The Epic Outdoors crew answers readers’ questions.

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Anything to do with Western big game.

Welcome to the epic outdoors podcast powered by under armor.

Hey everybody. Jason Carter, Adam Bronson, the entire epic outdoors crew. Well, a good chunk of him. Wyatt. We got you here. Yeah. It’s about a Monday. So we went ahead and did a podcast and figured you could make it.

Tuesday, but I was here Monday.

You were long.

Time, long time.

Somebody else comes.


In Devin. Devin. What were you doing over the weekend that made it where you couldn’t work on Monday? Ah,

In a time I got here just a little hour, late hour and a half, maybe shuffled in, I shuffled on in here.

With mustard all over your lip.


On a Frenchs mustard box. What, what mustard works best for cramping. Okay. Now we wanna talk about this Devon a little bit. Never have we heard of it? Bronson we’ve hiked out.

Never heard Cadillac. I always thought.

Chris had camp cramping going on in the middle of this clown of epic proportions. Never heard of somebody cramp as much as Chris, John, Chris. Remember Chris was creatine up.

Well, that was back when, like when,

When we scouted. Yeah. And he about Jan went in and he about didn’t make it out. I was nervous for him. And then, and then Devin brings to light a home remedy. We’ve never even heard of before. Go ahead Devin.

Well, we did this Spartan race,

Like a, like a mountain.

America. Yeah. It was at snow base.

Ski resort, like a tough.

Mud. Yeah. There’s 25 obstacles.

Tough mud.

There was some mud. Yeah. Luckily at the very end, but we were going along and we did all these obstacles and we’re probably about two miles in and my brother calf just cramps and he boom, on the ground. You know how it feels? Yeah. Terrible. Usually it’s in my hamstrings, but he’s sitting there and this lady’s like, are you cramping? And he’s like, yeah. And she’s like, well, here’s a mustard packet. And he just S slurs it down and looks at me. He’s like that tasted amazing.

My body needed that.

Pure mustard. That’s disgusting.

I like mustard,

But yeah, three, four minutes. He was good to go.

It was trapped my trailer. I’ve cramped. My legs where I’m crying. I mean, I’m not crying at.

Night sleeping.

Yeah, just you. I don’t know why I don’t drink enough water. No, you know,

That’s all the electrolytes you lose. Like, I, I killed the buck last year and put it all in one pack frame and started to go. And I made it about 50 yards. Your quad, both my hamstrings were just every step fire. Yeah. Now I didn’t have, now I’m gonna have mustard pipes.

Oh, you’re I’m gonna have an entire bottle.

Of it. And after the race we went to eat and I, I did, I tried it and it tasted, I hate mustard, but like, I, it was weird. I don’t.

Know why. So whyt Google search or.

Wikipedia expert Wyatt or whoever, whatever story she turned.

To did a safari search on his new Wazu iPhone fact.

Checker. Yeah.

IPhones are still shit. I can.

Guess. There’s no other way to say it.

Okay, go ahead.


Just, we’re gonna go with, but.


There’s no other way to say it. So we might have to leave that on the podcast here. I think it’s fine. But we were gonna wonder, okay, we can talk about this, but I do want to talk about the pros and cons of the iPhone. Like you hate the alarm. I, I don’t know why, but I want you to start thinking about some of the things you.

Hate about, well, Samsung, they give you the option. They’re like, oh, you’re up? You’re on your phone? Like, would you like to snooze your alarm iPhone? No. Option. It just like here.

We’re it’s gonna ring regard.

Samsung. The Samsung get knew. You were awaken. It wouldn’t even do an alarm. It just,

Yeah, it did. Well, it always ask you, your alarm’s gonna go off in seven minutes. Which like,

But sometimes why like turned off, I’m setting alarms for all kinds of stuff, picking kids up at the park or going over here, picking N Ashley up from work or what? You know what I mean? And so I think these iPhones are made for work and folk. What do you think.

I don’t know about? And you could set an alarm for the future too. You could be like, oh, let’s have this one go off next.

Okay. Thursday. So if I want one on next Thursday, I would say I would set the alarm. You’d have, and to repeat every Thursday, then Thursday comes around and it hits. It’d.

Have to go off the first Thursday, then it’d go off the next Thursday. Yeah. Unless you’d have.

Who’s setting the alarm for two weeks ahead of, well, I.

Don’t know, like something, not a different, if we have an appointment for a podcast on a Friday and it happens to be Monday, you would set in a recurring alarm for Friday and Friday comes up. It hits you, turn it off. You never hear it again. Well,

You would tell the fall.

Friday calendar.

Calendar. That’s what.

I did. Let me talk about that. You hate yesterday. It was yesterday. I had an alert that was Lindsay’s birthday. Who’s that? On my phone, come up an alarm. I don’t know who that Lindsay is. Then I have get west the keys somebody’s putting, somebody is putting stuff.

Somebody has your,


Calendar, apple ID.

I have no idea has to. It’s a problem. I need to solve it happen. Yesterday.

Has to, you need to change your apple ID.

I was time. I was getting John’s stuff on my phone though. And he was remember he was doing his family stuff.

Well, because epic shared calendar. Okay. Now that’s the other thing. You have a shared calendar with somebody,

Those person, a guy I’ve never heard of.

Before. Yeah, no. Yeah. But they’re putting that notification in the calendar. Your wife might be doing it, right? I, I don’t know. I, and then you guys have a shared calendar and it’s updating your calendar.

I have to tell my wife sometime don’t put their.

Stuff. I think the iPhones, just so smart that the use Samsung users aren’t used Towell.

I, I think it’s maybe the complete opposite.

Because I, I mean, whoever invented the, the whatever airdrop.


I mean, kudos to them. Huh?

They have one or two. Alright. Features.

After just going on vacation. And you have hundreds of photos, which my wife and.

Her, you can airdrop ’em in minutes. Yeah.

They’re done. Oh yeah. Videos at.

Full, full resolution. How does this happen? Air to, and you don’t have to have service.

And it doesn’t. And the other thing, it doesn’t go into your text. You don’t have to text them. Right. Which then takes up memory because it’s in your text log. Yes. You airdrop ’em it just goes there.

But these guys would continue. You could use an app such as WhatsApp or an airdrop app, right? There’s an airdrop app for Samsung.

There’s a way Samsung to Samsung. Yeah.


But nobody owns a Samsung. And so what, good’s the app.

That’s exactly why I have an iPhone is cuz no one here will convert.

So now we can see the bubbles.

Why I’m going back. Why.

The bubbles are nice. Oh yeah. That delivered is nice. I know that person had it delivered to their phone. They’ve they’ve intentionally ignored me.

Arch is not. Okay. Well these guess we’re gonna have some greens and blues back in the office. Sounds like,

Yeah. One thing that did bother me, I was in the Hills. We were at a kill scene and you know how those are sacred kill scenes are kind of sacred. This,

When you lost your phone and.

Found we were, it was a little bit of competition. There was some other glass that didn’t glass, the buck we smashed. Okay. We smashed the buck, we take a picture, I go to airdrop it. And another dude’s.

Was close enough.

Was close enough that it came in on my airdrop. How far that was an option from you. They have to be within yards.

So, you know, somebody’s just right there.

Yeah. And then all of a sudden I’m like somebody, somebody is right here and I didn’t recognize the picture. It was a little profile pick. And I’m like, and I look around and then pretty soon it was gone. I was like,

Becky got one.

Of those. It was, it was odd. It kind of changed the mood at the kill scene. It was a little bit odd.

My wife got one of those, you know what I mean? Yeah. My wife got on a cruise ship of this. Somebody airdropped her that picture.

Well, so when I was on plane and I was like, she.

Just gets this air drop.

I was on a plane and I was airdropping Jen. And I was like, there’s 14 options of people. The airdrops something I could airdrop just to funny, just something funny. I don’t know.

Sets of people, some memes.

Why not? Yeah. And then, you know, you’d lighten people’s moods and there again, iPhone’s making people happy. Why, but back to the, I D if you could make w.

Happen, the mustard question is acidic gas, acid mustard contains.

SOIC gas did say yes, that’s a valid.

Yes. Yes. Yellow mustard is the only type,

The only type.

The work type of mustard. So.

I’m wondering about these packets, Bron and you know how we went and got honey packets for the LAN. Some of it’s fake honey. Like it’s not real real, honey. So I’m wondering about these, these mustard packets are there, is there mustard packets that I.

Think Mustard’s mustard. You do that mustard. I think if you get gray PON, it’s probably not what Wyatt’s talking about. Right?

All I know is yellow. Yellow. If you had a little mustard packet stand at the top of those Hills,

You were you’d.

Sell. What if you bucks a pop? What.

If you bought the little 79 cent? You’d 10 ounce must just.

Is a SQUI. Mustard is squeeze.

That’s the American dream right there. You have to still having an idea, following it through to fruition and then putting cash in your pocket.

Okay. Second.

Question. I want put this into perspective.


Is one of those cost at Walmart. They’re like 79 cents. Carter’s not.

A lot of profit. And you do a dollar, a squirt dude. Smartest thing ever buy low sell high Bronson. Yeah.

Second question about the mustard packet though. Well, I guess it might be two,

Was it another contestant or like a person line judge,

If you will. It was another contestant. Yeah. Okay, sir. Whatever.

Where did said mustard packet come from? Where does one where?

Okay. We talked. About’s demented. Mine. Hold on. I have a.

Fanny pack.

The last podcast we talked about, Josh’s demented. Mine. Where are you going with?

I’m just thinking, like.

I had a back pack, just.

Pulled out of her bra. Like.

I had a, where keep a, she had a Fanny pack. I had a candle back, like a little tiny.

It was a dude sweaty back pocket. That’s what I was thinking was.

Just, if it was just stuck in your fat.

Slur it down either way, guarantee it. He does not. It could have came from.

Not how not. Like he had put a roller duct tape around your body and underneath it has little packets everywhere.

So Wyatt came up with an idea. Maybe we do an epic trip, but tough muttering. All of us go compete.

No, that wasn’t my idea. I don’t know where that idea come from, but.

Broughton. No, no,


Not in, it could be like the total archery challenge. You know, it could be kind of a tradition. We go up there and do some stuff.



Injuries before hunts. Right? Adam, we discussed this when a bike was in the parking lot.

The other.

Why Bronson and I heard I wasn’t here wouldn’t even get on an electric bike for fear. He might hurt an ankle or a twist.


Something. I didn’t, was this a normal e-bike why was a little bit of a souped up one, right? More like a motorcycle.

It was pretty quick. Yeah. More like an electric motorcycle.

These guys said, Josh, it popped a wheelie with you on it, right? Oh.

Yeah. Yeah.


And I just, it was foreign and I had an audience and I just, this.

You nothing good could.


I have little voices in my head said, don’t.

This is gonna cost me a sheep.

It’s gonna cost me blown knee in the parking lot.

Because, because I don’t have to pedal. I don’t know what,

Why it’s Wyatt’s response to going and running. One of these was, if you guys happen to ever see me running,

You better run. Cause something, something bad wrong.


The truth.

Right there. When did you run last?

I don’t even remember high school. It’s I’ve ran since high school. They gotta throw a treadmill downstairs. They run on a little bit. You do not max speed type stuff. Do a little jog here.

And there. You do a walk.


A little faster than a walk. Like speed walk, speed. Walk. Yeah. Speed walk, pick up.

Out of that. That excuse doesn’t work. Cuz if you don’t do the stuff, you just do 30 burpees.

If I.

Don’t do a penalty loop, you have to run up the mountain and back on the loop. Geez. That who, there you go.

And if you don’t do the monkey.

Bar, like for example, the 16 foot rope climb,


Doing it. No, I think I could have done it, but.

I’m not why? Why B? Yeah.

Yeah. So I did 30.

Burpees. You get to 15 feet and fall sucks. Free fall. Do a slick shank all the way to the bottom.

Burpees are fine.

There you go. I can.


Burpees. All right. So.

Don’t need to pop wheelies on foreign apparatus.

So we’re doing a question. Okay. So we’re doing a question and answer podcast. Josh, you, we were supposed to give something away. People that submitted questions. We were doing a little giveaway.

Yeah. We were, we’ve got vortex sent us a diamond back HD 2000 range finder, the new ones. They came.

Out. Let’s let’s give this sucker away. You, you, you kind of, we’re the gatherer of all the questions dealing with our social media and printed ’em all out and what? Whatnot. And also I guess assigned a.

Yeah, I signed a random number to all the guys that, that put a thing in for us. And I put on, put.

It this way. We got so many. We’re not gonna get through ’em all day.


Isn’t, they’re pretty solid. Appreciate. I can’t believe how solid.

They are. Good questions. Appreciate the response.

Maybe we start off with the winners question too.

Lucks. We can do.


Got it. So we.


Numbered. We haven’t picked,

I got the little spining wheel of.

Death here.

You did this little spin wheel pinwheel thing. There was a couple Instagram. You’re just gonna spin the couple Instagram accounts. Kind of copied this little pinwheel thing. It’s pretty cute.

Yeah. Here we go. Let’s see.

See what numbers spun.

It. You spun it. You there’s a lot of questions.


Four. Who’s.

On the first page. We’re gonna do the whole first.

Page. Wait, did you assign a number? This staple number? You did number four. Jason. Fred Rico, right? Yeah.



All right. All right. Well,

Okay. Done deal.

We’ll start with that one. And we’ll plow through as many as we can today. We might have to do another one and maybe if we do it around two, we’ll do get something else. Right?

Jason F Rico, you just.

Won a vortex diamond back HT 2000 range finder, courtesy of vortex, optics and epic optics. Geez.

Can’t beat that. We’ll.

Get it be to you. So anyway, who wants to read question? Let’s kick it off.

All right. Well, Josh, since you, since you compiled all these, do you wanna be our question reader guy?

Yeah, I suppose I can. All.

Right. Also known as a narrator.

What are the best state or states to get youth applied for best as in opportunity? Mixed versus dollar values?

Hmm. Okay. There’s a lot. I think there’s pros and cons to multiple states. You know what I mean? Like when you, when I’m looking at my kids, I’m always applying ’em for Colorado. I can do something with preference points. They got deer tags on the regular draw. Yeah. On this secondary draw, they give youth kind of preferential treatment over the adults and they snack duck tags, Bronson, you snack tags. Yeah.

There’s some,

Your kid snack.

Tags, $1 license. It’s hard to beat too for you. Yeah.

Colorado’s a no brainer, a dollar 25 license. And then, you know what, $9 point for you elk can add open and they don’t charge you the sheep moose and goat point either. There’s a youth. So they’re building points for about 4, 5, 6 years until they turn 18. And.

The cool thing about that, you grab ’em three points. It transfers into adulthood. They can still apply elect to not participate in the point system if they don’t wanna pay for the point. Yeah. So, but, and they have, they’re eligible to.

Draw and they’ll probably get a couple, two or three weights before they turn 18. So, right.

So, so.

We do that. One’s a no brainer for me. There there’s no brainer states to apply ’em for, but there’s some of ’em that I still apply. ’em like I applied my kids in Washington while they could, even though.

Until they’re 16,

But, but I didn’t think they were gonna draw. It’s not an opportunity, but for sheet moose and goat for $3 and sheet something, right. Oregon’s another one I apply ’em in until they turn 18. And then I stop. It’s not one I ever think I mainly do sheep and goats there and maybe a couple premium tags, super.

Cheap to do it,

Get those outta the way. But let’s talk about the ones that are like, probably you’re gonna.

