EP 110: Our Personal Methods in Applying and Drawing Tags. In this episode Jason, Adam, and Jeff, talk about their personal application strategies. Species by Species they break down how they go about applying in each state. If you want to draw more tags and play the game more efficiently this one is for you.

Disclaimer: this text was produced through an automated transcription service and likely contains errors. Please listen to the original audio for exact content.

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When you only have two weeks a year, you want to be in the field. Those two weeks,

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The guy that wants to get aggressive, very low tag numbers,

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As the random odds have gotten worse and the price has gone up.

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Anything to do with Western big games.

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To the Epic Outdoors Podcast, powered by Under Armour.

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Hey everybody. Jason Carter here. Adam Bronson. Jeff John with the Epic Outdoors Team and the Epic Outdoors Podcast coming at you from southern Utah. Snowy Southern Utah, by the way. We are super excited about that. Probably the most excitement we’ve felt in the last two months. Well, a month, right?

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Yeah. Since something season’s over. Yeah. Looking good. Compared to last winter, no question. Things are feeling better. Southern Utah, Northern Arizona, nor all New Mexico. Mexico, Mexico, Eastern Arizona. Bring it. That’s right.

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Bring it. We’re super excited about all this moisture. And anyway, it’s, it’s a nice refreshing excitement going on around here compared to last year. Last year was just a tough hunting season all the way around. It was tough weather in building antlers, and it was tough during the season, so we just never did get a break. All right. Before we start off, let’s thank Under Armour for sponsoring this podcast. And we appreciate them and their support and let’s get this thing started. Basically, this is a sequel to last week, so to speak, where we kind of brushed over some theory behind applying and applying here in the west. And it is very complex. There’s a, there’s many different facets to it. A lot of different states, species point systems, everything’s different within each state. And so there’s a lot that goes into it. And we get all excited and start talking fast and crush the place.

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And we wanna maybe slow it down just a minute. We’ll talk about individual species and what we do personally, and we, each of us here at the table do it a little bit different depending, you know, o obviously on our plans, what we’ve got going, our backup plans, our kids, our wives, and a hundred other different things that are going through our heads. And so we each have different plans and that may help you on developing your plan. Just give you a few ideas. So that was kind of our theory and talking about our application strategies and going from there. And we, Adam and I, and Jeff as well, but Adam and I, you know, in large part, are talking to, I don’t know, maybe 20 people a day, 30 people a day, developing strategies and helping them. Of course, we’re doing that for our licensed application service clients and getting a basic plan for this year and, and applying them. Likewise.

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That’s right. It’s first of the year. So last year or last week was more of a Phil philosophical discussion about got points, use them, don’t wait, get after it. Point guards real or point creeps reel. Today we’re gonna talk about what we actually do more so, and I guess we’re gonna talk about it. You know, one thing to emphasize is every year we can have a different plan based on winter moisture, what we think the season dates are gonna be like, things like that. Case in point, last year I knew I was gonna hunt doll sheep in Alaska in August. I pretty much had to avoid archery deer hunts of any big significance. I just couldn’t apply for him. Jeff, you know, you were gonna go up there and hunt caribou. Similarly, you’re late, you’re late August, and even maybe early September you just, you’re, you know, done archery deer was tough for me last year. This year that’s not the case. So year to year things change. You get something planned. Maybe it’s a family wedding, maybe it’s a kid going to school, maybe you’re, you know, whatever. But maybe it’s your anniversary that you were not smart enough to not get married September 1st, 15th or something like that. Ouch. That was

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Well, I’m just saying, I talked to a guy the other day. He says his, his wife’s birthday’s like September 14th and his anniversary is September 15th. And I’m like, he’s said, I just thought it’d be nice to have ’em all to one and then,

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And get it over with. And he,

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Is true if you’re already, if you’re already committed to one, you might as well just

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Or choose a different wife. Okay. We need different birthdays. So

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Anyway, it should

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Be on the list. Prerequisite

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It, it came up in top birthday when talking about Arizona Elk, and he can draw this year. And I said, well, it is a 14 day season. Chalk up the first weekend of the hunt, stay home birthday anniversary, and then crush to Arizona for the last 10 days. And he is like, great plan, blah, blah, blah. But it just got me thinking, wow, if you get married in middle of September or October, it’s not a perfect time to get married. So I still,

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I can’t figure out Jason. I got married the 10th of August and I think back and I’m like, how did Jason show up for that

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Show up for what

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Sacrificed? You’re throwing me under, under the bus.

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No, no, no. I’m saying I did. I’m like, you sacrificed the opener of That’s

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A good point.

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Data archery.

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Well, archery would be August 10th. And so I said I feel

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Yeah, well, I just say thanks and let’s move on. So yeah, mindset for every year changes and that’s what we, I guess just may basically wanted to let you know, we make our plans annually based on things like that. So maybe before we get into the deer, elk, you know, antelope, which I know Jason’s excited to get into. How about moose, Adam? No,

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We’ll get there. We’ll get there.

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Or, and by each state, let’s talk about, you know, maybe let’s just say what we each think we, you know, we, we take what we want to have as kind of a priority, which Jason is always gonna be mule deer for sure. He’s gonna have, and

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Big Bulls, you know, bucks and

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Bulls. Yeah. You know, anything big. Of course. Yeah. She, but you’re gonna work around, you know, maybe a draw tag in Colorado or a landowner tag there and maybe a land or tag in Nevada. That’s your starting place. I guess we all have a starting place for the, and

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And I was talking to a guy yesterday and I know you were too, Adam, but I, especially this one, one particular individual, he is like, dude, I’ve got my 2019, I’m, I wanna draw. I take a sheep tag no matter what. So apply me for me for better odds. Basically, you know, a tag that you guys would be willing to take yourselves a, a tag that has better odds, but it’ll still have the chance of producing a good ram points only for deer elk, unless it’s wazoo crazy awesome. And, but overall, I’ve got things going and we have that, and that changes from year to year to year. Every single year is a new year. And of course we keep track of that for our guys and they’ll come up with, you know, new dates that they’re, you know, that we’re to avoid applying for.

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And we have that too. But having said that, we do have backup plans. And the backup plans aren’t always made on the very end tail, end of not drawn tags. I’m, we’ve got backup plans on the front end, you know, I’m doing, I’ll be doing a general here in Utah, just guaranteed I’m going to have a general tag here in Utah. And I’ve only used it twice, but that those particular years were awesome. Killed a couple of great bucks. And so, you know, those are back what I consider a backup plan. Although with all this snow it may become, become a front runner type plan, might

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Be a pri front burner primary plan. Yeah.

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And same with you. And, and I know you do the same thing, a landowner tag in Nevada. It’s snowing a lot over there. I I’m gonna be in Nevada this year, last year I, you know, shouldn’t have been in Nevada. It was hard. It was, it made good outfitters look marginal and it wasn’t because they’re bad outfitters. They’re awesome. It was poor out grow, it was tough year and it was tough weather during the season. So anyway, backup plans are happening now. They’re gonna happen on the end. Some things. There’s over the counter tags that are available on the end. There’s always something to do. Arizona, archery, deer, whatever, go hunt. Who deer interrupt, Idaho deer, things like

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That. Idaho deer’s kind of one of those backup plans that can happen in June or July. There’s still general season deer tags available then. But keeping, you know, keeping with your theme of backup plans somehow, sometimes gotta start early. Look at some of the Diamond Creek zones and things like that. You better start in December if you want to have that as your backup plan. ’cause they sell out. You can’t have that as a backup plan later on. But the deer in Idaho, you can elk and, and Idaho and other places or elk in Colorado you can. But for me, yeah, the general deer, I, I, you know, last year I didn’t hunt one day for me on the general deer. Right. But I, but I had a tag. We’re fortunate I guess to have lifetime licenses here in Utah. So it’s a little bit of a, you know, at the start of the year you pick archery or muzzle or rifle in the unit that we want and you try to guess where you’re gonna have the most time. And, and I guessed wrong, last year I had some kids draw tags and some other things that I didn’t have any days to hunt for me on the muzzle, which I don’t want to have a good, that’s

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A casualty that can happen. That’s the casualty of doing business. Yeah. You’re gonna eat some tags and a lot of people are worried about eating tags. Honestly, if you’re eating a tag or two and meaning not that you hunted and ate the tag, meaning I ate it. I couldn’t even go. That’s the casualty of doing business. It’s, it’s, it’s the price you pay to make sure you have enough tags in your pocket that you have an decent season. Yeah.

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The ratio of people we talked to here at the end of application season of, Hey, I didn’t draw anything or not enough versus Hey, I drove too many tags. I don’t know what to do with them all is hundreds to one. Yeah. You know what I mean? It’s so rare. So don’t be afraid to apply for tags. There are some states with exit strategies, we can maybe get into that at the end with, you know, some of the states that allow you a turn back tags, get your points back, maybe even your money back. So there’s a few states that been me have mechanisms in place to allow you to do things like that. But first off, yeah, we start with what we wanna build around general season deer in Utah is definitely one of those. You know, I know I’ve said this feels like a million times, and I hope I don’t have to say it much longer, but for me, I’m, I’m on the bubble on my desert sheep tag in Utah. I have to plan on getting that. It’s a big enough deal to me that I have to plan around that.

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And, you know, having you say, say that it, it’s a you are that particular tag. I’m planning around that tag too. Yeah. I mean, ’cause we’re gonna go on that. And same thing with like, you, you might have a deer hunt coming up in Arizona. Yeah. Those are things that I’m planning around too. And so Adam and I, Jeff, we’re looking at the states, we’re looking at our odds, our points of drawing compared to the point levels we have and saying which tag are you gonna get? And yeah. If something happens and, and I can’t go, I, I get it, you know, but at the same time,

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Extent impossible. Yeah. Just,

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And at the same time, we’re careful on the seasons we’re choosing such as Colorado landowner, deer or, or just Colorado leftover tags or, or, or whatever turnback tags that we’re gonna get. Things like that come into our plan. So basically outline your schedule, figure out your year. Say, okay, this is what I’ve got. I’ve got nothing. Awesome. We got a clean slate to work with. Or No, I’m going caribou Alaska from this date to this date. Great, no problem. We’re gonna avoid everything in that timeframe. And with that, how many hunts do you want to do in a year? Well, maybe you can only do that one. Maybe you need to get points for everything else. Maybe not. Maybe you can afford one or two other ones forward. Meaning not just money, but time or relationship with your wife or whatever. But figure out what you can do and then say, how am I gonna get those? Where’s my goals and how am I gonna get there? Yeah. They’re

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Calling up saying, man, I’ve got two weeks a year. That is it. And so you’re planning your whole application strategy around and, and, and when you only have two weeks a year, you want to be in the field those two weeks. I mean, there you’re going those two weeks. Yeah. It’s just making sure you get the tag day, you know, the, the tagline up and everything to make that happen in those two weeks. Yeah. And a lot of guys are like that. You know, you’re stuck with one or two or three weeks of vacation a year and you’re planning them on using that on Yeah. Before your hunting season. You better have two or three options lined up there that, that coordinate with those dates. With a fail safe, you know, this can happen, this tag can, you can’t get this tags no matter what in that week.

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I had a guy, I had a guy yesterday, and it just, it just falls into what we’re talking about. Another option, this is for him, it wasn’t for me, but he’s like, Hey, I’ve got a point for Deere in Wyoming. I’ve, and I wanna do something possibly in Montana. I’ve got a friend that has a ranch. Maybe I’d apply for the Deer General. And you know, and so by the time we got done, those were his backup.

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I’m coordinating a lot of little things. Yeah.

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A lot of little things. So we’re like, okay, well let’s get you a point in Montana. If you want to go to a general, some general region, which his particular region was an easy draw, you know, then great, you’ve got that. And we could get you a leftover tag in Colorado if you want. I mean, tell me what you really want. ’cause you got options everywhere. And by the end of the conversation he’s like, crap, I

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Can’t do it all.

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I can’t do it all. And and we haven’t even started to gain points or, or allow for an awesome wazoo random tag

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To hit. Yeah, yeah.

