided versus unguided discussion, I guess, for maybe somebody that maybe is inclined and has done all, does all their white-toe hunting back east on their own. And, you know, on either leased ground or ground they own. And sometimes, yeah, we use a guide just to be able to hunt the wilderness in Wyoming. Or sometimes we use a guide to access the right piece of private. But then, you know, obviously there's a lot of these hunts. Roger, as you know, you get the choice. Do you go guided or unguided? All that factors into the decision, especially like an Eastern guy has to make. And I've done all of them. You know, I've gone guided. I've gone, you know, for all my thin-horned sheep up in Western Canada, I've gone guided on those.

I do unguided, you know, most of the time in the Western U.S. And like we mentioned earlier, I do some guiding. So I kind of have an opinion on all that. I don't, there is no right or wrong answer on all that. And I think it varies by the hunter. It varies by the species. It varies by land access. You know, how you got the tag. You know, some of these tags, you're already committed to somebody. So all that kind of has to factor in, especially for the guy from the east. There's quite a bit to process on that because the thing you've got to consider is if you're going to go out there on a hunt, you've got gear. And if you're thinking about doing this on your own, you're going to have to drive to carry all of your gear, you know, to hunt for a week. And that can be tough. You've got food, camping equipment. If you're going to stay out, your guns, optics, packs, all that stuff.

And so you're going to have to drive. Well, from a guy that's driving from North Carolina, you're two days on the road to get to most of those Western states. And a lot of times you're exhausted when you get there and you're tired before you even start a physically grueling hunt. So a lot of that says, well, OK, you should go with an outfitter then. And I think in outfitters, a lot of times we'll access, do have access to better areas where they're because of the remote nature or because it's private land. An outfitter can help a guy maximize attack. But there are some people that are just more interested in the experience. And I find as the older I get, I want to get a good animal. I'd like to maximize the tag. But I'm also more about the experience and kind of being in control and not having to deal with some of the drama with some of the outfitters and guides and that stuff.

But I've done both. I've been with some great outfitters through the years, especially in Western Canada. And but most of the stuff that I do in the Western U.S. is is going to be unguided. But I have to factor in. I got driving time. I got gear.

Then once you get there, if you get an animal, then you got meat to deal with. What are you going to do with that? You know, outfitters help with that. But if I'm on my own, I got to figure out, do I do I process it here? Do I try to freeze it here? Do I just head home right then? And capes, you know, if you if you kill a deer, you know, kill an elk. Do you know how to cape out the animal to get the cape off of it so you don't ruin it? Are you going to leave it with the taxidermist in the West? Are you going to try to secure a place for so someone would freeze it for you? It's just a lot of little questions that you kind of have to factor in for the eastern guy that's going out there. Like that cape deal. It's a tragic story about a guy that went out last year and killed a I think it was a 196 buck in Colorado.

And he brought it to me to mount and he'd kill the deer on a like a Monday afternoon. And he had it back to Arkansas Saturday night. And and that the cape had never been froze. And I could smell it as soon as he soon as he brought it into the shop. Oh, my. So he's got a buck of a lifetime and the cape is toast. It's ruined. And man, all you had to do is secure somebody where you could freeze it. He said, yeah, I thought of that. And he said, I probably should have done that beforehand. And I said, I couldn't find the spot. Well, there's probably several meat lockers within a 30 minute drive that would have froze that cape for him. But then anyway, he he replaced the cape, but it wasn't his deer. It wasn't his cape. So it's just little little things like that. The meat, the cape, getting your gear back and forth. You know, an outfitter does take care of that.

But if you want to do it on your own, you need to you need to be prepared to address all that. Well, and part of it is cost. You know, you're you're adding up wherever you're coming from in the world to heading out west, driving gas, motel, food, you know, all your extra gear that you're going to buy that, you know, you're you're going to have to provide versus an outfitter is going to have there for you versus just flying out and being picked up in Denver, Salt Lake, Albuquerque, wherever, you know, one of these, you know, major airports that you can get to in a lot of the a lot of the west. But but, you know, I guess let's just talk about like deer and elk. You know, I think a more most fully outfitted deer and elk concentration probably just be between fifty five and seventy five hundred. You know, there's differences throughout them logistically, whether you're wilderness back

or horseback in or, you know, the length of days or things like that. So that's that's kind of what you're and everybody in their world, in their own world and their own job and their time away from their business or their life or their family is is worth differently. And, you know, meaning, you know, you might have a CEO from a, you know, giant company and he misses an extra five days of work because of two days driving out two days back. And that's that's the cost of a guided hunt times three. You know what I mean? And so it makes an easier decision for certain people than others. But then it comes down to, like you said, there are other people that like to just do their hunts on their own for the experience. They like to they like to succeed on their own or they're willing to just fail on their own, but they want to try. And that's part of the whole experience for them.

So those are the decisions you have to make personally in your mind. But if you choose an outfitter, you know, Jason, I and Jeff and everybody here at Epic Outdoors, you know, that's part of what you get in our services to have us have done a lot of that lead work and stay on top of outfitters that are producing in units that you've drawn, let you talk with them. So you don't have to put something to chance in terms of just picking somebody that came up on a Google search. And OK, let's go with that. But but let's talk maybe about, OK, you're making the decision to go guided. And what do you need to be prepared for? Yeah. And I guess to kind of dovetail into that, Roger, a little bit, there's no shame in going guided in my. It's like when I and some people think there is. But honestly, like just imagine me coming out to Arkansas.