Be vested.


You know? I, yeah. I mean, I like, I like Nevada, Sean, my kids have drawn a tag or two. It’s still tough to draw, but it’s super cheap. 15,


For the city license.

Pretty cheap, no brainer there while they’re 18. Arizona’s the same premise similar. Yep. Five bucks for a license. The, the question you’re gonna get in a state like Arizona, Nevada, and we’re getting this ourselves. Carter is, it’s all great from when they’re 10 to 17 in the case of Arizona, 12 to 17 in Nevada. And then when they become an adult and they they’re vested, they got their five or six points. Then what?

That’s a good questions.

Two’s a problem after that.

So if you have six kids times how many states. Yeah. And that’s what I’m dealing with. So that,

That’s the big.

Question. And when I was a kid, my dad, my dad took his leg and he bent it, kicked up his foot and extended it and kicked me off. You know what I mean? And if I wanted it, I got it. And if I didn’t, I didn’t. And I guess my point was is, is back then I felt like it wasn’t affordable. I was writing checks, credit card checks to apply me too. Remember credit card checks. They’d say they would take personal.

Checks. You your percent check.

And a credit card check was considered a personal check. So I was writing it checks that I couldn’t cash. Yeah. You know what I mean? I did.


Same thing. And, and, but nowadays, if I didn’t, I, my kids are into it as a couple of my kids are as into it, as any kid. I know, but I’m, if I kicked them off like that, would they be able to continue the momentum? And I’m not sure they would. So I kind of use it as a Christmas gift. Yeah. Dad, dad takes care of your applications. Dad takes care of a few and here’s a letter in the tree. Part of your Christmas is I take care of that and they love it. They’re they’re appreciative. But what do you really do? What do you really do?

Yeah. Those two states are harder to justify. The word opportunity is harder to do, unless you’re gonna do COOs deer in Arizona. Or even if you say you’re gonna do laid elk that still usually takes 10, 15 points to get ’em one. It’s not. Yeah. It’s not really an opportunity like Colorado going back to that, Wyoming, maybe for deer and antelope, you can go and handful of points you can do antelope and deer hunts in those two states. That’s you can’t always force that in Nevada.

And Arizona. No, Sean drew that Arizona elk tag and, and I was grateful. We’re applying for the we’re doing turkeys anyway. Right? So we got the cheap hunting license fee and whatnot, and you’re, you’re cranking along, but, and grabbing ’em points points. And remember we’re creative. Once they turn 18, we’re trying, they give you the 365 day license. And so you’re.

Buy it the days before they turn 18. So that’s good for turning 65 more days. Yeah.

I mean, you do everything you can to save a few bucks when you’ve got.

To save hundred.

60 bucks, whatever. Right.


Women at scattered everywhere. And so, anyway, you’re just trying to do the best you can to, to be able to afford this kind of stuff. And, and it’s, again, I’m not complaining, quite frankly, we live better than we ever lived, as the price of tags have gone up. So has, you know, inflation has caused, you know, you know, wages or whatever other things, but it just feels so expensive. It feels, yeah. It, it is daunting. I mean, in Nevada, Nevada, how, how much do you spend in Nevada this year for your family? You’re over a grand.

Say. Yeah. Cause.

I’m not complaining, but I’m saying,

Yeah, I used to have my wife and I and, and three kids. And I’ve got one kid meaning under 18, now one left.


So, and, and Arizona Arizona’s got me because by the time you do it from 10 to 17, plus the loyalty in hunter, ed, you’re about 10, about 10 points, nine to 10 points into it before they become an adult. And then, you know, I, I feel like I couldn’t quit. And.

Then, you know, what, what, how Arizona’s so freaking smart. Yeah. Because they, cuz they can, you can point boost off your kids. Yeah. Even the non hunters, the kids that have kind of shied away, you’re still Biden points. No, I’m just saying how smart is that on the state’s part, right? Point boost off ’em twice point boost once grab their points back, do it twice. And their points go to zero. I’m just saying Bronson.

So I don’t know. You, you mix, then you start adding in states like New Mexico and, and Idaho that, that do give youth a price break. They’re still not great odds to draw tags in those states, you know, and.

No point system.

As well, no point systems. So it makes you feel good. And our kids have done some of those in Idaho and whatnot, but they’ve also increased their junior men license, like 90 something dollars. Now it’s not like used to be 20 something bucks. So it’s not a, the kids can.

Hunt early in their life,

The rules and stipulations with that license though too. Makes it a little bit more challenging.

Well, it’s a challenging to even understand.

Yeah. So you.


What I mean? You know, so it’s, it still gonna be 120 something bucks if they do deer and elk and, and buy a license up there it’s not cheap. Like the other states we’re talking about. So, and then we I’ve thrown in, I threw in Wyoming at $10, a a point and there, but, but who knows in the near future. And I know there’s a question about that coming up, if that is gonna become bang for the buck value there either your point, weight’s probably gonna go away. May not be an opportunity state for kids, you know, but.

There’s tags that we’re, we don’t even look at now that as things get cha as times change and things get tougher, we might actually put some value of on the, the big horns deer, the big horns in for deer. Yeah. I saw some great bucks. Have I been back? No. Why? Why haven’t I been back? I saw a great buck. Yeah. I’m just, you know, there’s things that we don’t even think about now that we’ll be like, why did we, why, why did we never go back to some of these places? They’re actually pretty good. Yeah. And we’ll be glad we grabbed a few points for our kids. I don’t know. I, I have a really question. A really good question for Wyatt and Devon. What are you guys doing for your kids?

We’ve been pretty quiet. Don’t why. Yeah.

I don’t even know how to answer that. I guess we, we don’t have kids. What, what.

Get ’em on the ground.

That’s the only way we’re gonna get tagged. Why you.

Guys, you gotta get going, get this kids on the ground so you can have a life after.

Little, little point boosters.

There is life after death Bronson do you’re looking forward to a great life coming up. You got kids leaving the nest, like it’s your job. Yeah. My kids are leaving the nest and I’m going, Hey, this is gonna be all right. Yeah.


Y’all are gonna be changing diapers at 70 grandpa Wyatt. We’re gonna be calling you daddy Wyatt at 75 years.

Old might be.

Well, all right, well, what are you gonna do with your kids?

We gotta get in the kids’ part first.

You know what? Montana closed that loophole where you couldn’t get ’em points in the womb.

Yeah. You can’t do that. So they gotta be, they gotta be of age now.


They gotta be of hunt.

Age and, and you know, glossing over that one. I don’t know that one, if you want a general combo or something like that for a kid, it’s not a bad option, but it’s a hard one to, I can.

Get over the, the counter. I’ve got mine and I’m gonna get Ashley. And Justin, if I had kids over.

The counter, I would take advantage of the youth, Utah bowl. Try to find some land that way. And then New Mexico hunt dates are pretty awesome for.

You. Yeah. Oh, the New Mexico load hunt, even grabbing a landowner tag. It’s good for anything. Right. So if you’re a Muzz load tag in unit 15, I used one for Sean one year. Yeah. As a, as a U, it was incredible hunt. Unbelievable. Pretty.

Good dates.


Well hopefully we gave him something to think about.

Yeah. Geez. What really? We spent that kind of time.

We can’t do that.

We need to move on another.

90 questions.

We need to move on.

Okay. Here we go. Then.

I’d like, I was hoping for some more use stories out of these too, but not gonna happen. All right. Josh,

Carrie Edwards asks, do you guys think Utah needs to change their bonus point system to 75, 25 or maybe an 80 20 split to help with the point creep or leave it the same? What do you think about doing away with it and go to a complete random draw.

Myself with a lot of deer points. I’d like to see more tags go to the 75.


The max, the upper end there. But then as soon as I lose my dear points, I’m gonna be the complete opposite. So.

I, I like Utah, frankly. And I realize point creep is a problem. And, and, and more so probably with deer than anything, because we only have a thousand or 1500 limit entry deer tags. It’s just, that’s unfortunate. I don’t, I don’t, I don’t think well,

Premium, limited entry, but yeah,

Well premium or, or limited entry combined.

I mean, like you’re, you’ve got deer on pine valley. That’s limited entry technically anymore.

You know, I’m not count general. He got, but it’s still.

Under a draw.

70 or 80,000 general. I’m talking limited entry or premium. Yeah. So I, I, I like having a, a shot. I understand the people that waited a long time. Wanna have a better shot, but, but you’re gonna, you’re gonna draw and then it’s gonna be long game or you got kids. If I personally like the 50 50 system in Utah, I don’t want to go to complete random. Now you’ve had too long of a buy-in.

I think part of us saying that though too, is we like all these different systems.

Yeah. I, I, I like that. Every state isn’t the same. I do like that. There’s predictability in some places and there’s total unpredictability and I love.


Goes around. Go on Idaho. But,

But, but because it’s random, I haven’t drawn Jack for.

A while. Yeah.

You know,

I, I actually don’t mind the, the variety.

Yeah. But if you’re just a Utah guy, period, plain and simple, and I only hunt Utah and I’m gonna stay here and I, you know, I can totally see the frustration at times. It’s.


So, but I, we drew, like we drew random this year. I drew random. My kid drew random, even though it’s 50 50, and it doesn’t seem like there’s a lot of random people do draw random. We know my.

Brother drew random elk tag. Oh, it happens.

That’s right. We got the wonderful expo tags that are going randomly.

Yeah. I know some.

To the same people year after year, just, but it does, does appear to be similar.

You know, that’s one thing don’t look at me almost kind of drives me a little bit crazy though. As everybody wants to fix the point creep system and I guess news flash I’d like.

To have, we either gotta kill hunters. Yeah, exactly. Or we got, or we gotta increase the tag numbers. There’s.

Really nothing you can do to fix point creep. Every state has it with every system that they have and there’s opportunities to increase drawing odds here and there, but you’re not gonna fix point creep.

I think the answer to some of it is what we were just talking about. Like deer in the big horns in Wyoming or some of these generals. We’re not even considering, we’re not even considering hunting some places in Southern Arizona. We know have some big yielder. We don’t even, it’s not even on the radar. Why.


Because there’s, even though there’s point creep, I have opportunities in other places. And, and when I don’t have opportunities, then we’re gonna be doing some weird stuff. Nevada’s forced us, forced us to consider some of these odds.

Can’t just go for just what you want every year.

Over here, can’t do 2 41 to 2 45, the rest of my life. Yeah. You know,

Not again, every trial. Right.

And so then all of a sudden you realize, wow,


Take that unit out of Vegas. Wasn’t so bad. There’s a two 20 on my wall from it. You know what I mean? Like pretty soon you’re, you’re starting to realize there are other options, even though mentally, sometimes we don’t think there’s another option other than the strip in Arizona. Yeah.

Right. And that’s why I, I feel like I want to hunt the strip so bad, more than anything, but you know what? I kind of came to the realization that, you know, I’m never going.

To, you came to the realization, you like KUER.

Yeah. Get weird and hunt, weird deer. I don’t know. No, but do do different things. And, and not every, you don’t have to apply the same in every state. You know, maybe take a state like Arizona and say, I’m gonna make it this. And yeah. Hunt it a different way than you would Colorado or some route. Maybe I had enough mul there other places I’m gonna start doing something different and don’t treat every state the same and apply for the best of everything in every state. You’re gonna have to do something different to help your odds. Just nobody else can help you with your.

Odds. Anybody else? Devin, do you have any thoughts on this, this particular question.

I had. I like how it is. I, I don’t know how you could change it too.

Sometimes I’m.

More, you’re never gonna make everybody happy. That’s just the unfortunate.

Truth. When I read this question, I’m just thinking, I think that people are thinking there needs to be change everywhere. We’re go. If we’re gonna change it, how are we gonna change it? I’m thinking, I don’t know that everything needs to be changed. There’s some things I’m, I’m okay with. But anyway, there you go. I agree. I agree. I don’t think there needs to be change. I.

Agree too.

Same. I, if there’s gonna be change, I think it could be, you know, maybe some elk seasons and a few other changes other than.

Yeah. That’ll increase quotas. Yeah. Which could help point creep more than anything you adjusting the percentages. That’s why, if you just, I would, I would tag.

Most definitely.

Yeah. We can.

Season in September and we were hunting ’em in November. How many more tags could you.

Get? Yeah, maybe you take scopes off mozz loaders. Now you are gonna have a little better drawing ons for guys that are willing hunt with.

Used to be. Yeah,

Yeah. Yeah. Had some cactus buck hunts, things like that. It just pulls guys moves guys different way. Adds a few other limited.

I like tags, Utah. Utah has done a good job of some weirds.

Skews, a few five tag, late muzzle loaders on generals to.

Take your limited hands. Hunts, elk, Ander, archery on some of the once in a lifetimes, some.


Cactus buck.

Yeah. And one choice counts, right? One choice really counts. There’s no leftover tax. So, you know, you gotta really choose. I like that too. I think Nevada should go away from the five choices.

Everybody doubles up, especially you get like California, big horn sheep. Every non-resident pretty much puts in for all choices. That’s right. Like there’s no better odds. That’s right. Like, and that’s a bad, you can’t play it too hard, but even desert sheep and things like that. They’re just, if there’s 20 theres.

One or two choices,

You’d be able to place ’em as a deer, especially everybody shoots for the, you know, stars on those first choices or two, if you really only had one choice or two. And I know the residents have really been kind of resistant to that. And that’s why, but I think,

Think part of it is an education standpoint. Think about this residents in Nevada. If you live in Reno and you had one or two choices, you may not apply for 2 41 to 2 45 is your first choice. You might do the 1 94, 1 96 and something else around there. You know what I mean? Maybe 2 91 or I don’t know, something that’s close to you that still has, you know, great potential.

Be interesting to know how many fifth choice tags get turned back. Cuz guys are like.

A lot of them I’ll bet a lot.

I’ll bet. It’s most being.

Interesting. A lot of them are probably fortune.

Choices. Yep.

So anyway, kind of interesting. Good, good questions. Great question that everybody’s thinking about everybody in the world is thinking about this kind of stuff. How can I get more tags? How, what, what needs to change with this system to allow for more tag availability? So good question. All right.

Okay. Next one. Alan Schultz ask us, do you think Wyoming will be changing all the allocation of non-resident tags for dear elk and antelope soon? If so, do you think cashing in your points will be something we will have to do soon? Will Wyoming even be a state worth buying points in?


It is gonna change.

Yeah. I, I fully expect it to change. I do think that you should consider using your points sooner than later, if to draw three 20 tag that you’re trying to get now, because if it does go into effect point creeps gonna kick in, even worse to, to say it’s not worth buying points. I wouldn’t go that far, but your mindset’s completely gonna have to change. Like Carter’s already mentioned some of these general Deere units that, that now take zero to one point might take two to three in the future. Who knows? Yeah. I don’t know how they’re gonna change some of those quotas because the general quotas may not actually get cut because that’s already over the counter for resident counter for residents.

And how are you gonna cut out for.

General outcome that per se. Right. But antelope, especially, you know, things elk they’re gonna, they’re gonna get cut. And so yeah. Use ’em while you, why you are targeting what you think you’re trying to get because in a year or two, just like with the moose, sheep’s gonna happen this next year. It’s your point creeps really gonna happen.

We’ve already talked to a lot of guys that are talking about using them either in 2022, which means they’ve already used them or 20, 23, knowing that 20, 24 is kind of the anticipated year that that would take effect. So.

What do you apply? Anticipate that,

Yeah, you’re gonna have point creep.

It’s gonna creep a lot.