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You know, which happens once

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In a while. So yeah, you gotta start with, you know, the, the top point tiers in the states that give a percentage of them, like Utah, Arizona, Wyoming, Colorado, the predictable states. Those are the ones you kind of gotta start with in our opinion. Block ’em off. We talk

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About forced draws. Those are the forced draw. Adam just talked about the states that we call where you can force a draw compared to the points you have. You

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Can analyze those. Yeah. When I say I’m on the bubble, you know, I, I could draw this year. It could be next year. You’ve got people shifting units on sheep units. You’ve got such low tag numbers that three to four people bouncing around with my points, whatever from year to years is all it takes to edge out cons. You know, I’ve got another family member that’s probably gonna draw an elk tag this year in Utah, probably gonna look at the muzzle loader. We’ve seen the long season dates. We love those 12 days deeper into September. In our opinion. I think that no, the

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Just been happening

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In the muzz, dark moon’s happening. So I’ve got a plan on that muzzle loader elk this year on a big bull unit. ’cause I wanna be there. That’s another thing. So those are, you know, last part of September is, is done for me. It’s really done with my, my desert sheep and that potential hunt. Even though the desert sheep’s a couple months long, I, I want to have enough time right outta the gate. If I have a big ram found, I wanna, I wanna kill him right outta the gate and then move on through my schedule. If I don’t kill the ram, I’m after, you know, I’ve got October to do that. But that’s how we start. I don’t know, I’m probably, I don’t know. I, I don’t wanna steal them mic, but I feel like I’m gonna do those two. I’m gonna burn my Colorado points and my Arizona deer points. I’m an optimist and that’s a big year for me

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Right there. So are we talking about deer? Let’s talk about deer. Jeff. Yes sir. What are your deer goals and how are you gonna get there?

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Instantly, in my head I’m thinking deer, I’m thinking Colorado deer. Right? That’s, that’s where I have to go first. Mentally, once again. Oh, I got handcuffs on in in November. I’ve got, and and it ties back into the overall strategy. Yeah. We got, I’m worried about sheep punts. You know, your dad worried about my dad drawing a sheep tagging last year. He drew, we did not find a ram we wanted to kill. Like, and we, we, we decided if there wasn’t a ran, we were gonna kill opening day like a target

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Brand and kind of an odd unit. I will say that this isn’t a, this is a volatile unit. We’ll put it that way. A little bit volatile. Yeah. You know, a lot of ops have gone on there and so the h classes is not there. Right. And so that’s part of the reason you don’t normally turn in sheep tags. And he had max points and so there’s reasons for that. Yeah. It was a little bit go out on a limb, you might find a giant ram that’s Yes. Stay alive, somehow kill.

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We can kill it in November 1st and

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We can force a draw. Yeah.

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And so, so anyway, we ended up turning that back. So once again, we’re in the running, but we’re gonna drop down to a different unit. It’s gonna be between 30 and 50% draw odds right in there. But you gotta plan on it. So we gotta kind of plan on that. Now, I also am gonna be applying my wife in a unit for elk that she’s gonna have about the same draw odds.

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Whoa. That, that’s the first, first time I’ve heard this. Is that same with you Jeff? I, I

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Talked about it a little bit with

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Him. I thought we was talking about mule deer and he’s talking about 14 other species. But so that’s, that’s what we’re talking about. It’s is so complicated. There’s so many things, so many factors into why I can’t go kill a big mule Jeff. Right. I don’t want to hear that. I want to hear, how are you going to kill a big

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Billy? I’m gonna take Jason Carter with me into Idaho and I’m gonna tell him, find me a beer.

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I’m gonna kill kill another 30 insured Jeff. It’s not gonna happen again. And by the way, that, that unit’s dead. The gifts are done.

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That unit’s dead.

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So, so, so goes back to, okay, I’m not gonna have a, I’m not gonna have a Colorado tag

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Again this year. So this isn’t, is this not a dear, dear year for you?

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This is not other than other than, so I know. So I think I’m gonna rely more on my general hunting for the deer once again. What season? I’m gonna do Idaho General and then I’m also working on the dedicated hunter Utah for Utah. So, so I’ll probably do that. Those two will be basically, unfortunately my deer hunting. Okay.

00:16:31:22 –> 00:16:32:02

00:16:32:02 –> 00:16:38:02
Like archery deer is, I’m kind of banking on archery deer this year, which I don’t usually, I’m not an archery hunter. No,

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You need to start shooting right now. Yeah.

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I need to start shooting again. So

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Acbo aka AKA huh. Yeah.

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And I’ll make sure I Instagram it and make sure everybody knows that I’m doing it right.

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You need to. ’cause if you don’t Instagram it, it didn’t happen. It didn’t

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Happen. No drawback. So, so yeah. So that’s, that’s where I’m going with dear general dear.

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I love giving you kids.

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I just don’t, I don’t know anything.

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I feel bad for you ’cause I’m, I’m ready to talk about deer and I’ve got some other plans.

00:17:05:13 –> 00:17:06:16
I got some plans. Yeah. You guys, other plans.

00:17:06:24 –> 00:17:07:13
I’ve got some plans

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That, that’s just where I’m at, unfortunately. It’s

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Where I’m at. Dang it. Well, all right, we’ll have to take the deer off your hands this year.

00:17:13:12 –> 00:17:14:20
Yeah, go ahead. Do that.

00:17:14:21 –> 00:17:19:16
Kill, kill it tonight. I I hope to have four tags and Oh

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Yeah. You have a lot of time for that.

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I’m gonna make it. I’ve said it before here. Here.

00:17:25:01 –> 00:17:30:07
Yeah, it sounds like, sounds like your schedule’s bringing up every day we hear you talking about buying another tag somewhere.

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Not me buying a tag. Well, yeah,

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Right. Like clients

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For sure.

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Client maybe. Yeah. But clients are

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They got on the back burner this year? That’s what I’m hearing.

00:17:37:23 –> 00:17:38:08
No, they’re not.

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At the end of the year, let’s do a podcast and we’ll stack up the tags that Adam was not able to go hunting on.

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The good thing about guiding sheep hunters is they start in August sometimes or September and they go to the end of the year. That’s true. So it’s a three to four month season.

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That’s the good thing.

00:17:55:25 –> 00:17:56:04

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That never quits.

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It’s the gift

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I can work in, send to 15 hunters over four months. Okay. Instead of, hey, everybody wants to kill a big deer in the nine day rifle hunt, nine day muzz loader. And those are done and gone and that sucked. And I look like a bad outfitter ’cause I talked him into hunting, hunting, this, that and the other. But so most of those,

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So what people, people want the real version of plans. The real plans.

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I’m gonna hunt Nevada deer this year. Oh,

00:18:26:24 –> 00:18:27:02

00:18:27:17 –> 00:18:27:28

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When the announcement is made, put the tracking devices on his truck.

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Right now I’ve got a 2 31 deer tag, if you must know Jason. But you do know because you were help me involved. Yeah, that’s right.

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So I do

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Have one of those held, you know, in case I don’t have anything and I been wanting to do it for a bit, I’m gonna make the time to do it. The flexibility of seasons in Nevada is a big deal.

00:18:48:22 –> 00:18:53:14
And I think the nice thing about Lanham test, similar to the dedicated hunter program in Utah, is you can hunt all seasons,

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Gives you options and, and until you

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00:18:55:16 –> 00:19:25:05
And it’s close to us here, I’ll have the Utah general here if, if I have time. Yeah. If I need to make more of it, I can. If it gets edged out like it normally does, it gets edged out. Like I said a minute ago, I, I’m on the bubble in Arizona Dear two, I have to kind of plan on that. That’s a late OC October or November depending on how I apply. Yeah. And so I have to plan on that one. And you guys all you’ll will want to come on that just like, you know, we all want to come on Jason’s sheep punt, even though that was a random drop. Some

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Tags, you just don’t, don’t wanna miss

00:19:26:19 –> 00:20:13:22
You, you don’t wanna miss. And then Colorado, you know, I’ve been going either on turnback tags or landowner tags for the last quite a few years. I’m up to 10 or 11 points. Again, I swore I would never get that many points. But last time, I, I, I generally use my points in Colorado on something that I can’t usually find a landlord tag for that I think is almost impossible. Either a low low tag new unit or we have no connections in something. Like I’d rather, I’d rather buy a landlord tag for 1500 to $3,000 than burn my points on it. That’s just the way I operate. Just because, and if it’s good and I can always go back, then I always have that. And that’s kind of what I’ve been doing. And this year I’m gonna try to use them on a, probably a fourth season somewhere that I, that I can avoid early November for Rocky Mountain Baker. So you’re gonna try

00:20:13:22 –> 00:20:13:26
To draw,

00:20:14:15 –> 00:20:16:12
Oh, I said it right here. Yeah, we

00:20:16:12 –> 00:20:22:20
Need Chris. We need one of those like little highlight, like, like breaking news. One of those things.

00:20:22:29 –> 00:20:35:12
Yeah. But yeah, but that’s it. I’ve laid out four potential deer tags for me and that’s, that’s where I’m going. Jason, time is now yours to see. So what’d you like? I know Nevada, you’ve got,

00:20:35:20 –> 00:21:03:23
So yeah, I’ve got a, a landowner tag or two in Nevada reserved. Right. And so I’ll be doing that for sure. The excitement of all the moisture and bucks that, you know, the one thing these droughts, and, and I guess I’m just gonna go off on a tangent for a quick second, 10 seconds or less, as my buddy always says is in, in some of these drought years, there’s not only do they gain a year of age, but there’s bucks that are passed over because they were, they turned to crap. Yeah. So to

00:21:03:23 –> 00:21:04:25
75 or 81

00:21:04:25 –> 00:21:04:29

00:21:05:19 –> 00:21:06:18
We didn’t a team of hundreds

00:21:06:22 –> 00:21:48:07
After them. Right. So the teams left them alone. Right. Let’s, let’s call it Yeah. And so then when they come back, you’ve got not only an extra year, you got, it’s two years later on a good moisture year and all of a sudden that’s when you have these blow ups. Oh my gosh. Henry’s is off the charts this year. Yeah, it was. It was moisture you turned 1 2 30. It was, and moisture. It’s, whereas maybe some of these bucks would normally get killed at 1 90, 1 95 ish when they turned four or four, you know, four and a half year old. That was awesome. Genetics. They might’ve got smoked if it’s four and a half bad moisture, he’s down now he’s five and a half on good moisture. You know what I’m saying? He’s too hot.

00:21:48:09 –> 00:21:48:26
Huge. Yeah.

00:21:49:02 –> 00:21:58:04
And that’s what we’re gonna blow up. Blow up. We’re gonna see that in Nevada, Utah. Arizona maybe parts of Colorado. But really these New Mexico go

00:21:58:10 –> 00:21:58:23
Northern New Mexico.

00:21:59:10 –> 00:22:02:12
You’re gonna see it. I, I swear it. You’re gonna see it. I’m saying

00:22:02:12 –> 00:22:06:26
It. New Mexico Outfitters are doing back flips right now with all the moisture they’re getting. I think we’re thinking about bulls.

00:22:06:27 –> 00:22:27:16
Yeah, no, and we looked and Adam and I especially, we wanted to put a drought, kind of a drought monitor in this last magazine and just kind of cover it. The drought monitors show it’s, we’re in a terrible drought still. And me, we might be in inches of moisture, but it’s the timeliness and it’s spread out. Started in October. Really Probably started in September. I mean nothing hit the cameras in Arizona for

00:22:27:16 –> 00:22:37:01
A long time. Yeah. We had wet October last year. Wet, wet, wet. They’re crazy. And that had translate to no feed, no antler growth until winter feed and deer conditioning going

00:22:37:02 –> 00:22:37:25
Into the next year

00:22:39:07 –> 00:23:28:25
Hasn’t quit. And it hasnt quit. It’s been a little bit, little bit, little bit, little bit. It just hasn’t quit. And so anyway, so having said that, very aggressive this year, be doing the Utah general do Colorado every year, no matter what, I’ll end up with a leftover tag. You know, if I have to turn that back in and get a refund, I can, I can still gain a point with my first choice as can everybody and, and then we could do a landowner or a turnback tag or even draw my first choice and then that may happen as well. So I’m not sure, don’t have set plans. And I’m not trying to be evasive. Adam and I, especially Adam and I, Jeff too. I mean we get going on a tangent and all of a sudden we’ll make a plan on a Tuesday morning. We had no idea what our plan was Monday night. And so we just with a little bit of research in riding and we get off on a tangent pretty soon. We’re hunting 78 inch antelope and far Jason, the far western edge

00:23:28:27 –> 00:23:30:18
That Jason’s got an orx stack in Mexico

00:23:31:10 –> 00:23:34:29
And they, I’d take one, probably not a broken horn, but I’d take something. But

00:23:35:05 –> 00:23:43:18
So yeah, that’s that’s a good point. We can get fired up but, but really what we’re saying here is, is definitely driving our plans for the next 30 days. How about that? Yeah,

00:23:43:22 –> 00:24:21:07
Definitely we’ll be, there’s some new things in New Mexico we’ll be definitely applying there. Who knows what we’ll end up with landowner tags for ranch only. Not planning anything like that. It’ll be drawn New Mexico, something in Colorado for sure. Utah, Nevada. Those are my set plans. Idaho, I love Idaho. Yeah. That winter of, of 1617 crush the place. I thought this last year would be good. Even though it got crushed, it wasn’t, I was up there inside. It was pretty tough. Most everybody struggled. And so having said that, we’ll be applying in Idaho, love the general up there. Could be awesome. Never have killed anything big on the general, but we know. Yeah. It’s got that potential.