OK, and remember, like when you were when we were planning on a whitetail hunt and you you kind of geared me up on whitetail gear and it was like a wazoo 18 point harness to keep me in the tree, keep me safe in the tree and all this. And, you know, back when I was raised, I mean, you basically put a rope around your waist and call it good and that pretty much killed me, you know. And so anyway, things have come so far and I and I don't sit tree stand. I don't know that the the gear that's what you're supposed to be using. I don't know how to set up a tree stand per se. And and so like I would I should go guided or with somebody that knows what's going on if I'm going to go anywhere east of Kansas. You know what I mean? Yeah. And and and to make the best use of, let's say, a three points in Iowa or four points

in Iowa, it would be smart for me to hook up with a guy like you or to go guided and versus me just doing it. Because what food plots like what's a food plot and where we're, you know, travel routes and corridors and scrapes. What's a scrape like? I mean, literally things that you guys take for granted. Everyday lingo is totally new to me. Totally new. I have no idea what what this crap what you're reading. No, I just sign and yeah. Yeah. And the same applies for vice versa guys from the east. Yes. Coming out west. And and you draw this once in a lifetime tag. You draw one every 10 year tag like you're talking Colorado, one every eight, whatever, whatever it is. By the time you get done with the hunt, you wish you could do it over because now you know enough to be dangerous. And that's what but but if you go with an outfitter, you can kind of sometimes make the best use of that tag.

And so that's what we're trying to wrap our head around is when you make those decisions and and if you're going to go self-guided, how do you research that if you're going to go guided? How do you prepare yourself for that? And so let's talk a bit about the preparation of going on an outfitted hunt. I think on an outfitted hunt, obviously, an outfitter gives you your best chance to maximize that tag, whether it be a tag that you've drawn and waited for for 15 years or it's a high dollar landowner tag. They're going to give you most likely your best chance to maximize that tag. So they they're going to know the area. They're going to know the gear. And really, you're paying them for their experience and how they get you into that area. And like you said earlier, it's these guys have busy lives. And a lot of times there needs to be a lot of research on some of that unguided stuff.

And a guy that's got three kids and a job, he just may not have time to do it, but he still wants a great experience and maximize the tag. There's a lot of great outfitters out there and they can get you in great guys to be around. And some of the best outfitters that I've been with, I'm still friends with today. Harold Grindy in the Northwest Territories of Canada, a great friend of mine and the owner of Gannon River Outfitters. And I went up there with him years ago and that was an outfitted hunt. And just he, Harold has it all together. And there's plenty of outfitters like that in the Western US also that can help a guy maximize a tag and kind of his experiences do the thinking and the research for you upfront. And if getting a big animal is your goal and you don't have much experience, I would highly recommend finding an outfitter.

And there are a lot of good ones out there, but there are a lot of bad ones too. But you have to do your research. And how, let's say you've made that decision. I'm going to do it. And let's say you picked your outfitter and we could spend, and Jeff's talked about a little bit about picking outfitters and going on guided hunts on an earlier podcast. But there are still things, you know, and I'm talking, I guess, from an outfitter guide perspective as well. And so, but, but I know, I mean, we all have done this long enough that there are things that you need to do and should do, even though you've hired somebody, they're going to be doing your scouting. They're going to have your camp. They're going to have that. What are the things, and I'm not talking shoot your gun and your bow. Those are things that we don't, I guess, hopefully don't just have to mention because you, you

better be proficient with whatever weapon you're bringing out. But there are other things that, that, that you can do to prepare yourself to step into your hunt, to make the most of it on your end. Um, and not totally just say, all right, I'm here and I'm ready to be babysat for seven days. Well, it goes to a lot of what Jason, I've heard him say a lot through the years of just, you need to be able to control the things that you can control. There are a few things you can control your conditioning. You can be in shape when you get there. You can know your equipment and you can have a good attitude about it because there's going to be highs and lows of any hunt. And how many camps have we shared with guys that are, you know, they look like they ate a, ate a lemon because they didn't kill a buck on the first morning of the hunt. Sorry guys, this is hunting. We may be here two weeks. Yeah.

And, uh, but that's the stuff you can control. And I think you owe it to an outfitter and your guide to, to be in good shape, to know your equipment, to have a good attitude about it. And it, it, um, raises your, your chance of success exponentially. I think you need to be honest. You need to have a frank discussion. If you know you have some limitations, don't, don't, don't hide them. Have your outfitter find out about those when you step into camp, when he has no ability to react with either selecting a different guide or a different part of the unit that he planned on putting you in or whatever. Um, try to be upfront. And I'm talking, when I'm talking limitations, I'm either talking, you know, yeah, physical, um, maybe you have, you know, the dietary, maybe it's physical and dietary, uh, limitations. Be upfront.

Um, because if you say something, you know, usually you draw these tags two to four, five months ahead of time, there's a lot of time to prepare if you have things like that. If you have, um, you know, you know, sleep apnea or things like that. And, uh, you know, you're, you're showing up out there and you tend up being in a wall tent with two or three other hunters and you're, you're keeping them all awake and can't be, you know, get a good night's sleep. Cause you didn't maybe divulge some of that or didn't fly with your equipment. She thought it was too big and bulky. I don't know. I'm just talking about all things that I've had myself. I've seen in some of my camps that man really could have had a whole separate tent over for him. If I just knew that it was, you know, he was going to be that bad, you know, any, a lot

of things that be upfront with your outfitter, you know, be in shape and all those things that are in your control and your end, but don't, don't hide them either by, by choice or, or don't, don't keep something you think, you know, is a big part of how you want to hunt or how you like to hunt. If you're like, Hey, I love to sit and I don't want to hike that much and, and all that. And he puts you with the most aggressive hiker just cause he's, you're the one that booked first and you're ready to go crush them out and all that. And you're like, you know, I just like to sit water holes or whatever else. That's something that's my way to hunt out. You need to have a good dialogue with people and, and, and it can go, I guess, too far sometimes. And maybe you've seen this Rogers. Don't be whiny. Don't be whiny.