The past,

And we’ve all talked to guys right there. Like when, when you have six points, guys are applying for a six point unit or maybe a seven point unit trying to get the absolute most and, and it jumps to eight or nine and then they call and say, why did it jump to eight or nine? I don’t know. There was a lot of people that wanted to go there. I mean, you know what I mean? And so it.

Be similar to Colorado’s late season dates for.

Here. That’s right. And so you’re gonna, have’s gonna, it’s gonna increase. So yeah, anticipate that is what it is. It’s gonna be in my mind. It’s still gonna be worth getting points for, if they, they do have points, they’ve talked about a lot of different changes, weighted points in the random draw, things like that.

But I do think you’re gonna, yeah, you’re gonna have to change your mindset on what you want. It’s gonna be a hunt more often opportunity state after you use your points the first time.

I think there’s a lot of opportunity in kind of off the wall. Yep. Type, type things there on those general tags unit, weird units. Yeah. General.

How, you know, and for the, and maybe the potential real, real potential of the guiding Outfitters taking up half of our non-resident quota or, you know, 40%, 40 to 50% not set in stone yet, but it’s, there’s a task force and they’re definitely working that over whether we, we agree with it or not, which, you know, we could go in for an hour on that. It’s just is what it is. And it’ll, it’ll further reduce the tags available to say a DIY or, or guided guy like a, you know what I mean? It’s gonna reduce even that much further. I think things are gonna get crazy in Wyoming potentially. Is that what y’all think? Yeah,

I do. Gotta get tough. All right. That the got good,

Good question. I think Wyoming’s what, what a great state, I mean, just great opportunity, really cool. You know, state similar to Nevada, very low population of people and a lot of wild country and a lot of cool, cool critters. And you know, I mean out in that wide open desert country, there’s some big old bulls bucks, just, just a great state to, to hunt in, but it’s hard to watch things change and it’s kind of frustrating, but it is what it is. Residents. I think, I don’t know. I don’t know some of these things that are hard to draw for a non-residents just over the counter for residents, maybe the answers, they have a little reduction too, at some point. So no,

I’m sure they’re gonna say no.

All right. Sounds good. Okay. Question reader, guy,

Neil Gillon. He asked us curious what the choices would be. If you guys were hunting mule deer and there, and there was the next 300 ER, and the new typical world record standing next to each other, which one are you shooting?

Let’s go around the horn. Everybody has to give their answer. And let’s just clarify. The 300, ER, is rubbed a bony, a bony blood line filled bloodline.


Exactly. I was thinking if it’s any shape or form stag. No way. It’s no way. No way. That’s I agree. That’s what I mean. It’s a bony it’s gotta have, can actually.

Full testicles. Okay.

It has to have a 200 plus inch frame. Okay. That’s right. So Wyatt Wyatt is an official B C score with all the confidence can put his name on the score sheet that it doesn’t matter. Knowing.

It’s gonna be paneled 14 different ways,

Knowing that it doesn’t have a scrap of velvet or anything, or yeah. So.

Has marbling.

Having said that a 2 21 6? No,

It’s the two.

30. No, yeah. 2 26, 26. It’s 26, but I mean it’s plus four point yeah. Or 300 inch. Let’s go around who’s first. Jason, Jason,

Do a smash and grab both of them.


No, no. I I’m telling you typicals. So you know what? This is what I was thinking. But with this particular question, non typicals, everybody says the book non-typical Mueller is the hardest thing to put in the book, similar to a net book. Stoner, Don Dan horn. Yeah. Right. And so, but I just don’t know if I agree with that. I, it felt.

Like it felt like 10 years ago, you could say that, but anymore book typicals.

Put a, put a net typical in the book, you know, I’ve got one of ’em. Yeah. Hunted my guts out non typicals have come easier for me. And I just feel like a straight, typical, that’s an absolute giant like that. An absolute.


Yeah. I don’t wanna say it on this podcast, but a freak foul, but just a one of those just disgusting pigs. I’m telling you the typical, I guess I’d probably do typical. And I never would’ve thought I would say that.

This is a guy though that got a few non typicals that have scratched some big itches.

But if you put a typical with big old fat bloody eye guards, you know what I mean? And maybe some he’s not quite scoreable bur basal point, like.

3, 7, 8, a bunch of seven, eight.

Points. That’s hard to hold on the rack that your hands,

Geez. All of his extras are seven, eight inches.

Yeah. I would, I would die for.

That. Right? Why? Right. Seven eights. But you know, to be that big, he’s gonna have big eye guards.

You’re not yeah. Four and a half inches that are two inches long.

It’s not gonna be a slick shape if you kill the slick.

Shape and they don’t come to a point, they come to they’re freaking bird off the top. Got a great big old, I just saying rounded off top. Huh?

It sounds a dream buck. It is. I just, I still, I’m gonna say you’re.

Doing nontypical. I’m.

I’m gonna.

Choose that. And you should, dude. I, I probably would look at em,

But, but then again, we’ve all seen what we’re talking about. There’s a few what that are.

Seen a 300,

ER, no I’m talking oldy pictures. Like it still kind of depends what it looks like. And I don’t, I know that sounds stupid to me.

It’d have to have like why I said.

A big frame trash, because if you get one that’s a rubbed. Yeah.

That big foot book, both ways type buck that, you know, Dennis winch killed, but.

I don’t, but I don’t 40.


40 inch.


Or, or it doesn’t need to be 40, but just something that is built well and 50, 75 inches of trash to go with it. It’s gotta be that something I, but.

It feels like does it even let’s possible? Well, Josh, jump in before we jump to the next little sub sub you.

Three need to give your.

Answer. What’s your answer.

I’m taking the 300 inch here.

No question. What?


Going non-typical as well.

Devin, you’re.

Talking to a guy who laid down and dialed a turret on a buck with a drop time that was like 17 inches.

Wide. So you’re.

Doing non typical. I’m killing. Not typical.

Okay. And I I’m telling you, it it’d be, that’d be a really tough call. Is this typical, super heavy like this? I.

Feel like if you saw bolt at the same time and you had to make a quick decision, you’d.

Kill, kill the, you would the trash,


Probably, but I’ll bet that that four point though would look like anything. Nothing you’ve ever seen. Oh yeah. That’s your thing. When you think about that much bone, they both would four point that’s a lot.

So let’s so let’s take it just a little further. You know, it felt like in the early nineties, mid nineties, eighties, whatever this was possible. Like when you went out even general over the counter, Utah, when we had those rut hunts with the muzzle, you felt like I may kill something like this. I may kill something like this. I don’t know. It does not even feel possible. Does it.

See or even see something like that,

Like this or name twin two 50. They’re named when they’re two 20 as an.

And, and it also where, where we live Southern Utah, Northern Arizona, Western Nevada, the droughts had such a grip, man. It’s been a rough two, three years. Yeah. It just, we haven’t seen, we haven’t seen a book. We haven’t seen one 90 net, four points in any regularity anywhere, let alone what we’re talking about or any many book non-typical so, which is two 30 net. So I don’t know.

You have good Atler growth years. There’s several of these on net one 90 S that we didn’t even hunt. Oh, in Nevada? Yeah. On, on a good growth year. Yeah. Really good growth year. And before it felt like all the Fs died, it feels like the population’s of plummeted. Yeah. You know, whether they have, or haven’t, I, I don’t know for a fact, but it just feels like predator. They’re just more vulnerable to predation and they’re just not living these, you know,

And then a lot better hunter or something too. Yeah.

A lot more in ourselves. They.

Thought you would take a buck to make a big jump that nobody knew. Like there’s gonna be a giant on this unit. It would have to be just out of nowhere kind of deer, I think. Yeah.

Yeah. Like the Colorado, but yeah, six, eight years. Exactly.

If we kill one like this, I wanna have a costume party. Like, like flannel. I wanna put the gun in the rack. I wanna sit on it’s back.

Riding, you know what you gotta do then in the bottom of your hunting pack from.

Now put flannel.

I’ve think flannel shirt. I’m thinking just for the.

Moment, stick a couple packets in there just in case.

Wrap. And then I want to take it and put it in the back of my 72 chef,

A trucker hat foam, trucker hat that you wore in this seventies. Yeah. The.

Foam with the.

Rope foam. I still wear one of those.

Yeah. I’m telling you, I MI I miss that. Like I miss that whole feeling. It feels that feeling hunting has changed so much that that feeling is gone. Like that feeling is gone.

So a minute ago I brought up a lot better hunters nowadays, but I mean, there was great hunters back then, but I mean, we have a lot better.

Tools here than what any of, of those guys.

Ever had.

And they all, they felt like the resource was never gonna be gone. And so they’d shot. ’em like, like they didn’t hold out. Like if those hunters back then they were, they were great hunters. But if they knew what they were looking at, they knew the score.

System knew and knew they knew it was gonna go away at some point, what would they have gripped on to?

What would they have killed? You know, they would’ve held out, know what they’re holding out for, you know, just, it just feels like anyway, so much pressure, so much emphasis put on and we’ve done it to ourselves. We’re doing it right here. Right. We’re pushing out podcast. Yep. Talking about how to hunt and how to be more effective. Yeah. Anyway, great question. Can we move on? Yeah. We’re gonna smash and grab both of them. Hope we don’t get caught and hopefully.


Nevada pray for forgiveness.

We want, ’em.

All say, say a little prayer and move on. Be a better guy from then on. I dunno. That’s the answer, everybody.

Everybody Jason’s joking. Just so.

I, I am joking. I, I would never do that.

Hopefully it’s Nevada. And you had a landowner tag and a draw tag in the same unit. How about.

That? Yeah. Yeah. That it’s legit. Yep. Okay.

Speaking narrator,

Speaking of how, how good of hunters we are these days? Next question comes from Andy ke. This says pros and cons and of the different ballistic calculating range finders, non binocular versions.

Josh, we’ve done some range finding, let’s.

Talk about what Seagate K.


Four revic. Maybe those are pro.

The like of 28 hundreds, 3,500. Go ahead. Jump, jump into it.

I don’t know. They, a lot of it, a lot of ’em do the same, have a lot of same functions. You know, a lot of it, it basically boils down to you. Once you’re building your rifle profile in it, you push a button and you dial that’s how they all essentially function. It. They all, obviously at that point, they come with different lasers and technologies. You know, some of ’em have different like say that revic has a, a 10 power. That’s a magnification.

On it. That that’s one big, big thing. I, I, I wish I I’ve used CIG since I came out the 2,400 and now got an eight and I wish they had a 10 power. It’s the only thing I can say about that. Yeah. That I, that I wish it didn’t have. And I had one instance on a COOs deer, gray out COOs deer. Of course they’re always great. And not a summer COOs deer in December. It, you know, six, 700 yards that had a hard time even seeing the deer. Yeah. And I know they have the platform. I can put it on and mounted on my tripod, but when you’re by yourself and you’re hunting and you’re trying to get range and shooting the heat about, I’m not thinking of getting that outta my pack and doing that. I’m just not. And so that, that is one thing, 10 extra power. And, and I know we’re not talking about binos, but anybody that’s considering the binos versus those, that’s one benefit to binos. As you have two hands, you’re locked on, better fill the view,

Looking through both.

Barrels, both barrels, and it’s not a monocular and it, and it’s an easier to, to hit your target and to make sure you’re hitting that target are very close to it. That’s a fact.

There is a difference. That’s I think why I’ve gravitated to the bot binoculars, just because of that. But yeah, seeing that revic with the 10 power, that’s a, that was a good, a good bonus there, you know, everything from the, like, as upwards to there there’s different price ranges, you know, starting in the 700 range with like that 28 and going upwards to the 13 plus range.

One thing I didn’t like about the BR four was just that it did, it was a little bit bigger and a little bigger doesn’t seem like a big deal until you hold it and you’re dealing with it. Yeah. I’m used to the old likers. We started off with what? The 1200 or even less, I.

Don’t know. Masters.

Yeah. And they’re basically the, the eight, the SIG eight K is the same size as that. Yeah. I’m just used to it.

And, and say like that, that rev there’s like I said, little design functions, you know, it’s got that nice, fancy cover that covers up the lenses and everything. Well, that nice fancy covers kind of hard to flip down when you have your bow in your other hand and your you, when you put in the case, it goes on and it sticks on and you gotta pull it out.

Remember when you first use it, you used it first out of all of us. And you were like, this is next level. This is unbelievable.

Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I mean that, that’s, that’s.

The thing, the functionality of it is, and stuff is great. There are a few little things. If you’re the bow hunting thing like that, you don’t want to cut it off, but you might.

That’s. That’s what I mean. Like there’s all these little things. If, if you’re looking into getting one, think about those types of things as well. A lot of ’em do, do essentially the same and function the same, but.

The algorithm and the mathematics and the environmental data that’re capturing now, they’re all grabbing. They’re all pretty same thing you’re gonna be plus or minus a very small,

Kinda like trucks. There’s no difference between all.

Of ’em. Well, there’s a question about that coming up and I have a feeling you’re gonna have a different opinion.

I know. I know. That’s why I said it jest. Like I get it, but it does feel like things the technology’s so aggressive that there’s, there’s all, there’s good in all of them. Oh yeah. You know, there is, that’s why I bring up the size. It’s the only thing negative I can think of. I mean, it’s, they’re super smart, you know, incredible. The AKs. Incredible. I can’t believe the speed. I cannot believe the speed.

What’s your guys’ opinion on the apps? The usability of the apps, comparatively.

Rav one. I’ve only used SIG and Josh. You’ve no arguments with. Yeah. I’ve no,

They’re all pretty,

Pretty happy. I mean, well, and anymore, you know how I mean, I know why, you know, struggling with his iPhone, but generally speaking, generally speaking, it’s a plug and play and nobody even reads the instructions anymore. No. Yeah. We all basically know how to use a computer and they’re just a computer. Yeah. That’s all it is.

You open up the app, there’s a bunch of dropdowns. You just add in your stopping literally. Yeah.

You almost don’t have to.

Do this. You connect to the blue to, you know yeah. You upload the profiles, you choose the profile, you shoot it, you dial it and shoot it. Right. What do you think, Devin?

I think if you’re a long range shooter, there’s some accessories and certain things that in a hunting situation you don’t really need. Right. That could cause you lost time or.

Whatever. Sandbag.

Yeah. Well, I mean, if you’re back at sandbags, flannel mustard packets and your Keros and you know, flannel,


And bust, I’m just saying like at some point simpler can be better in that those situations.

I agree. So give us a, for example, that you’re thinking.

About, well, I mean, even thinking about wind sometimes, like I’ve thought about wind and overthought it.

Yeah. So attaching the wind meter to,

Well, yeah. Even, and that going that far and you’ve, you’ve hold it up and it’s a four mile an hour wind. Like.

What’s it doing in between the, in.


What’s it doing at the animal?

You don’t, you don’t always know, need visualize those things, see bushes, all that stuff, instead of worry about messing with your equipment. Cuz you’re.

Just, that’s why I like Kentucky windage,

Kentucky. I.

Like roughly Kentucky, you know, hold on its brisket, hold on its butt hold somewhere on the.

Animal. Most of the times I ever held for wind overcompensated. Yeah. Overthought it. Yeah.


And if it’s blown too.

Much that, but my point with this is if you’re, if you’re moving directions and all that, it’s just, you can overthink things instead of just lay down and gather yourself and make it happen.