00:24:21:11 –> 00:25:14:26
It does. And we, if you use it as a backup plan, when you treat something as a backup plan when you’re, and then you’re busy, it doesn’t quite get your full attention like one of these other tags, whether it be a Colorado or, and it’s unfortunate. It’s just kinda like our Utah general. We maybe take it from granted too much. It’s always there. And it’s first thing to go and Idaho General, even though after you buy the tag, it’s kinda the first thing to go sometimes. Or you go up there for a three day weekend and take what you get. But kind of like Wyoming too, to throw Wyoming deer into the mix. You know, we, we all, we’ll evaluate that. Usually the end of May, we usually just table that, see what draws. We might find out anything in Utah, anything in Nevada, maybe Colorado. But Colorado with their new draw system last year didn’t get the results out by the end of May. So you couldn’t fully make that decision. But table Wyoming deer for the end of May to fit to for a gap filler that that’s

00:25:14:29 –> 00:25:27:08
Well and like you did Adam, like there was one of those, it was an opportunity you had where you chose dates that didn’t conflict with everything and you kind of went for quote a Hail Mary. Yeah. And you ended up drawing that, you know, 1 28. Yeah,

00:25:27:10 –> 00:26:07:25
I did that. It was a year that I’m like, I just don’t want these points. I hate doing points only there’s nothing getting better that may. I said, well I’ve got time in November, I’ll put 1 28 down. And I drew it, it still was like 10% with max points. So I drew it and went up there, got got done with it. Now I’m back building, you know, low points. I’ll go to a general region or something like that. Probably not this year as I’ve, I’ve laid out, I plan on having another deer tags this year, so I’ll probably just do points in Wyoming. Yeah. But it’s a point, it’s a state we definitely build points in and things like that when you come to other states. The, the West coast, Washington, Oregon, California, we don’t, we don’t build any of our plans around those states. No. So I don’t know if we need to bring them up again on this podcast. No, we don’t. But we’ll just simplify this

00:26:07:25 –> 00:27:13:13
Podcast is what we want to talk about. Okay. And so anyway, having said that, with Wyoming, I do gain points in Wyoming. It’s not, it feels like it’s been in a 20 year slump, although they’ve had some ups and downs in there. It’s just not managed. They don’t, the residents just, they don’t want to give up their over the counter tags generally speaking. There are some units that obviously they can’t hunt over the counter. And so they might have, you think that they’re managing for quality, but it’s still, they still don’t have that mind mindset and that’s fine. It’s their state and they get to do that. And I get to choose obviously as a non-resident if we’re gonna apply and gain points. And I do, do I have a plan for those points? No, no neither. But if something changes down the road, maybe we learn of a ranch somewhere in some obscure area or whatever that has a few giants. At least I’m prepared to make sure I get the tag and force that draw. As Adam said, that’s one of the states. You could force the draw, you can look at odds and know one, you can get drawn. And so I gain points there, you know, for 40 bucks a year. Basically you can gain points and, and, and have a backup strategy. Kansas is something I was brought up the other day and Adam and I talk about, talk to guys every day about that

00:27:13:24 –> 00:27:14:17
Pain in the butt,

00:27:14:19 –> 00:27:26:01
Pain in the butt, no points with the Mulder stamp. You’re sitting there with a white tail tag that’s non-refundable, mid $400 and, and, and for the app, basically it’s an application fee if you’re strictly a mul deer hunter.

00:27:26:08 –> 00:27:26:17

00:27:27:21 –> 00:27:35:00
Yeah. No point applying to the mul deer. So it’s completely random. Every single time you draw the whitetail tag, then you’re completely random on the mul deer

00:27:35:00 –> 00:27:41:08
And you’re dealing with private and you’re dealing with milo fields and all kind. They’re just, it’s just not my thing. There’s a few giants. It’s a lot outta your

00:27:41:08 –> 00:27:47:01
Control. No question. Yeah. It’s just if you could just apply for Mule Deer out there, it would be a different story. We, it’d be a lot more elevated

00:27:47:01 –> 00:27:47:25
Than and build those points for Mule.

00:27:47:25 –> 00:28:02:25
Yeah. Build points for Mulder or get the right landowner situation and pick the year you want to go burn your four or five points. I’m going this year. Set something up, pay a trespass. Or even if you have to do a guided, ’cause it is Kansas, 97% private, you’re gonna have to pay to hunt unless you got a connection. So

00:28:02:25 –> 00:28:35:18
We’ve kind of talked about our three strategies on Mulder, but I kind of want to just cover a quick, some of our background thoughts on the states. Yeah. Within Mulder, so New Mexico, some of ’em, my thoughts were is they’ve got two new hunts. They’ve got a muzzle or an archery opening up for five B never has happened. Okay. Not been available. And it’s largely forest. And so, you know, public line, you can go, the guy that wants to get aggressive, very low tag numbers not gonna hurt the deer whatsoever. I don’t know what the success rate will be, but I don’t expect it’ll be super high. It’s resident deer, great

00:28:35:18 –> 00:28:46:04
Genetics, Northern New Mexico. Great genetics borders the aria worth looking at because the list has been fairly short of trophy deer options for New Mexico. It really has.

00:28:46:14 –> 00:28:47:28
It’s been short and it’s gonna get shorter.

00:28:48:00 –> 00:28:53:23
Yeah. You couple two B that just seems like it continues to fall off with 1800 collective tags. It just crush

00:28:53:23 –> 00:29:13:00
And now they crush in place. The youth hunt in October had 150 tags. It’s destroy a lot of, they moved it to the end of November to December one with 150 tags. They didn’t adjust the tag numbers. You’re gonna crush it. And so, you know, generally states will adjust the tag numbers depending on the season dates, knowing deer are vulnerable. Right. Yeah. And so they just, they’re, and

00:29:13:00 –> 00:29:22:24
It’s a big deal, a deal. I mean 150 bucks that time of year, I mean the success rate’s gonna be high even though it’s a youth hunt. The success rate’s gonna be off the charts. Like it’s, it’s gonna be really high. That’s wound

00:29:22:24 –> 00:29:27:12
All the, the wound rate, the success rate, whatever. There’s gonna be lots of death and happening Yeah. In two

00:29:27:20 –> 00:29:31:22
And that’s gonna make a big difference in the in the whole unit. In the unit. Yeah.

00:29:31:27 –> 00:29:51:05
Yeah. Two Cs hunted lightly on all we, on all weapon types. So does draw a terrible chance to hold over some older deer year to year. And it’s lower deer densities to begin with and you have to manage it that way. But it’s, I guess just nice to have a few new hunt codes to pick from in New Mexico. If you’re hoping to dig up a big buck. There’s just not deep in mule there. That’s,

00:29:51:05 –> 00:29:59:00
But the craziest thing about, it’s like two B and two C border each other and there’s like over 1800 total tags in two B and you can, you know, within with a hundred

00:29:59:00 –> 00:29:59:20
Or something on the

00:29:59:20 –> 00:30:16:00
Other, nothing on two C comparatively. So I mean there’s an obvious management strategy difference there. So there’s a few, there’s a few options. Whether it be two B again, you know, two C, five B, things like that. Four is resident only. So we don’t even talk about that too much anymore.

00:30:17:24 –> 00:30:27:11
I did on New Mexico, Arizona, Jason, Jason, you’ve, you’ve burned your quote once in lifetime, max points in Arizona killed the deer of, you know, 10 lifetimes and

00:30:27:11 –> 00:30:29:20
You’ve got, you’ve got a fair number of points there. Yeah,

00:30:29:20 –> 00:30:38:04
No, and I of course as I’ve talked about, I, I’m kind of waiting for that chance for me and I, and I’m, I’ve got a, I’ve got a plan around that because I am maybe, you know, maybe

00:30:38:14 –> 00:30:46:14
Which means I’m 30 to 50%, which means I’m planning around that. And so my personal strategy would be like more of archery, you know,

00:30:46:14 –> 00:30:46:19

00:30:46:19 –> 00:30:47:04
Archery stuff

00:30:47:04 –> 00:30:48:22
Now, now that you’re building points. Yeah.

00:30:48:22 –> 00:31:06:14
And maybe I’ll go with the seasons that you’re looking at. Just my first choice and then archery is a second. Hoping maybe I get lucky on a random as my first choice, but knowing I’m kind of marking those dates out, you know, hoping that you’re, you’re gonna snag a tag and you’re right on the bubble. You’re dealing with a few people in your tier. Yeah.

00:31:06:25 –> 00:31:18:06
So, and then once I get done with that, I’ll, I’ll be, it’ll be more opportunity or archery hunts from then on. Or you got COOs deer in Arizona that you can always fall back on deer points or just deer points. Which you did once, I dunno, six, seven years ago I

00:31:18:11 –> 00:31:26:12
You did, oh I ate that tag again. But I love eating tags. But meaning I went, I actually didn’t just stay home and eat it. Like I went and spent more money. You

00:31:26:12 –> 00:31:26:17
Went and

00:31:26:29 –> 00:31:33:11
I spent gas money. You doubled. I doubled down. Doubled down on it. And I’m not a good gambler.

00:31:33:14 –> 00:31:46:26
But anyway, Arizona is one of those long-term yielder state. There are a few other states other than the 12 and 13 units up north, few other units in the state that can produce big deer. They’re not as close to us as these that are right here in northern Arizona.

00:31:46:26 –> 00:31:47:23
That’s three, three c some of those.

00:31:47:25 –> 00:32:07:01
Yeah, some of those like that, you know, one occasionally or 27. Yeah. And even 10 and some nine and some other weird places like that, that big deer pop up. But in general terms, that’s a long-term mul deer strategy until maybe you draw one. But if you don’t have a lot of points built up, the only reason I’m holding out is I do, I’ve got like 20. But they’re

00:32:07:01 –> 00:32:15:25
Holding you hostage. They are. And that’s the one thing we’ve talked about in other podcasts is you be careful that these points aren’t holding you hostage. Yeah. It burn them and run. And if

00:32:15:25 –> 00:32:24:04
You’ve got enough, okay, wait. If you’re within a a striking distance, do it. But if you’re a 10 to 15, that sounds like a lot. It’s really no man’s life

00:32:24:18 –> 00:32:35:06
Soul man. And what we’ve talked about holding you being held hostage is okay when, like you have four other plans for this year. Yeah. Not a big deal. So like it’s okay to be held hostage. Who cares. Right. If it was, you’re not planning on it.

00:32:35:06 –> 00:32:44:05
You, if I get it, I know and I’m planning around it at least the date wise. So if I get it, I can give all of its due diligence and attention and, and put all I have into the hunt. There

00:32:44:05 –> 00:32:56:04
Was guys that are like, we talked about Adam, you said no man’s land and, and if you’re in no man’s land at let’s say 13 points, you can draw a late hunt for cos deer December. Oh yeah. An amazing hunt. Sent Russ Young on there. Yeah,

00:32:56:08 –> 00:32:57:01
My boy down

00:32:57:03 –> 00:32:58:08
In 23. Your

00:32:58:08 –> 00:33:17:14
Boy random tag. But still. Yeah. Yeah. You have a great experience in December hunting Cote. But I, you know, we’ve talked about Nevada quite a bit. You know, either it’s a landowner tag process or, or or applying for tags. It’s a tough state to draw tag in. They look at all five choices I think collectively. Sometimes we wish they wouldn’t do that.

00:33:17:16 –> 00:33:18:23
Mix and match weapon types.

00:33:19:04 –> 00:33:34:12
Yep. So people end up putting pie in the skies for their first couple and then all the other tags is their third through fifth. And there’s not great drawing odds unless you in my mind go down the list of what I would define as true trophy units and or or

00:33:34:18 –> 00:33:41:06
Do archery. Archery. Yeah. Like you’re just what you said right there. Archery in like the sixes, sevens that stuff up more so

00:33:41:06 –> 00:33:42:16
1 0 1 to 1 0 8. It’s

00:33:42:17 –> 00:33:44:29
Freaking good right now. Yeah. It’s in an upswing up there. Yep.