Don't think you need, this is not hunting at Disneyland and you're picking your animal and you're taking him home with you. You know what I mean? Or at a zoo, it's not, there's too many variables that are out of an outfitter's control. Even, even when they're doing their job. It just seems like if you have several guys in a camp, that dude, that dude is in every camp. The guy who's never happy. The guy who's upset. This is not what I signed up for. I didn't know I'd have to walk a mile today. And I thought he told me I'd see 800 deer in a week. It's, there's always that type of guy in camp. And, um, it's just soak up the experience, but you, you owe it to the outfitter to do the research on him and, and beforehand and know all that stuff and be honest with him. Like, like you said, Adam. And, um, so many of that, so often that doesn't happen. The guy shows up.

I can't tell you how many hunts that, that we've done or got it on. A guy will show up with a pair of boots in the box at the airport. And you guys have seen that. Please don't do that. If you're traveling, do not show up with a new pair of boots. Have those boots broken three or four months before the hunt. You know, to digress a little bit, when we talked about the guiding, guiding stuff a little bit and, and whatnot is like, I, I did a guided, guided hunt for brown bear, you know, this spring. And, and, and I was new to the area and, and I have to legally have a guide. And I understand that. But my point is, is I didn't know how to, the tide, how to read the tides and, and when to cross and when not to cross and being out after dark with brown bears all around and things that I might've been, you know, nervous about bears in general, you know, these guides

know it, they deal with it every day. And so they helped me feel like they helped me learn. Like I could go back and be a lot more effective, self-guided. Now I can't legally do that. But that's the same thing with here in the West is like you said, there's a lot of people that come out West. They don't really know what they're capable of. They don't know what they're capable of. They don't know what's normal. And yet you get a guy that kind of shows you the ropes. When you come back, you, you could be lethal, unguided. You know what I mean? Just learning the ropes, learning how you do things, learning when you glass, what you glass with, the gear you use and lots of things that, you know, there's just a lot of learning that comes with, with going guided and, and experiencing new things. Yeah, I agree with that.

And you can learn all that on guided hunts and your chance of success goes up. And I'm, I'm a fan of the guided hunt. You know, I'll, at times I'll, I'll, I'll do, um, I'll guide for an outfitter. Like we mentioned earlier, GT none. And, uh, it's just the stuff that we've seen there through the years and some of the hunters and the guys that repeat, they know what they know exactly what they're getting into. But the first year guys, it, it can be an eyeopening experience. You know, everything, when you're coming from the East and you go hunting the West, everything is bigger than what you read about, what you see on TV. It's, we're so used to everything being so compacted in, in the East, you know, I, I'll hunt on 160 acre a quarter and I can walk from one end to the other in 10 minutes. And, but in the West, I mean, you walk, you walk that far just to get away from your truck sometimes.

Yeah, that's right. Well, and it's a little bit like us, uh, when, you know, when Jason and I have had opportunity to go up North to Alaska, BC, Yukon, and our mountains, we think we got big mountains. You get up there and you realize, okay, these are, these are, they never end as far as I can see. I've been in an airplane for two hours and it was one after another for two hours. That's right. So it's a little bit like that when we go North, even Westerners go North for Easterners that hit the Western U S. But, um, so let's talk a little bit about, all right. So you're making that decision to go unguided. Um, and, and, and obviously I think there's a lot of things that we can talk about for the first time Western hunter. There are species, maybe mule deer, maybe some of the Western white tails and antelope where that's not biting off more than you can chew per se.

You can make those happen. And even elk in some cases, there's definitely plenty of instances of that. But let's talk about some of the things that you, I mean, obviously 20 something years ago when you started doing some of your Western hunts on your own and then throughout the last 20 plus years, what are things that you, that you either learned by sad experience or did right the first time or whatever. When you start looking at something from a research standpoint, networking, um, and then dealing with, all right, I'm going to come do this online. We talked a little bit about, Hey, you got to bring everything with you. It's a drive. It's a commitment. You have all your gear, but I'm talking about like breaking your unit down. How do you know where to go hunt? And you know, you know, this is not all private land.

Like when you and I went together and I make you do all the research because people aren't going to tell me anything, but they'll tell you everything. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. That's true. There's a lot of truth to that. And, uh, there's so many opportunities now to network and find out knowledge as compared to just a few, just a few years ago. Um, for example, I, one that, uh, really comes to my mind is I drew a sheep tag in Colorado quite several years ago. And, uh, I didn't have a network out there. So I put on one of the, uh, I put on one of the, uh, websites and I drew a sheep tag and, uh, like both site, both site.com. Yeah, it was both site. It was both site. You're right. It was both site. And I put a message on there. I drew the, uh, sheep tag and S 60 and, uh, looking for any information, anything, any access points, anybody could help me with.

And a guy, he, he sent me a message back on the both side and he said, call me. I hunted it last year. I'll tell you everything I know. And so I, I call the guy, he was a wealth of knowledge. His name is John Gottlob. And, uh, he lived, he, uh, lived right there in the unit. He put me in touch with all the private landowners for access. He had all his maps. He gave me everything. Well, John Gottlob is, uh, turned into a very close personal friend now. And he helped me on that hunt. I got a great ram and, uh, he was there to, to help me on that. And, uh, just, I networked into him and then fast forward six or seven years after that, John had moved to Montana and I drew a Montana round tag. Well, guess who the first guy I call is? What do you know about two 13? And, uh, then John got me hooked up there, but I found him just on the internet. Um, found that on the internet.

And that was, and that was a long time ago, back when Al Gore just invented the internet. That was right after that. Right. So now the internet's like social media, Instagram, Facebook. I mean, we've got the whole world. And I mean, I know to some extent you don't learn every deep, dark secret there, but the ability to network now, whether it be through social media, the internet websites, or through services like ours and our past member experience list. I mean, it's, it's never been a better way for a do it yourself, self-guided person to get information. There's more information than there's ever been. Yeah. Yeah. There is. And, uh, and, you know, there's, there's plenty of ways to get it. And I just remember an example. Like I know Jason, when we drew that, uh, unit one elk tag in Arizona, we were driving down the road. I said, Hey, just stop right here.