Even the vortex range finders are really awesome. I mean, they’re, they’re affordable. A smart range finder is affordable anymore. Some of them I’m not gonna lie. The eight case fairly expensive. Yeah. You know, but I’m buy,

I buy it got a lot of bells and whistles. I’m buying it they’ve added, added to it from the 2,400. Yeah. The display stuff. So, you know, it displays your profile. Oh yeah. On the screen. So you remember whatever you.

Type in.

The app. I’m not in my seven mag right now. I’m about to shoot my seven,

I red rock, 30 nozzle dot. I can type all that in and then Bluetooth it and it shows up in the screen, you know? So,

You know, you’re in a six, five or 2250 mode. Right,

Right. Or my Muzz. How about that? Yeah. 300 Grainer you know? Yeah. Whatever going 2,600. So. Alright. Sounds good on to the next one. Good question. We appreciate it. Question reader, guy. Here we.

Go. Garrison. Kinsel he asked when it comes to late season yield deer. How often would you guys say you were hunting remote deer away from people versus killing bucks out from under people by using different slash creative tactics?

I, I wish John was here for this killing bucks out from under people. Cuz he, he loves the pumpkin patch out here. He has very.

Well. It even Colorado last year,

Remember? Oh no, he watched the guy cut the fence.

Not you not yeah. Trespassing right in Colorado. Cut.

The fence, drug of deer through it or whatever. And didn’t even redo the fence. I don’t know what he,


John’s stories are just.

Most of the time when we’re, when I’m hunting late season mule there I’ve done it. I guess I’ve done it in Wyoming. I’ve done it in Idaho. But most of the time I’m in Colorado. You’re not right from under people, but you’re in and amongst people. So I would say for sure, that’s how I’m hunting and, and whether I’m trying to be smarter or am smarter or more creative, I guess is totally debatable. But that’s the reality of most of the time. I’m not, I’m not normally hiking to some remote canyon somewhere and I’m the only guy there. I’m just not on units that,

But I think you would be if you were, if you had local knowledge, like say Nevada, I was thinking about Nevada, you know, like say the two forties, there’s five units, 2 41, 2, 3, 4, and five. And if you list out all the places you want to hit, right? The last five days of the season, when they start to rut or, or start thinking about it. And in fact it used to go to November 5th. There are some remote places I checked. Like there was an, I smashed a buck on video for rich Reaper in one of those places. And I, but I’m not going there to get away from people. I’m going there to check for bucks.

Well, and it’s also, I think that’s the type of unit you’re into. If you’re in a unit with 603rd season tags versus five or 10 hunters, doesn’t matter if you go, you don’t need to try to get away from people on a 10, when a 10 tag unit on a four season. There’s nobody there. Right. Just don’t overthink that. Just hunt the numbers, couple.

Dose. We’re hunting we’re yeah, that’s right. But, and, and generally speaking, that works and we’re hunting wherever we feel like the big deer are. It doesn’t really matter if it’s bunks a bunch of people. I don’t really like that, but it, but we’re gonna go there. But one other thing that came to mind was the unit I hunted last year and your brother was in a neighboring unit and he hunted some less popular. Oh yeah. A little more, took a little more effort. Not a ton. It wasn’t backpacking, but he took a day, day hiking. Yeah,

Didn’t see. And he got.


From people.

Nice box. But with that, he also found nice sheds, nice bucks. And I feel like sometimes when you get away from people you’re hunting deer, maybe a little bit older. They’re they’re, they’re escaping the crowds. They’re living an extra year or two until people like Aaron or yourself or myself or whatever, go find them. Yeah.

It’s more thicker canyon country and thicker the deer were there harder to find and see, but you could glass into thick trees and make a four to 600 yard shot. If you had to that’s the type of country it was versus burns truck, truck, truck, people burn blossom, driving the perimeter of a burn every day and right. The hunts over 15 minutes after daylight. Cause all the bucks either shot at or they’re back in the trees.

So, and then sometimes I remember we were hunting over by, you know, Eagle, like say a 35 36, and there’s some places you could cross the river. Right. And a little more extra effort. And you’re hunting away from people, maybe a little older age, class buck. But I don’t know that we’re trying to, I did that. That’s 40.

14. It’s deliberate target every time. It’s just sometimes you things come to during a hunt. Like I, I don’t know. I gotta do something a little bit different cuz where I’m at with everybody, this is just same old Merry go round, so to speak. Right. And you gotta think outside a little bit and.

The Ponta gone similar to that, like you, some of the best bucks are killed where everybody hunts all the time. Yeah. And then there’s a couple places why you would go check where there’s some migration or Ru.

Kill a great buck out.

Maybe not goes and checks.

Yeah. Well few off the wall places I think, you know, for the most part on those late season deer kind of looking for more of an easier place to winter, most of the time, a lot of times they’ll end up on the valley floor where elk are gonna find a, a hide hole. They’re gonna tuck away on a, a steep mahogany Ridge or steep south, depending on the weather kind of kind of bury themselves. Elk.

Is totally different than deer. A lot of times, cause late season deer, you got the Ru factor, late season elk, they’re going the opposite direction. They wanna be,

Go be alone. Their guys are glazed over. They’re going to winter range. They’re going to the do.

So I feel like, you know, deep back country, you’re, you’re a lot more aggressive on the, the elk. Most of the time getting finding a late season bowl than you would be a late season mule deer, late season mule deer.

You might in a lot of.


A lot of country, but, but you guys have killed great bucks in some areas that are.

Overlooked most definitely most definitely, always gonna find kind of an overlook area where low, lower deer entities typically lead to lower people. Numbers too.

I love low density. I low density. The usually game and fish doesn’t really know what’s there. It’s harder to survey. You got less, you know, it, it less, less people, but with that are less, you know, deer densities. And so, you know, you would think it, the ratio would still work itself out and roughly have the same age class, but it just doesn’t feel like it wor it works, works out like that. It feels like low densities, equal old deer, these old, low densities out in these desert areas, you got freaking dinosaurs.

You know what I mean? A lot of people kind of get bored with it too. I think, you know, they can stand up for a day or two sitting there.


Nine days, staring through optics and not seeing anything for the chance. They might see one deer or they could drive down the road 10 miles and see 200 deer that night.

So on elk, what are you guys doing? Like talk, let’s talk about that little bit. We’ve all hunted late season elk. You guys especially have bro and spent some time, you know, Dutton, you know, Josh you’ve spent time GUI and Wyatt. You’ve guided a lot, Devin you a lot of late season elk in Nevada and stuff. What are, let’s talk about that just a little bit more, but Wyatt, you brought it up, but maybe just a little bit more.

So elk, they seem to know, of course they’re done with the rut. They’re looking to be lazy and kind, kinda lay up and they’re gonna pull somewhere where there’s good feed and, and good cover as well. They’re gonna kind tuck away with their, their bachelor herd of bulls. Usually they’re during a group of bulls. I’ve noticed that time of year and it’s, it’s usually deep country. Most of the time, it’s, it’s not as easy to access as a lot of your deer country. That time of year where your deer are gonna spend the winters.

And I, but I think at times people are hunting where they’re finding sheds too. So like the sheds have killed a lot of bulls late season. You don’t know where this thing ruts. Maybe, maybe, you know where he summers, but he comes from two or three units away every year to a certain area. And then you guys are smashing him.

Yeah. They seem to be pretty, pretty habitual in they’re they’re winter patterns as far as, as far as coming back and shed hunters have killed a lot of, a lot of big bulls.

Yep. I would agree. Elk’s completely different. You gotta, you’re probably gonna have to. And, and by nature they’re they avoid people a little bit more, even in the rut. They’re not as dumb as deer, you know, deers stand out right in front of off the truck elk in the rut, they’ll be go, the cows will take off and they’re, they’re off to the timber. You know, they’re just by nature. Elk are more reclusive from people. So when a bull forgets about cows and he’s by himself or with one or two or a handful of bulls, they’re usually dug in, in a place of least resistance, not being bothered with good feed, like what I said. And so, yeah, that’s a totally different thing. You’re gonna have to lace it up usually, or be real creative and hike, advantage points that you think you can just glass something that everybody’s driving by, you know, may not be always distance away from roads, but just prop proximity and weird glassing van.

The highway right here in Nevada right here. I mean highway 93 there late season. Sometimes there’s some weird stuff on them. You know what I mean? And some really easy places to go. So yeah,

One of my favorite places was a road that it would snow and as a north facer and you couldn’t drive it. So I’d walk it every single time, little holes here and there. So it’s a little something, so that’s a remote place. But then other places we, I knew bulls were there, but it’s just so thick and they move like 20 steps a day and there’d be truck after truck after truck and they give it 10 minutes leave and then half hour later bull comes out. We smash it.

Steps out.

So you just, it takes patience on those late seasons. Yeah. It’s.

Just lot of glassing. Yep.

Patient say the more popular places they’re there.

So our own Jeff John has like a late season elk tag. Right? Doesn’t.

Come to find out. That’s right. Yeah.

The other in Nevada, what advice Devi would you give? There’s a lot of people with late elk tags in Nevada. What advice would you give him.

That? Well, that specific units pretty open and it’s kind of a weird elk unit where they could be high we’ve killed bulls high, clear down, low in the Sage. And I, I just told him like, don’t check one spot and let, and just write it off. You have to keep checking. Like, if you know, if your radar, if your alarms going off, this is a bull hole. Then it probably is.

I’ve hunted late season over at Eley a bit. And the, the guys, the, the reason I had a guy that’s very capable of doing it on his own. Wonder if he should hire somebody, I’m like, you should absolutely hire somebody. The thing it’s very thick and they’re long distance glassing. And those guys can sit there day after day after day. And they have the conviction to sit there because there’s new bulls each day they’re seeing or finding or happen. And sometimes they’re just over the Ridge and you can’t see ’em and they’re outta sight. But whereas a guy that was self-guided might go there, glass, nothing here, move on and, and not put the time in these guys know.

The repeated knowledge of the.

Service. Yeah. One of my favorite things to do is if, if in Nevada, especially there’s so many roads in van, I mean, they make roads everywhere. There’s mining roads, there’s Ridge roads, hunters have made you go there and you say, okay, that’s the section I can’t see from anywhere. Figure out a way to see it, cuz there’re probably gonna be bulls in there almost every time. Yeah. They just don’t get bothered. So that’s where they stay. Yep.


And it doesn’t have to be a big wilderness, you know, non roaded area, just a pocket people can’t see.

Awesome. Like it, Josh, you got anything you’ve done a fair bit.

Of this. Like with like with Devin it’s I don’t know how many times you’d sit in glass spot. Okay. There’s nothing there or whatever. And then you’re glassing over here looking around doing something and you just, as you’re putting your spotting scope, will your glass back up and all of a sudden here’s a big,

Where did this school bus come.

From? Right. Yellow school bus bus, or four of, and you’re like, I seriously looked at that for 20 minutes, but it’s crazy something that big can just stand the right behind the right tree or.

Whatever. They don’t move a lot. They take one step, every five minutes, just conservative.

Energy just, and half the time you’re looking in mahogany and thick stuff, you know, that’s where they like. So yeah. You just gotta spend the time and go to those areas that they go to. They’ll be there. They, they do regardless.

So Brons and I always asked a question to bring up for you. What.

Do you mean? I don’t sit on the list.

Well, there is one didn’t I didn’t put it to the list. Cause I didn’t. I was the editor.

Bonus item. This is kinda like court. I wanna know who asked this.

Question. Well,

Who asked.

You don’t have a right to know the accuser?

I think I do. I think I.


So last time I went, I wanted know the guy that wanted when.

You were in the face. Well watching and dolphin watching.

No dolphins in the.

Last one. What were well, what do you figure is the optimal power of binocular to use and does quality make a difference?

Yeah, but I, I had twelves, I took my twelves and I glass mountain goats from the top deck I did. And I’m glad I did you have a tripod? No, I, I thought that would be a little weird to.

Be flip flops and, and the, and the ocean and the mountain goat country in the same.

I, I took my shoes off. I sent some of y’all pictures and it was,

Hey, Hey, were you happy with goats? Was the NL.

Twelves. I took my NL 12,

12. Do you feel like you could have seen the goats from 14 miles away if you didn’t have the NL.

Twelves? No I don’t. But could you tells, are now thinks or Billys? I wish I had tens probably for wills. Eights probably would’ve been okay too. A lot of those were closer, you know, one to 400 yards from the boat. So they’re not, but still, but the twelves are a little jittery in your hands, but Hey, I could have sold. I could have sold whatever I had that day. If I had ’em in my hands, just looking right. I should the blow hole. I should have filled up a suitcase. I should have cake it a suitcase of optics.

You should have.

Yeah, because you know, you’re there with people from all nationalities and when Stu blow holes are going off and people are they’re, I almost didn’t want my vinyls there because I thought I knew somebody was gonna drop ’em off the edge. Cuz you have, what do you have to do? Take ’em off your vinyl hearts. Now you’re handing them out. Okay. What are they doing? They’re leaning over the edge. And I’m seeing a $3,000 pair of thing. Just.

You need a heavy deposit.

I need a chain. One of those key chains. That’s the leash that goes out like it’s.

So retractable. Yeah. You know, an auto retract. It.

Was pretty fun. Pretty neat. You know my wife. And.

So anyway, talk about that a little bit. You were out on vacation. Did the crew, the Alaskan.

Cruises, Alaska cruises. Haven’t been on that. My,

I never have either.

Yeah. My wife and her sister and husband had a great trip up there. Did all the Southeast Alaska. That’s awesome. Did you put.

That on the calendar? That means you got about 14 more sheep hunts coming up that you’re able to.

Do. Well, unfortunately this was, this was her birthday present. So I don’t know if I can count. Hey, I celebrated your birthday. You could try put that on the calendar. You could try.

It never hurts to try.

Anyway, but we had a great trip get away with, but I do think, I do think I’m I I’m in the positive side right now. Yes I have. I have, well,

The bird Watchers, I would’ve figured eights and I thought with blow holes, it might be eights. It might be okay. Well,

I I’m sure if y’all needed to look for a certain appendage on a well to determine what species it was. I might need some, but I’m not, I’m not that level.

I’ve been on a mountain, go hunt. When my, when my dad was like, Hey, you know, you’re trying to kill a big one and we couldn’t even tell the sex. Okay.


Know. And he’s like, does it gut ball? Yeah, it does Kaba. Okay. And he killed the biggest one in the unit that year. So, you know, I’m not, I’m not sure. I’m not sure I need to be that.

I think eights or tens. You’re fine. If you’re going to look at wills, eights are probably plenty now. Anyway,

I like it. That was, I like it. Eight eights, by the way, I am a fan eights and twelves. I’m a fan tens. I’m a fan. They’re.

Kind of caught in the middle. They’re good. They’re awesome. They’re probably more all around her.

I love eights. And the more peop there’s a lot of people out there that are starting to admit it. Even though you guys be beat us up a little bit. No.

I don’t. Yeah.

You’ll like them, you, one of these days, you’re gonna convert and you’re gonna be like, where have these been? All my life. Yeah. Like in the storage room.

I would.

All right. Kay. Well, I appreciate that. Thanks. That’s a good, that was a good question. You know who you are? Who, who asked that? Jason?

Thanks. Jason was Jason in for the drawing for the free vinyls know.

Can’t win your own stuff on there. Hey, it’s all question. Question reader, guy. Here we.

Go. Oh, I know as we are blowing through these like crazy what.

Time? I mean, grief. We gotta keep going. Cuz we gotta at least do two pages of this.

Two. We’ve all. Not even.

Done one. No, I know. But the next one only has two dudes and we have lots of, of.