00:33:45:13 –> 00:34:03:23
Be realistic in, in Nevada, if you’re new to the points game, early rifles and or archery are the way to go. They don’t generally give that many muzzle loader tags and so they aren’t as good of odds as you’d think for a primitive weapon, even though you know their inlines are, you can use ’em but you can’t use scopes. But Nevada muzzle loader are terrible odds.

00:34:03:23 –> 00:34:19:17
It’s been, it it is. But it’s also been my favorite. ’cause you feel like you have a governor say, well it’s September 10th. October 4th. And generally speaking, generally speaking for 90% of the state and you just, it’s awesome. Like, like Adam said, no tags basically, but you can

00:34:19:17 –> 00:34:21:23
Get ’em. They’re well worth having but they’re,

00:34:22:01 –> 00:34:38:14
And they’re their summer pattern and yeah, it’s just, anyway, killed, killed many good bucks during the muzzle or season over there and it’s just been, it’s been awesome. So don’t be scared of it. However, you do need to be able to see open sight. So if you got that problem, it’s not a modern muzzle state so to speak. Yeah.

00:34:39:26 –> 00:35:16:02
Utah, we, we’ve talked a lot about our general season strategy here. You know, we as residents we have to pick either between deer, elk or antelope to apply for. So you know, all of us in the office are a little bit different. Some are on deer, some are now on elk, things like that. So we can’t really base around a whole lot. We’ve, we’ve used deer points in the past. Some of us, Jason still has probably the most, but you know, we’ve used our elk points in the past so we’re kind of generally in this other new, Jeff, you’ve got, you got a few, sounds like your wife is in the, in the running for that for elk tag. But for Deere, I dunno that we’re commanding

00:35:16:06 –> 00:35:29:12
Anything. I turned my tag back last year. I drew a tag, kind of forced to draw and turn it back. But that’s another thing. We got these turn back options. Nevada, Utah, Colorado, late, you turn ’em back and get all your points. Not that year’s point, but all your prior points. So one thing we

00:35:29:12 –> 00:35:50:10
Gotta remember about Utah is for deer you have three different places you can get a point, right. Dedicated for Deere, general Deere and limited entry for Deere. And as a non-resident, every one of those are available for you to buy a point for. Right. A resident as well. But, but that’s one option that guys need to just keep it in the back of your mind.

00:35:50:13 –> 00:35:51:10
I like the option. There’s those

00:35:51:12 –> 00:35:52:17
Three different

00:35:52:17 –> 00:36:22:07
Points and we have our license app guys, a large percentage of ’em getting at least a point for general deer. It’s cheap, it’s, it’s nothing so to speak. And so get you a general point. We’ve got outfitters that work on some of these general units. There’s good bucks coming off the general, you are gonna see a sea of orange similar to Colorado. You are, you’re gonna be having a lot of people on that general. But it’s a great opportunity to go and have a kind of, another backup opportunity is me and my kids, me and my boy, me and my dad, whatever it is you can go,

00:36:22:08 –> 00:36:33:11
It’s a low stress tag, low stress tag. It’s a fun tag. You go, you have a good time. And if you take it, if you took it serious like it was a big deal tag, you might walk out with a freaking giant.

00:36:33:18 –> 00:36:56:17
Yeah. That’s gonna happen this year. ’cause we’re taking it serious. Let’s jump to elk. Yeah, elk is one of those things I think, I think it’s interesting how people say that mule deer, you know, book non-typical mule deer book, typical whatever are the hardest things to kill. But you know, when, when you, when it comes to elk, go try to kill a book head. Yeah. They’re hard. How many people do you know that have killed a book head?

00:36:56:17 –> 00:36:57:12
They’re hard too. It’s

00:36:57:12 –> 00:36:57:26
A big deal. They’re,

00:36:58:00 –> 00:37:04:29
I mean, extremely tough. And so just getting a tag is a trophy in and of itself, let alone actually laying one down. That’s, that’s a giant,

00:37:05:20 –> 00:38:00:05
It does feel like when you get a good elk tag, a three 50 plus, you know, and I don’t know, we can debate on what that equivalent is in mule deer inches, but it feels like that’s a little bit more of a, I don’t know if certainty’s too strong a word, but it feels like when you get a good elk tag or you buy a good elk tag, things do happen more often than not when you get a good mule deer tag through the draw or lanter tag, it still takes a lot. Everything feels like it has to go right to still capitalize on those tags. But, but to Jason’s point, killing a a a a three 80 to 400 inch type bull, which is what it’s gonna take a gross bull to be able to net 3 75 or 3 85 and you know, that’s a significant bull. Significant bull. But having said that, you know, we don’t hunt elk as often. We’ve, I dunno, I’m kind of through hunting elk to just hunt elk myself. They’re hunting

00:38:00:05 –> 00:38:00:23
Or elk snobs.

00:38:01:03 –> 00:38:01:29
What? Well, we’re elk

00:38:02:05 –> 00:38:02:11

00:38:02:12 –> 00:38:43:17
A little bit. I just want ’em to be really good hunts or I’m fine to not hunt elk that year. Some people are completely different. My philosophy could be different than somebody else that’s wanting three elk hunts for the year and they don’t really care about me all. But for me, I usually draw elk when I know I’m gonna draw elk. You know, I cashed in my Colorado points a few years ago, cashed in my Arizona points a couple years ago, my Wyoming points before that and then I’m on rotations. Of course there’s states like Utah and Nevada that just now randomly could happen, but New Mexico. But I, I don’t plan my year personally around hunting elk unless, like I alluded earlier, I have a family member that’s gonna draw a big bull tag here in Utah. That’s different. I usually know when I’m gonna hunt elk. I don’t know if that’s the same with you

00:38:43:17 –> 00:39:24:26
Jason. Yeah, no, and, and it is and and I’ve done the same thing. So I’ve, I’ve you know, basically utilized my opportunity for Nevada. I’ve drawn clear back in year 2000, hunted one specific bull and ate my tag there. Another, another eater anyway and, but then in Utah as well, ate my tag there, but did my, you know, draw there. But I then I picked up a landowner tag here and there and New Mexico. I’ve drawn, new Mexico’s actually treated me at best. Yeah. I’ve killed a couple of bulls over three 80 and it’s just one of those states that have really done well. I’m gonna be very aggressive in New Mexico. Yeah. They, they’re getting the moisture. There’s no points associated. I it’s okay, I’m, it’s okay to kind of draw and fail to try

00:39:24:26 –> 00:39:25:26
And fail. Go, I’m

00:39:25:26 –> 00:39:26:11
Gonna try something,

00:39:26:15 –> 00:39:27:01
Go down swinging

00:39:27:04 –> 00:39:43:01
Weird stuff, you know, and so anyway, I’ll be doing some weird stuff there again, I usually don’t know and, and I know everybody might think I’m lying. I’m not, I don’t have a plan for which unit I want necessarily. It’s kind of that day when Adam and I are on a tangent and all of a sudden we just throw in for the draw.

00:39:43:07 –> 00:39:54:08
Well, and, and down there you get three choices. And so unlike some other states like Utah, you put in, you know, if you draw that’s what you’re gonna get. And yeah, down there you got three choices and all are valid. So

00:39:54:25 –> 00:39:56:24
Mix and match weapons. Who knows, you

00:39:56:24 –> 00:40:40:08
Know, you don’t know. I usually, I usually stick to a season date chunk on a lot of my choices. Like if my September’s good, which it does not look like it’s gonna be this year, I’ll put all my hunts in the September. So I know if I draw it’s right during the window, I know I can go do it. Or if it’s gonna be on one of the rifle muzzle loaders, it’s early to first two weeks of October. That’s usually how I apply in New Mexico. I usually favor archery, but my Septembers seem to be more busy than my October. So more often than not I end up gravitating to the, to the muzzle loader or rifle stuff there or the early archery, the, the first to the 14th, which I think is undervalued to some extent. You know, it’s, everybody wants hunt deeper into September, but first to the 14th sometimes is the time to kill a big bow.

00:40:40:19 –> 00:41:07:13
So anyway, that’s what I normally chase down there this year. We’re gonna go after it. It’s green light, full speed ahead. New Mexico, Arizona too. But you lump that into it. But we don’t have the points to command to draw down there. I don’t think any of us in the office do. We’ve, Chris has drawn a couple years ago I’d, I’m rebuilding Jason to some extent. You are, you’ve got, I dunno, six or seven probably down there. So those two states though, green light, do all you can to get out tags this year in our opinion.

00:41:07:17 –> 00:41:31:20
Well, and look close at the magazine this, this month. If, if you’re a magazine subscriber, look close, there’s a couple new hunts that we’ve added in there in New Mexico. Different season, differing season dates in a lot of units. So pay attention to those, those dates, you know what I mean? Really look at the magazine close, you can see exactly what you know, what we’re talking about there. And you can plan your app strategy using that information.

00:41:31:29 –> 00:41:43:10
What about elk in Utah? I mean, we’re residents here. Once again, not all of us can even apply for elk here in Utah, but it’s a long-term plan. If you want to, if you wanna hunt big bulls in Utah. Who is on?

00:41:43:11 –> 00:41:44:07
Are you you’re on.

00:41:44:07 –> 00:41:45:16
Yeah, I’m technically am now.

00:41:45:17 –> 00:41:46:19
Yeah. Yeah, I’m on elk.

00:41:47:08 –> 00:42:20:12
Trish, you’re on deer. John’s on elk deer. John’s got mid to high teens and elk. He’s got, he’s within striking distance. We did look at some hunts the other day that he could maybe draw the muzzle order. Definitely archery. But Jason, you’re on deer, so you know, but for non-residents it’s the same thing. It’s a, it’s a, you know, try to use your points however you can. The, the glory days, all the 400 inches in Utah have, have, have gone. They’re solid. I don’t see ’em getting better or worse or better really right now. They just kind of are what they are. Use your points to get what you can there to the extent possible.

00:42:20:26 –> 00:42:26:25
I’m pretty bummed out. I was planning on a unit, well this year, last year it jumped up two points, just put, just took it outta reach.

00:42:26:28 –> 00:42:28:13
And that’s in the resident pool you’re talking

00:42:28:13 –> 00:42:44:10
About. It’s in the resident pool changed two points. And so I’m like, well I guess my archery elk tugs gone. So what do I do now? You know, because I was kind of planning, I was kind of banking on drawing that in the next year or two. And it’s obvious that it’s gonna be years, years chasing that. So I’m not gonna chase it. I’m just gonna find something else.

00:42:45:06 –> 00:43:38:14
Well, elk in Arizona, you know, Utah, Nevada, you’re, if you’re gonna apply it all, you’re gonna apply for probably elk and deer and maybe other species since you’re already buying the hunting license. But you really, you’re, you’re not predictably gonna draw a Utah tag unless you’ve got 20 plus points. Now, similarly in Nevada, you can’t predict it. We generally tell people plan on 10 to 15 years at least, and that seems to be maybe going even higher than that now. But you know, they square your points and throw your name in the hat a bunch. You just draw when you draw, you just can’t predict it. I use Nevada like Jason has, I I hold out for the exact hunts and units that I want because when you draw, you’re done. You got a seven year weight and then by the time you start over again, it’s a, it’s a one or two tag in your lifetime thing in Nevada. So I, I just hold out for what I want in Nevada. I don’t, I don’t get cute like we maybe talked about in New Mexico. Mix match year to year, do whatever. So,

00:43:39:03 –> 00:44:28:04
Okay. Well yeah, I do a lot in New Mexico as far as, I’ve drawn a lot of those early rifles that we talked about a little bit and I killed a, you know, a 360 7 bull down there in 23 on the first archery, so about September 7th. And they were bugling like crazy and so great opportunity there. We’ve kind of covered that enough as far as Nevada, there’s a lot of good units besides just the Ely units. The Ely units are always gonna be awesome. They’re always gonna, people are gonna gravitate to that ’cause it’s kind of what’s been popular for years and years and years. I have a good friend that Drew area six up there with the muzzle. It was awesome off the charts unit and so there’s some big bulls in area 13, the 1 31, 1 32 country. And so there’s, there’s a lot of application options for big bulls and trophy hunters and like Adam said, five points, you can’t really tell they square the points.