Let me go in and talk to his meat processor. And this guy's processing hundreds of elk a year. I bet he has a lot of it. I'm hiding in the truck drinking a PepsiCo. He stays in the truck. I go in and this guy, Oh yeah, you got to go down here. And what was it that we got detailed information from him? But I, I remember the guy telling us if you go down this road and there's a, he said, you, you can't see it. There's a little hidden road that turns back to the left and you can't see it. But if you, if you'll be looking for it, that'll get you back into that area. And it was just a little tidbit like that. Um, just a networking through him and through the years, some of the tags that I've drawn out West, I've got on the internet and found local taxidermists. Okay. Well, I drew a unit two 13 or the unit six tag. What, what can you tell me about access points?

You know, you, you don't go, well, where do the guys kill all the big bucks? I never start that way. Yeah. Same with the biologist. You don't call a biologist and say, where do I go to kill my three 80 bull? That's not how you lead into it. It's not going to work that way. Usually I'll call and introduce myself. Hey, I'm a fellow taxidermist too. I drew a, drew a great tag and in your area. And just wondering if you could tell me about some access or, you know, what kind of bucks to expect? What are you mounting each year? Um, what should I hold out for? And I think too, and unguided wise, Roger, and you're good at this is, is you're not scared to drive. You're not scared to come out and pre-scout, drive it, dovetail it into work, whatever you've got to do to come out and boots on the ground, so to speak.

So you're confident when you're visiting with guys, you know what you're talking about or places and whatnot. And so, and the people you're talking to know, you've done a little bit of work on your own. You're willing to work for it or, or, uh, you know, put so put forth some effort, not just be given everything. And so you've done that a lot. You've where you've come out and, and just, you know, and basically even you can live in the East, but you're proficient at going unguided in the West. Well, I think, you know, some of that is, see some trial and error and some of that I've learned from you guys. And a lot of my scouting trips, like pre-season type stuff, if I go out there, maybe nothing more than to learn how to access points in the area. Just, just drive. Just a ground truth, what you've already looked at on a map or been told, just see it with

your own eyes and have the, uh, have the apprehension erased. Like, okay, I've seen my unit. I know what it looks like now. It's not on a flat piece of paper. Like I've been burning through my eyeballs. Uh, I've said no matter how many maps you stare at, no matter how long you stay on Google earth, it's going to look different when you get there. And it also looks different than what you, uh, what you were thinking. And, uh, it was an example of flying to Las Vegas, rent a Jeep and are flying Albuquerque, rent a Jeep and go right around for two days. You fly in on a Friday night, you drive the entire weekend, fly home on a Monday. I miss two days of work. Yeah. Buy, buy the, buy the extra insurance. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. But I, um, you just, just the road system in some of these units is so confusing. And if you do, if you go out and if you're only scouting three days before the season and you're two days, you're just trying to figure out the road, you've almost burned all your scouting time just to how to figure out how to maneuver in the unit. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about, um, you know, dealing with other hunters, like what a shock it is. You'll see something in the summer and then you come back and you're in the seat during the season. And I mean, you're going to be dealing with people and that's the one thing you can't prepare for. Contrast that with your normal Easterners way of hunting. I mean, there's public land and national forest and back East, but a lot of white tail hunters hunt. Have it to their own ground. Least ground.

And they see another boot track and they put a bullet in the gun for another reason. Oh man. That's, that's a good question because everything in the East is such a controlled environment. You know, I, I don't, I don't, I don't chamber around, but I do know when I see an odd boot in the Creek, an odd boot track in the Creek in Southern Iowa on, on my place. Your blood pressure goes up. Wait a minute. That track is not there. And that's not my buddy's track. So I've been, but everything is so controlled in the East and it's such a small footprint of where you're hunting. You can control and look out for that in the West. It's not that way. Everything is big. So many things you're not in control of. And back to the point of going out and scouting during the summer, late summer, you see all these pristine areas and you drive for days and you don't see people. You don't see other vehicles.

Then you go back to hunt in October and there are dudes everywhere. And that turned into Proville. Yeah. That's, that's what just blew my mind. Like, where did they come from? And the odd thing, you know, for us Eastern hunters is that if there's, if there's four of us in camp, there's four of us hunting. That's just the way it works. There's no other people. And you go to Arizona, there's one dude. That's got the tag. He's got grandma, granny, you know, his aunts, uncles, cousins, neighbors. He used grandma's points to get the tag. And then he's enlisted the entire family, extended family. This is basically a family reunion. Yeah. It's like a little city. It's a city of people. And I'm glad you picked Arizona because that sounds like Utah, but you said Arizona, so we'll go with it. Well, either way, Utah hasn't been real kind to me on tags.

So that, that's why I don't have much experience in Utah. But, um, that's, that's a different thing for us guys coming from the East is it's a, it's a much more controlled environment. There's very few hunters on the, on the, the ground that you can control. But when you get out East, it is a different game and drama will happen. I mean, if you're hunting on public ground and there's quite a few tags there, you know, like a sheep hunt or moose hunt or something, you can get away from the people. You're probably not going to have drama. You're on a deer hunt and an elk hunt, even in some of the, uh, tough draw units, you're going to have some drama. Arizona strip, Henry mountains. There's more drama in those two places than anywhere in there. The most controlled deer tag units in the West. And if, if you remember chasing when, when you and I hunted Arizona unit one for elk, I

took the worst cussing I ever took in my life from an 18 year old girl. I remember that. Let's hear about that. Oh my gosh. Now that you say it, you ripped me. I need to keep a journal. I don't know how you remember all this stuff. Let's hear about it. What'd you do? Just shoot, shoot over her head or what? There was an elk bugling on the mountain side and it was, it was a big bull. If you remember Jason, it was a big six point with a big, like 18 inch kicker coming off the side. And I was, I was in there only, you know, I was a hundred yards and he was up in cows and I was just thinking, I'm just going to hang around. Maybe he moves around and makes a mistake or something. And I'm just sitting there and I hear a cow call from a distance and this cow calls getting closer and closer. And I look and the girl is behind the bow and her boyfriend is about 70 yards behind her.