Questions. Okay. That’s a goal. Okay.

Here we go. Kay. Jones ask when scouting a new area. What are, what are something you are looking for Mueller specifically?

I think a lot of it depends on the season that you’re scouting for.

Yeah. If you’re archery tag versus a later season rifle hunt, it’s completely different, but track.


Of the time when, when I’m scouting feed and I’m really scout putting time into it. I haven’t earlier season tag personally. Yeah. And archery months loader. So I mean, yeah. I usually gravitate in our neck of the woods water sources. If you can run cameras in that state or place that least give you maybe an inventory of what’s around, you know, I mean obviously, obviously they.

Look for Wyatt’s truck.

Yeah. I don’t know about that.

Vegetation treatments or burns or things like that, where usually they’re, you know, if they’re of the right age, they’re probably gonna have.

Three, three to five years.

Old. They’re gonna have deer using them deer, you know, you can glass up and things like that. But not also, not always. I mean, I’ve been in plenty of places with burns and all that. You don’t don’t can’t find a deer in them sometimes. Yeah. So it’s not universal, but man, that’s a tough question to nail down perfectly. But I guess I spend a lot of time glassing and I run some cameras is a supplemental way, but I guess if you’re in high country and things like that, where waters everywhere cameras are, you know, not as useful, you’re it’s gonna be time on the ground that.

I don’t know. And we have some guys with some of these late season tags that are, you know, making trips to Colorado and, and I’m like, Hey, just, just, don’t be disappointed when you don’t see much, just.

Learn the low country roads, learn the roads. Where are you gonna camp or stay or yep. Glassing van points. I, I identify a lot of those places where, you know, Hey, that’s where the sun’s coming ups where it’s going down. That’s where I’d want to be here when I want to be here. Things like that. That’s right. I don’t know. It’s a.

Lot more crucial to probably spend your time two, three days before the hunt than it is. Yeah. In the summertime on a lot of those Colorado hunting, what.

Am I looking for? Yeah. Late season. I’m looking for do yeah,

Exactly. Number.

Early. I’m not bucks like do.

Early. I not I’m looking for, you know, you know, places where box BA plate that’s are gonna be summer. That’s.

Right. That’s right. Yep. I agree. And then feed and a lot of this is not something I, I can’t write down on paper, I’ll rip through a unit and there’s just some places I gravitate to. And I don’t know why necessarily I can’t really identify it on paper, in an outlined format of why I like this place. You know, there’s just some places that are Bucky.

Yeah. And it remind it reminds you of other places you’ve seen in other places. Usually whether it be the bitter brush or sometimes Oak brush component, I’ve had.

Good experiences in yeah. Lots of kill scenes in buck in brush like this. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. Some places are just Bucky and then there were some that you have to learn. So like for example, Nevada, early season Bronson, some of these lower desert units remember, I mean, you think, well let’s kind of go to the higher stuff. The higher stuff’s the nursery generally the do funds. Small bucks. Yeah. And then once in a while there’s a big buck down Lois where all the big bucks and past bucks are that. And then there’s a couple of bad, a dough that I just love. Yeah. They’ll have twins down there in the desert and I’m like, you are an awesome bra. And I love.


Gnarly, you know? And, and.

She’s the one on her truck am on our Hend. Feet kicking off the box,


She’s kicking off the bucks.

I love it. Crowded up. She’s just fatty. But then there’s and then the bucks down there, generally you have bucks, the older bucks, mature bucks, whatever. The low country in all of these units right here in Nevada, especially Utah down there, there’s summer in bucks, down in the, in what you would call winter range. And I love that stuff. And I’ve learned, you know, you, if there’s Joshua trees, don’t overlook it. But that took me that wasn’t intuitive. That’s something came from experience. Experience. Yeah. Did wasn’t like I drove through there and go, wow, I love this 110 degree heat. And these, these cactuses really do it for.

Me. They throw a little shade. Nice coming. You know? No,

You don’t think no. You once in a while, you’re go. Where did that deer come from? Why is that deer here? This is ugly crap I’ve ever seen in my life. And then four years later you’re going, if I’d have known this five, six years ago, I’d have killed something. You know what I mean? And so how many, how many times would you guys, do you guys think of Devin? Why Adam, Josh, like, if I would’ve known then would I know now? Yeah. I mean, they were hunting some of these units, you know, during freaking Thanksgiving with rifles or whatever. If I would’ve Bronson, there was a 2 41 tag. Remember back in the day for like 32 50. Yeah. And we were like, we don’t, nobody would hunt that you hunt 2 42, then all of a sudden you find out actually it might even be better. And you just like, why did I, if I’d have known then would I known now? You know what I mean? I think.

It’s about an everyday occurrence for sure. Well, we talked, you learned something new and you’re like, oh, if I would’ve known that even a year ago, 10 years.

Ago, like you find a water, a game changer, you find a water. You’re like, how many freaking two, 300 inch and 2, 2 26 typicals of watered air, you know? Yeah. Over the years, Josh, you found a new wallow what? Two days ago. Yeah.

How many big bulls of wallowed there that you, and if you’d have known that back, you know, whatever. Right. I mean, just, I don’t know. I think about it all the time, but, but so some of it is just a matter of spending time and some of it’s just a look and feel. I think Colorado we’ve all spent so much time in Colorado. It’s a look and feel and not to say that that’s only where the big bucks are. There’s gonna be a big buck killed and the thickest Bronson, you killed him, the thickest Cedars or junipers, I don’t know what technically they were, but the thickest crap ever doesn’t necessarily.

Remind me.

What, what 61?


Yeah. I mean doesn’t necessarily just was a of Joe, a giant buck. You know what I mean? But it was a gift.

Kind of a gift. You get, you kill ’em like that. Sometimes you find ’em and a hundreds, a hundred yards below ’em and look in the other direction. Yeah. That was that story.

Yeah. It was.

Had to let him get out of the way. And he walked right to me.

Remember that, but, but why were you there and did when we’re driving through, maybe you.

Divert. I saw no, I saw six, seven do in the two track driving up that road one day and I’m like, there’s some do here. I’m gonna come back here in a few days. Okay. I went back there to find ’em in that’s right.

270, but it’s not like the country. Todd said,

If I wouldn’t have seen those do, if I wouldn’t have seen those, do I might not ever came back.

Right. So there’s things like that. That happen. There’s.

There’s it was way out of the way from where I was really hunting. I just, well, there’s six or eight do here. No buck with them. Third season’s coming up. I better come.

Check him and days. Good friend of ours killed a 36 inch basically. Typical years ago, Wyatt, good friend of yours and all of ours on the Arizona, Utah border, early season, you know what I mean? A buck that’s summer down low. And you just think, well, that isn’t normal. That wasn’t nor a normal situation. And maybe not. When you drive through there, this is Bucky and this reeks of a giant,

But some of those low country had a lot more hay fields and stuff running around like that. Some years to get a bunch of hay down there in lower P lower, lower pots and or other places. And other years they don’t have water to do it. So year to year and state to state that scouting. And what you’re looking for it’s changes.

Goes back to that local knowledge there, even though there’s there’s things we can put on paper that we like and, and how we’d go about it. Then there says something to be said for the local knowledge, like if I’m going to Reno to hunt, like I’m not gonna, it’s not, I’m not gonna be that effective. I feel like I, I could be pretty effective for a newbie, but I, but they’re those local guys. They know that stuff. They know where they would, you know, where they would start right off the bat. Chris Lacey, I’m not gonna compete with him. He knows what he’s doing. Right. You know what I mean? Just, just all right. Why you got anything else to add?

No, I think that covers that question.

Kevin, Josh, we good. Let’s move on. What.

Are we calling him? Question reader, guy.

He’s a question. Reader guy hit us next.

Go. We can find out more synonyms for narrator. Just so we can finally let’s.

Skip this question.

What? No, this.

One, this is the best question.

Do you mean it’s.

Gonna be easy? This should breeze right through it. You tell us. And we move on. This.

Was a valid question that was numbered and entered in the giveaway. I feel like him needs.

To answer. Give him his due.

Pedro Sandoval says, how big of a buck will it take for Jason? This is for Jason only to pull a trigger this.

Year. It’s not just for me. I’m gonna open it up to you. No, to the.

Board. My name is not on there. I can’t, I don’t see my name.

I don’t. It goes back to so I, so I, I killed, there’s a buck that I, that I killed. It was 2 0 9. He’s not mounted right now. Why? Because he’s pencils. He’s pencils. Like he doesn’t Wak of, you know what I mean? And so my point it’s like, it’s easy to put a score. I’m not gonna kill anything under 200.

Describe the two 10.


Describe it.

He needs to be freaking heavy, heavy that Buckeye killed in Colorado. He’s 2 0 6. He’s in the front room. I like him. Yeah. His beans. What, what do we call that? Was it marbling? Or what do we call that? Pearling? No pearling. I hate that name. I, I hate that word. What’s.

It called? When pearling, when they.

Do a pearling is feminine. I’ve got pearls.

That’s like an ice skating move or.

Something. Sounds like something clam would put out like it’s, you know, it.

Just like Pearl,

Just those little bumps that turn white when they rub.

Stuff. And they said, you know, pearling happens when what,

When deer healthy,

Super great body condition. And, and maybe they’re not gonna put out another point, but they’re maximizing the points. They have it’s oozy pump oozing with nutrients, right. This deer did that. This deer did that. And, and, and he had super fat beams. Just fat beams that you can’t.

Do. You like dark antlers?

Yeah. I.

Like dark antlers. Could we call it? He’s looking for the black Pearl?

No, no, because I’m hunting in places that don’t have ’em okay.

The black Pearl doesn’t fit.

Dark chocolate, nothing wrong with a didn’t spray off tan.

Didn’t didn’t it take a copious amount of time to decide to pull the trigger on that.

Deer though. Oh, it did. Oh yeah. I almost got called. It.

Did, but I think part of that is it had a Colorado body. And you, and have you ever judged anything at 80 yards? I can judge at 400 with 15.

Easier at 80. You’re.

Thinking at 80. I’m like, okay, I’ve done this before. That that buck is no longer in my position. I made knife, handles. Somebody made knife, handles out of him. I’ve learned my lesson and I’m just like, am I misjudging this buck 80 yards with any kind of optic at all? Am I misjudging? And he’s got a freaking, let’s just call it a 300 pound body,

Big body.

Yeah. A giant body, Colorado bucks are freaking hard to judge. I passed a typical in 44. I never should have passed. Well, you look like a 24 inch, four point. Yeah. On a Colorado body net book. Typical. You know what I mean? Walks away outta your life. Never to come back. And so I guess, I guess I like freaking pipe mass and we were talking about points around the bases and I guards and Bronson. Your, your Idaho butt came up. Okay. You, I mean, you cut him off 10 inches up off the shank off the head. I’s still shoot. I’d still pound him.

There’s so many points you can’t hold on to him. I love that. So that’s pretty fun. I’d like to put a number to it, but basically it just, just that kind of how something that makes you breathless. You’re just like, I, I want to kill something. You walk up and you just takes your breath away and, and, and each time lucky enough to have done it, a couple of times you, each time it happens, you’re like, is this gonna be my last one? And it does. It’s getting tougher and tougher with this drought. I do feel like maybe, maybe we never get our breath taken away again, but we’re gonna die trying, you know what I mean? Does it feel like that to.

You guys? Yeah. Yeah. Nope. So that’s a very ambiguous answer to Pedro’s question, but, but yeah, I know what you mean. So.

Two 10 pipe.

HES. Okay. Two 10 ish pipe mask. Two 10 is 200. If he’s built. Well, of course,

2 26, typical 2 27.

There’s a lot of deer out there that just are big, but they don’t score big.

They’re just big. Yeah.


Mean there’s, if he has a weak crab cloud fork, but he’s 37 inches wide and mass pipe, mass and old age.

Old. I like age,

Age. I’m dumping.

It’s hard not to kill age if,

And you know, if he’s old and you know, that’s what he is. Yeah. He, what I’m looking at is what he is and is what he’s gonna be. And he’s old, mature. I shot that in Colorado a couple years ago. Yeah. You do the wide one. Slick Chaker I might had a crab front. No, I guard. So I’m like he’s 32 or three wide I’m and he’s old, big white face Rutten. I’m like,

You’re what? Devin? You you’re Colorado buck.

Oh yeah. Same thing. Same.

Thing. Neither. The biggest, what did he end up scoring?

What was it? What? One.

Eighties. Yeah, high one.

Eighties was just, just the hair under one 90.

The biggest 180 S I think you’ve.

Ever seen crabby France,

But no, I guards and no giant guards backs and mass.

Disgusting appointments.

28, just over 28 wide.

When you shot him, sent us pictures. I’m like, I, I’m not gonna.

Look lie. You told the story before.

Jealous. I was like, pull over right now and.

Score. You told me that you pull over, you pull over the highway right.

Now. Yeah.


Looked like the, and.

Then you came back.

We rushed it with the.

Dad, infamous.

Dad’s tape and well.

That it did shriveled.

Too. Too much makes a tape that doesn’t no.

Tor. Remember how they get frayed and he cut it off at one inch. Just so it’d be a.

Clean, fresh, I have no idea. So.

One person knew that.

And you’re like, dude, this thing’s upper nineties. I’m like, I knew it. I knew it,

But it makes 200. Yeah. It was 15 inches. Bigger than it should have been. Let’s just say that almost.

But it was believable. I didn’t care. It was believable.

I don’t, I didn’t care. I didn’t think does that deer gonna score?


The type of thing.


You just got, it’s just the look. Some bucks, just have a look. And that buck just had the look, man. I.

Feel like score kind of underappreciate a lot of deer.

Sometimes I’ve got a pair of sheds that are 2 27 that are pencils and you would, they’re nice, but they’re giant, but they’re just nice when you hold them. And then you got a pair that are freaking monster.

Mass, 1 91 95, 4 point or something.

Yeah. I mean, geez. You know, I, I lay awake at night. I, I hold them daily. You know what I mean?

I feel like it’s, we don’t see as many deer with mass mass. Yeah. That’s what comes with age. Just don’t it comes with age. Yeah. It’s, it’s harder to find a buck with age for that mass.

So we need to only hunt areas that can do that. That’s what you, I mean, that’s strip.

I mean, Arizona strip is basically what we need strip.

Some weird places we need to go to. You need to go to weird places with old deer. Yeah. On good wet years. And then other than that, you have water ski. It’s.

Gonna be interesting to see how that trail camera thing plays out, down there in Arizona. And what kind of deer that brings.

Back. Tell me why everybody. Everybody says truck cameras. Don’t shoot bucks. Okay. But, but every guy down there knows what’s coming. Yep. In two to three years from now, it’s gonna be disgusting. Don’t isn’t it. Oh,

I think it’s gonna be awesome.


It’s true.

All right. Okay. Well, let’s move on. I mean, something gnarly, who knows? Okay. Who knows? It might be 120 inch, 1400.

And I.

Dunno what,

I don’t know. Hundred.

And something. 2 27. Typical. Okay, here we go. Hey, you got it. You, if you feel tags, you don’t have any option to, you don’t have any chance of killing the new world record. Typical. That’s.


So just leave those tags UN punched. All right. Here we go.

Austin Murdoch asks what sets epic outdoors apart from other tag services out there also what’s Jason’s favorite truck now for hunting.


Why you have probably the most knowledge about other services you came from.