00:44:28:13 –> 00:44:55:12
It’s not like you can force the draw over there. So Wyoming’s one of those, they do have random tags. There’s some units that don’t have random tags. There’s not very many non-resident tags so to speak, in a lot of those units. And so be careful when you look at our drawing odds, make sure there’s a random tag if you don’t have enough points to draw those and to force it as you wanna make sure you’re in a random draw. And so anyway, that’s, that’s the boat I’m in, in large part up there. I could, I could force the draw. I’m looking at a few things

00:44:55:12 –> 00:44:56:10
You could have put in there this year.

00:44:56:12 –> 00:44:57:12
Yeah, but you are, but

00:44:58:02 –> 00:44:58:23
You are. Yep.

00:44:59:05 –> 00:45:07:17
Yeah. Okay. Yeah, it’s a good year up there. And so I’m, you heard, unlike you, you’ve killed enough, those three 50 bulls. I’m looking, continue to lay ’em down.

00:45:07:26 –> 00:45:22:02
Well I’m, I like killing ’em. I just, I guess you, if I don’t draw one I don’t, I don’t care’s. Not the end of the world. I’m gonna do points in Wyoming here myself. My September. Yeah. I’m generally gonna favor the archery hunt and I, I just don’t have time to September some years, some gonna do

00:45:22:02 –> 00:45:50:19
Points in some years in Idaho, you know, we’ll do sheep and if you do sheep you can’t do anything else. Or if you do goat, you can’t do anything else for moose. Or you can do deer, elk, and antelope. And so, you know, some years we are applying for one of those crazy awesome opportunities such as 54 for elk and, and they’ve got some of the biggest bulls in the west. There’s some of the absolute most biggest amazing elk in, in the state of Idaho in unit 54. So I don’t know, might do something like that too. So there you go. Does that cover it? Pretty good.

00:45:50:27 –> 00:46:30:13
You forgot Colorado elk. Oh, we could sell that up very quickly. Point creep is the worst of all the states. There’s not enough. And for trophy, trophy out hunters, it, it’s really not a state unless they change the point system and draw system in the future. It’s pretty depressing. Units that are taking 20 plus points to draw like 61 even you’re, you’re still not expecting to hunt three 50 bulls. You’re just not. And it’s just a product of Colorado log jamming everybody into the same eight or 10 units. And you know, there’s other weird units, you know, coming on. We’re hearing some things about, you know, other units in the state, you know, like

00:46:30:20 –> 00:46:47:13
Gunnison Sison, there’s good opportunities. We’ll cover that in the magazine. And so, you know, but it’s hard when guys come to us with an app strategy if they want giant bulls, you know, we’re not telling ’em to get points in Colorado. Not even telling ’em to get points. But if you’re looking for 300 to three 20 or something like that, yeah, grab a point, you know,

00:46:47:19 –> 00:47:11:08
Two three points. Draw a muzzle loader tag or something like that. And a few units, there’s some outfitters and stuff that are out, you know, they’re chasing 300 inch bulls on those hunts and with, with decent success rates. So there are some options there for the low point guy. It’s just, if you’re even sitting there looking at the top couple units in Colorado and you got 20 points, forget it, you’re still not gonna draw those top, top couple units. No, you’re not. It’s not gonna happen.

00:47:11:20 –> 00:47:17:04
Okay, sounds good. We’ve covered it pretty well. Unless you guys wanna talk about organ elk or something like that.

00:47:18:08 –> 00:47:18:14

00:47:18:14 –> 00:47:20:25
Good. Okay. Let’s jump into sheep, goat, moose.

00:47:22:19 –> 00:48:32:04
Yeah. Well sheep are the, with the exception of you know, like maybe our home state here, Jason drew his desert tag through the max point, you know, set aside process, forcing the draw, so to speak. I’m due for that here shortly. Jeff’s dad, as we’ve talked about on the rocky mountain side’s, due for that this year next, ignoring those for the time being because there are other states like that, like Wyoming, we filled in people’s calls the last week or so have 19 or 20 points. It’s a big deal to pick the right year, the year in your schedule to do that. You’re going to get a tag here in the next handful of years. But for the most part, we’ll we’ll gloss over those because if you, if you weren’t on on the ba, you know, points building game 20 years ago in some of these states that set aside ’em, you’re really talking about the random draw for sheep, goat, and moose and bison. We’ll just lump them in. You should simply apply for as many states as you can or can afford. Or that are easy add-ons. Like we talked about the, the Utah, Nevada, Arizona states that charge you a hunting license. If you’re gonna apply it for deer, elk for 10 or 15 bucks, add a, add a sheep application and almost just forget about it. Yeah, hundred percent. ’cause sheep tags just, that’s how they’re gonna be gonna happen.

00:48:32:07 –> 00:48:34:06
They fall. What They fall. Yep. They come when they come. So,

00:48:34:06 –> 00:48:48:07
And we can probably go through the states that we would probably maybe should break for through Rocky or deserts. Jason, I don’t know if you want to, do you pick one? I’ll do the other, just jump in something just for what you do starting in Rockies. I guess first we’ll just do Rockies.

00:48:48:08 –> 00:49:35:18
Well, yeah, so for Rockies, Adam and I have often talked Rockies maybe even a, a tighter bottleneck than deserts. It used to be the deserts were the toughest animal to, you know, obtain a tag for and actually put in your collection so to speak. Where we’re finding Rockies are actually the bottleneck. And so, you know, definitely we consider applying for Rockies every year in Idaho and in, and in a lot of cases we do, especially like deer in elk, you know, especially this last year. Deer in a slump definitely might continue within in Idaho being in a slump, they just don’t rebound in one year. So we might definitely consider applying for Rockies up there and have that be our application choice. Montana, you know, we killed a, a California Bighorn in Oregon and it’s technically a rocky, you know, I kind of go for the gold in Montana personally.

00:49:35:21 –> 00:50:12:12
Go for the gold and, and you know, hunt the brakes or something like that. Or, or an equivalent somewhere we think we can kill 190 inch type ram. However, this last year was tough to find. One 90 type rams up there just was in a little bit of a funk. And so that’s what we do up there. Wyoming, man, I, you know, I was applying, I’m, I don’t have enough points. I’m in a random draw forever. You can tell that they forced me to pay 150 bucks to get a point. Not too fond of that. It doesn’t make me super happy. And I’m in this random draw of one in 300. I’ve gotta decide with the two and a half, you know, percent credit card fee. Is that worth it to me? Is it worth it? A couple benies, I think plus it’s about

00:50:12:12 –> 00:50:20:12
2 20, 220 nonrefundable to apply for. That’s right. Sheep’s. But you the applic, but you also front the tag fee when you apply. So yeah,

00:50:20:13 –> 00:50:31:08
How happy is that? Make a guy And so may or may not happen. It kind of depends on the year and and whatnot. So And I think you’re similar in a similar boat. Yeah, we

00:50:31:08 –> 00:50:49:29
Do. I, you know, I do, I do most years, but some years depending on how I’m feeling, I don’t feel it. And, and some of the, the random number of tags have, have gone down and so there used to be, the random odds have gotten worse there. So there’s random odds have gotten worse and the price has gone up. It’s not a no-brainer for Rockies. It’s simply not

00:50:50:23 –> 00:50:57:22
Colorado. We’re not gonna let it go. We’re definitely gonna be continue to apply there. However, they’re gonna be a hundred bucks non-refundable to get a point. Looks like yeah,

00:50:57:22 –> 00:51:07:07
We’re, we’re heavily invested last year. They kinda opened the floodgates. You didn’t have to do the paper application with black and cheaper capital letters and send a check in and all that.

00:51:07:16 –> 00:51:09:08
A number nine envelope or 10 or whatever it is,

00:51:09:19 –> 00:51:30:00
Whatever it was. And we played that game for what, 10 or 15 years? 15 years. We we’re both, you know, three plus 12 or 15 points or more in, in the hat there. Now last year they opened it up to floodgates to everybody. $3 application fee. And it, it was thousands and thousands of applicants five to 7,000 award.

00:51:30:03 –> 00:51:35:18
Some of these, everybody and everybody complained. They listened. Yeah. And now they’re charging us a hundred non-refundable. She’s

00:51:35:18 –> 00:51:38:29
Goat plus buying an $85 license, $85 license and a hundred bucks.

00:51:39:16 –> 00:52:06:17
So I had a guy yesterday, he’s like, guy really pissed me off and I wrote him a letter and I said, you know, now I’ve got everybody in there and before I’ve been doing this. And I said, well, well buddy, they listened. They’re now charging you a hundred bucks per species that’s gonna weeded everybody out. Well they are, they’re gonna screw pay, that’s they’re charging too much. And it’s like they don’t, you don’t know what to say. We all complain and then they listen and then we all complain, right? I mean now I’m gonna shell out the cash. And so yes,

00:52:06:17 –> 00:52:26:00
They’ve kind of got us all apply there forever. It’s not a, not an elite trophy rocky state. At least for the units that we non-residents can normally apply for. They’re usually cal one 60 to 1 75 rams for the most part. But we’re gonna do it. I’d like, I wanna hunt a, I wanna hunt a alpine type, A true Rocky Mountain Rockies sometime in my life. I do, I wanna do that. So

00:52:26:05 –> 00:52:29:02
Kill a upper one eighties, Ryan Benson type sheep. How about

00:52:29:02 –> 00:52:33:26
That? That’d be right back to Wyoming. Yeah. Or Idaho. That’s got me thinking. You bet. So

00:52:34:07 –> 00:52:49:16
All right now you know, and I drew last year for deserts in Arizona. They will now, you know, I can continue to draw even though sheet points are sheet points. Yeah. You got two points. They’re good for either or. Yeah, I’ve got the loyalty in Hunter ed. I pretty much planning on drawing a Rocky, Rocky in Arizona. Well tell

00:52:49:16 –> 00:52:51:14
Me about, how about that You didn’t apply four and I’ll block the dates off. Right.

00:52:52:10 –> 00:52:55:25
How about 27, 6 or 28? I don’t know. I’m not sure.

00:52:56:16 –> 00:53:01:23
But that one’s one that you can do a Rocky Inn. We’ll talk more about the deserts here in a bit. But then what’s next?

00:53:01:25 –> 00:53:22:13
New Mexico? Well New Mexico. Yeah, that’s one. You’re gonna have to front the fees, put it on your card, let ’em sit on it for a sec. Brutal odds. You’ve got the guide. Draw the non guide. We break those odds out in the magazine. It’s generally twice as good if you go on the, in the guide draw. And it’s kind of an interesting way, the way they divvy out tags. Yeah. And the way the percentages lie,

00:53:22:26 –> 00:53:51:13
It, it is, you know, it’s, it about doubles your odds but you know, roughly, I think we’re talking one in six and 700 versus one in 12 to 1400. I mean that’s basically what it is. If you’re gonna go guide it anyway, you should probably apply it with an outfitter in the guide. Drop doesn’t hurt you. Most people, you know, a lot of people would probably go guide it on that hunt. They don’t give very many tags. Big sheep though. So it’s kind of a dream big state. You know, if you could draw one of the, what, two or three non-resident tags, you’ve really got something you said won

00:53:51:13 –> 00:54:01:00
The gold, you’re gonna kill good right. Nevada. Nevada, since we’re on Rockies, I guess basically for non-residents we get to apply for the California big horns and we just say do ’em all. It looks like they’ve got some couple new

00:54:01:00 –> 00:54:01:16
Ones, maybe units

00:54:02:05 –> 00:54:21:07
Proposed and so we’ll see how that shakes out. But anyway, definitely apply for those. There’s separate points for deserts versus cali’s they’re in, in Nevada it doesn’t hurt you, it’s cheap application fee. You don’t have to front the tag fee. So we do ’em all, we apply for every unit available, there’s five choices and in the past there’s only been four options. So That’s right.

00:54:21:17 –> 00:54:22:07
So everybody’s

00:54:22:07 –> 00:54:23:17
In every single one. That’s right.

00:54:23:17 –> 00:54:38:04
That pretty much. And then I guess we’ll, we’ll gloss over Oregon and Washington. Washington, you know, a hundred, 110 or so bucks a per species for sheet moose and goat. Yeah. In a, in a squared point system that’s been around for a long, long time. So it’s a little junky

00:54:38:04 –> 00:54:39:00
Jump in with the residents.

00:54:39:07 –> 00:55:17:04
Yeah. Yes, that’s right. It, no, no resident non-resident quotas of the two Oregon definitely feels like the better option. Jason and I drew back in the day when I think the license was about 70 bucks. 70 bucks or something like that. And then $8 per species. Now it’s 167 I believe 165 ish for Oregon. 70 Oregon. And so it’s not as, you know, it’s another, it’s 175 bucks to apply for sheep and if you’re gonna do it, might as well add eight bucks for goat and deer and elk points for eight bucks on those two, no, no points in Oregon, mostly California. Bighorn, I think about five if I’m not mistaken. Do going from memory five units this year, year one, one rocky one, true rocky unit for

00:55:17:04 –> 00:55:17:24
Four non-residents.