And he's just cow calling. I think that they think they're going to walk right into this elk. Like the whole herd leaves, they all leave. And I go out there and I'm just kind of like, have my hands up. Like what's going on? And she said, they winded you. They winded you. You ran those elk off and they could see her. She was in the wide open and she went on the barrage of cussing me. And I mean, she just bombed you for 30 minutes. Oh my gosh. And I, I, I just kind of stood there and took it. I thought, you know, I've got daughters. I got a wife. I was shocked. You stood and took it. I asked you, I'm like, dude, you didn't even stand up for yourself. I'm going to stand here and touch you. She crushed you, Roger. She crushed you, Roger. I stood there and took it, but I was thinking, honey, I'm not going to do anything to you,

but I may stomp your boyfriend's butt into a mud puddle over there. But, uh, but he, he's probably still over there blowing on the cow call, but it's still, it was, uh, it's just drama. And you expect that. Well, the next day we went into another area. I never saw another hunter, never saw a boot track, but it, you gotta be prepared for something like that. And us Eastern guys, we're not prepared for that. Well, and I think, yeah, there's factors that, that lead, that you need to keep in mind when it comes to this in general, you'll book a guided hunt for five to seven days. If you're going to do a hunt on your own, you better plan for more time, because if you only got five to seven days and you're self-guided to learn it all, you're going to chew through like Jason said, I do this on my own when I go out of state sometimes. Well, I'll do a hunt for eight or nine days.

And when it's over, if I could hit rewind and take all of what I learned during that time and do it again, I would crush the place. But that's just normal. That's normal. And you're going to need more days. I'm not talking about, oh, you can get lucky and kill a great deer elk the first two days and go home. I'm talking about generally and the average time you're going to have to take more time, more days to learn it, figure it out, have the things like you said happen to you. Don't get down. Keep after it. Regroup. Move. Adapt. I guess that's the best word to describe it. Matt, that's, I'd never really thought of it quite that way, Adam. But if you're planning on a seven day hunt and you're on public land with a considerable amount of tags in there, you can probably just kind of bet on losing a day or two of that hunt to some type of drama. Just something. Yeah. It's just, I don't know.

Yeah. It's just something is going to happen. You're going to have a flat. You're going to have somebody that blocks the road. You're going to get cussed out in the dark. And sometimes in these Western units, I mean, people are just so much more aggressive. Well, it's public land and there's one winner, Roger. There's only one winner. Yeah. That's the way they look at it. It could be a cattleman. And these people from bringing, yeah, bringing his sheep and cows off the mountain in two or three hundred through your canyon. I've had that happen on hunts. And you're just like, this day's ruined. You're there. They're yelling at their cow dogs, cracking whips and whistling. And you're like, really? This is happening today with a buck down in front of me somewhere right now? I mean, you're done. You can't predict it. So many things that you cannot control.

There are a few little things you can control. You've got to be in control of those and just learn to deal with the things that are going to, the drama that's going to ensue because it is guaranteed. This podcast brought to you by Outdoor Edge Knives and Tools. Incredible knife system. They've got replaceable blades and they don't break on you. They're a significant knife with a significant backbone and a long, sharp blade. So anyway, we've kind of partnered with them. Appreciate them and their support. And if you need an incredible replaceable blade knife, you know, definitely look at Outdoor Edge. So anyway, what about, let's talk a little bit about, you know, I guess technology. Are you, you know, are you using the Onyx maps and dealing with all that now that, you know, all that's available and of course the mapping. I still am a fan of paper maps.

I mean, I do paper, I have electronic and the phone and I mean, a little of everything, GPS chips and all that. But obviously you're doing the same thing, I think. I love the Onyx maps and I like big paper where I can throw it out on the hood of the truck and look and get general stuff. But I love being able to zoom in on the Onyx maps. And yeah, I use the technology, especially on that. I have a, I still have the old Garmin Rhino. Yeah, that's fine. I don't know if you still have yours. Oh, I do. We got them. Yeah, we got them. And mine, of course, yours is the same way. I think the antenna, the rubber's come off and I got this little wiry antenna sticking out and it's not waterproof anymore. And I haven't protected the screen good through the years. So the screen looks bad. But man, that thing has saved me a lot of steps and helped on better hunts. And I've used it everywhere I go.

And now with the land ownership stuff that you can get on there, also from some of these more Midwest type hunts and some of the whitetail hunts I do and seeing the landowners, that's been a huge value to me. Yeah. Of trying to find the landowner. I thought, okay, well, I know the guy's name is John Doe. And I'm going to figure out where he lives and talk to him about his property. I'm going to become his best friend. Yeah. The answer is usually no. But every once in a while, the answer is yes. And we've killed some great bucks in Iowa by knocking on doors. I don't know if that's necessarily still the case, but we knocked on doors several years ago and secured great spots and have been producing giant bucks ever since. Well, and I mean, I don't want to get off on it too bad, but you've even hunted places as small as 20 acres. You know. Yeah. Yeah.