Another service. I did. Yeah. So as far as the tag service, I would say probably the biggest thing that sets us apart is our personalization. I mean, we have a really good team here and we treat everybody as if we’re applying ourselves, we go through and look at everybody’s profile. As we are applying them, select their units ourselves. As we, as if we were applying ourselves,

I like it. I think that’s right. Yeah. I think we take pride.

Experience and, and, and yeah, take it. We take the criteria that the Hunter’s given us as much as we can glean from them and then filter that through to, is he guided unguided? Can he go horseback? He doesn’t want that. What weapon can he hunt with? You know, all those types of things, the trophy criteria. And don’t just slap everybody in for the same old, you know, easy units, you know, and hope for the best.

I think we look at it through our, our perspective too, as if it’s our own tag and we’re not afraid to think outside the box, we grabbed a guy that would normally just hunt thes on a strip. We grabbed him another tag and he smashed a two 30 S buck or two 40 buck last.

Year. Yeah. Yeah.

Right. And so we’re just, I think.

We were confident enough with the unit from personal experience or enough knowing about it. Right. Had the knowing he was gonna go guided that’s right. You know, and I know this is when you say tag service, Austin, I’m assuming you’re talking about license application service, but I guess maybe if you’re talking about just a tag acquisition service magazine in the magazine, I would still put our experience and our cruise experience up. We, we have the most longevity when you add it up collectively in this realm of writing and researching about applying for tags in the west, that.

That’s, and, and the experience like that’s what I’m saying. And like Devin, you said it best the other day. When you mentioned, look at the tags alone, we’re doing this year. Just look at ’em. It’s not, we’re not touting that we’re just getting any old dear tag. A lot of people will say, I just want a deer tag. I’ll get any tag I can get, I just want a deer tag. Like that’s not we’re we’re so focused on what’s new. What’s exciting. What’s making this unit come on strong. Why, why, why the phenomena over here? Oh, look at these burns. Maybe we consider that. Well, we need to keep track of.

This. We we’ve move around so much. Like in Colorado, over almost 20 years now of hunting, I’ve been around and I’m, I’m back to units that I was, that I left alone for 10 years because they were terrible. Yeah. So that goes back to what you’re saying, being on top of trends right now, and what’s gonna be coming the near future, whether that be burns, whether that be tag cuts, whether that be seasoned adjustments. Somehow, whether that be, you know, trail cam regulations, whatever.

We’re not afraid to eat tags. We’re not afraid to try it’s.

Boots on the ground experience. You learn lots, exactly what I was gonna say out there. Boots on the ground hunting. We’re not riding on just past your information. Henry mountains is the best in Utah.

So applies every one of our guys.

10 years ago, but.

Not so much.

We see it, we see it with our eyes.

So, and that’s what I think, Devin, your point, did you have anything to add for that? It was just like, you were just like, well, I.

Just think collectively the guys in this room right here, like how many tags we have and then time’s that by the last couple years and how many units and miles and time and days and months we’ve put in out there. Yeah.

And then when people call in, we have enough, we have enough experience around whatever they’re talking about to actually hear what they’re telling us. You know what I mean? This is where I went. This is what I saw. Oh really? And, and about elk or deer, maybe they had a deer tag, but maybe we’re learning something about elk and we can actually listen to what they’re saying. Yeah. We have a lot of members that are pretty darn good hunters well,

And formulate that into our response for what’s best for them and their situation and whatever their question is, you know? Right. So take the knowledge that we’ve had and apply it to it guide real real world. When you call in as a member of epic outdoors, whether that be a magazine and consulting service or a license application, individual, to apply that knowledge and you know, information that we’ve, we’ve acquired and continue to and personalize it to that guy. It’s just hard to, hard to wrap your head around that. It’s easy to say the word experience and the team has a depth of experience and that’s, if you had to simplify it, that’s what it would come down to. But there’s a whole different way of how to put that into personal strategy and approach and trying to draw the best tags or apply ’em for the best tags that fit him or her.

So, okay. Favorite truck one that gets you home. I, I have so many favorites. It’s a good answer. I have so many favorites. I love a power wagon. I love a power wagon. The Z two, we’re running heavy Bronson and I run heavy. Love.

Them, love truck for hunt trucks. It’s incredible.

I had a, an old, the old style Tundra that, you know, Wyatt and Devon are running a bit of. And then they’re run new ones too. I, I love that. I love that one too. I’ve run those one of my favorites for old time. Cheap trucks was the 2001. F-150 heavy half that 7,700. I mean maybe, maybe the best old used truck I’ve ever had. Just, I mean, I had it in some crazy, crazy, Hey, Hey, wheels off the ground frame, twisting sucker, and then Wyatt proceeds to tell me he knows a lot of lion hunters that love that same basic model. Yeah.

I’ve seen a lot of lion hunters running those old.

Fors and gas. They’re hard on it. 5.4 shorter.

Wheel bay, you know, not extend cab and get around.

To see the trees. Yeah. Actually the extended cab. Yeah. Extended cab. Yeah.

Extended. No, I’m saying the non that’s what you’re talking about.

No. Or did you have it extended cab? Yeah. I.

Thought you had the old,


You’re talking to green.

Green was extended. Cut. Yeah.

How about the T 100? Didn’t you sell that to Chris or something? Or did you.

Ever have one? I had the, that was an old style Tundra. 2000 Tundra.

He put 300,000.

Yeah. I thought it was wore out at 150.

Chris sold it and made money.

Chris, Chris didn’t have brakes as he rolled into trade it in and slept in it overnight and then traded it in. Like, and that was a truck. He, he got good use out. The one thing that bothers me about those, the Toyotas, and I know you guys are gonna beat me up over, I see him pretty regular along the side of the road with the front wheel, came down joint and that’s old. That’s the only thing. That’s the only thing about him. Other than Bronson, we basically had to go see a chiropractor after we got done on some trail cam trips. You.

Did. I, I, I didn’t, I didn’t, like.

You said, it was rough.

Yeah. The rougher, I don’t like, have you seen the shocks that come on a sta stack Tacoma or a stock Tacoma looks 20.

We bought ’em brand.

New one. I’ve seen shocks that are bigger on some of these e-bikes.

Okay. Well, this e-bike definitely got your attention.

That was in the, so I’m just saying, they’re not, you have to modify those a lot more. And I know you’re saying, well, if you buy a Z two, you’re paying for that. Okay. Well, yeah, but it’s all comes from the factory and it’s all CR.

Two does have lockers all the way around.

Locker, front rear. I mean, love it. And Shas.

Smooth, smooth. I’m running the diesel Z two. And even in the sand, I’m telling you, there is nothing like it. My kid took his 4runner out there in the sand, buried it. Well, BA basically he’s like, I, I can’t believe now, looking back with your Z two, he says I’m blown away. It is very, but now, Hey, I’m gonna be, you see me in a great, big old 3,500 diesel. I don’t know.

Well, not in the sand. No, trust me. No, otherwise, but I’m gonna tell you’re gonna have sand anchor and a lot of.

Rope. I’ve tried to get, stay away from the diesels because you can’t really hunt in ’em in mud and sand and stuff like that. But Hey, I’m gonna end up falling. We end.

That trap. We end up having a hammer truck and a, and a bigger one to get you to.

Camp and stuff. Oh, all your stuff. We’re gonna have to insert a story. Does anybody have a kill story? Be thinking of a kill story because you can only do so many questions before we need a kill story. Okay. Well, and I, bro, it’s about your turn by the way, what you got some kill stories you haven’t talked about. Well,

I don’t know what one, but do we want to try to tackle these next two? There’s two more that have.

Question reader, guy.

How to, we’re gonna have to try to go through quick. I don’t want to go on for 14 hours, but.

This one will. I feel like question might be 14.

These next two are a little bit long, but I think we, if we get through them, we’ve at least made a big dent. We’re gonna have another podcast or 2, 2, 2.


Three out of this. So anyway, but let’s try to get through these next two today, before we go have some Mexican food.


Okay. Here we go. This comes from Dan Ryan. He, he says with more serious slash educated hunters in the field, better gear, making hunters more proficient, large scale Outfitters and social media highlight reels, raising the expectations as many. It’s hard not to refute that more large box poles and sheep get targeted and killed every year compared to 25 years ago. This in this in turn means potentially less older age class, genetically superior animals on the landscape. If you had a magic wand, what would you take away to better hunting quality of animals, large scale guides, long range rifles, social media trail, cameras, apps like OnX. I know it’s loaded question either way, but love to hear the perspective since I love hunting. And don’t exactly like the way it’s becoming the sun in some areas, I always pride myself on being adaptable, but some days I miss what hunting was. Thanks. Keep it up.

That was my point about the 72 7 flannel.


You know,

When you a Woodstock and a fixed four scope, you mean? Yeah.

All that. A straight eight Simmons, 30,

30 level action. Fixed four loop. Hold on. That’s I start off hunting nuts.

You know don’t who does not just tell me this, you listeners out there who does not miss those days.

Pretty simple days didn’t even have holdovers taped to your stock.

There was, I remember the holdover, my first buck. Okay. So here, there’s your.

Hunting story?

I guess those, my first buck, it was back up Floyd canyon. And some of that, it was basically over the counter back then it was over the counter back then. And in this particular part of it bordered the limited entry. And I remember as my mom’s.

7 0 8, no.

Three, no, they didn’t make it. Then they a 3 0 8. Okay. Yeah. And it had a Magna port, what they call a Magna port and it was slits cutting the barrel. It’s a cheap, basically a cheap break break. And it was cut down for her size. I was borrowing it. Right. I’m a kid I’m I’m whatever, 14 or so. Yeah, whatever. And I still have pictures back. We, we took a three Wheeler up there to, to, to Terry our tents or whatever. And this thing was, I don’t know, it felt like it was 24 inches long from in to end. Okay. And it was me and my dad and we laid out our bullets on the rock and we went to town working.

On you, glassed a up.

Walking. Oh yeah. We glassed a buck up with, I don’t know what,

Yeah, I don’t,

It could be just two tubes with no lenses. Yeah. I don’t know. And, and we walked, walked bullets into this buck and I hit it first. How long did and last 40 dad’s.

Think it was,

I guess it’s yours. So I stretch over there and I had to finish it off. And I think, I think realistic go is probably 350 yards. It fell like four 14 miles who has a range.

Finder. Oh yeah.

There was no range finder. And so anyway,

That was the first.

Buck first, my first buck ever. Yeah. I was a four point and then I swore I would never kill anything less than a four point. And I think I’ve talked about that and probably podcast number 202 or something. But anyway, basically that’s happened. I don’t kill anything that basically tagged anything.

Less than a four point. You know what I’d love to see. We’ve seen a couple of these, you and I saw some field time.


No. Well, oh,


Three points that are legit. I think you saw one or two last year. Aren’t you about a three,

A three by four, two years ago. That.

Still, you still live awake at night. Thinking about, but.


Old, like you’re talking the bases as I guards went way.

Forward. Describe candle,

Wax, little heavy dark.

You see what a three point with I guards this big, he forts in the back ands big bladed beams. The.

Dive down. Is he?

What about that shed? That I point shed. I have that, that you were,

I would love to see the three point that gets Carter to break his own oath.

Netbook is that three point shed with netbook? Typical?


It’s giant.

Well that book, but I mean, would it take that? I mean it seriously 180, 180 5 pipe mash three point with five inch high guards. No, come on,

Come on. You’re nuts. You’re walking up to it and you’re going, duh.


To get a four point out of that one. The eye guards.

Hit color says, bro. Yeah. It’s scoreable it’s four. That means it has to be.

Aing about genetic deficiencies. Josh. Gosh,

He’s the biggest guy,

Misty Fior.

I’m like thinking Josh is the biggest buries guy here and you’re talking about.

Genetic least all efficiency. He’s a genetic wonder. That’s for sure.


A lot of wonders things.

Well, we.

Do have a, I don’t know how we do have a Misty Fjord story. What you said you were gonna talk about shanks.


Can. Okay. End of end of podcast.


If we can do that,

Pray about it. I’m okay. I don’t want, I don’t want you make you place. You don’t.

Wanna don’t I have no shame. Well, I.

Not talk about everything.

No, there’s just some times in your life.

You’re ready to dump.

So there’s certain promises you make to yourself even, you know, and then there’s a lot of certain things that you say, okay, if that deer does a, then I do B and there’s kind of a check. Pretty.


You walked yourself into big plumes of air coming out of the side of him.

Yeah, it’s true. And, and that can happen quicker when you’re, I don’t know, in 10 days, deep of Nevada by yourself, 10.

Days into,

And you got another hunch.

And yeah. And then you have, you’re like tomorrow I should be in another state. That’s 14 hours from here. And I I’m, I’m kind of past this one. Now I’m looking forward to that one pandemic.


I really liked how this deer started out from the first 10 inches of shank. Pretty legit. Yeah.

Oh yeah. And he was like a big old deer, old, like, I mean, awesome Cape on him, just like a big old, heavy deer. And he just didn’t grow crap. And I, I really, when I first saw him this deer, I was just going along. It was a really foggy, foggy morning. I couldn’t miss.


Fjords. I couldn’t see more than a few hundred yards. Good. Like these, these deer, they were in some hayfield as I was driving along. And I was like, dang, that looks like a big buck, but he was bed way in the back. Well, I guess was in the middle of the field because there was a big section that hadn’t been cut because of the way the irrigation in the field was. And he was bed right at that. And I was like, man, that looks like a big buck. I could just see his face and his body and an outline. And I mean, he was like a 27, 8 inch deer. I was just like, geez, that, that looks like a big deer, but I couldn’t see because it was so foggy and as well, I’ll just keep working down along these edges of these, these fields, there was kind of fields. And, and then the hillside, the deer were going up on and I just kept working that stuff, glass and it, and I told myself, man, if that buck comes outta the field, like he I’m dumping him. And I didn’t even really look at him. And, but the odds of that happening.

Were plus you wanted this gun, you wanted this gun to,

Yeah. I never killed a deer or with this gun killed it. Well, I’d killed a co the perfect.

Storm. It was, it was, that’s.

What I was just it like, I.

Was like, you did smash a, it Kyle. That was super impressive.

Yeah. But not long range and slightest. I, I think if I remember right, I shot him lefthanded even anyway,

First kill.

So I, there were a lot of things that were lined up that deer, that it was gonna die if it happened. And anyway, fast forward a little bit later, and all of a sudden those deer came out of the field at a quick clip, cuz like the farmer or somebody had come in there that I didn’t expect it. I.

Had started a tractor.

Cover some cover some country. And anyway, needless to say, I it’s meant.

To be never.

Even really did look the, started.

Running away on what happens. Yeah. And so I just, yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Fuck we back we back. Yep. No, no one was there to.

Check me.

I’d already breath coming outta the Box’s mouth as he’s pantsing.

I had set the checklist and he had checked every box and there he was on the BLM in front of me.

You arranged little section dialed. Yeah. Arranged.

Him and dialed. And I.

Was just like, how far was it? Good.

Yeah, it was six something. No, no, no. It was just right around five. Okay. And anyway, just down into this, I was up higher and he was kind of down into the Sage brush and shot and it was so foggy and humid that morning when I hit him, he took off running. It was a double lung and he just had just steam rolling out. I kind of wish it would’ve been on video cuz it was pretty awesome. That’s how cuz you know, I, I came off the gun for a minute and got on. I heard it smacked, but I looked and you could just see steam rolling out of both sides of him.

Cause he just that crazy.

It was pretty awesome. And then I got up to him and.