00:55:17:24 –> 00:55:29:29
For non-residents. That’s right. So we’ve done it, we’ve drawn it, we’ve moved on I guess. But it is still a state that a lot of people, it registers in their head, Hey, there’s no points I’m gonna do Oregon and, and it’s hard to tell you not to do it for that.

00:55:30:13 –> 00:55:46:19
And we do. Yeah, but, but your odds, I mean you gotta look at a one in 250 to one 400 on your Cali and would you pay $175 for that raffle ticket if it was a true raffle? And that’s, that’s just how we, that’s how we paint the pitcher. Yeah. Everybody’s in a different boat. It may or may not fit you.

00:55:46:23 –> 00:56:03:13
Yep, that’s right. So that kind of goes over to Rockies, doesn’t it? Yeah. So we’re good deserts. There’s obviously fewer states to talk about when it comes to that. Nevada’s probably the first one everybody should consider. They give roughly 30 tags a year to non-residents. The most desert sheep tags of all the other states combined.

00:56:03:19 –> 00:56:04:10
10 in Arizona.

00:56:04:13 –> 00:56:05:08
Yeah. So ish

00:56:05:08 –> 00:56:05:25

00:56:05:25 –> 00:56:44:24
On the year and yeah, so definitely add it. You get five unit choices, still tough to draw. Very high demand for it. Nothing’s easy in Nevada but it still, they give the most tags. Arizona’s the next most. Like Jason said, they draw about a hundred, 110 total sheep tags in Arizona a a year. Which non-residents can get up to 10%. Up to 10%. Some of those could go to Rockies, but, but the majority of their state, we generally consider Arizona apply for desert sheep state. The rocky tags are so fewer units, the odds get worse. You can’t really play the odds on the Rockies so to speak. But once you draw a desert like Jason has, you gotta switch to Rockies and you’re naturally gonna do that.

00:56:45:04 –> 00:56:52:01
And some guys will do first choice desert, second choice rocking. Yep. Or vice versa. It doesn’t hurt you. Points or points. That’s right. Tags or tags. So,

00:56:52:07 –> 00:57:00:06
But definitely one we always do for desert sheep for sure is Arizona. Jason, you know, had an awesome hunt with him last year. Living proof, real people do draw

00:57:00:13 –> 00:57:48:26
Just, and I think this, this is maybe the time to talk about that Adam, as you and we’ve talked about it in the past, you know, is, is what’s on paper, what people kill on paper is really indicative of the, of the people that draw the tag. Not how much, not what’s truly in the unit. You have no idea what, what it’s, a lot of these guys are hunting with bows down there in Arizona, which is great. The sheep are, you know, I wouldn’t say easy to kill with a bow, but they’re not that difficult in most units, right? And so guys elect to choose to hunt with a bow and with that they’ll, they might not go for the biggest ram in the unit or whatnot. And when you have one or two total tags or in May in more, in some cases you truly don’t know what those genetics hold. When you start seeing a unit that looks like it’s killing 170 in trams and they’re six years old like my unit was, there might be something bigger because who knows who drew those tags. I mean we don’t even know what effort was sample size

00:57:49:04 –> 00:57:55:16
A lie one and the, and they’re killing one 70 for two years in a row with only one rap. Okay, there’s something decent going on

00:57:55:20 –> 00:57:57:08
There. Something going on there. Yeah. And the

00:57:57:08 –> 00:58:08:18
Point you’re getting at is of course if you’re an aggressive hunter, if you can do it, don’t be afraid to play for stuff that’s not the absolute best unit in the state to, so you can increase your odds of getting that tax. Well

00:58:08:18 –> 00:58:15:14
That’s maybe the best Nelson I, you know, killed in the state on a not the best unit, not what you would put on paper as this

00:58:15:14 –> 00:58:18:23
Unit. Right. Not on anybody’s real radar. It hasn’t has a track record of a big gram.

00:58:18:23 –> 00:58:32:05
Right. So and, and Adam and I are you always, always applying for kind of the weird out of the way off the off the wall type units knowing that there’s a chance for something good. Yeah. Anywhere. And that’s the same thing with Nevada. Nevada too. Same thing to

00:58:32:05 –> 00:58:33:19
The extent possible. Exactly.

00:58:33:29 –> 00:58:37:10
So be aggressive. Don’t just say I only want the best or nothing. Yeah.

00:58:37:10 –> 00:58:51:14
And that’s generally our philosophy on sheep, both rocky and deserts collectively. Now there may be a few instances like Montana that have the biggest Rockies of all the states. We generally go for higher trophy quality there ourselves because But you’ve already

00:58:51:14 –> 00:58:52:00
Killed the

00:58:52:00 –> 00:59:27:12
Rocky. That’s right. And but, but Colorado and, and all these others, we’re probably not gonna kill book rams. No. Probably not gonna happen. So we just wanna get drawn and we’ve even done archery sometimes in Colorado. But moving over to New Mexico, you can apply for both rocky and desert sheep on one application and apply for three choices each. They don’t charge you total. Yes. They don’t charge you 3,200 bucks twice for once for Rocky, once for desert. So you might as well apply for both. Oh yeah. There’s no reason not to, even if you’ve already killed the desert or Rocky apply for, I don’t know. Unless you just truly say, Hey I’m gonna, don’t wanna be selfish. I’ve killed one. I won’t offer,

00:59:27:22 –> 00:59:31:07
I wouldn’t pay the three grand for a rocky tag. Yeah, okay. Or desert. Okay. Okay.

00:59:31:19 –> 00:59:48:11
I get that. But we do, we we do do that and, and and plan on it. Moving up to Colorado, they draw one or have been driving drawing one desert sheep tag a year for nonresident for non-resident for nonresident. Yep. We don’t, we can’t pick it. ’cause if you choose Rocky Mountain Big Horn, you can’t apply for deserts

00:59:48:20 –> 01:00:00:02
And vice versa. That’s, and they don’t have a point system for deserts. And so there’s a lot of guys that do have the three preference and then some weighted and then they wonder if they should switch over for one in roughly 1200 odds depending on the year.

01:00:00:08 –> 01:00:17:17
We generally tell you no, don’t, unless you kill a rocky and you said I just need another name in the hat on a desert state somewhere. And so in that case, I guess do it, we did have one of our members draw this last year killed an awesome ram. We’ll have that story up coming in the march Issuer magazine killed it. The one non-resident draw tag

01:00:17:25 –> 01:00:31:02
As I as we talk about Colorado Adam, they do have archery only tags and at times, and Adam’s talked about this earlier in the podcast, but we will choose archery in, in, in, in a lot of years over there. Yeah. We’re playing the odds just

01:00:31:02 –> 01:01:02:16
For the odds and maybe part of it is we’ve killed a California slash Rockies so we’re just like, just give us another tag to hunt sheep somehow and that that the odds are generally a lot better over there. So probably the last unit, we’ll talk about California quickly. We don’t apply for desert sheep in California. They, they draw up to 10%, which has only been one non-resident tag for the last handful of years. We’ll just say it’s a fairly expensive license. 160 or 80 bucks. I’m going off of memory. And then they’d run the maximum point draw first.

01:01:02:16 –> 01:01:04:05
75%. Yeah.

01:01:04:08 –> 01:01:19:11
Yeah. And so they give 75% of the tags to people with the maximum points. If a non-resident draws a max point tag. That’s our tag. There is no random non resident tag that year. Now we’re hearing rumblings that they’re gonna be potentially upping the tags a little bit in California this year. Maybe

01:01:19:11 –> 01:01:20:00
That’ll give us two.

01:01:20:02 –> 01:01:36:18
They might give us two, but that’s remains to be seen. It’s still when you factor in, they give up to one antelope tag up to one elk tag. There’s not a lot of other reasons to add California collectively. So it’s an easy one for to not do. But if you’ve got max points or you’re resident in California, obviously

01:01:36:18 –> 01:01:42:02
Then you should do it. You should do it. But we counsel people daily not to do it. It’s not worth the money. That’s right.

01:01:42:15 –> 01:01:56:17
It’s kind of interesting. There’s a lot of people who lived in California built all those points. I talked to a guy last night, he has 20 points for, for sheep and he moved to Utah, now he’s applying as a non-resident. And he’s like, is it even worth

01:01:56:17 –> 01:02:08:11
Me? Even with 20 points? Can’t think Max is quite that high. But to your point somewhere he’s, he’s had went from bad odds with resident max to terrible as a non-resident with Max. Yeah, it’s tough.

01:02:08:18 –> 01:02:24:26
Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, frustrated definitely with California and not something that, you know, especially like they give, and I didn’t want to go here, but they give like one up to, up to one non-resident elk tag. If it’s an, if it’s an Atlas tag that happened to be dvi, then that’s it. Right?

01:02:25:18 –> 01:02:26:28
A Tooley cow tag, that could be

01:02:26:28 –> 01:02:33:19
It. Whatever. And so yeah, not not super big fans there. Let’s jump into moose. Adam, we can

01:02:33:19 –> 01:02:41:17
Be very quick with this. I apply in one state and that’s Montana simply because I started when they started their point system and I still have Max.

01:02:41:25 –> 01:02:49:26
Max. Yeah. That’s, and every year they change the units on what we can apply for and, and sometimes Adam’s like, I don’t see a trophy unit available I

01:02:49:26 –> 01:03:06:12
Want and now they have a points only option. So you can do that if you want. I just, most don’t mean that much to me. They don’t. And, and and I, I have applied back in the day, Jason and I took a year off of sheep or whatever we were doing in Idaho and both applied for neighboring units up there for, for moose.

01:03:06:18 –> 01:03:17:17
Clear up in the panhandle. Yeah. He drew one crap a unit on the year I drew that Arizona deer tech. Yeah. We couldn’t get the moose killed fast enough and in the truck fast enough, let’s get Arizona to get back and start scouting Arizona.

01:03:17:26 –> 01:03:18:20
Cold snowy. It was

01:03:18:27 –> 01:03:20:02
Long drive November 15th

01:03:20:16 –> 01:03:21:18
Or something like that. Drive

01:03:21:21 –> 01:03:22:07
That sucked.

01:03:22:11 –> 01:03:23:08
And, but anyway,

01:03:23:14 –> 01:03:23:24

01:03:23:24 –> 01:03:25:05
Killed the Shire 43.

01:03:25:21 –> 01:03:56:18
Yeah it was 43. And that’s another thing, you start looking on paper and you get excited about inches wide but they don’t, doesn’t mean tell you how they’re built and he wasn’t built that great even though he is 43 inches. He was just a bull. Having said that, I killed one. Put it on the list. That’s great. Continue to apply in other places, other options for, especially for non-residents like Utah, you can apply for everything. Throw it in there, 10 bucks, throw it in there. Colorado has some great moose, great opportunity for guys that are really stuck on doing that. You know, apply for it. Wyoming,

01:03:56:20 –> 01:03:57:24
Get it more expensive. Like we talked about

01:03:57:24 –> 01:03:58:28
Only a few run tags

01:03:59:05 –> 01:04:16:10
But Wyoming is, is tougher. There’s a huge log jam in their point system. They give 75% of their tags to the people with the most points. And so that translates to many use all many units. They gotta give four tags to non-residents unit before one of ’em even have random, a random draw. So, which

01:04:16:10 –> 01:04:21:28
Is kind of contrary to a lot of states. Usually if there’s one tag, it’s available in the random draw. Yeah, it’s not, that’s not the case in

01:04:22:13 –> 01:04:47:24
On filming. So it’s a hard one to say start because you’ve got five or so units, maybe six that they give a random tag in each year and the odds are, you know, pretty bad. 150 to 500 Idaho. We, we talked about that a minute ago. If you choose to apply for moose, it’s, it’s awesome. You’ll, if you said I want a moose tag and you’re willing to pay the non-refundable fee and the 40 something dollars application fee, non-refundable license fee’s, a couple hundred bucks a year

01:04:47:29 –> 01:04:49:23
And have that be your one application,

01:04:49:23 –> 01:04:53:08
You’ll probably draw a moose tag. You could say you’re probably gonna draw one at some point. Yeah.