We won't, we won't get off on that too much, but it's just a quick, uh, one of those guys that gave me access to this place in Iowa. I, I've, I went into a little spot behind his house and it was just shredded with big rubs, which all this Eastern hunters, it gets us excited. I hung a stand up there and the next morning I got in the stand and, uh, I could see a lot down through the woods. And my first thought was that's, that's a flashlight down there. And I got pulled my binos up and looked and I could see the guy through his kitchen window making coffee. And I thought, man, I am truly right behind his house. And, uh, but it was such a small parcel of land. And then 10 minutes later, 160 inch buck walked up on a suicide mission. I shot him at eight yards right there behind the guy's house. Went and had to gut him in the front yard. Probably spilled his coffee when the gunshot went off.

Yeah. He ran away from the house, which was a good thing. So is there, what do you, is there any secrets to success, Roger? Like just flat out secret to success here in the West? I don't, I don't think there is a secret. And I've learned that a lot of that from just like hunting with you guys too. And, you know, sharing a lot of camps with you guys. And I guess the thing that I've learned about the secret that about the big mule deer that Jason Carter kills is there is no secret. There, there is no method that you're not telling everybody about it. When I listen, you tell these guys how to hunt the West. I know that's exactly how you're killing those bucks. There is no big secret to doing it. Well, the difference is you do it repeatedly. You don't quit and you adapt. It's like there's 14 different methods to kill a big mule deer. They vary by hunt, by unit, by season, by rut timing.

You better have them all in your arsenal and you better not quit. And you better just be able to know when to move from plan A to B to F and, and keep, and just keep at it. And it's a grind. And yeah, so that's probably what you're, I don't know. I think that's, yeah, that's one thing is I see, especially being able to hunt with you guys through the years is that, you know, a lot of guys in these things of hunts and a day and week type periods, like six, eight day type stuff is an extended hunt. You know, some of these bucks or some of these rams that you guys get after, you've got 25, 30, 40 days after some of these animals. And that's hard for us Eastern guys to understand that. Well, and it's hard, we realize that some of those hunts, that's not practical for most people to come do. And I guess to some extent people say, well, yeah, if I had that much time, I'd get it done.

And there's been times that that's not been enough, even for Jason. We had that hunt. You came out on us with this, that archery and I think I hunted 12 or 13 and Jason in like 16 days, archery deer and we got school and that's a long hunt. And we, I don't even want to redo on that. We took it on the chin. No, I don't want it. But what, uh, what about, uh, Roger, let's talk about packing gear. You know, I know a lot of Eastern hunters, you know, they're used to having clean clothes every single day. And I mean, you know, there's a lot of times where you just pack too much, uh, you know, at times and whatnot. So what's important, what's on your checklist, what's important. And, uh, is there any, you know, little hidden gems or secrets you can tell us that maybe Adam and I overlook cause it's just part of what's in our truck today for summer scout.

I, I think you've already said one of the most important things and that is a checklist. Having a checklist is very important. Most Eastern hunters, myself included, tend to always bring too much when we're hunting the West or be a guided or unguided. We tend to bring way too much stuff. I think a checklist helps on that. If you're doing the first hunt out West, your checklist is going to be too big. But all of these guys I've talked to, especially like on the hunter next door, a lot of those guys keep checklists and they realize that they took a lot of stuff the year before that they didn't use. So every year their checklist just gets smaller and smaller and you realize there's very few things that you really use. You got optics, you got rain gear and, uh, clothes. You don't need many clothes out West. And you guys can probably speak on this.

The hunts are much more mobile than people are used to in the East. You're moving a lot of times. So you don't have to have as many clothes. Plus the seasons are earlier. I've, I've tell a lot of hunters on most Western hunts, you're going to be cold more than you are hot. But for a guy from Mississippi and he's going to Colorado, he's pretty sure he's going to be wading through snow in September. That doesn't happen. You're going to be sweating a lot more than you're shivering a lot more. So it doesn't take many clothes. And if you're going with an outfitter, uh, make sure the outfitter can give you a good checklist. And there's plenty of good checklists that you can resource on the internet and read about your membership. You know, you, I know you guys talk about some of the stuff that guys need on these hunts, but it's just not much. I don't have anything real secretive that I carry.

The one thing that I will always carry is extra socks. And I've just had seen so many hunts go bad because of feet problems. Yeah. Feet problems. Yeah. You, you get blisters, you get sore feet. I carry extra socks, but I've learned it doesn't take many clothes to go on a Western hunt. And, uh, there's nothing real dramatic about my, my pack list. I'm a big fan of the Hillenburg tents. I, I like the Kinetrek boots. Well, your next, uh, your next article in Epic Outdoors magazine, Roger, let's, let's have it be the checklist. Let's, let's call it the checklist and let's talk about gear. And then maybe we publish an actual checklist of gear, your, your checklist of gear. Yeah. And maybe we can do it, you know, a regular out West hunt and then a backpack trip to Canada or something maybe, or we could do a part one, part two. Sound good? Yeah. Yeah. That's great.

I've, uh, that, that, uh, checklist of my tag applications that you were making fun of earlier. I also keep a checklist on, uh, or I keep an Excel spreadsheet on all my checklists too. If it wasn't for Excel, Raj, you wouldn't even be able to hunt. I think word, word is just a, uh, a waste of good hard drive space. Everything, everything belongs in Excel. You're probably good at math. Are you good at math? That's my degree. There you go. Is it? Holy cow. I didn't know that. I didn't know that. Yeah. We talked several times today about, uh, boots and, uh, specifically Kennetrek boots and keeping your feet taken care of on a hunt. And, uh, we actually did a, uh, YouTube episode on this with, uh, the Kennetrek folks about taking care of your feet and things like that. So check it out on, uh, Epic Outdoors YouTube page.