I, you sent us a picture shanks. Yeah. Adam’s like where’s the rest of you? It was pathetic. Well it looked awesome. I wanted to see, I was like, where’s the rest of him, but I’m like,

I think it was a teaser pick.

Wasn’t it? Of the,

Of the Cape of his face. Yeah. His face, his faces.

And you know how every teaser pick in the world is because, you know, anyway, you never get a teaser pick of a two 50 buck. It’s always like, what do you think of this? It’s full on great pitch. Yeah. But.

So it was one of those deer I wasn’t necessarily proud of. Probably never see a picture of it.

It was what I think, I think was cool. I mean, dude, he was a wide deer. He’s just old. Yeah. He wasn’t perfect genetic wise, but you know, got on the board with a good long range shot. It was one of those, you know, you were trying out a couple things. I think the new range finding, was it the new range? Finding binos. Yeah. Yeah. The SW yeah,

A lot of different new equipment. I, I suppose you.

Could, it was time to call it a day. You had another hunt gonna be transpired at Colorado till.

180 5 buck like the next day. Didn’t you or two days later. Yeah. In Colorado. So I.

Was good down there. It was good. I had to, I had to get down there and, and apparently from what Jason describes to me in that deer had a lot in common, you know, pretty genetically inferior,

Not inferior. I say inferior old, heavy.

Genetically. Not, not.

On should be. I said it was a genetic wonder. So.

He and I.

Got a big base Baal area are.

Good. Good base on it. Grief. All right. Anyway, question, read your guide. We, we gotta answer this question, answer it. We gotta this.

Show around. What would you do? Everybody give a little bit of a magic.

Wand opinion, magic.

Wand. If the magic wand, I, I guess I don’t think individually like social media or apps like Onyx are, are the reason what we are social media stuff gets,

They don’t pull the trigger.

No social media gets stuff overhyped. And just like women that are complaining about, you know, everybody gets filters.

We’re really going there.

Yeah. I am that every woman looks beautiful because of filters and all this and that. Not and every buck can look big because of social media and everybody’s killing one, but me, you can get that feeling on social media, but that still doesn’t mean everybody’s killing big bucks and killing all the big bucks. I do think of, of all these things that the technology, the advancements that we all have, some of which I, I don’t know how you’re ever gonna go back from the best buys that we’ve ever had, you know, or rifle, scopes or rifles. I don’t know how you limit somebody and say, you can’t shoot an animal over 4, 5, 600 yards. I don’t know how you can enforce certain things like that, but you can do things on other weapons, you know, like say muzzle loaders. You, I do think in some of the states that have had heavy T cam and bathing issues, that’s a bigger deal than most people are wanting to admit that it is.

I, I just, I just do. And, and I’m talking mainly with mule deer elk. I don’t know that that’s, you know, near as big a deal. I think TRO cameras have killed elk during the Rud in certain places. No question about that. But I think Gilder, I think, I think those things are gonna help. I do think limiting our technology, you know, the use of like say thermal, I think that, you know, doesn’t get talked about it a lot. Most people that use it, don’t talk about it at all. Even though it’s being used and kind of underground and Hey, it’s been illegal. So I’m not, I’m not telling people you did it wrong or anything like that in the past. I just think collectively some of these things that you can say, Hey, that’s a little bit too much. We’re not gonna do that.

We’ll have an impact, but I, I don’t know how you say, Hey, the binos, the guns, the guides. I mean, some states, I guess, are taking steps on the number of guides you can have with you in the field. Namely Utah, there’s a law passed here. So maybe that’s a step to the, you know, 25 guides. But I mean, other states, I don’t know if that’s gonna catch on like it, like it’s been passed in Utah. And, and I think for the most part that’s being done on the one or two tags in a state, you know what I mean? A governor tag situation or something it’s not being done by, it can’t be cost effective for Outfitters to have that many guides with every hunter. I mean, I’m an outfitter. And I know even on the Henry mountains, my crew is always outmanned by a normal Joe blow that has eight or 10 of his family out there.

It’s always outmanned and, and we’ve still done fine. I’m not complaining about it, but I’ve never had more guys on the field than other normal hunters have had on the field with me in the Henry mountains in places like that. I’ve never, you know, we have two to three, maybe max four. And that’s usually, if we finish 100, we got a couple guys come over sheep. I, I, I don’t have any objections killing the oldest. That’s what we should do, sheep or a ticking time bomb. I don’t have as much. You, you know, you talked about deer elk and sheep being older sheep, whether it be trail cameras or glass or more hunters, I, sheep are just a different thing. When Ram’s eight, 10 years old, you’re better kill him. Cause he’s gonna be dead in the rocks at any time. And to, and to large extent, deer and elk two they’re, I don’t wanna see him wasted, but I don’t have as much. I, I like to have some deer to just get away, I guess. And I don’t know how to, it’s harder that it’s.

Harder to judge age on Deere. So I think like cheap, you could say that that Ram’s eight years old or nine years old. Like you need to shoot that.

Ram. He’s gonna be dope. Yeah, dear. You never know. Sometimes if he’s five or nine and where he is at, you know, on the death scale yeah. Of his life. But I don’t know. It’s a hard one to quantify, but I, I understand. I mean the rifles and, and optics probably have played a big, bigger impact perhaps than more than any of the technology. But I just don’t know how you govern it. Say without saying, you can’t have above this magnification power on your, on your gun or.

Scope it all scope. That’s the only thing you could ever do.

I just don’t know how you hit.

All that out. Like on monster mules, right? Why you were seeing some,

Yep. People have thrown that out a lot. Four power scopes,

Four pins limited to four pins.

On a boats on your bow. But you look at technology and how far we’ve came in the last 15 years. What’s 10 years from now gonna be, I know it’s hard to think we can get much better.

Well, now people are shooting they’re anyway, you’re you’re range finders, hooking to your scope and adjusting your scope without a lot of effort.

So there’s things like that. There’s certain things that we’ve talked about, like maybe, maybe some of the thermal during the hunts and that, that feels like, all right, maybe that’s crossing the line. Being able to find an animal before daylight be on it, shoot ’em right. Daylight or find it in daylight, you know, behind the, in the trees. I, I mean, maybe it feels wrong to some people maybe it’s it is wrong. Some of those things feel like, okay, you can’t use thermal. I don’t know how you regulate the caliber, a gun, the, the bullet you shoot and the scope really here’s effectively.

Here’s one for let you do four, no smokeless powder. And Muzz have you ever been checked? Would an officer know how to tell the difference between smokeless and not?

Yeah, probably. Maybe bell. Maybe not with black horn.

Maybe, but, but I’m just saying those are hard things to regulate. So Devin, you got any ideas,

Oh, magic wand that you would take away from this list. It’d have to be, I mean, right down to the science of it, I’d say it’d be the rifles.


And because without those things can still get away, like with all that in the list,

How, okay. So, yeah. And I, and I agree, and I’ve just kind.

You listed of all.

Those criteria.

Then are you gonna do a three to nine power scope action? Be.

Tur you couldn’t, you can’t tell someone,

I mean, you could make a non us turt,

You know? Yeah. You could only limit what they can do with their piece of.

Equipment. So a scope would limit the guns.

You’d have. Yeah. I mean, imagine one of these general units in Utah, you just say it’s an open site rifle unit. Yeah. I don’t know lever. That’s all you could.

Ever do. Only.

What, why what’s some of your ideas? I,

I don’t have many besides what you guys have already talked about long range rifles. Definitely. Probably, probably one of the top killers out there. I mean, optics goes hand in hand with that though, too. I mean, great glass being able to glass things up that, that distance range finders being able to get an.

Accurate range.

Fine. So we could only use a certain brand of optic yeah. To, to limit the quality,

You know? Yeah. To scuff 75% of your lens.


Well even if you glass, em, if you’re hunting with a 30, 30, you still gotta go in and kill him. Yeah. You know, like, I don’t know,

Josh, you got any ideas.

I think collectively has all of ’em have some, I don’t think social media does because you can’t tell anything on social media, but OnX personally for me, when I think about, or I would say my generation or younger generation below me, I’m not saying that’s, what’s the cause. But I feel like with, with apps like OnX or a Google earth, something like that, a lot of guys are finding out how to get into weird places and weird spots, finding waters that never existed, that they would’ve had to have hiked to before. I don’t know. Something like that. I feel like personally has helped me because I I’ll spend a lot of time just looking at OnX like, whoa. Yeah. I’ve lived here my whole life 40 years. And I didn’t realize this little child I’m still discovering, I guess why I say I’m discovering stuff that I’ve never been to.

That I never would’ve just hiked to for a G whiz that I’ve found on first to give me a reason to go there first. I, yeah. Is it killing or anything like that? I, I don’t know. But what I’m saying is it’s giving me more options to get out. Cause I look at a lot of harvest data and there’s a lot of harvest stuff that percentages of harvest hasn’t gone up or changed a whole lot. But I feel like we’re more efficient with the ones we are killing. So long range rifles, optics, range, finders, all that we can target a bitter bigger buck, a better buck. We don’t just go out and kill a deer. We’re killing a specific deer, trying to hunt a specific, a specific deer. And so all of it helps, but I feel like some of those type of things almost help a guy that maybe say is new to hunting or doesn’t know much about hunting, helps him get an advantage a lot faster than a guy. That’s just had to go learn it himself. I.

Don’t know. I think I agree.

I still, but you still gotta go hike there. You do gotta put you, do.

You do any,

Anything that requires that I don’t, I don’t have,

I agree.

As much probably, but.

States like Colorado,

But I feel like, I feel like, I feel like personally, I feel like the Onyx has hurt in, in the fact that the guzzler, a lot of the guzzler are on Onyx depending on the state. And then just like the winter range locations, like Colorado, we’ve learned how to hunt winter range. And then you have apps like Onyx telling you where the winter range is. And, and with conviction, I’m gonna go there second, third, and fourth season, which is the bulk of the take anyway. You know what I mean? And that, yeah, Onyx hasn’t pulled the trigger. I love how hunters just love to say that trail cameras don’t pull the trigger. I just love that. Yeah. Cause it, it’s not even so dumb. Yeah. It’s so dumb. But you know, Wyatt, I don’t mean to keep stepping on you. Jump in you’re.

Eyes. Just gonna bring up on another thing about Onyx there, like a state like Colorado know where you are kind of deal. I mean, a lot of that winter ground was off limits when the paper maps kind of thing, cuz you’re not gonna get,

We had to, you had to learn how to read a paper map. Yeah.


And we did, and then you’d say this has.

To be, it was easier not to go try to walk. Yeah. Yes. Because you don’t now on you people pull the trigger. Doesn’t have to be posted in Colorado and yeah.

So places like that though, Adam, I think laws like that and same thing with Montana, Onyx was developed in Montana. And that was because they had to deal with, there were so many.

Private laws. Yeah. And it, and it’s good to keep an illegal, but it also laws gives you the conviction. I can, I can access.

But the law created the demand for OnX.


You mean now you, I mean, you don’t want to go to Colorado without OnX. Oh.

Yeah. No, because your burden’s on you. It doesn’t have to be posted in.

Colorado. Yeah. And they’re gonna take your hunting privileges for 20 years and you’re gonna be a poacher and a felon throwing up on every social media website and, and you run those risks. So you’re forced to support PE app like ons and, and it’s the laws that make it to where like Utah, if you’re not posted properly, you can hunt it. You know, Nevada range line. Yeah. If you’re not posted properly in Nevada, you know, you can hunt it. And so, you know, that doesn’t force the need for Onyx as much. But you know, I think that, and then learning, you throw up all these course, Onyx is trying to compete with everybody else or at least create a larger barrier of entry for new products to compete with them. So they’re, they’re throwing up, they’re throwing up the guzzlers. They’re throwing up the winter ranges, summer ranges at different animal activities. They’re throwing on the, the overlays of Wyoming gear units. You can go take, take that layer off and throw up sheet.

Migration, layers, corridors. I mean, right. There’s more and more layers. So yeah, it does. You’re Josh’s thing. It does. A hunter wants to start today. You give him tools like that. Some great binos glass and tripod you’re to when we started hunter you’re.

Effective, you would go to 43 with conviction now with OnX. Whereas before Adam 43, dealing with the private, you were scared to shoot him, let a lot of gear live. Geez. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. It didn’t pull the trigger, but come on. What kind of arguments.

That? Yeah. Luckily I had a fence. If there was an offense, you really scared.

I think there’s one thing I think about social media. It, I think it gives people the, the tenacity just to stick with it. Spurs on, he spurs ’em on man. Like you’re spurred on. You’re like people are doing. And we know, think about this. There was a buck killed in 2001. I’ll never forget. It’s a four by five. It, it scored 2 46 or something net. Okay. As a five by six, like an absolute giant. And, and I think it nowadays with social media, we would know if 2001 was a good year or not. So if it’s not a good year, we all know it by social media, we don’t even have to go out and run our own cameras. We know what the world’s thinking. And we’ll either put a lot of work in on it or not. And if it’s a good year, we’re gonna work harder. We’re gonna put more resources to it. We’re gonna put more time to it. And so I think social media is training people besides that, just training people. It’s teaching.

It’s up your expectations this year, you better perform it’s off the charts. It’s gonna be good. It’s.

Gonna be good. We’re all excited. Look at this. Oh, by the way, here’s the first trail camera pictures. Here’s the first video. Here’s phone scope. Here’s my phone scope footage. It’s pretty amazing. It’s gonna be awesome. Gonna be an awesome year on the Oaks. It’s gonna be an awesome year on the Henry’s paw. God’s looking better than it was last year. You know what I mean? And I’m not gonna turn my tag back then if it’s gonna be awesome. Whereas maybe if you didn’t know all those things, you might turn your tag back. You know what I mean? Or, or you’d have people waiting for the absolute perfect year, but we know when these perfect years happen just by social media. Yeah. Just by social media. It’s teaching us or, or the, or so, and so hunted over here. I know that because of this and that and the other, and by the way, this is what he killed. Why you, you know, these guides, guides and Outfitters are scouting on social media. Oh,

You can learn a lot from it. For sure. I mean, even here at the office, you can scroll through it and say, oh look, you know, this has gotta be that PON account buck. Or this has gotta be that this guy spends a lot of time here.

He’s still alive. That buck got killed. I never knew Devin. You were hunting a buck. You found him on social media got smashed general right up here on top.

Oh yeah. And you, I, I always wondered what happened to the,

The, yeah.

He appeared go back because he died. You, he died. But without social media, you would’ve went back.


Would’ve hunt a ghost. You would’ve a.

Ghost told me about that is the guy who killed it. I don’t know who he is. I don’t know anything. Somebody else just said he died. So, you know, it’s.

Just, and then they confirmed. It’s.

A web of,

It’s a.

Web. Would’ve been, you’re reading.

The comment.

First light opening morning. He was my number.

One. And so then the next year you didn’t hunt there the next year you went down and were hunting a total different deer, putting pressure on a different area. Whereas you would’ve let that pressure. You would’ve pressured this area that didn’t have a shooter in it. Yeah. It just saves you time. And I just, it teaches.

Us all these things have, have credibility in terms of being causes of yeah. Of spurring people on or actually literally making you be more effective to, or.