01:04:53:08 –> 01:05:07:19
Especially if you’re aggressive. There’s so many units to choose from. Yeah. But if you’re only gonna stick for the best in the state or one of the best, yeah, you know, it’s a little bit tougher. But if you’re willing to accept ah, moose tag, there are some really good drawing odds up

01:05:07:19 –> 01:05:11:08
There. There are. I think that’s it. I mean let’s

01:05:11:14 –> 01:05:12:02
Call it a day

01:05:12:04 –> 01:06:05:22
On, on that. Talk about goats real quick. You know, I’ve killed a goat. Jason’s killed a goat, he killed him in Utah. Killed one in Montana. Goats are for, for us, for me, I wouldn’t mind killing one more. Maybe a big one or doing it with a bow or something different. But you don’t need three to four goats in your life, most people. So we can maybe just talk about the states that probably make the most sense to apply for for goats. Like I said, I drew Montana back in 2003, killed the, killed a nice goat, had a great experience, did it on my own with my brother and you know, I still apply for ’em. Had to wait seven years and I’m back in the draw for them there. I don’t, I don’t normally apply for goats anywhere else. I just, I just don’t, I don’t use my one and done application in Idaho form ’cause I’m always gonna choose either sheep or deer or elk. That’s what I’m gonna do there. Occasionally I’ve applied for ’em in Wyoming and I know you have as well.

01:06:05:29 –> 01:07:00:10
Yeah, I have. You know, especially, it just depends. It depends. But Wyoming has no point system for goat or bison and so that’s, you know, it kind of makes it nice with, with guys that haven’t, you know, gained points or started in a, like you said, a well-established point system so to speak. And so it’s truly a random draw. So at times we’ll apply for that. You know, hunt Willard up in northern Utah killed a nice goat. We’ve got points both of us there in Colorado and, and so we do that. Never have you had goat be my one and done so to speak. Application for Idaho, usually doing deer, elk or sheep, something like that. And then in the Montana at times haven’t been super consistent. But goat is one of those things, Adam, we talk about like we can find you a goat hunt in Alaska or in Canada or whatever. You want to kill a goat, you can kill a goat. So that doesn’t break the budget too. It’s, yeah, it doesn’t break the budget.

01:07:00:11 –> 01:07:27:11
It’s at some point in your life, you know, the, we’ll just save round number, round 10 grand. You could save up money and go do a goat hunt and kill, kill a goat and high success and you can do a moose hunt that, you know, whether it be in Canada or or Yukon or Alaska. You’re gonna spend more than 10 grand. But if you want to kill a big, if you just want a moose sometime in the North America 29 or something and a shy risk moose is not like on your list to have to have for a lot of people go kill a, a big one. Go kill those one. Go kill a big one. Go

01:07:27:11 –> 01:07:42:11
Kill a big one. That’s right. Now some people, my some people call ’em Shiraz but go, if you have to have a Shiraz go in the lower 48 and apply. That’s right. You do need to do that. And having said that, Jeff, we’ve got outfitters with Shira moose tattoo. Yeah I actually did a kitty

01:07:42:11 –> 01:08:22:04
Taxi Shire, Utah and then things like that. But if you want to goat, you know, let’s just say, you know, most state tags are average around two grand for a non-resident, 1500, two grand probably. And so you draw that, you’re in it that much and then if you need a guide, you might be in it another five to 6,500. You know, so you’re, you’re not far off from a $10,000 Alaska goat hunt when you draw one. So just keep those things in mind. Con compare that though to a rocky or a desert, you know, you’re 50 to 75,000 anywhere to go touch one where you’re gonna probably have a good chance to 100% different on different’s situations. Yeah. That’s outta reach for a lot of people. Maybe at any point in their life where a goat is something you can, you know, if you’re, you can, you can go do it any way you can

01:08:22:04 –> 01:08:58:17
Wrap your arms around it. It’s, it’s something you can actually, you know, it’s obtainable. Yeah. So it’s not maybe one of those what we consider to be once in lifetime, even though in many states it is considered to be a once in lifetime tag. Montana, Wyoming, Colorado over Utah, we’ve covered those. Idaho, Nevada doesn’t have a non-resident option yet. It, they have ’em, they have big goats. Really tough drawing odds when they do allow us to do, to apply for organs an eight, $8 add-on fee. If you’re doing sheep, go ahead and do it, but don’t like go buy your $167 non-refundable hunting license to apply for goat, just for mountain goat. Although they got good goats and good hunts. You know, and so anyway, those are the options for mountain goat. Yeah.

01:08:58:29 –> 01:09:31:08
So Washington kinda the same thing. Don’t just start Washington for goat. Well established point system there. We have members draw every year up there. Most of them are residents because they, you know, invest their hunting license and their application fees are cheaper. They’ve been doing a long time. Yes. But not a no-brainer state to apply for. It’s, it’s just simply not bison. Well maybe just talk about that. The free ranging wild, you know, you know, true experience bison, you get a few states that do those, you know, the Arizona, you know, it seems like most of these all are in adjacent to parks and things

01:09:31:08 –> 01:09:41:08
Like that. It’s very frustrating to deal with the bison. Yeah. You know, I mean Utah has an amazing experience. Yes. Wild free ranging. I drew when I was 15 years old, you know, just

01:09:41:08 –> 01:09:42:10
Henry Mountains, right? Henry

01:09:42:16 –> 01:10:13:06
Mountains. Yeah. Back when you saw dust trails, you didn’t see bison, you saw dust trails. They were so wild. It was crazy. In fact, the hunters before me, you know, came up to us and they’re, and they didn’t kill ’em. They, they went home empty with no, with no buffalo in their truck. And so anyway, those were, you know, those were back in the days. Now they’re, you know, new for this year. Tons of opportunities for bison in Utah. They’re trying to thin ’em out. They’ve had a lot of expansion, which has worked great. Plus bison coming off the ute res there in the book Cliffs. We talked about that extensively in our magazine. That’s

01:10:13:06 –> 01:10:36:11
Right. We did no real issues with the bison in Utah. They’re mostly public land hunts. You’re not waiting for migration off the park. The WildHorse bench unit is the only ception to that. The reservation that concern. Yeah. But you moved to Arizona and and that’s a, that’s an issue. You’ve got bison that were established in House Rock Valley but but found and gravitated to Grand Canyon National Park and they that’s a refuge for ’em.

01:10:36:11 –> 01:10:51:07
Yeah, it’s been a refuge and they’ve learned that that’s a refuge. And so, you know, dry years, they’ll come out to water catchments outside of the park and so that’ll draw ’em out when it’s really dry and then they’re available to hunt. Right. So to speak. And and they’ll have wandering bike that come out anyway.

01:10:51:13 –> 01:10:57:00
Yeah. But it’s a, it’s a over non-resident, over $5,000 for a permit. Just

01:10:57:09 –> 01:10:59:29
What if you eat it? Yeah. I’m eating a four wheeler. Well,

01:11:00:07 –> 01:11:04:06
Yeah. And or a truck. Maybe you need a guide. You’re eating two, four wheelers, you know,

01:11:04:10 –> 01:11:06:01
So it’s just, yeah, it’s so, it’s

01:11:06:08 –> 01:11:06:14

01:11:06:29 –> 01:11:13:19
Very tough. You know, of course you can get two points in Arizona. It’s one of the, it’s the only place I know of. You can grab two points a year for, I still can’t for a big

01:11:13:25 –> 01:11:15:11
Head wrapped around that for two

01:11:15:11 –> 01:11:15:26

01:11:15:26 –> 01:11:17:02
Periods. Two application periods

01:11:18:01 –> 01:11:43:25
Was done. And there’s usually only one of them that has the long seasons that you would really want. Yeah. Some of the short seasons or some of the, they do have some other bison in unit five in different places in Arizona and some wildlife management areas stuff. But backup two, we’ll just talk about Montana and Wyoming kind of together in and around Yellowstone Park. It seems like we’ve always said that the Wyoming’s by far the best option and it still is. But this year was pretty

01:11:43:29 –> 01:12:07:07
Rough. This year was tough. We had buddies that hunted it and it was, you know, again, the bad weather. We talk about 2018. I’m glad 2000 eighteen’s gone. Yes. I’m glad it’s gone. And, and these bison hunters are as well. However, they’ve been smoking some the last week. A good friend of mine that Travis Osmond, he guides up there and he just sent me a picture of what he says. Crushed the state record. Yeah. Broken no way. Yeah. A

01:12:07:07 –> 01:12:19:20
Bunch of, bunch of brand new fresh snow and those, you’re, you’re dealing with bison that moving outta Yellowstone that moves south toward Jackson National Elk Refuge in that country there. So it’s, you’re watching borders and you’re watching ’em close. I mean very close.

01:12:19:21 –> 01:12:26:14
Good, good license app client of ours at McKenzie Sims. He smoked one too this week. Yeah. I mean everybody seems like everybody’s happy, happy right now

01:12:26:14 –> 01:12:30:25
Finally. But after a lot of stress and anxiety for three and a half months, brutal

01:12:30:25 –> 01:12:32:22
Season’s been brutal. And they do have long seasons. It’s

01:12:32:22 –> 01:12:35:17
Expensive tag to have too. It it’s another expensive one to eat

01:12:35:23 –> 01:12:36:06

01:12:36:18 –> 01:12:38:02
Over four grand for a non-resident.

01:12:38:03 –> 01:12:48:01
Yeah. It’s not cheap. And so, and they do have long seasons for that purpose. Just don’t know when they’re actually gonna make it out. And that’s the only way they can really manage ’em or keep ’em in check so to speak. So,

01:12:48:08 –> 01:13:05:26
And on the north end of the park and, and and west end you’ve got Montana does hunt them in the, you know, gardener and the West Yellowstone units too. Again, you’re hunting bison later in the year when they leave Yellowstone Park and drift out. They’re not always consistent hunts. They’re definitely more, more inconsistent on the Montana side of things For sure.

01:13:05:26 –> 01:13:19:07
Kind of what we consider are marginal opportunities. And so everybody, you know, when we have guys that ask us about ’em, we’re going, are you ready for a, you know, 10 minute explanation. That’s right. And then ’cause you gotta really decide, you know, if you’re willing to take that chance and get on the list. That’s right.

01:13:19:21 –> 01:13:37:25
That’s probably, you know, if you do, you know there are different places around the west, whether it be ranches or things like that. If you’re just concerned for a bison on the wall, there’s a lot, a lot of places you can do that that may may not be considered fair chase. They may be private herds on big ranches. I’m not saying they’re high fenced or things like that, but there’s other places that have bison

01:13:37:25 –> 01:13:52:17
But barb wire fences, you know, just normal barb wire fences and, and private herds and whatnot that you could go, you could even do, you know, maybe something on the Utes, I don’t know. Yeah. Yeah. We have conservation tags here in Utah as well. That guys purchase and whatnot. Adam loves guiding those.

01:13:53:07 –> 01:14:00:08
No, I don’t done a few but they’re, yeah. Lift up a bison, Bullhead bison with a cape and put that on your back. Yeah.

01:14:00:19 –> 01:14:02:26
Let alone dead a winter. So anyway,

01:14:03:05 –> 01:14:18:28
Anyway. But I don’t know, that probably wraps up the majority of the, of the species in terms of what we, what we kind of do where we think you could do it or should do it again. Some of ’em may maybe aren’t as high as maybe what’s on your list right now. But what other points do we have to, to

01:14:18:28 –> 01:14:27:28
Talk about? Well we need to, I mean we’ve been so long-winded but there are like blacktails cos deer, there’s obvious other things that we could talk about a little bit. But there’s

01:14:27:28 –> 01:14:37:10
A couple. Yeah, there’s, you know, you got the west coast and New Mexico and, and Arizona. So hor oh geez,

01:14:37:17 –> 01:14:38:04

01:14:38:07 –> 01:14:39:14
The two points. Chris. Chris

01:14:39:14 –> 01:14:40:11
We didn’t give you a mic

01:14:41:20 –> 01:14:43:26
Antelope. Okay. I’ve

01:14:43:26 –> 01:14:46:01
Gained 17 points on the state of Colorado.

01:14:46:01 –> 01:14:47:19
Worst Jason. And we’d like to know right here

01:14:47:22 –> 01:14:48:13
Now the worst state, the

01:14:48:13 –> 01:14:54:29
Union a what you’re gonna do with those when you’re, we’re all gonna know and we’ll announce it here live the year. Jason draws his antelope tag in Colorado,

01:14:55:00 –> 01:14:56:20
Wait for 10 years. So they purge. We’ll

01:14:56:20 –> 01:15:01:14
Have that, that that the hot take. The hot take. Mike

01:15:01:14 –> 01:15:13:06
Drawn. Oh we do apply for antelope, you know, across the west. You know Adam drew in Arizona. I’ve drawn an Arizona, killed my son. Had a Utah tag last year out of the expo. One of those $5 draw tags.