We'd also like to thank, uh, QU for being, uh, another sponsor of ours here at Epic Outdoors and this podcast. They make great gear from packs and clothing and everything like that. Check them out at QU.com. Their gear is incredible no matter what kind of Western hunt you're going to be going on. Well, let's see. Um, we're, Roger, do you want to talk about, uh, travel or, or, you know, anything like that that we might take, take, take for granted? Yeah. You know, we, we mentioned it. I think it's on that earlier podcast too, about the, the Eastern hunter has to think traveling out West. You've got a minimum one day travel. And a lot of these guys, especially up and down the East coast are going to have two, um, just knowing that that can, that's tiring in itself. I do not like to sit behind a wheel for a steering wheel for two days.

And you don't want to be just exhausted when you get there. So you either build in more time or you decide to fly. And if you decide to fly, then you can't carry all your gear. So you may have to go out. There's a lot of trade-offs on that. I, when I drew my Montana around tag, I, I had to drive to Western Montana and that was a two day drive for me. And I just remember, man, I was just exhausted when I got there, even though the adrenaline of the tag was saying go, go, go, I was tired when I got there. Wow. Yep. Yeah, exactly. Well, and you guys don't eat for you guys to hunt West, even in some of the most extreme guys, uh, drives that you guys have, you're still less than a day's drive away. Eight to 12 hours. And we're about any state, any part of any state really. And a lot of these guys from the East, you know, they're driving 12 hours and they're still not even into the Midwest yet.

Yeah. So it's, it's a, it's something that has to be factored in as drive time. Once you get these tags or decide that you want to go on one drive time versus, versus flying. Well, and driving that home again, if you're going to do a self-guided hunt out West and you've got a day or two drive and you're worn out, and then you think you're going to get there and start figuring it out. You better plan for three to five more days than you think you need, um, to do, to do it justice. Listen, I realize everybody's schedule, there's work and family and all that, but it's just, um, we value these tags out West, like, like gold to some extent and all, not all tags do we value that way. But when you get a good one, value it like it is. If you had to go purchase that tag on the open market, an elk tag for $10,000 in the landowner unit or 15,000 or deer tag for 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 plus thousand.

And some of these elite deer tags, that's, that's what you've got the equivalent of. And, uh, don't, don't under, uh, under prepare and under think through what you actually got to do to do it right. Control the things you can control. And, uh, a lot of it, like Adam says, the value is unbelievable and maybe even priceless. They might not even be available to buy like your, you know, our, our tags in Arizona. You can't buy those, you know? And so, and you can never draw them again, most likely. So, yeah. I think one thing you'd said, Adam, made me think is factoring in that drive home because you're not going to be driving. You're not going to be covering ground on the way home like you did going out there. It's not nearly as exciting. You're driving home with a unit 40 elk tag still in your pocket. And, you know, oh gosh, I got 18 hours to drive to get home.

You're just not going to cover as much country. You're on life support driving home. You're motivated to go see your wife and kids and you're just, you're, you're drained. Hopefully, hopefully motivated to see your wife. I'm motivated. Hey, anything else, Roger, as we wrap it up? Anything that we, that you thought we maybe should cover or things that have kind of crossed your mind? Well, I think one thing that I was, I've been thinking about is you see more and more articles on these solo Western hunts. And I've had so many friends from back East that have tried to, attempted to do those as those are really got kind of glorified over the last few years of the do it yourself, solo type hunt. And I would caution a guy, if you're considering one of those, know what you're getting into. Cause a lot of my friends that have done that, they have never gone and been by themselves

in silence for six or seven days. Yeah. And that it's, it's not for the faint of heart. And I would even contend some of the guys that write these glorious stories about doing that. They're not doing many of these on their own either. Yeah. Um, there, there's usually some other guy or some other human that they can interact with around these camps. And I've just had so many friends over the last five years that, that drew a good tag in the West and decided they, they want to go solo and it's going to be a do it yourself deal. And four days later, they're back in Arkansas or what happened oil, the area was a lot bigger than I thought. I didn't research that very well. And one guy was just, just honest. He said, I have never heard it that quiet at night. I didn't hear a sound. I couldn't even hear an airplane flying over. He said, it drove me absolutely bonkers.

I never thought there was that many stars up there. I figured they were all spaceships looking down at me. UFOs looking at me. I got scared and went home. And he said, you know, he wouldn't hear it coming my way. No, it's a good point. It really is. It would get real quiet at night. Then he said, then you hear a stick break. He said, he knew that was a grizzly that was going to kill him. And, you know, there hadn't been a grizzly in Southern New Mexico in a hundred years. I thought you were going to say Wyoming. Oh my gosh. But, you know, it gets in their head like, okay, I'm going to be the first American casualty by a wolf. That wolf is going to eat me. And these guys, their mind tends to run away with them. And I've warned a lot of buddies about that. About that. And it's really. And we enjoy doing it with people.

Like, we enjoy going with friends and, and enjoy, you know, sharing a harvest. You know. Yeah. I enjoy the camaraderie. And I've enjoyed it with you guys. I remember that bad Nevada deer hunt you guys were on. I laughed as hard as I have ever laughed in my life. Several different times on that hunt. I don't even remember the stories. But I think I remember Adam. Oh, they were reference. I remember those. I don't have a good memory. But that was too close. A truckload of those carbonated beverages. Oh. My brother. That was their one. Yeah. That ate the concrete out of my garage. There was. One of them blew up or spilled. And it did a little S in my garage. And that S stands today in my garage. But, you know, I remember a lot of stuff like that. And I remember the friends. That's what. You know, I want the big animal. I want to put the big critter on the wall.

You know, as much as the other guy. But as I get older, I really find value in the friendships and the camaraderie. And just the characters that I've got to meet through the years. Well, there's a. And that's a very good point. Because I often. Daily here at the office. When I talk to people. And they call us. And they're excited. They drew a great tag. And you're asking them. All right. How can we help you? Are you going to plan on doing this on your own? Or are you going to go an outfitter? If you go an outfitter. You give them some options. And they go down the road. They pick one. They go. If they're going to do it on their own. Usually the next question. Especially if it's a tag of. I'll say consequence. And what I mean by that is. Epic proportions. Yeah. It's a really good tag. I mean, I'm not talking about a deer tag. You can draw every single year. A general tag somewhere.