Sheds like people are picking up a certain amount of big sheds in a particular area. That, and with social media, we’re not dumb everybody. Oh, this kid, he pounds this area, he does not go to Southern Wyoming. He that’s a Southern Utah buck. That’s a Southern Utah set of sheds. I mean, we’re all, you know, anyway. So there’s just a lot of that. As far as guides, I just don’t think you can limit, like how can you tell people they can’t work? I just have a hard time. Do I think that, would it be nice if we didn’t have a whole entire, you know, fam you know, family, whatever, let’s call it a, you know, 14 layers of family members or whatever. I putting pressure on an area. I guess I can see the struggle with that. I just don’t know how you curtail it. But what you can do is curtail seasons. I have a hard time with the rifles. How do you curtail it? But you can curtail a season you could do into Mexico five day, or, you know what.

I mean? Maybe too New Mexico, five days in October,

Maybe. Right. But instead we’re doing nine days and, or, or whatever. It depends on the state, Nevada, Nevada, we’re hunting rifles for how long? I mean, sometimes it’s October 5th to November 5th.

Yeah. But they got big bulls in Nevada. They’ll be able to main, they able to maintain them bulls because of I’m.

Talking tag numbers. Yeah.

Tag numbers and season.

And not hunting rifle in the rut. But, but then on like on Deere, you got an October 5th to November 5th. That’s that’s. Yeah. That’s awesome. But it’s really not keeping up with the times you should limit in my, my opinion. Wanna save deer? You should maybe limit that a little bit. I, I, I don’t know. I mean, there’s there, but there you can’t necessarily, it’s hard to limit the rifles, but you can work with the seasons Muzz loaders you can make ’em primitive, you know, in my mind trail, cam seasons, listen to the Arizona guys. Everybody says trail cameras, don’t pull the trigger, listen to ’em. Everybody knows it’s not, it’s not even worth discussing. And then, you know, I think, I think OnX gives us confidence in the field. Onyx gives us confidence in the field and to hunt areas. We otherwise may have been scared to hunt because we’d lose our hunting privileges on top of wintering deer areas, Bronson with you guys, we’re all hunting, I’m hunting new unit this year. You think I’m not gonna look at where the wintering areas are. Like, you know what I mean? Yeah. And it’s.

Easy with.

Your kids. I’m here, I’m within a wintering area. I’m gonna start glassing. Right. I mean, you know what I mean? So, all right. Did we miss?

No, not.

25 years.

Ago, but we could do a whole podcast on that. Probably. It’s not an easy one. It’s there’s, there’s some, I guess the biggest thing is there’s some things you can quantifiably say, you can’t do this and this that, you know, take your scopes off muzzle loaders or no thermal or trail cameras stop on this day. And there’s, they’re gonna have an input. Are they the greatest impact? Hard to really say that. And how do you, how do you really say the rifle cartridge scope? I guess that magnification on your scope is about.

The only thing I can think of. Think about Iowa’s straight walled cartridges, 14,000. You.

Can use players, center fires of.

Them now, hams. I mean, there’s, you know, you could, and maybe it comes to that. Maybe it does come to that at some point. I, I.

Don’t know. We’d still come out with some Wazu quickly down under.

Sides. I’ve got a shotgun coming. That’s pretty legit not gonna lie. You know,

What’s it gonna be here? I.

Don’t know. I’ll tell you,

I’m thinking out for a Turkey shoot on a lunch Turkey shoot for epic outdoors. I’d like to try,

Hey, gonna be pretty cool. Well, anyway, there’s just, there’s just, you know, and I think too, you look at forums forums where the first perform of social media there was. Yep. And you think people didn’t learn something from monster Mullis, a, some of y’all are addicted to monster Mullis. Some and I was, and I need to go back to it because there’s a lot of things being said on there that I could learn from. And, and I think part of this is, you know, part of what it’s teaching us is the people on there are teaching us that there seems to be a shift. And the majority of people think that there should be some regulations, regulations.


I think people are starting to realize that we are, they are too effective and maybe that we should have some deer live or elk live. It’s.

Not a, yeah. Not a bad thing to have some old deer now. Not have everyone need to be going, go home.

All right.

Back to a truck. What? 71? Yeah.

Let’s talk about 72 Chevys Chevy or, or, Hey, Hey. How about a Ford highway? I don’t know. I, I have some fond memories.

I just can’t wait to see Carter’s next kill pick every.

Time I’m behind one of these trucks, vinyl, every time I’m behind one of these carbureated trucks, I’m like I tell Janet, you gotta turn the air on recycle. Cuz you choked down the fumes, 14 cars behind you. You’re still choking down the fumes. And we used, Hey, we thrived in those things.

Full lead. Let gas, oh, let.

Gas lead paint, lead gas, everything had lead. Everything good had lead air. All right.

Even a good muzzle loader SL. All right, that’s true. One more. Let’s try to, this might be a two hour podcast, but we, we gotta draw a line on sand somewhere. We’re drawing it after this question.

All right. Sheridan Chamberlain. He says, love the podcasts. Kind of a two part question. I guess first question with our dear number solo in Southern Utah, why would they do a dough hunt for an area, for an area with very little private lands and no hunting danger.

I can’t wait for your answer on this, Josh, but I think this is amazing question highway.

I agree. Enterprise valley dough, hunt question mark. And in summer, August fawns out second question. Does the BLM check the range cages to monitor the feed in areas to stop livestock from being able to use public lands? Or is that a thing in the past.

First point of clarification for me? Because I don’t, I don’t look at hump boundaries, but wouldn’t enter enterprise valley. Do hunt, be a dough hunt around agricultural areas.

That’s why I was a little bit.

Confused. I would, I don’t know the exact, maybe it goes up into the foothills too. And I, I could be wrong because yes, I would agree if it’s,

But we know what the gist he’s saying. He, we.

Shouldn’t be having range, land, do hunts in Southern Utah.

We wanna eliminate the dough from, from all our winter range on the base of Cedar mountain here. For example, regardless of enterprise, I mean, yeah. You know what I mean? Like it feels like, why are we so hard on these deer right here? Because of one or two landowners, you know what I mean? That are whining a little bit. Am I wrong? Like what do you guys do? You guys don’t agree with.

Them? And I have to open up my regs to see if they even have those. Do they even have think.

They do anymore,


They’ve pretty well most dough hunts now in Utah. And there has to be a defined boundary because that’s the hard part. You can’t just make it or a imaginary boundary and expect you guys to stay.

So they’ll put a county road here and you’re gonna have some.


County road. Sometimes they’ll run up to like a forest boundary, something just to make a good boundary where there’s a fence, a road, something that’s, you know, enforceable. But most of the time I.

Think with states have been a little lethargic in changing when our deer numbers are low. And I think that’s what the frustration is. It’s a mismanagement by, by at times it feels like by apathy to make change.

Yeah. And the thing was back in like say 14, 15, 16, 17. We grew a significant amount of deer. We had a lot of deer and I, you could see it on range lands as well as just in ag lands. I mean, there was some of these places that you’d go and it used to be a biologist of say the fields in angle over their north of O Creek reservoir. I mean, there were 700 to a thousand head of deer in those fields alone, which is that a lot? No, not a lot, but yes, if those are your fields and it was significant and it wasn’t in the summer range, it was obviously, or in the summer, it was a little bit later in the year. But you go to those fields now and there’s maybe a hundred and a lot of, that’s just all just conditions due to drought. Most of the time when you see a lot of those kind of hunts, it’s because of agriculture. Yeah. You know, and issues. And when they’re not your, or feels, it’s, it’s easy to say, well, why do you worry about ’em? You know, but when it’s your livelihood you,

Well, when it’s a legal obligation for division wildlife to either compensate them in terms of money. Yeah. Or remove the problem. And, and that’s why, even though it sounds bad to shoot a dough in August when they got Fs, the goal is to reduce deer. And so consequently, if you kill the dough and the fonts die, I mean, the problem’s still being solved in the scheme of what the Hunt’s designed for it. Even though it doesn’t feel good. Right. Whatever, but.

Still makes you see red.

Oh, it does. It.

Sucks. It doesn’t make you feel great. And, and I, I hope as we hopefully come out of this drought in the coming years and start doing better, they don’t creep back. And I think, yeah, I think those days, it just felt like they’re gone in Utah. Yeah. I mean, I, and when we were kids, they had ’em down at heart point beef basin. Yeah. I mean, we had, and I know there are a lot more deer back then, and now that Sage brush is dead. Now it’s elk wind range down there pretty much. But yeah, we don’t, we don’t need range.

I’m not a fan of shooting almost.

Anywhere. I’m not a fan of shooting any toes. I struggle with the land owners that get compensated with land tags, still complain about numbers. And I just, I struggle with some of that. Yeah. But then I also struggle with wild horses and, you know, I don’t think that, you know, some of these guys that are running cattle on public lands are being, you know, forced to change their ways a little bit, maybe reduce their numbers or the timing of when they pull off. And, and nobody does anything about horses. Yeah. I, and you know, I struggle with a lot that there’s some of these things that don’t have a good answer if it feels like,

Yeah. And you look at this stuff, like out here, along this para front summit, all out through there, you know, when we had those significant deer numbers, when you go in and throw in a freeway and block off, I mean, these, those deer from the mountain, which a lot of those deer now we’ve learned, they come from all over the place, you know, the top of the Zion, the top of GUI lake. And they used to be able to go clear out to the iron mines if they wanted to go out that far. And so they could really scatter out. Now they come down and hit the freeway hit and they’re blocked right there. Yeah. And they’re done. And so when you have that many deer on that, just a little strip right there, and now it’s a nicer, they’ve done a lot of projects and everything like that.

But we used to have to go out there in relation to, I guess, the BLM little cages that they have, we used to have to go do winter range monitoring and you’d, there would be, there’s designated plots. I mean, there’s stakes in the ground. You’d go out and you’d measure and you’d do circles and you’d count pellet counts and things like that. You’d count leader growth on Sage where all that kind of stuff and, and DWR biologists do that as far as BLM. I’m not sure what they do. A lot of that’s strictly just, they say a cow, can’t go on the range unless their grass height is X high. And when it gets down below that for stub stuff, they pull ’em off. And,

But yeah, they also have the Divi, most people don’t know, the division has a range crew. They do, they do, which has their own line vegetation. Transex all throughout, mostly winter ranges or Sage step type habitats. There are some in, in summer ranges, but I believe they do it every five years because there’s five regions throughout the state. But when Oza biologist, they used to come to Southern region every five years. So they do the trend date every five years basically go out to the exact same places. Do photos do, literally they’ll put a tape measure out for the a hundred yards or whatever. Yeah. And they’ll count. Yeah. They’ll count pellets within that. But they’re also every place that the tape measure intersects browse or feet of any kind, they mark the presence of species and deer utilization of it or whatever. And it’s very, in very, in detail, it is the little basket sheet run across that we all see from time to time that has grass coming out of the, you know, as long as the cage is staked to the ground and the cows don’t tip it over. Cause if it’s just sitting on the ground, it gets tipped over and the cows graze it off and it means nothing. But the division ones are very good and they actually publish that data. And, and that’s, they’re.

Still using them your point. They do. They do. Look, I see these little triangulated cages, little rabbits,

Those ones specifically your BLM ones, those, these are other ones are not.

Disclosures. You think they’re still being used used?

I, I can’t say that that.

They are, but I, I drive by ’em and there’s grass coming out the tops. And then it’s kinda interesting to look at it. Right. But I mean, is that formula, the.

Old member used to have old closures that they would build and they’d have tall ones that nothing could get into. And then the ones right next to it would be just cattle, Kent in. And so you couldn’t get in. So you could see what impact.

Deer and.

Rabbits deer are having. And rabbits are having maybe jumping inside here and eating brush and inside here where nothing can get in, but not, don’t see as many of those built, they build them more for Aspen and stuff like that. Yeah. Now than they do Sage brush, but the division does a good job about making permanent range transects throughout the state. And usually that’s where a lot of their, you know, input comes in terms of population objective for deer and elk. Yeah. You know, if they know that, Hey, our trends are all going down and there’s places they’ll either have to pres you know, prescribe a bunch of habitat treatments, which isn’t a fast fix. We all know that by the time you run a project proposal through government agency, get the funding and do it well,


Takes time and then happens.

One burn does more habitat and we could ever even afford to do. Yeah. Yes. You know what I mean? And then you gotta have the animals to utilize that burn or habitat project. Yeah. And so I’m with Sheridan. I think we all are. I, I, I like the answers, but I think we all are. If there, if there’s a dough hunt and you’re under objective, that’s frustrating. No question about it. Same thing, cow, elk hunt, whatever it may be. So you’re under objective.

Don’t do.

It. We’re not a real fan of, of killing the mamas. All right. Well, can we call it a day? Oh yeah. Can we call it a, you guys walled out. Let’s give away one of these pair of diamond backs to somebody that reposts this podcast on a storyline and tags. Epic hunts. What do you guys say? Sound good? What,

What deadline you wanna give Josh? Yeah, let’s do it.

Let’s do something in the next today.


Do something by Thursday. It’s.

Probably next. Monday’s.

Probably won’t. Yeah, we didn’t have to be next week. Cuz we, this probably won’t get out.

What do you mean? Yeah,


Podcast. But it comes out tonight. Okay.

We had a couple of you guys drop some.

Okay. Oh, okay. Oh, okay. Okay guys. All right. So let’s do something when you hear there next. Yeah. Should we do it on a, a Tuesday since that’s probably when everybody will come, come in to work on time.

Tuesday sounds great.

Tuesday, is there any concerts this weekend while Hey, I had to.

Make a live choice. Stamped rodeo beat by Utah. Is that this weekend or this.

Weekend? Are you going? I’m going when he gets kids Bronson, he ain’t gonna be doing, he’s.

Not gonna have anything. He.

Ain’t gonna be doing all this. Well,

No, he’ll be doing more. It’ll just be, you know, tee-ball and parades and dance rec.

Recitals. Wait to see why it, this.

Is the ne fight. T-ball like, you gotta go back at least once a year.

I thought it was always over the 25.

He’s kind of a big deal in fight. I don’t know about that.

Are you the grand marsh.

Back is worth the fight. Why? It’s.

In the parade? Like the.

Grand marsh.

Is he doing the hand wave?

Yeah. I’ve got the hand wave down. Why?

We’ve got you a seat in the, in the old Buick?

No, the Phil just says.

Father has.

Returned. I got family and cousins that come into town. It’s good to go see him. Friends high.

School. Is everybody related to everybody?

No, it’s not that small.

Bigger Montelo.

Yeah. A lot’s bigger than Monte.

Monte are Bron.

No, no, but no.

Very closely. But.

You had to go to the res to date? No, maybe,

Maybe Blanding but 20, 20.

Miles or so. I’m with you. I’m with you. All right. So let’s give a pair of diamond backs. If you repost this podcast in your storyline, you can tag epic hunts, add epic hunts. Don’t do hashtag epic hunts. Cause we don’t see that. Yeah, we can easily miss it. Do the actual at symbol at epic hunts on, on Instagram or Facebook, epic underscore hunts. And we’ll be entered to win by.

Tuesday the 19th.

Okay. Sounds good. By Tuesday the 19th. All right, everybody. We are by the way, call taking Fridays off to scout. Everybody else in the world should be taking Fridays off to scout. Right?

I agree.

All right. So anyway, don’t be calling us on Fridays or don’t get mad at us. If you do call us on Friday and don’t get us,

We’ll be here at Monday to take your call, but only afternoon.

Whyt wants. Whyt wants out. I got here at nine 30. Whyt wants office hours to be noon on Monday through Thursday. Come on.

It’s hard to get a 40 in from noon and Monday.

Bankers, bankers put in more hours than.

That. We can do it here at this office as early as we come in,

We can.

Do it. All right. Okay. All right, everybody have a great week.

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