01:15:13:18 –> 01:15:16:01
Speaking of the ex expo, Jason. Yeah, we’ll be there. Yeah,

01:15:16:01 –> 01:15:35:23
We’re gonna be there. Booth number 2 7 4 4. February 14th to the 17th. We’re gonna be validating for tags up there anyway. Yeah, my kid did draw one of those and, and we killed a great antelope in less than two hours. He just doesn’t have that much time off school and so killed a great buck. Yeah, promise.

01:15:35:23 –> 01:15:36:13
Heavy bugger.

01:15:36:13 –> 01:15:59:02
Yeah, heavy sucker. So anyway, same thing. Nevada’s got some good antelope units that we applied for Wyoming’s the freaking Wyoming, you know, antelope capital of the world and offers tons of tags and easy draws and whatnot. So if you do want an antelope, apply for Wyoming, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada. And if non-residents just throw in for, you know, 10 bucks in Utah. Yeah. Maybe

01:15:59:02 –> 01:16:08:18
Just briefly, Jason, describe the big change in New Mexico. ’cause it’s kind of been a cluster to hunt the best places in the state. It’s kind of been a two step draw in the past. Now they’ve,

01:16:08:18 –> 01:16:51:26
New Mexico has huge monumental changes. Yes, we covered it in our magazine. Basically, you know, draw tag guys, rifle, draw tag guys, normal tags. I’m not talking mobility impaired youth. Normal guys have not been able to hunt public lands. Yeah, they’ve been assigned to private ranches. They’ve hunted the public lands on mobility impaired and youth tags and archery and archery. And so there was a lot of bucks and so these governor tags had it good they could go. And so there was a lot of bucks that were gaining age and there was some big bucks in New Mexico that’s changed. And with private land tags, they now, if you have permission on, on a particular ranch, you can walk in and get a tag. You don’t have, there is no quotas for private land. Landowner

01:16:51:27 –> 01:16:53:04
Can sell as many as they want. Landowner

01:16:53:04 –> 01:17:22:14
Can kill every antelope on his place. Okay. And so that’s gonna be interesting. There’s a lot of frustrated people that care about antelope and overall and we tease about not caring about, we do care about antelope. We, it’s a fun, they’re a fun critter to hunt. We consult on ’em every day. And so it is frustrating to see each individual ranch being able to manage however they want. Some landowners hate ’em, some want ’em whatever. And if you have neighboring ranches that have conflicting management strategies, what’s that gonna turn into? It’s

01:17:22:14 –> 01:17:22:22
Not gonna work.

01:17:22:28 –> 01:17:24:10
You can have a whole herd if

01:17:24:10 –> 01:17:24:23
He’s on the wrong

01:17:24:23 –> 01:17:43:12
Spot. Generally, you know, game or property of the state and the state needs to manage ’em and, and they’re just saying, nah, we’re not gonna deal with that. That’s for you. You see fit. Yeah. It’s a very backward way of thinking. You know with new governors, new directors coming, there’s just change. Yeah, change but I guess is prevalent in New Mexico this year looking

01:17:43:12 –> 01:17:52:17
At the bright side. And that’s all you can do I guess is now you can apply for a rifle hunt in a unit X or Y or Z and if you draw it, you can hunt anywhere in that unit, like

01:17:52:18 –> 01:17:53:24
A normal draw tech. How nice

01:17:53:27 –> 01:18:07:25
Is that? And then if you’ve got private land and you can secure permission, go hunt it there. But we’re probably gonna do antelope more often now I’m gonna, because New Mexico you can, I don’t wanna hunt unit X or Y and I wanna hunt for a big buck only or I just to not draw that’s,

01:18:07:28 –> 01:18:39:24
We used to apply, you know, for clusters of units down there now they’ve broke ’em up into individuals. So within our magazine we don’t have drawing odds, it’s they don’t have kill rates so to speak. It’s a whole new ballgame. They’ve wiped the slate slate clean and changed the entire program for antelope. And so it’ll be interesting how that comes about. We’re, we’re definitely gonna be applied. It’s on record. I’m applying for antelope New Mexico two or three years and the quality probably take it down. Quality may take a huge dive with the new management practices. So anyway, I don’t know, does that cover antelope?

01:18:39:27 –> 01:19:10:20
That does, we basically use it to supplement stuff like most people probably do. There’s a few people that are just antelope fanatics and we’ve covered the best states to do that in, if it makes sense for you to add it on in some of the states you’re already buying a license like Utah, Arizona, and Nevada, go ahead and do it for 10 or 15 bucks. So, but you know, Wyoming’s the place we all think of Montana even’s pretty easy to get antelope tags, especially Eastern Montana, 700 tags. You can get ’em pretty easy. But just fun, easy hunts. We don’t, we don’t, we fit ’em in now and then every five to, I don’t know, eight years. We don’t ’em that

01:19:10:20 –> 01:20:10:26
Often, but we research ’em like we like they’re freaking giant mule deer, elk. And so I’ve got so many thoughts going in like the New Mexico youth and all of these things. There’s a lot of these units that are given 45 youth tags and the, and the and five adult tags. And so the youth get preference mobility impaired in, in, in some cases get preference in the, especially in the past, not so much now, but there’s just, there’s just a lot of factors into why we listed the units we did within the magazine. A you gotta look at the public land available, a lot of that stuff in the northeast corner there wasn’t as much public land or very little but yet there’s a lot more tags and so it allows people opportunity hunts of course, you know, 15, 16, 17, 18, all of those units, you know, may have a lot more higher quality but when you dip down to five tags, you end up with one outfitter tag known, you know, which can be given out to a resident or non-resident. You get no non-resident tags. And so you’ll see that reflective in our tables at times when I dipped down to five total tags for normal applicants.

01:20:11:06 –> 01:20:15:13
There we go. Chris, did we do sufficient justice to antelope? Alright,

01:20:15:17 –> 01:20:15:25

01:20:15:25 –> 01:20:15:29

01:20:16:07 –> 01:20:25:17
He’s happy, he’s ecstatic. All right, keep the nod. I thought when he was holding, holding up, he was holding up twos in the air and I was thinking that two hours. No, I was thinking this podcast is two hours’

01:20:25:17 –> 01:20:48:26
A little long and so we’ll probably better better wrap it up Huge long. I know it’s a lot of it. Our thoughts, a lot of it’s rambling, it’s not structured. We’re bouncing all over the place. We’re trying to give you some ideas. Hopefully something we’ve talked about today gives you something to think about. Things like that. We’re not talking about, you know, dough antelope and cow elk or anything like that. You know, there’s a lot more you could cover, you could cover about

01:20:48:27 –> 01:21:14:17
Having said that, we do at times we do apply, not me. Okay. But we, some of our kids and whatnot do apply and we want, you know, have more opportunities so they wanna, you know, an analyst tags make sense in some cases. It’s just sometimes it’s hard. We’re always taught that you’re supposed to, you know, increase numbers and yada yada yada. And, and you know, female hunts didn’t, necess don’t seem to necessarily make sense, but at times it does. Well there’s

01:21:14:18 –> 01:21:28:29
Ano we’ve talked about so many of those opportunity things that we can get that we normally, somebody in our family shooting an elk every year. And Jason, your kids shot two of ’em last year. You don’t need Cal well crush. So Crush, crush me anyway. No freezer space. We got plenty of white little packages in our freezer,

01:21:29:26 –> 01:21:31:18
Lots of ’em. We need Instagram that

01:21:32:27 –> 01:21:35:16
We need to barbecue that at the office, have freezers

01:21:35:16 –> 01:21:36:12
Full of meat, invite

01:21:36:12 –> 01:21:44:29
The public in to have to sample Wild game as a introduction to hunting, come down into the Epic outdoors office, get the, get the smoker going.

01:21:45:03 –> 01:21:49:22
We need to open up some of those LaCorte meat packages, you know? Yes. All the summer sausages.

01:21:49:25 –> 01:21:50:07
Oh yeah,

01:21:50:20 –> 01:21:52:10
All that kind of stuff. So that’s lunchtime.

01:21:52:17 –> 01:21:52:24

01:21:53:09 –> 01:22:39:20
All right, well that’s about it, everybody there again, you know, our way isn’t the only way. There’s, there’s a ton of different strategies out there and Adam and I definitely consult on, you know, tons and tons of guys and develop strategies. But, but when we’re doing that, we do look at what your goals are and what we would do if we had your goals. And so I do feel like we do a good job of being objective and, and considering things from your perspective. If you want us to apply you, you know, we have a $500 max where, you know, it’s obviously state by state by state. Once you re reach 500, you know, everything else after, that’s no additional charge as far as our fees are concerned. And so it’s a great, it’s a great program. You know, just give us a holler Adam, and I’ll take time, we’ll get you a schedule lined out and we’ll get you applying and gaining points.

01:22:39:25 –> 01:23:32:10
So that time of year we, Jason talked about the Western Hunting Conservation Expo a bit ago. We’ll be there here. That is what, February 14th to 17th. During the Saturday of that event on February 16th, the full Curl Society social, which is basically just a big get together of sheep hunters, sheep enthusiasts, or sheep wannabes, all the above. And there’s gonna be 11 sheep hunts drawn and given away at that event. We be there, we’ve been a major sponsor there. We love supporting that. We like seeing people yell and stand on tables and get crazy when they win Sheep Punts. That is again on Saturday, February 16th. You can go online prior to [email protected], buy your tickets. There’s different packages there for Doll sheep, stone, sheep a a Rocky Mountain Bighorn Desert Bighorn, some of ’em. You have to be present to win some you don’t. There’s something for everybody. But we’ll see you there at the Folk Curl Society, at the Western Hunting Council.

01:23:32:14 –> 01:24:14:20
And we there and we, we sponsor them in, in a big way. So, you know, huge advocates of being able to have more opportunities that drawn tags. And this is kind of one of those things, especially even our, our own raffle raffle we’re to speak our membership drive here at Epic Outdoors. It honestly is probably some of the best odds there is. We we’re, you know, we’re, we’re very careful in in how we market that we don’t wanna be perceived as is. That that’s the only thing that matters in life. We’re, we’re an information service. That’s what matters in life, is that we’re the best at, at consulting for Western Big Game. And that’s where our focus is. However, we do need to have membership drives and, and it’s good for business and it creates an excitement and, and we’re excited about it. The drawing odds are gonna be amazing.

01:24:15:29 –> 01:24:45:14
And so anyway, just wanna throw a little plugin for that. You can go to epic outdoors.com, pick up some tickets and of course we’re giving away an Epic knife. It’s customized, customized with our logo on it from Outdoor Edge, the replaceable blades at great, you know, if you buy a $200 package or a $500 package and if you buy the five, we’re also working with Chest and Davis at Phone Scope. We appreciate him and his support. You can get a phone scope package, which we give you a gift certificate and you, and you go online and get that as well as a knife. $500

01:24:45:14 –> 01:24:48:11
Bill deal is the best deal. Yeah, I mean you get everything for

01:24:48:11 –> 01:24:59:08
That. So it’s pretty good. It’s just, and, and we’ve talked to guys, Adam, you and I have talked to guys and they say we gotta have at least one ticket and every sheep draw we can get. And that’s the way we look at things. We,

01:24:59:08 –> 01:25:33:20
We do it, obviously we don’t, can’t do our own draw, but when we go to the sheep show, we go to the Western hunting expo, we do some of the other state, you know, sheep foundation organizations that have a dollar sheep or stone sheep throw a ticket. They’re $40,000 hunts. And that’s what the one we’re giving away is. So these will, you can buy these tickets through February 28th. Anybody that joins our service before then will also be entered into a free doll sheet punt. So you can get infra doll sheet hunt just by spend a hundred dollars and join an epic outdoors service magazine service. If you wanna purchase additional tickets for the stone, sheep, brown, bear, deer, elk, antelope, cougar. You can do that. That’s up to you.

01:25:33:22 –> 01:25:56:10
And if you refer a guy, you’re tired of freaking giving him your passwords and letting him steal your magazine and and whatnot. Which a hundred bucks gets popular. A, we’re kind of tired of it. Yeah. B Anyway, we’re watching. Get him to join, give him a gift subscription, whatever you wanna do. And you’re gonna ticket day, ticket Christmas present for any of the hunts that you choose. Any of those six hunts that you choose. So anyway, it is a membership drive and, and All right, sounds good. Thanks.