I'm talking about a tag that really deserves their attention. Is. Do you have a good support network of family or friends? Is somebody going to come help you on that hunt? Because if you're going to do self-guided. That pretty much has to happen. Otherwise, I'll change my tone and say, you know, you better get some help. Because if you really think, no, I don't really have any friends. And I'm just going to come to it. I'm like, you really. I think you're setting yourself up to be disappointed. What you're reading on paper on the unit is not likely to happen as well when you're all by yourself. And there's satisfaction in hunting self-guided. But at the same token, you're going to push yourself harder when you have somebody else pushing you at camp at night. Hey, we'll get them tomorrow. Let's go break it up here. Just somebody to talk to at a camp trailer at camp at night.

Even if your buddy's off on his own, helping you look from a different area, it just keeps the ball rolling better than let discouragement creep in. There's something to be said for that. That's a good point, Adam. Keeping your attitude up is a lot easier when you've got a buddy with you. Those solo hunts, you can let your mind go to a bad place pretty quick when there's nobody there with you. And I watched a kid do that a few years ago on one of those Wheeler Peacons. He had drawn the sheep tag, and he was hunting by himself. He wanted to be by himself. We visited with the guy in the parking lot, and he wanted to be by himself. And I just watched him through the spotting scope a couple days. And, man, this kid, I was watching him walk past sheep, you know, good rams. And he was not seeing them. And I was watching how fast he was walking. You could tell the guy was just kind of frantic.

And I don't know if he ever got around, but the week that we were there, he never got one. I thought, you know, what would he have done if he had a buddy just kind of helping him, slowing him down, helping him look, you know, some camaraderie at camp at night, just helping you cook food and heat up water and stuff is a value. And it's like your goat hunt. You know, we hike for how many miles to get into good, awesome, amazing goat country. We don't see any, right? And so if you're by yourself, pretty soon you're like, geez, I could be hunting gators in Arkansas. You make the mistake of turning your phone on, you get 14 emails and something at work, and then your wife, and pretty soon you're like, oh, hell, I'm just driving home. Yeah, your kid's like, I miss you, Daddy. And Mama's needing you. And pretty soon you're like, nah, I didn't like goats. I didn't like goats anyway.

Yeah, they're only spikes. I've had so many friends come back to Arkansas two or three days later with the tag in their pocket in the last five years or so. I just tell them, do not go on your own. It's not worth it. You know, get somebody to go with you or hire an outfitter. You know, you need some human camaraderie. You do. It keeps you going. And it's fun. It's tough to do these on your own. Phone a friend. It's fine. Phone a friend. There you go. We should do a hire a friend business. You know, hire a companion. We get going here. We're going to come up with a $500 idea one way or another. So just like a hunting escort business? Where are you going, Carter? I wasn't going down that road. Well, I'm just saying, like, you know, somebody to keep your spirits up. Yes. Tell you jokes. Yes. Boil one. Tell you jokes. A motivational speaker for your Western heart. Help me make my sandwich.

Break bread. Yes. Okay. A doctor fill to go with you on your hunt. Jeez. All right. All right. Anything. I think we're going nowhere. Oh, yeah. Anything else, Rog, that we should bring up or crossed your mind? I think we need to work on those checklists, and we'll get those in. Let's do that. Let's do it. Get those out to the guys. Let's do it. Let's do a part one, part two, or else page one and two, and then three and four. You know, a heavy backpack versus just coming out and doing something that you have access to a vehicle. Yeah. We can do some stuff as simple as Midwest whitetail. We don't care about those, Roger. Well, you don't. I know you don't. You don't even know what they look like. Let's stick to west of Kansas.

There's still one. Yes, sir. Well, I keep bringing these whitetail up, like Kansas and Idaho and eastern Colorado. I think it gives these eastern hunters a good transition. You know, rather than just going full blown out, Utah elk hunt, you know, spend $10,000 and hike for seven or eight days and don't get on your burnout. Go get a little bit of western flavor. You know, like I know you guys have talked about it some, like those Idaho whitetails. It's not very hard to kill a 130-inch whitetail in northern Idaho on public land. It's not very hard. And that's something that some of these guys should consider. And you can do that on a very econo budget. Yeah. Yeah. I've done it. Fly into Spokane, drive up, and it's a great hunt. Yeah. Sounds good. Okay. Appreciate your time. Roger's been great. Your perspective's, you know, great. Probably echoed by a lot of other listeners.

So we appreciate your time you spent with us here on this. I guess one thing in closing here, we talked about these hunter next story. No more Lady Gaga stories. No, no more of those. But, you know, one thing we talked about, Jason, is there's a lot of great hunters out there that we don't know about that have great stories. Any guys can expose us to some of those guys, you know, like the ones that we've come across, like the Ron Jenkins or Harold Farenbrook out of Colorado that you guys included in that hunter next door. I like talking to those guys. We can put it on paper. There's some great stories out there that we'd all like to hear about. And if somebody listening to this has those guys, call Jason Adam, let them know, and we'll get them in. We did a Ron Jenkins podcast. We just, it's going to require a little editing.

He's a fascinating guy with a fascinating story. Oh, Chris hasn't found a spare two weeks to deal with that one. He's one of the greats. We are going to publish that at some point. But I agree with you. Anybody out there that's got some, you know, people like stories. And they're learning from these stories as much as anything. So I like that. I appreciate you throwing that out there. So thanks again, Roger. Appreciate it. Thank you, fellas. All right. Thanks, Roger. Thank you.